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12:00 AM
not a real question lives on. SO will always have its junk drawer, it seems.
 
I really think that we need to have a big discussion explaining what sorts of questions we don't want, and then creating close reasons that address those specific types of questions, with a help page for each reason to give more information on why that question-type is bad, and how to improve it.
@MichaelPetrotta Amen. There shouldn't be ambiguous close reasons that are 'catch-alls' for questions people just don't like...
 
"Page Not Found"
Ah, wait, that was the giant question that everyone used to point new users to when they did something wrong
I remember reading about that.
(sorry, I'm pretty new)
 
@jmac: yeah. Sorry, not pointing to it seriously. That post's existence had a lot of problems.
But it tried, a bit, to be what you were asking about, an extremely comprehensive list of reasons why questions are closed (and downvoted, and mocked...)
 
I think that 'comprehensive' is probably the wrong word. Documentation should almost never be 'comprehensive'
(people don't read it if it's comprehensive)
 
12:10 AM
Its comprehensiveness is one reason that post didn't work.
 
It should be brief, direct, and provide the guidance the user expects. In the case of close reasons, it should explain to the user why their question was closed and how to fix it.
 
^ This
 
(It was also somewhat aggressive.)
 
I am about to entirely rewrite a CW post, and I always feel bad about doing that. Should I refrain in cases like that? (CW in question)
 
you're going to entirely re-write one of shog9's cws?
 
12:17 AM
Yep.
 
what exactly is wrong with the post in its current form to warrant completely re-writing it?
 
IMHO, the biggest problems right now are that I spend too much time on titles and not enough on code... And, let's face it, it's wordy as all get-out. It's CW, so if you can fix something just do it.Shog9 2 days ago
 
and if it needs such extensive changes would it not be better to just post your own answer?
 
That's what I did here and was told to include some of that stuff in the other CW answer:
There's some good stuff here, particularly the introduction. Can you perhaps edit Andrew Thompson's answer (now accepted) so that I can integrate these into the live helpcenter page? — Shog9 7 hours ago
Just trying to save headaches of combining answers later. People can rollback or re-edit in parts or wholes of the original if merited.
 
well, if you can improve the content then go for it
that's kinda why we all have access to edit after gaining the privilege
 
12:21 AM
Yeah, but there are plenty of issues with editing other people's stuff.
 
only if you make radical changes to the underlying meaning of the post
 
CW is supposed to make that less of an issue, but people are oddly possessive sometimes, and especially when you are undoing the work of a Dev, it becomes marginally more complicated. But I follow the Wikipedia "Ignore All Rules" mantra.
 
What Flyk just said, and Shog did invite folks to do it.
 
The post in question has already received several reasonably large edits from others
If each edit you want to make feels like an improvement to you, and doesn't change the actual meaning of the post, then make it
if it's additional contributions that didn't already exist, are on topic with the content of the post and don't contradict something that's already in the post, then add it
 
It's too long. That's the issue. Incremental edits are great and all, but distilling the wisdom into a 600 calorie meal is important too.
 
12:26 AM
cutting a bunch of information out is probably not a good idea
I agree with "short and punchy" but if a post needs to be 10,000 characters to relay the information then it needs to be 10,000 characters
 
Eh. It's what the author, Shog, asked for. Make an attempt. There's always rollback.
 
Yeah, it'll be done in about 5, and then you can critique as needed.
 
Hey anyone got a few spam flags to spare? Two posts left and the last moderator just went to bed.
Make that 3.
 
post 'em if you got 'em.
 
12:31 AM
poof.
 
Gone.
 
Thanks guys :)
 
Welcome.
 
Seems like required registration has been turned on. I hope that slows them down.
 
@Seth You mean can't be just a cookie login?
 
12:32 AM
@hichris123 As of like 5 minutes ago, yes
 
Okay, some people are just really bored.
 
@Seth nope, there's still "Post as a guest" option
 
Wonder why I don't get it..
 
@Seth try incognito mode
 
You would not believe what SO went though in early 2013, at the hands of someone bored.
 
12:34 AM
@MichaelPetrotta what?
 
@ShadowWizard: referencing hichris123 "Okay, some people are just really bored."
I will not utter his name.
Initials are SK.
 
What happened?
 
Very dedicated nutter spammer. Good at it too, hopped VPNs a lot.
I saw a few hundred accounts. I'd estimate a few thousand total.
 
I really don't get how people can be that bored.
 
He was/is mentally ill.
 
12:37 AM
@ShadowWizard That's what I'm using..
 
You mean the master of sock puppets who created 12 accounts, boosted them all to 200+ rep and trolled the hot questions list?
 
No. His accounts typically didn't get past three heavily-downvoted questions.
 
@Seth so that's weird indeed! try different browser?
 
Hey, they send me a personal message
Wasn't that nice.
 
:P
Linky? So I can flag
 
12:38 AM
Gone already..
 
Ah.
 
@MichaelPetrotta oh, missed that then.
 
0
Q: Thank StackOverflow

JamesIs there a way to send a thank message to StackOverflow aside from sending an email? I want to thank StackOverflow for being an awesome live QA site. It helps people a lot.

 
@jmac They were never meant to be perfect and static forever, so tweaks over time are normal. They are driven by the very thing you're asking for - identifying which questions we don't want and how the existing close reasons are or aren't serving that.
 
Feel free to review my edit (dropped it from 1000 words to 750 give or take):
13
Q: What guidance should we give people asking Unclear questions on Stack Overflow?

Shog9"Unclear what you're asking" now links to a Stack Overflow-specific page in the Help Center. I've populated this with guidance that I've found helpful when responding to folks who've hit the quality-ban... But it could use some love. Please edit or comment on the answer below if you can think o...

 
12:40 AM
That's what I get..
 
I get it too.
 
So how do they keep creating unregistered users?
 
998 -> 775 words. Gettin' there...
 
@AnnaLear Yeah, but it seems like it's more of an iterative process when that may leave some gaps. Like making 'unclear' turn in to a catch-all (which is pretty unclear to me personally)
 
@jmac It doesn't seem like a catch-all to me.
 
12:42 AM
@Seth you don't need to register to answer...
 
@Shog9 Yeah, I took a torch to most of the bullet points. They will probably return with a vengeance, but I was stricken with powerpointphobia.
 
@Shog9 Oh
 
(Sorry, gotta run. Dinner time.)
 
@AnnaLear I think I should probably wrap my thoughts in to a separate meta post. Likely the best course of action (it'll be easier for you to read, review, and comment on too)
 
@jmac Sounds good.
 
12:43 AM
@Seth right, but you can post answers without a registered account. Oh, shog beat me to it. :)
 
Me is getting very close to 2k on SO. Yay!
 
@jmac Not happy with the title guidance as it stands though. EVERYONE gets this wrong; you have to spell it out.
 
@ShadowWizard Yeah :)
What a ripoff.. I was hoping it would stop or at least slow them
 
@Seth you're assuming it's not slowing them...
 
@Shog9 Would you IP ban?
 
12:45 AM
6 blocked in the last 10 minutes
 
@Shog9 I was torn on that. On one hand lots of people have the forum mindset of posting titles like, [URGENT] Help!!!!, but on the other hand if people make a good search for the problem they're facing and turn that search phrase in to a title it should work
 
@Shog9 It isn't, they've just taken to answering only.
 
@hichris123 If there was only 1 IP - or block - involved, that would've already happened.
 
@Shog9 Oh, it's more than one. Can you block posts starting with what they use? Or is that two censorshipy?
 
In an ideal world what I'd do is create an algorithm to categorize users in to, "Forum denizens", "New to SO", and "Rational Human Bean" and then create three tiers of help designed specifically to each group.
 
12:47 AM
Not sure that'd h3lp, @hichris123 - I can see some pr0bl3ms with it.
 
@hichris123 they're being blocked.
 
@Shog9 The posts? Or the users?
@MichaelPetrotta True, but helps a bit.
 
@hichris123 the posts
 
I'm a strong proponent in not writing to cover the lowest common denominator, because the lowest common denominator is the least likely to actually read the help. You target the people and the help to the people most likely to actually read (and heed) the advice you provide.
 
Figure that every time a post gets flagged and the author destroyed, several more are blocked. The quicker the post gets destroyed, the fewer follow-ups are allowed.
 
12:49 AM
I'm a strong proponent in not writing to cover the lowest common denominator, because the lowest common denominator is the least likely to actually read the help. You target the people and the help to the people most likely to actually read (and heed) the advice you provide.
 
So you IP ban when the author is destroyed? @Shog9
 
@jmac I'm saying even folks who can and do formulate a reasonable question otherwise tend to write terrible titles.
@hichris123 The system automatically blocks based on flags
 
The system seems smarter than I give it credit for. :P
 
Well thank you for your work @Shog9
They've stopped for now.
 
@Shog9 I guess I need to spend more time reading titles (I only frequent pretty quiet tags where I actually read the questions, so titles may not get the attention they deserve during my trips to SO proper)
 
12:51 AM
One of them did say that though, don't know if it has merit or not.
 
@Seth 9 answers to this blocked in the past 10 minutes
all automatically
 
Nope, still going, @Seth.
 
He said it again: i.imgur.com/fnf5eo2.png
@Shog9 Wow. So it is semi working. That's great.
 
Got askubuntu open to the top questions page. Watching. Not obsessive at all!
 
@MichaelPetrotta Thank you!
 
12:59 AM
:)
 
They keep talking to us in the comments. I think they're watching our chat. and we've switched rooms a lot so they couldn't do that :-/
 
@MichaelPetrotta I liked "Not a Real Question". Folks thought it was silly, but... I've seen too many posts where the asker forgot to actually ask a question.
 
proves he watching.
 
There is a traitor among us. :P
 
1:05 AM
It needs to exist, in some form, @Shog9. But it's more likely to be abused than other close reasons, especially now that minimal understanding is gone.
 
@Shog9 Hey Shog, do you think that maybe it would be helpful to have a that maps close reasons to the types of question they are supposed to close?
 
Here's SO spam:
-4
Q: How to see!!!Dallas Stars at New Jersey Devils?

Rajib HossainW.a.t.c.h Dallas Stars vs New Jersey Devils L.i.v.e S.t.r.e.a.m.i.n.g N.h.l O.n.l.i.n.e F.r.e.e G.a.m.e 2014 Wpoh W.a.t.c.h Dallas Stars vs New Jersey Devils L.i.v.e S.t.r.e.a.m.i.n.g N.h.l O.n.l.i.n.e F.r.e.e G.a.m.e 2014 Wpoh W.a.t.c.h Dallas Stars vs New Jersey Devils L.i.v.e S.t.r.e.a.m.i.n.g...

 
"This question is crap. It must be closed. But it doesn't fit in any other close reason..."
 
:shrug:
 
-7 without being deleted means that people don't understand flags.
 
1:07 AM
@MichaelPetrotta Beats, "this question is great, but it matches a close reason so it must be closed"
4
 
That is... true... @Shog9
 
I think that any question that:

1. Isn't a duplicate
2. Explains the problem
3. Provides info to reproduce it

Shouldn't be closed. If it's poorly asked it should just be downvoted, no? I think part of the issue is that people want to close questions that are awful out of principle, when a downvote may be the more appropriate response....
 
I'm not actually that concerned about that aspect. I'm more concerned about drama that might arise from questions (deservedly) closed as unclear, and the reasons for the closure not being particularly clear, from the on-page blurb.
@jmac: Why is my furnace making this noise? :)
 
@MichaelPetrotta I've come to the sad realization that it is impossible to succinctly and accurately define "crap question". Hence the current 700-1000 word page.
 
@MichaelPetrotta Touche. That relates to programming should be added, and that is 'scoped appropriately' though that is a horrible thing to say as it means absolutely nothing as a closed reason to the person reading it.
 
1:12 AM
@Shog9: I get that.
 
Do you think there is truth to his "exploit" tales?
 
@Seth sure
Seems like a real upstanding, trustworthy sort of guy
You know, exactly the sort who would restrain himself from abusing an exploit
btw, @Seth
 
in ups on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 9 mins ago, by Thomas W.
@Seth he could private this room
 
If you are speaking in sarcasm, I agree.
 
1:16 AM
Tell Thomas to not be so paranoid
 
Okay lol.
 
2:24 AM
Since when have the off-topic close reasons changed to exclude "must demonstrate a minimal understanding"?
 
@arshajii Today.
 
Oh I see
 
23
Q: Close Vote options no longer include option for "must include code" and "must show minimal understanding"

m59What happened to the close vote option for posts that describe an error or unexpected result but don't include the relevant code or any code!? This is on of the two most popular I use.. What am I supposed to do about questions like this now!? I just also noticed "must show minimal understanding"...

 
Ah, thank you very much.
 
It is spread throughout several different places, and is kind of raising people's hackles at the moment it would seem.
 
2:28 AM
I'm not surprised -- it was likely the most used close reason.
 
Here is the discussion it all stemmed from:
48
Q: Improving "demonstrate a minimal understanding"

DevolusI was using the reason demonstrate a minimal understanding myself quite frequently, but the more I review, the more I have doubts about it and I think this reason can either be dropped entirely or at least rephrased, so I started to use problems with code you've written must describe the specific...

 
3:06 AM
Does anyone else think that Emmett (Stack Exchange dev) looks like Justin Long (actor)?
These are the important things we should be talking about in this chatroom.
Pfft. Close reasons.
 
> This topic is Brown Approved.
 
Oh. Former SE dev.
 
3:22 AM
is someone up for giving the fifth close vote? stackoverflow.com/questions/21032985/…
 
3:44 AM
(actually is SO user age, but meh)
 
Ooh, I'm in that really tall one.
 
Hehe
 
@Undo Can I file a pluralization bug? By leaving off the "s" you are implying that every person's age is in an interval of 10.
 
sigh
@animuson No.
 
Go go 2σ!
 
3:47 AM
(I got my hands on the SO data dump today, so this won't be the last graph you see :P)
 
@Undo I have the database on my external but no MySQL to go with it. :P
 
@hichris123 Follow my tutorial!
I wrote the thing for a reason :P
 
Accept my bug report!
 
@animuson No!
I don't have a bluedgoner hired yet.
 
@Undo Windows, remember?
 
3:51 AM
two close votes needed here: stackoverflow.com/questions/21021988/…
 
@hichris123 Should be the same but different.
@LaszloPapp Done
 
Also, bug report: it's a histogram so the bars should be together and should Aldo say the limits, like 20-29.
@Undo Maybe it'll work...
 
It should...
No idea, though.
 
Bug report: the columns in that graph are the wrong color.
 
@Undo: thanks
 
3:52 AM
(when in doubt, open the logs and google whatever evil thing is printed there)
 
Accept my bug report, @Undo!
 
does on-hold count as unanswered in the stats?
 
@hichris123 Oh dear, you have one too?
@LaszloPapp I don't think so.
 
@Undo It starts with bug Report, and @jadarnel27 has one too...
 
status-declined
and
status-declined
Better?
 
3:54 AM
Where's meta.erwaysoftware.com when you need it?
 
status-youre-a-ruthless-dictator
 
Correct!
 
He would totally have a separate tag for undoing changes that incorporated new bugs into the system...
status-undone
 
sigh
I have thought about building an SE clone, though, just for fun.
 
@Undo We need a meta.
We demand it.
 
3:56 AM
@hichris123 We do...
 
I don't like this new Google feature where random people on Google+ can email me.
2
That's...dumb.
 
looks up jadarnel's email address on G+
@hichris123 We must build ourselves a meta.
 
@jadarnel27 It's good for me so I can email people who don't respond to my Hangout message.
 
The very first thing I did when I got that email was opt out haha.
 
Google's how to build a meta
 
3:58 AM
In PHP!
And MySQL
@hichris123 And then you and me could carry diamonds and apply big red tags!
Yay for status tags!
 
plzgivemetehmetaz
 
Hm, I haven't used G+ in ages.
Ewww my dad added me to his circles on there? How can I delete this?
 
seems like people are asking very poor questions today where I happen to be. Almost any of them can closed.
 
Circles are weird. They should have used hexagons on G+.
 
4:02 AM
@Laszlo There's one that was just solved with a typo, MySQL and php, you can close that one too!
 
David Egger's book The Circle freaked me out more than that mostly mediocre story should have.
 
@hichris123: eh?
 
0
Q: Error when using a function to display comments from a database

coolpupI've successfully created a form that puts data from a comment box into my database. I'm just having trouble displaying the comments back now. I get the error "Notice: Undefined variable: display_comments in /admin3/includes/functions.php on line 95. Database query failed." I'm not sure how to de...

@Laszlo ^
 
I have some urgent URL rewriting codez that need to be...written. Can haz teh?
 
@hichris123: I would not vote for closing that question.
 
4:04 AM
I swear this was working when I left it a few months ago, and now it's broken.
 
first, it is an OK question to me, second, it seems out of my expertise looking at the tags, and despite many people do not care about that, I will not comment on things I am not sure about, or I do not have the expertise with. :)
 
@Laszlo You're right, also I'm not sure if it really solved the problem.
 
Haha, wow.
I noticed that Emmett looks like Justin Long a year and a half ago.
Jul 13 '12 at 5:06, by jadarnel27
Looking at the team page gifs again, I can't help but notice that Emmett looks like the guy from Accepted.
 
Joe
If emmett looks like Justin Long, then that means by the commutative property, he looks like Steve Jobs, right?
no, wait, that wasn't long
nevermind
too late!
 
It was a nice attempt.
 
4:13 AM
And if you can do all that with the commutative property, imagine what you could do with the distributive property!
 
Joe
Lol
Noah Wyle, there we go
does SE/SO have a Noah Wyle lookalike? :)
 
Noah Wyle?
 
Joe
Steve Jobs reportedly thought he was a good look-alike
 
Yeah, I know the movie, I just found it funny you chose someone who played Steve Job in 1998 when there was a movie last year that portrayed him that I assumed would come to mind first.
 
Seriously, though. This URL rewriting thing is going to make me have to learn something anything about regular expressions.
And I won't stand for it.
 
4:19 AM
@jadarnel27 You should totally drop that and try jquery.
 
@jmac I might just do that.
 
Joe
@jmac I'm old, I guess?
 
@arshajii Your profile picture is disconcerting.
 
Plzgivemetehurlz?
 
@Joe I don't know, are you?
 
Joe
4:20 AM
@jadarnel27 if you're learning regex, it needs to be s/something/anything/ ;)
 
I hate you auto-correct.
 
Joe
@jmac According to that graph above, apparently so... i'm not in the tall line anyway ;)
and a movie from 1998 was during college, while for an awful lot of users here it seems to have been during pre-school ;)
 
@Joe I think that chart is just a suggestion. And should be read sideways. 10 users who are 10k years old. 20 users who are 170k years old. 30 users who are 75k years old. etc.
There was a year before 2000?!
 
Joe
@jmac well, then I'm a spring chicken :)
 
@Joe Haha, well put!
I copy / pasted something out of a forum that looked related, and it's sort of working now. So I'm going to...move on for the moment.
 
4:23 AM
In Japan they don't use the normal western calendar. They use the emperor's name and the year of his reign. So almost everyone I know was born in the Showa era, but now that we're in the 26th year of Heisei, it's odd thinking that people who are old enough to drink were born in a totally different era.
 
Joe
There is still an emperor?
 
Powerpoint, why do you taunt me so? You allow me to merge shapes, but not if they are an image! I can make an image the background of a shape, but again you taunt me! I can group a bunch of shapes, add the background, and it works as planned, but then when I ungroup you you apply the image individually to each!
 
Joe
I thought he went away post-WWII
 
He said he wasn't a God post-WWII.
He still exists.
 
Joe
Ah
 
4:26 AM
(well, that one doesn't, he died 26 years ago)
The current emperor is his son. And he is getting old, but he has a grandson now, which was a very good thing everyone thought since they weren't so keen on a female emperor.
 
Joe
gotcha
 
Fun fact of the day: The Japanese emperor is not allowed to vote.
(that seems to be the case in England too)
 
Joe
Sounds reasonable to me
 
4:41 AM
Wouldn't be fair. Like mods', their votes are binding.
 
It's killing me that the question isn't getting more traction; I'm so close to the solution but I can't figure out that one line (see comments). Any C# buffs awake?
3
Q: Using Reflection.Emit to implement generic interface

anthony-arnoldI'm using Reflection.Emit to define a new type, and I'd like the type to implement IComparable(T), where T would be the newly defined type. class DefinedType : IComparable<DefinedType> { //... } It seems to me like I have a chicken-and-egg problem. As a fallback, I can always just implement ...

 
2,924 reputation on meta. So close to close vote privileges. Better vote stuff down so I don't get stuck being asked to be responsible.
 
Joe
5:01 AM
Be careful you don't serially vote or you might get the rep back by mistake!
I'll be happy when meta.so exists as a real site
confused me forever when I couldn't click on votes to see the up/down
since it's separate rep from regular SO
 
5:19 AM
Part of me wonders if my top-voted question is now irrelevant with the nuking of the "minimal understanding" close reason
 
I finally figured out that regex thing. But I'm not happy about it. And it was no thanks to you bums here in the Tavern.
 
Joe
s/bums/helpful friends/
 
Hahah
 
Joe
and I see no requests for help here :p
jesus, we have a lot of viewers
given a question asked 10 hours ago has an answer with a score of +84
and it's not even a particularly good or interesting question
 
My whining is an implicit request for help, @Joe. Isn't that obvious? =)
 
Joe
5:25 AM
26
Q: What's this =! operator?

m0nhawkI was surprised by this code: if (a =! b) { // let it be on false ... } But a is never assigned by a value. What's this operator about?

@jadarnel27 "Unclear what you're asking
Please clarify your specific problem or add additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking. See the How to Ask page for help clarifying this question."
 
Hiyo!
Also: s/c++ viewers/hot question clickers
It doesn't have the "posted on reddit" number of views, so those votes must be coming from people clicking through the "hot network questions" list.
 
Joe
ahh
and that's how I know it's time for bed...
given that's how I got to the question
just fogot
rforgot*
can't believe the 32 bit 100000000000000 question is still top on that list
that is a question that, while understandable for a novice computer user etc., is really fairly simple
why a million users or whatever decided to be excited about it I have no idea
 
Heh, I can relate (to needing to go to bed).
I sort of halfway read that other question you mentioned.
 
5:53 AM
How do you make the red?
 
Here in chat, you mean?
 
@jmac [status-anything] will turn red if it's by itself (that is, under onebox conditions).
 
Yes, here in chat works, I assumed it works the same on SO as well.
status-testing
Well that is odd.
 
It's not odd. It's fancy.
 
Oh, it doesn't actually link to anything, it's totally different from the [tag:whatever] thing.
 
5:55 AM
Yeah, it's just an "easter egg."
 
@jadarnel27 Brown is fancy. This is a reddish brown. Less fancy.
 
status-just-for-fun
 
Truth. That's why some mustards are fancy as well.
 
"What if other people don't see the same color brown as I do? We could all be looking at the same brown, but be seeing different browns!"
 
@jmac That's terrifying.
It also reminds me of an xkcd.
Ah, this one.
 
5:57 AM
Hey. Go deep enough into physics, and you realise that brown only exists because we observe it. If we don't look at it, it isn't there...
 
If I go any deeper into physics than actually existing in reality, I might never come out.
 
@michaelb958 So Schrödinger's cat is not actually brown?
 
@jadarnel27 What pole indeed. That is clearly a pedestal...
 
status-EEEEK
 
I don't like that XKCD. You can clearly see the graph paper lines in the background. This guy must give his little brother improper drawing paper, like @TimPost does with his daughter.
 
5:59 AM
@animuson Huh. I've always thought of it as a power line pole when I looked at it.
 

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