Gaming

Arda Xi

6:18 PM

@GraceNote you?

Grace Note

I'd rather be the 3rd vote

Arda Xi

then go ahead :)

Gaming Meta

0

Q: Idea: Make Me A Sammich Video Contest

Monthly, one of us first-page users asks (in a CW question) the community to make and upload on YouTube a video of something (not excessively) challenging and entertaining to watch (e.g., "finish Go Beryllium" or "score 500,000 or more in 15 minutes of Dwarfs! arcade mode" or "Get an OCD in the B...

Grace Note

I don't understand what that has to do with sammiches

Mads Elvheim

:D

badp

6:32 PM

btw is it me or reCaptcha is running out of samples to scan?

I've had fairly weird captchas as of late

like "3 1/2"

alexanderpas

they're samples the computer fails to read.

recaptcha gives you one known sample and one unknown sample, which both failed OCR.

badp

I know

Grace Note

How can we start to convince people that "useful to gamers" is not a sole binding metric that allows a question to belong on the site?

badp

I'm just saying reCaptcha's running out of "sane" samples

alexanderpas

how to determine sane samples?

badp

6:36 PM

"apple" as opposed to "3 1/2"

or segments of fancily formatted (then distorted) titles

Grace Note

45

Q: Impossible Captcha with non-keyboard characters

Am I a human? Yes. Can I type phi off the top of my head? No.

discussion captcha wtf

I particularly like Bill and mmyers' examples

badp

wait a second -- why is MSO reuploading my files to imgur?

Grace Note

Are you uploading it through the image uploader?

badp

oh, because I used ctrl-g. Silly thing.

I pressed Ctrl-G, chose "From the web", pasted dl.dropbox.com/u/1164414/SO/recaptcha.png and hit Insert.

Next time I'm using the link tool then hand-adding the exclamation point.

I guess SO does this to help people against anti-hotlink measures.

Mana

@GraceNote: What's wrong with seeding questions?

badp

6:47 PM

Asking 15 questions, one equal to the other except for a word, is just cheap.

Grace Note

@Mana It reflects poorly and you regret it in the future

Plus what @badp said.

Mana

Oh okay.

I dunno, it's just...I feel like we kind of need more people asking more questions on topics other than DF and SC2

Grace Note

A question should reflect something you actually need an answer to. Not a problem you know exists with an answer that you couldn't care less for

badp

See the questions we used to have, "Levelling Up Guide for Paladins", "Levelling Up Guide for Necromancers", "Levelling Up Guide for Internet Trolls", ... (and then 12 more)

Grace Note

Oh, we need more non-SC2 and non-DF questions, definitely. But we don't need them seeded

badp

6:49 PM

It really looks horrible on the homepage.

Grace Note

I like the homework assignment tzenes came up with, one day that I wasn't here

Arda Xi

@GraceNote you can delete the Hidden Features question now, it has 2 votes

Mana

Huh? I didn't mean stuff like that @badp

Grace Note

@Arda I'm actually going to hold back

badp

I guess deletion is undoable?

Grace Note

6:50 PM

Yes, it is

badp

Then it really isn't deletion!!

Grace Note

Takes 3 10k votes

badp

More like "Hiding"

Grace Note

When you get the 10k tools, good luck finding any questions that weren't recently deleted or deleted by the owner

It basically is hiding, yes. So for all intents and purposes, it is deleted.

badp

Deleted question show up on a 10k mod's homepage?

Ugh.

Grace Note

6:53 PM

No, they don't

badp

I'll keep that in mind.

Grace Note

Deleted questions are only available if you -
1. Know the URL
2. Find it through the "Deleted Questions" list that only contains questions recently deleted by someone besides the author

badp

Oh, I "see".

No pagination there.

Grace Note

Correct. You can go back as far as 30 days, and there's only one page of them

alexanderpas

@badp I "don't see" what you did there...

Grace Note

6:57 PM

Moderators technically can see all deleted posts, but only through the painstaking process of looking at every user's profile

badp

I don't actually have access to the 10k tools

so I can't see the tools.

Grace Note

41

A: What are the moderation tools available to high-reputation users?

It's mostly just lists. I just recently became a member of the +10k club. Allow me to enumerate all of the views available. Each view is found in one of four categories: links, stats, close and delete. When you click on the tools option in the header, stats is the first category opened. It conta...

That's the overview.

Gaming

0

Q: Is there a way to save more replays in your history in StarCraft II?

Is there a way to save more replays in your history in StarCraft II? in beta you could save WAY more then the 10 that it allows you to save now, is there an option or a registry value that will allow me to save way more then the 10 they let you.

starcraft-2 replay

badp

@GraceNote SPOILERS!

From evil Weblog of all evil persons

Argh! Go Beryllium's leaderboard does not post highscores registered when you are offline

so I need to beat my high score of 369 (59th best score ever?) to get on the leaderboard at all :(

Macha

7:32 PM

I'm 21 rep away from 2k :)

Just when there is no questions to answer :(

badp

There is never any question to answer :(

ASK!

Macha

How should we tag Command and Conquer: Generals: Zero Hour?

badp

Shit, you just did.

Macha

I settled for cnc-zero-hour because zero hour is also a starcraft map.

And command-and-conquer-generals-zero-hour is a bit long.

Mads Elvheim

Macha: CnCGZH :D

badp

7:39 PM

What reasons did Jeff give against 26+ letter long tags?

except maybe layout issues

Macha

I don't know.

He trimmed game-rec though

Grace Note

"tag length limit is written in stone and will never change. [...]" – Jeff Atwood♦ Jul 16 at 8:20

badp

/o\

Gaming

1

Q: In Command and Conquer Generals: Zero Hour, what tactics can I use for China Infantry and GLA Demolition generals?

I play Command and Conquer: Generals: Zero Hour a lot with friends of mine, and none of us ever pick China Infantry or GLA Demolition generals. They just seem relatively useless compared to the other generals. Is the game unbalanced, or are the strategies needed for these generals just not match...

real-time-strategy command-and-conquer cnc-zero-hour cnc-generals

alexanderpas

you want the full name instead of [mukashi-mukashi-tokoro] in a tag?

Grace Note

7:42 PM

If we had 26, we could at least fit [mukashi-mukashi-aru-tokoro] and I wouldn't even argue anymore

Macha

Odd seeing two diamonds in a "closed by" section.

(It's an old question)

badp

I'm thinking of doing something along the lines of a [goo-gl-pxab] tag

except we can't do that, url shorteners are case sensitive :(

alexanderpas

> The spoiler tag has no wiki, would you like to help us create it?

badp

(okay, I'm not entirely serious here)

alexanderpas

also, why is [spoilers] still not a synonym of [spoiler] (fix it here)

Arda Xi

7:47 PM

@badp make your own... t-ag-caseinsensitive

t.ag might be available

alexanderpas

it isn't.

Arda Xi

I don't think it's even valid

alexanderpas

.ag

.ag is the Internet country code top-level domain (ccTLD) for Antigua and Barbuda. Second and third level registrations Registrations can be made at the second level directly beneath .ag, or at the third level beneath .com.ag, .org.ag, .net.ag, .co.ag, or .nom.ag. There are no restrictions on who can register. Other meanings Aktiengesellschaft (; abbreviated AG) is a German term that refers to a corporation that is limited by shares, i.e. owned by shareholders, and may be traded on a stock market. The term is used in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. In addition to its original...

Arda Xi

the tld is

but I meant the length of the domain itself

Macha

One letter domains generally aren't.

Arda Xi

7:50 PM

j.mp is

Macha

Twitter cheated with t.co

Single-letter second-level domain

Single-letter second-level domains are domain names in which the second-level domain consists of only one letter, such as x.com. In 1993, the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) explicitly reserved all single-letter and single-digit second-level domain names in the top-level domains com, net, and org, and grandfathered those that had already been assigned. In December 2005, ICANN considered auctioning these domains. Active single-letter domains On December 1, 1993, the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) explicitly reserved the remaining single-letter and single-digit domain...

alexanderpas

there are only 26 domains possible with a single letter inside a tld

> national registrars may decide whether to allow single-letter domains or not.

badp

I loved http://to/ while it lasted

It broke the internet so much.

40

Q: How the heck is http://to./ a valid domain name?

Apparently it's a URL shortener. It resolves just fine in Chrome and Firefox. How is this a valid top-level domain? Update: for the people saying it's browser shenanigans, why is it that: http://com./ does not take me to: http://www.com/? And, do browsers ever send you a response from some plac...

dns domain url

If you still want internet breaking goodness, there's still ai., though

alexanderpas

8:08 PM

I just wish they would open up the tld

if we wanted to go to ebay, we simply typed http://ebay/

badp

uh, what modern browser doesn't do that?

why do http://ebay/ when you could do ebay://./

alexanderpas

because ebay is not a protocol, it is a website.

badp

why do http://to./blah when you could do to://blah/

Well, that ebay is the only ebay you want to have... :P

Gaming

1

Q: What are some strategies that use the Raven in Starcraft 2?

I've seen several mentions of Ravens and how useful they are in various other Starcraft 2 questions, but I haven't been able to figure out a good way to use them in multiplayer matches. Clearly I'm missing an important element. What are some strategies (especially offensive strategies) that use...

starcraft-2

alexanderpas

altrough an ebay:// protocol would be nifty GET ebay://746553432 -- BID ebay://746553432 22USD -- BUY ebay://746553432 (but it would be abused so hard!)

Arda Xi

8:15 PM

@alexanderpas That's just a RESTful API...

except over an eBay Transfer Protocol

alexanderpas

@ArdaXi as it should be.

Arda Xi

@alexanderpas it's not technically RESTful though since it doesn't use actual HTTP methods

alexanderpas

@ArdaXi no, it uses actual ebay methods ;)

Gaming

8:35 PM

0

Q: What are the keys to earn Gold on Opening Gambit?

I'm having trouble getting past Silver on Opening Gambit, the challenge mission where you must produce 30 Marines, 8 Siege Tanks, and 8 Ghosts within 14 minutes (for Gold). The best I've been able to do so far is to finish with 2:23 on the timer, which is 1:37 short of Gold. Typically I haven't...

starcraft-2

Arda Xi

so... what should be on spoiler's tag wiki

Grace Note

8:54 PM

I find it more humorous that no one has bothered with the SC2 tag wiki

badp

9:05 PM

Gaming coverage volume over time.

Okay, nvm, that's just twitter

lol

Terminé Starcraft 2. Soy libre! Soy li.. qué es esto? multiplayer?

Tweeted by freddier on August 28, 2010 at 5:10 PM

In other news, if you weren't on Tavern:

in The Tavern (General), 59 mins ago, by balpha

okay, through the magic of source control, here are some pictures of what the chat looked like in the early days of development:

Macha

Pictures are?

badp

Click through to see the transcript

FallenAngelEyes

Evening all

Grace Note

Evenin', @Fallen

Arda Xi

9:23 PM

@badp is it bad that I kinda prefer that last one over what we have now?

Macha

So do I actually

badp

I think this is easier on the eye

less css 3, more maturity

Arda Xi

but.. I like my chat immature

alexanderpas

I like my chat mature, more violence that way... but just matured, so it looks the best, aged too much is just too much.

Arda Xi

@alexanderpas Hence this > IRC

Macha

9:41 PM

I'm off, bye all

FallenAngelEyes

night Macha

Arda Xi

Sometimes I'm just caught in a terribly grip of perspective regarding game-rec: "They're just questions, someone wants answers to them. What the hell is wrong with us?"

Fortunately, this subsides quickly.

Gaming

9:59 PM

0

Q: Landed in a hacked modern warfare 2 game. Now my rank is 70 and I didn't want it to be. Can I undo it?

I ended up in a hacked server. One of the hacks was - if you die by your own hand (such as falling off a skyscraper in my case) your rank (at your current prestige level) becomes 70. While this is advantagous in that it partially unlocked things I wanted (ninja pro, claymores) so that I could ea...

pc modern-warfare-2

alexanderpas

@ArdaXi thanks for fixing my bad english.

Arda Xi

@alexanderpas no problem :)

did I make a big mistake in this?

gaming.stackexchange.com/posts/6460/revisions

the original title just seemed too long

FallenAngelEyes

Looks good to me

Necessary info is still there

alexanderpas

seems nice to me.

Arda Xi

I mean, the 'I don\'t want it to be' is pretty much implied

FallenAngelEyes

10:11 PM

right

Arda Xi

anyway, why do we care so much about game-rec at all?

FallenAngelEyes

As in why do we care about nuking it or keeping it?

Arda Xi

yes

I mean, they're bad questions, but SO has plenty of bad questions open

FallenAngelEyes

It seems to have kind of snowballed into the issue

I am not on SO, so I don't really know how it goes there or what the standards are

We just seem to have a collection of people who feel very strongly about it

alexanderpas

we don't care about [game-rec], we care about the state of our site, and the influence [game-rec] has on it.

Arda Xi

10:19 PM

@alexanderpas I don't see how that's such a big influence

Mads Elvheim

Anyone wants to play some oldschool Quake 2 coop? (-:

Or is everyone busy with Starcraft 2?

Arda Xi

FallenAngelEyes

I am not as severely opposed to game-rec as some, so I'm afraid I can't offer much enlightenment on the matter

alexanderpas

@MadsElvheim I've got Quake II on steam, but i don't have it installed.

Grace Note

@Arda My main problems with Game Rec come from two points - our support and their scale

FallenAngelEyes

10:22 PM

The crux of it, I believe, is that one does not need to be an expert to give one's opinion and game-rec is just a collection of opinions

That's the main argument I see from the people who are against it, and also the support issue that Grace stated

Arda Xi

I can see why someone might not like to answer game-rec... but the fiery rampage that happens every time one comes along is a bit much in my opinion

FallenAngelEyes

I agree with you

Grace Note

@Arda I'm not a fan of the heavy action that happens, but that's why I stay out of it when it's not part of a Meta discussion

Quite frankly, closed or open the issue is still not resolved

Arda Xi

I don't see why we need to close them, especially as S&A

Grace Note

S&A is a dummy excuse

Arda Xi

10:25 PM

the only 'confrontation and argument' I've seen about them is whether or not to close them

Grace Note

The more appropriate close reason would be "Discussion/Poll" that Aarobot suggested

The fact is that the close reason we need is somewhere between S&A and NARQ

FallenAngelEyes

ping @Mana? I believe he is also strongly against game-rec

Arda Xi

begs the question of why we don't have that close reason yet, seeing as how long SO has been around

alexanderpas

yeah, we need the P/D close reason.

Grace Note

Well, poke and prod the team some more

Back when we first got the pro tem job Juan and I hounded Jeff for it but that didn't particularly get a successful result.

FallenAngelEyes

10:27 PM

I think one of the biggest issues we have is how many people weighing in counts as a "consensus"?

Arda Xi

I'm saying, why wasn't it needed in SO's lifetime?

alexanderpas

because code is more objective?

Grace Note

Because at the start, it was more lienient

FallenAngelEyes

How many people do we need for or against the point for it to be considered solved?

Arda Xi

what about 'what\'s better for this project, C# or Java'?

Mana

10:28 PM

Hullo!

alexanderpas

gaming is an experience, which has objective goals on the road.

Grace Note

@Arda How many of those do you ever see?

Mana

I was pinged.

Grace Note

@Fallen Part of that issue is the fact that I can never get the pro-rec people to ever give strong solutions to the issue

Arda Xi

@GraceNote I can't imagine it's never happened

11 mins ago, by Arda Xi

anyway, why do we care so much about game-rec at all?

Mana

10:29 PM

Ooh, are we killing game-rec? Because I would love to kill game-rec. I'll kill game-rec if you want me to. Actually, I'd kill anything, but I want to kill game-rec really badly.

eyes twitch

Grace Note

@Arda But the fact you don't see it is key

My second point, the scale of recs, is why "allow them all" is generally considered a poor solution

Arda Xi

has SO never had any opinionated questions?

Grace Note

@Arda Where are you going with this?

Arda Xi

I'm just wondering why people feel so strongly about game-rec

why not just keep them open

Grace Note

Well, I keep trying but you keep drawing on a tangent

It's not about how SO handles it. Which, I might recount, is poorly

Arda Xi

10:31 PM

I'm sorry.

But for example with the procedural content games question, all it took was one comment from Jeff to keep it open

alexanderpas

SO had its share of opinionated questions, they got closed and buried (thanks to other questions) merciless later on in the lifetime, with a select few kept open (at the mod whim)

Arda Xi

There doesn't seem any pattern in closing/not-closing to me.

Grace Note

The pattern is based on who sees it

There is no policy. We have the people who are opposed that vote to close, and the people who support that vote to reopen. Which state it remains in is entirely dependent on who is around at what time

alexanderpas

@Jeff = 神

Mana

I think all game-rec should die because there is a significant risk that if it doesn't this site will devolve from gaming.stackexchange.com to gamerec.stackexchange.com

Grace Note

10:36 PM

Our poor support is mostly highlighted in my answer to @Fallen's meta question about exclusion - neither our mechanical system nor our userbase caters to a strong set of recommendations.

My comment on the procedural games question also explains the majority of the issue of the userbase itself - we don't have a large population of users who are willing to go the lengths to construct a good repository

But because the methodology of a repository differs from a normal question, we end up making them Community Wiki, a largely agreed upon standard that is even promoted by the Team

alexanderpas

@Mana I partly agree; for the general set you have my full agreement; for the specific (obscure) set, I think we should allow it.

Grace Note

This in turn means that our tiny population of dedicated repository builders won't grow much larger, because they get nothing out of doing it.

alexanderpas

@GraceNote which effectively discourages repositories

FallenAngelEyes

Get nothing in what way?

alexanderpas

@FallenAngelEyes rep.

Grace Note

10:40 PM

This is further amplified by further system support issues like horrible navigation for any list greater than 30 items, very lackluster comment system that cannot be searched, and other

Arda Xi

I think I understand, but that doesn't explain why we close questions which already have quite a bit of answers.

FallenAngelEyes

What if there are people who don't care about rep and find it helpful enough to build those repositories anyway?

Grace Note

@Fallen Why aren't we seeing it?

alexanderpas

@ArdaXi because they have quite a bit of answers.

Mana

Because if we close new game-rec questions, they will go through, dig up those old questions, and shove them in our face on meta asking why they're not closed.

Grace Note

10:41 PM

Not to mention, the nature of CW is more than just reputation

Arda Xi

@alexanderpas what's wrong with that?

FallenAngelEyes

Because we rain down the banhammer before answers can be more thoroughly expanded?

Grace Note

It's entirely selfless - your contribution is basically rolled into a "community" contribution

Arda Xi

@Mana So why close those new questions

Grace Note

You're not even guaranteed to have your name shown on the post

And moreso, the people who want recommendations care far less about the people who give them, and more about the game itself.

Mana

10:42 PM

Like I said, because I don't want game-rec to get out of hand and dominate the site.

FallenAngelEyes

@GraceNote: I don't see why, if people are okay with that, we prevent them from doing that if they so wish

Arda Xi

@GraceNote Doesn't that go for most questions?

Most people will be more interested in an answer than who's giving it

Grace Note

@Arda But for example, everyone knows that tzenes writes some excellent SC2 answers. Everyone knows that Jon Skeet writes excellent C# answers

alexanderpas

bad game-rec: "japanese fighting games that can be played when you don't know japanese."

Arda Xi

@GraceNote true, but those are edge cases

Would you know where my expertise lies without looking it up?

Mana

10:44 PM

Dwarf Fortress, I'd say.

Arda Xi

Not really... I give much higher-quality answers in Source-based game questions

Mana

Oh, fair enough then.

Grace Note

They're edge cases to be familiar when you see the site

alexanderpas

@ArdaXi you're a generalist. (when do you get the badge?)

Grace Note

But if, for example, I ask about a certain game series and I frequently get answers from one person, I'm going to notice it a lot easier

Arda Xi

10:46 PM

But this is more of an anti-CW argument than an anti-game-rec one

Grace Note

It doesn't even have to be a huge reputation in that game for it to be noticeable

Arda Xi

@alexanderpas I would not know.

Grace Note

Generalist requires you to have a score of 20 on at least 20 of the top 40 tags, when the top 40 all have at least 200 questions

Arda Xi

not soon then.

Mana

I dunno. I'm really against game-rec, but I'm more for seeing the community reach an agreement before beta ends.

Be it game-rec lives, game-rec dies or a bit of both.

Grace Note

10:49 PM

Can I reach the scale argument? Will I ever get there?

Arda Xi

I'm really just trying to form a better perspective on the issue, by looking at it from the other side.

@GraceNote Go right ahead. :)

Grace Note

The scale argument is the one that I think can be handled

But the problem is that I never see anyone seriously try to address it

Mana

What's the scale argument?

Grace Note

The scale argument comes in two parts, the long life of a recommendation (the lack of conclusion), and the potential variety (the available scopes)

The former is an interesting one because it becomes more community oriented over time, rather than addressing the original need

Mostly because once the original author is initially satisfied, the author probably won't be actively monitoring the question for a better suggestion until the current game is completed (or games, if a checklist was built)

So the addition of new games actually provides a lot of benefit to the community in general more than the original author.

The addition of new games also means that it will be on the front page repeatedly. This doesn't sound that bad, though, until you figure in the second portion, the potential variety.

(Though, the front page problem is a fairly bad one considering we're advertising ourselves as a "Very weak recommendation system")

The potential variety is, simply put, what all kind of different game recs we can come up with. This ranges from your basic "genre X on platform Y" to "games which have certain mechanics" to "games that would be a good follow up to this game I just beat" and finally "games with Z".

alexanderpas

which would devolve into shopping advice.

Arda Xi

10:56 PM

So the problem is not just the front-page thing and the amount of them, but both. I'd always looked at them seperately.

Grace Note

The ultimate problem with our current "not too broad" criterium is that it is horribly subjective. Who is to say how broad something is?

And most importantly, no one has said how broad we are measuring.

The only seemingly accepted one seems to be "genre X on platform Y", but even then those get by.

Some people say it has to contain a certain number of features/themes... but how many is enough? And who is to say how crucial or defining each feature is?

Arda Xi

In my opinion we should either accept all, or accept none.

alexanderpas

@GraceNote that is why we look at the number of answers for those questions where we can't determine it is too broad.

Arda Xi

Anything in-between will only lead to discussion

Grace Note

@alex That is a horrible, horrible idea that I'd love to cover in a tangent

@Arda Exactly

The end point is that all we currently do is make it easier for argument to be raised on the subject.

I'm going to say it right now, the simple number of games that qualify, if absolutely known, is completely irrelevant to the scope of a repository and why we will or will not be able to handle it.

alexanderpas

11:00 PM

@GraceNote is seems like it is currently "working" that way.

Grace Note

@alex, No, it seriously isn't.

There is absolutely no reason for "Roguelikes on Android" to be ok but not Roguelikes on a more popular and open platform that has more.

3

Basing it on the fact that there are fewer on that platform means that we for some reason prefer the underdogs? Is that what we really want to advertise? "Oh, you play the XBox 360? That's filled with FPS games... sorry we can't recommend you anything. Maybe if you were playing on the iPhone, though".

Mana

But the thing is...if in the end we're gonna end up deciding to either take them all or reject them all, isn't the question of scope kind of meaningless?

alexanderpas

@GraceNote Oh, you play the XBox 360? That's filled with FPS games... sorry we can't recommend you anything, however, if you walk in the store, there are 50 different ones on the shelves.

Grace Note

As well, wanting a smaller number of candidates is further to the point of why we will always be bad at handling repositories.

The whole point of a repository is to contain as many examples as possible for the given criteria. By limiting ourselves, we are marketting ourselves as "crappy recommendation service".

@alex What if they don't have a game store around? What if they do, but they actually want a recommendation on what to play, kinda the whole point of the question?

Would you use a movie service that never catered to the kind of movies you like?

Mana

Another question: If a decision needs to be made about whether or not game-rec should live, who decides?

alexanderpas

11:07 PM

@GraceNote If I like comedy, no matter what, and there is always a comedy running in the movietheatre, I woudn't need to use the movie service.

Mana

Even if it cost you $50 per comedy movie and if you wanted to figure out which comedy was best?

Grace Note

Then I guess our site is useless to any platform that has accumulated more than a handful of games.

Mana

or maybe I'm misinterpreting the metaphor here, my brain's all fuzzy

alexanderpas

best == subjective!

Mana

Yeah...so...wait what? Now my head hurts and I can't figure out if you're saying we should have game-rec or not @Alex

alexanderpas

11:10 PM

to decide what's "best", I need to be more specific.

Mana

How does best become any less subjective the more specific you get?

alexanderpas

however, if i'm looking for a comedy with animals, which takes place in an enclosed area, that should be catered for.

FallenAngelEyes

that's a hilarious example

Grace Note

Why is your need one that should be catered for?

Why are we selective to fewer results rather than specific criteria?

alexanderpas

because usually, fewer results == more specific criteria

Grace Note

11:13 PM

No, more specific criteria usually means fewer results

I ask again, why should we cater to the niche lookers and turn away the people who happen to like more popular platforms? What is so much more important about those niche lookers?

alexanderpas

if A == B then B == A.

Grace Note

It's related, not equal

I can think of some very specific criteria that can turn up far more games than you might expect

Arda Xi

@alexanderpas No, if A requires B that doesn't mean B requires A

alexanderpas

@ArdaXi equals != requires

Grace Note

But fewer results is NOT equal to more specific criteria

Arda Xi

11:16 PM

That's affirming the consequent

Affirming the consequent

Affirming the consequent, sometimes called converse error, is a formal fallacy, committed by reasoning in the form: #If P, then Q. #Q. #Therefore, P. An argument of this form is invalid, i.e., the conclusion can be false even when statements 1 and 2 are true. Since P was never asserted as the only sufficient condition for Q, other factors could account for Q (while P was false). The name affirming the consequent derives from the premise Q, which affirms the "then" clause of the conditional premise. Examples One way to demonstrate the invalidity of this argument form is with a countere...

Mana

oh god this is starting to remind me of that symbolic logic course I'm starting in two weeks

Grace Note

And moreover, this whole logic thing is irrelevant

Mana

Yeah, I think we're overcomplicating this.

Grace Note

Do I need to ask again? Why should we cater to the harder categories than to the softer ones?

Why is it a better idea to turn away the more numerous results?

alexanderpas

we should also cater to the more popular results... they just should be more specific: (too broad) example: prefer "WWII shooter" over "shooter".

Grace Note

11:20 PM

There are a lot of WWII shooters, not a lot of WWII pinball games. Why do the pinball gamers get precedence?

FallenAngelEyes

Isn't that the same answer as why we in general prefer more specific questions to less specific ones? So we can better address the question?

alexanderpas

the tagging will bring all the shooters together.

we can put all WWII FPS in 1 question, all modern day FPS in another, all arena FPS in a third question, and a search for [game-rec] [first-person-shooter] will list all those questions together.

Grace Note

So your basic logic is that we should make it easier for niche people to participate, but actively make it more difficult for mainstream people to participate.

alexanderpas

however, with the pinball games, the needed granularity is different, so as as a result, the questions are different too.

niche people should be able to find their games as easy as non-niche people, and as the niche people have a worse starting position, so they need better run, to reach the finich at the same time.

Grace Note

Except we're actively making it difficult for the mainstream users

Let's change it up a bit - why is our target audience the niche users?

alexanderpas

11:32 PM

we focus on the niche people because they need a better run. a sports trainer doesn't focus on the sporters where he has 10 of, he is instead focusing on the one that doesn't conform the general situation, either because he's lagging back, or because he's sprinting forward.

Grace Note

This isn't focusing - this is turning away the other people. This would be if the coach told the other runners to leave until they had issues that made them like the deviant.

alexanderpas

a sports trainer won't train someone who want to be a sprinter, and also run the marathon twice a year, he tells them to make a choice between the two.

Grace Note

Why do we have to make such a choice? What is wrong with our current, open audience?

alexanderpas

if they were two people, the trainer would train them both, 1 as a marathon runner, and one as a sprinter.

Grace Note

Drop the metaphor, get back to the site. Why should we narrow the scope of who we can help on this site?

And more importantly, if we must be narrowing our scope, why are we turning down the mainstream users who probably will provide better traffic overall?

alexanderpas

11:38 PM

it's not who we can help, it's what they need help with.

Grace Note

Both users just want the same kind of game on their platform of choice. They need help with the same issue

alexanderpas

it's similar to the "where are all the guns in this game" question. for some games it is acceptable, because it only has 3 guns on a specific place, for others it is not acceptable, because it has 18600000 randomly generated guns.

Grace Note

Those are two separate scopes, though.

Not to mention we can address both - the 3 gun one is explained where those guns are, while the latter explains the random generation system and how one can actually arrive at determining all 18600000 guns.

Mana

Hey, that's a nice idea. Never occurred to me quite like that.

alexanderpas

that won't work for [game-rec] probaly.

Mana

11:45 PM

Well, yeah, because it's a separate issue.

Grace Note

That's more an example of why your comparison is flawed than anything

Mana

In the case Grace was talking about, we're discussing about things which have one correct answer.

Grace Note

That's a complete tangent, Mana

Mana

I know, I'm just saying, the comparison is flawed.

Grace Note

Let's try a different approach that is devoid of all this metaphor nonsense.

alexanderpas

11:47 PM

the first case, would be perfectly acceptable, but the second case would need to be more specific, when applied to game-rec.

Mana

I dunno anymore or really care anymore. My main worry is who we're going to let decide the fate of game-rec.

Grace Note

On second thought, no, let's not, because I imagine that would be circular

alexanderpas

metaphors are fun as you can put some references in it ;)

Grace Note

They also detract from the point at hand and don't always make a useful comparison

alexanderpas

also true, but as long as the main point is made, they have done their job.

Grace Note

11:51 PM

Except for the part where they didn't.

alexanderpas

lol

JavadocMD

Like putting too much air in a balloon!

Grace Note

I digress. Dinner approaches. It is identified as Butsutekkai.

Mana

@GraceNote: So...when all's said and done, do we simply throw up a poll on meta asking "Does game-rec live or die"?

or does it go to the mods or what?

Grace Note

@Mana I don't know. We tried that. 3 times.

alexanderpas

11:53 PM

we need three answers for that: live, die, live under restrictions.

Grace Note

Well, we don't have any real mods yet, and this is a community. It should be done by the community.

@Arda By the way, was your need satisfied?

alexanderpas

(I need to reread the transcript, and put the things i've said here in a proper post on meta.)

Mana

Are you sure the community will consider what's been argued for and against?

Grace Note

@alex A post on what, exactly?

Well, I suppose I'll figure out when you post it. Have fun writing~

Mana

hum.

alexanderpas

11:58 PM

no meta questions tagged game-rec?

FallenAngelEyes

they're just under discussion I think

I think some stuff is also partially mixed in in the "list of X" discussions too

Grace Note

[lists] and [game-recommendations] are the primary tags for those

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