Open House

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oh I can still edit dis!
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Morbi in sem quis dui placerat ornare. Pellentesque odio nisi, euismod in, pharetra a, ultricies in, diam. Sed arcu. Cras consequat.

Praesent dapibus, neque id cursus faucibus, tortor neque egestas augue, eu vulputate magna eros eu erat. Aliq…

balpha

> it's too late for you to edit this message

darren_n

11:34 AM

nice feature on oversized text

xk0der

hmm! interesting ....

devinb

what's all this then?

controlbreak

yourworldoftext.com/controlbreak

hehehe

this is awesome too

a text wave

balpha

@devinb it's this:

have a meta.stackoverflow account? please help us load test our new chat system, which is in public beta -- http://goo.gl/uSFu

Tweeted by codinghorror on August 31, 2010 at 7:20 AM

darren_n

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

<html lang="en">
<head>

Stephen Denne

11:36 AM

Message: 'focus().val()' is null or not an object
Line: 138
Char: 436
Code: 0
URI: http://sstatic.net/chat/Js/master-chat.js?v=13063702

devinb

@balpha Right.

Got it.

balpha

@StephenDenne let me guess -- you're not logged in, but tried to reply?

darren_n

lorem2.com

Stephen Denne

@balpha yep

Ikke

We just have to chat here as mutch as we can?

balpha

11:43 AM

yes

chat right on

Nick Craver

@balpha - worth testing the rate throttling, or will IIS just ban me after the 10/sec limit?

or rather, HAProxy now I guess

Benjol

spouting rubbish for the common good...

balpha

right, it's HAProxy and the chat app itself

Nick Craver

is it action based, or will enough chat windows open also trigger it?

balpha

if you have a moderately modern browser, only one of the windows will hit the server anyway

Thomas Owens

11:48 AM

Morning.

balpha

howdy

Benjol

@balpha, how many users were you hoping for?

Thomas Owens

How goes the load testing?

Benjol

In other words, do you need more chatters, or just more chatting?

Ikke

Both I guess

balpha

11:51 AM

well, it's hard to top the 400 bots I have talking in my room locally

Thomas Owens

Just curious...I think someone said that XMPP was a possibility. Any changes on that?

Benjol

@balpha, yeah, knowing that I wondered what you are hoping to get out of this 'stress test'. or are you testing us this time? :)

balpha

@ThomasOwens As it says in the FAQ, "We're not sure yet"

Thomas Owens

Oh. There's the FAQ.

I was looking for it and glanced right over it. :\ Just woke up after not sleeping well.

balpha

@Benjol it could have been more, but I think it was alright

devinb

11:53 AM

If you want to test the volume of text possible, we should start importing every word in the meta FAQ into this chatroom.

ALL the meta FAQ questions.

Or just all of my answers.

Same content, more words.

Nick Craver

could setup a feed for that

to test volume that is

Benjol

@devinb, @NickCraver, if there was a feed for the chat, you could just leave it whirring on it's own :)

devinb

@balpha this might run afoul "don't ask don't tell" but is there any spam-bot throttling/protection?

a

It would appear that yes.

When I type too fast, it locks me out.

balpha

you mean, for all the spam bots with 20 rep on meta? :)

devinb

Meta REP is your check on their "humaninity"?

all I need to do is post one snarky response and I'd exceed that.

Not that I would ever.

Benjol

11:57 AM

@devinb, FWIW snarky is probably a good test of humanity too :)

devinb

@benjol LOL touche!

Sam152

The time it takes for someone to be banned here, vs gaining meta rep isn't really viable for spambots.

devinb

But what I meant is that it's fairly easy to get an account that would be viable to spam this place.

Although, I feel like the target is not really... lucrative. Bringing down MetaChat really won't gain you much.

Sam152

They would be banned quickly though.

Meaning the time it takes to make another 20 rep account, to continue spamming, just isn't worth the time.

waffles

@balpha thats it I'm off to write a spam bot that posts pictures of oolong, waffles and unicorns, I bet he will be up to 20 rep in like 3 minutes :)

reach4thelasers

12:06 PM

hey all

balpha

@waffles he might even get a job offer from SO

Stephen Denne

flickr.com/search/show/?q=waffles

waffles

@balpha lol

@StephenDenne that is making me really hungry

reach4thelasers

oh my god - just fired up FireBug... they are using 2second polling for this "chat" beta

POST http://chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/events
POST http://chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/events

200 OK
283ms
jquery.min.js (line 130)
POST http://chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/events
POST http://chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/events

200 OK
186ms
jquery.min.js (line 130)
POST http://chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/events
POST http://chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/events

200 OK
189ms
jquery.min.js (line 130)
POST http://chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/events
POST http://chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/events

200 OK

VERY POOR!

Sam152

Tamper data is really handy for that sort of thing.

xk0der

12:10 PM

@reach4thelasers they are here!

Sam152

And what's wrong with 2 second polling?

reach4thelasers

haven't you ever heard of BOSH?

1. its gonna hammer your servers

2. its not real time

3. it doesn't scale

Chris Boesing

how would you implement it?

reach4thelasers

BOSH

waffles

@reach4thelasers funny, campfire seems to scale just fine, if we need to port to comet we always can later on.

reach4thelasers

12:13 PM

so much for the realtime web

Sam152

realtime* web

balpha

@reach4thelasers you'll have to get in line with all the other "OMG you guys are stupid" people

2

Sam152

within 2 seconds

balpha

right behind the "what's wrong with IRC" people

erdogany

I just joined

reach4thelasers

12:14 PM

IRC is not web-based

IRC does not use HTTP

waffles

I love how we get live feedback about how our chat sucks, on chat ...

erdogany

I don't know how public chat could be useful

Ivan Krechetov

bigthink.com/ideas/23028

erdogany

I never liked IRC

xk0der

@erdogan and yet you are here :) ... give it some time.... maybe you'll start liking it, if you don't, that's fine too.

Sekhat

12:16 PM

public chat on stackoverflow? The chance to discuss all sorts of stuff with programmers better than yourself? It's going to bring huge improvements to my programming if nothing else :)

wds

I'm confused, why am I supposed to think there's anything wrong with 2s-polling?

reach4thelasers

Are we there yet?... No

balpha

@wds 1. its gonna hammer our servers

2. its not real time

3. it doesn't scale

reach4thelasers

Are we there yet?... No
Are we there yet?... No
Are we there yet?... No
Are we there yet?... No
Are we there yet?... No
Are we there yet?... No

Chris Boesing

hammer the servers? you have 6 million vc money, who cares about the servers ;-)

Josh

12:17 PM

lol

reach4thelasers

and whatever is happening on the server to determine that "no, we're not there yet, it takes 200ms to return"

wds

/me is used to hanging out on 1-2s latency IRC

George Stocker

I'm really surprised that Jeff Atwood re-opened this: stackoverflow.com/questions/3597747/…

Sekhat

@balpha its real-time enough for me. :), hammering your servers is your problem not mine, and well I'm sure it scales the similarly to the way highly visited websites scale. Non?

waffles

@GeorgeStocker Jeff loves svn :)

reach4thelasers

12:19 PM

Go onto facebook. Start up firebug, console tab..... see the POST that is held open for 60s - that's BOSH

erdogany

@xk0der Thanks

Chris Boesing

are you using iis for the chat or have you written your own stuff? I know campfire has it's own erlang thing in the background

waffles

@reach4thelasers thats not bosh ... its comet ... and it can be implemented with node.js nginx and a bunch of other tricks

reach4thelasers

now open another facebook window in another browser and send urself a message. note that the post on the firebug window returns immediately and facebook notifies you in real time about the new message

xk0der

@erdogany you are welcome! :)

waffles

12:20 PM

if we need to port to it one day we always can

Comet (programming)

In web development, Comet is a neologism to describe a web application model in which a long-held HTTP request allows a web server to push data to a browser, without the browser explicitly requesting it. Comet is an umbrella term for multiple techniques for achieving this interaction. All these methods rely on features included by default in browsers, such as JavaScript, rather than on non-default plugins. In theory, the Comet approach differs from the original model of the web, in which a browser requests a complete web page or chunks of data to update a web page. However in practice,...

balpha

@reach4thelasers we know how long polling works

we're just stupid, okay?

Sekhat

@reach4thelas I don't know why 2 seconds polling is any worse than realtime

I can wait 2 seconds to hear what you have to say

waffles

@Sekhat I WANTS my CHATS Now

Sekhat

@waffles lol

reach4thelasers

BOSH is an implementataion of COMET for chat

Anyway good luck scaling this baby out of beta

Benjol

12:22 PM

sounds like tosh to me ;)

George Stocker

So could we get some keyboard shortcut love? Maybe "Shift+R" to see replies, and Shift+M or Shift+PageDown to go back to the bottom of the screen after?

Sam152

Facebook uses polling.

reach4thelasers

anyway cya guys....

George Stocker

err, Ctrl+shift+R/

Sam152

That scaled okay.

Hahah

Funny, facebook polls every 2 seconds for chat too.

Sekhat

12:24 PM

@Sam152 lol

xk0der

@Sam152 : ha ha

:)

Sekhat

hmm, I should probably do work...

Josh

@Sekhat likewise. But when I saw "YOU GUYS DO SOME LOAD TESTY THINGS WHILE IM GONE" I couldn't pass up the opportunity to break someone else's code for a while :-)

balpha

@Sam152 either way -- our event protocol is totally decoupled from the transport, so if the current solution turns out to be a problem, we can always switch to long polling

Sam152

You could even change it dynamically based off load.

Long story short, I think you're fine.

balpha

12:26 PM

But starting with it because it might cause problems is premature optimization

Josh

@balpha I'm not sure I see the problem with the current solution; I was using it all day yesterday in the tavern, gaming, php and superuser rooms without any issue

Benjol

@balpha have you got a homing pigeon API just in case? :)

2

Josh

roflmao

Sam152

@Benjol olololololol

Josh

@Sam152 that sounds problematic to me...

balpha

12:27 PM

@Benjol :)

@Josh :139818 the number of open tabs doesn't even matter, only one of them will poll the server

Sam152

@Josh What does?

Josh

@balpha Really? Now that's an impressive trick! goes to read the source

@Sam152 "You could even change it dynamically based off load."

Sam152

Couldn't you?

Josh

I would think sticking with the most efficient algorithm woule be best, not switching solutions based off load

Sam152

Just include the delay to poll the server at in each little payload.

balpha

12:29 PM

sure you could

Josh

oh, sorry, I misunderstood

wds

using comet won't scale magically either anyway

balpha

long polling is just polling, only long

Josh

nevermind me. it's early here, need more coffee :-)

wds

you'll just run out of sockets quicker

Sekhat

12:29 PM

@wds and memory

controlbreak

I want a fat client for it

Josh

@controlbreak I want OS X Growl integration :-)

controlbreak

and iPhone !

and Android !

and Palm

Sekhat

I want cookies

Sam152

IE5

>_>

Vincent Van Den Berghe

12:31 PM

still load testing?

Sam152

Adding a gif only load tests the clients ;)

badp

My cat just lost a whisker :(

Josh

@Sam152 LOL I was gonna say...

Vincent Van Den Berghe

^^

Sekhat

someone could write something to chat messages at a million a minute and we all could use it?

Josh

12:32 PM

@badp I CAN HAS THAT BACK? I NEEDS THOSE TO STEERS!

Sam152

I got booted the last time I request IE5 support.

@Sam152 NOOOOOOOOOO!

@Josh U LOSED ITZ

@Marc got grumpy.

12:35 PM

Can we get better Lynx support please? Talking about ungraceful degradation.

Josh

@Sam152 It's on the list below Netscape Navigator 4 support ;-)

Sam152

Josh

ok, not sure if this works, let's see...

30 mins ago, by waffles

@balpha thats it I'm off to write a spam bot that posts pictures of oolong, waffles and unicorns, I bet he will be up to 20 rep in like 3 minutes :)

2

Stephen Denne

It's probably higher up the list than IE5

Josh

Did that notify you @Sekhat?

blizpasta

12:37 PM

load testing 1 2 3.

2

Josh

@StephenDenne I'm sure

2

Sekhat

@josh nope

2

Josh

@blizpasta load testing 4 5 6

2

Mana

load testing is so cool maaaaaaaaan

Sam152

status-loaded

Josh

12:38 PM

@Sekhat hm. It was waffles' message which I was posting in reply to:

2

5 mins ago, by Sekhat

someone could write something to chat messages at a million a minute and we all could use it?

3

Sekhat

Unreasonable Request

2

controlbreak

could the window stay open indefinitely ?

2

how this behave ?

2

Sekhat

meh, I was hoping that would image it..

2

Josh

3

@Sekhat looks like you need the actual image URL

3

blizpasta

Leaving the chat. Happy load testing to all here. :)

3

Sekhat

12:39 PM

@Josh yeah, ta. :)

2

Josh

@blizpasta later!

3

Mana

Let's star every single message in the chat

3

in case it breaks something :3

2

Josh

@Mana lol! I started with this one ;-)

3

controlbreak

Josh

@Mana HAHA someone took you seriously!

Stephen Denne

12:41 PM

@Mana you do that then I'll click "show all 1965"

controlbreak

need the maximum Fail pictures and lolcatz so I can check how it behave when the client stays open forever ^^

Mana

Oh wow

There's a daily star limit

Just found that out.

Sam152

Looks like 3 people took it seriously.

Sekhat

@Sam152 I like clicking things!!

Josh

@Mana LOL. FOiled again!

Sam152

12:41 PM

I was definitely not one of them. >_>

Mana

I always take myself seriously.

Sekhat

@Sam152 which is a good thing, next to typing it's second most time consumer of my day

badp

@Sam152 chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/transcript/212

Benjol

serious question - I want to ask a question on SO, but not sure how to word it

I'm wondering how to manage branch & merge if you've got inherently un-mergeable 'assets'

badp

Wording a question is half solving it

Benjol

12:43 PM

like labview files or something

controlbreak

wording it twice does not

Sam152

@badp If your intention was to crash by browser, you succeeded.

Benjol

@badp, and also half finding it...

badp

|o|

Sekhat

¬_¬

Stephen Denne

12:46 PM

Message editing history looks a little unusual

chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/messages/139918/history

balpha

Yeah, that page is on the to-be-revamped list anyway

Neurofluxation

Hiya

Benjol

1

Q: What to use - 'I' or 'Me' ?

Which one of the below sentences is correct? John and me are working on it. OR John and I are working on it.

grammar

ooh, shiny :)

Neurofluxation

John and I

imo

Benjol

4

Q: Is there a on-line money manager system that can import Microsoft Money UK data files?

I need to move away from Microsoft Money as it has come to the end of its life. There seems to be lots of on line money management systems, however I need one that: Can import my UK Microsoft Money data files Will track investments (including stock splits etc) As well as day to day banking Doe...

webapp-rec finance money ms-money

more shiny. Don't think I knew that stackexchange sites worked too.

Neurofluxation

12:53 PM

So, how do I post a question like that lot ^_^?

Benjol

@Neurofluxation, you just paste the url of any question in its own message

it's called "oneboxing"

but I call it magic

Neurofluxation

Cheers Benjol

Benjol

there are other magic links - there's a question on meta

Neurofluxation

2

Q: I was wondering, is there a Chuck Norris of programming?

I saw in a question comment about "half pixels" that John Skeet "...can half a pixel...". Which begs the question: Is John Skeet the Chuck Norris of Stackoverflow? Answers on a postcard ^_^

stackoverflow.com

oh

Benjol

6

Q: What links and sites are handled specially in chat?

There is special linking to some sites in chat. What is the full list of supported and integrated sites?

discussion hyperlinks chat faq-proposed onebox

Neurofluxation

12:54 PM

whey hey!

Benjol

and:

5

Q: What sites should have hyperlinking (onebox) support in chat?

Some sites are integrated to chat . What additional sites should the chat support? One suggestion per answer.

discussion hyperlinks chat onebox

Neurofluxation

ty :)

Nice idea, any reason this hasn't been implemented on stackoverflow.com as well?

chat.stackoverflow.com?

Ardman

9

A: Windows 7 phone development

This link will answer your setup/requirements question. Quote from site: The Windows Phone Developer Tools Beta includes Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone Beta, the Windows Phone Emulator, XNA Game Studio, Expression Blend for Windows Phone, samples, and documentation. If Visual Stu...