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12:02 AM
@MarkAmery I do nothing but the front page :p
 
 
2 hours later…
hey
1:55 AM
@Feeds so, the ToS has finally become active... and we'll now wait for the "ToS change" email...?
also, morning
(yup, still not see email from SO. Last "Privacy Policy" email was from Quora
hmm? After checking similar emails, I guess I misunderstood slightly? The ToS etc has been updated, but will come into effect on 25th?
 
hey
2:31 AM
reading ToS-related matter before coffee doesn't seem a good idea...
 
 
3 hours later…
5:26 AM
Strange. I keep being notified in the top bar to review my own proposed edits to tag wikis.
 
5:47 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Because you are the original author of tag wiki?
 
hey
I also got review indicators for my NAA/VLQ flag if it's not yet handled, yet I can't review it because as the flagger, I'm not eligible :p
 
6:03 AM
@NogShine Yes, I said "my own".
@hey Overarching bug: top bar doesn't exclude items specific users are ineligible to review (because they own it, they cast a vote or flag externally, they don't have enough rep to review specific tasks, etc.)
 
morning
 
6:34 AM
Are we still officially using "Help vampires"? or was that retired like some other words?
 
7:02 AM
@user5389107 not retired as far as I know, although, it isn't exactly very "nice" to call someone... not exactly wrong in describing behavior though.
The refiner badge is freaking hard, I don't know how anyone got Illuminator without having known about it for years and just slowly trudging towards it.
(maybe that is why only 92 out of 9 million users have it)
On a side note, wtf??? 8.8 million SO users? I remember when it was 3 million. What does the graph of that growth rate look like?
mind blown
^tp
no anime moderators on to nuke user :(
Would have thought more people would be around Monday in the middle of the night :P
 
7:17 AM
Why am I shown this banner all of a sudden? Is the new privacy policy, data policy, cookies policy officially live now?
 
@NogShine Just rolled out to the entire network
 
@TravisJ yes
 
It wasn't a question :P
 
Does that mean all the policies are officially live?
@TravisJ lol
 
Well, technically the policy is as written, and you implicitly accept it. So, if it states the policy in that new section (I didn't read all of it) then yes, it is officially live.
 
7:36 AM
@TravisJ One of the faq posts explicitly references "help vampires" and links to a comic about it
 
@user5389107 Nice. Well, I mean, I wish users would not be help vampires. At the same time, I can understand how that type of branding could perhaps contribute to a negative environment. Users label things that annoy them, kind of hard to get away from it, and removing the label will more than likely just give rise to another one, or a set of them.
 
@TravisJ Well yeah, but if the goal of your FAQ post is to get people who were Q-banned to work on fixing their behavior, calling them help vampires doesn't exactly improve your chances now, does it?
 
In that context, it would seem counter productive. However, it is also a rather well articulated set of "don't do this" points.
 
right
but if you're trying to convince and guide, starting off the argument with an insult can lead people to shut down
 
Agree, I call that harpooning
> Harpooning is where someone is disciplined so severely in a verbal manner that they are figuratively "harpooned" to the ground. These people will feel very disenfranchised to the community and to those who contributed to the harpooning.
 
7:47 AM
> Why am I getting this message?

As stated in the about links on every page, Stack Exchange is a network of question and answer sites, not help forums. This implies that all posts are expected to have value for later visitors, in addition to helping the asker. To enforce that, and to prevent help vampires from making the answerers turn away from the community, low-quality questions and answers are blocked. This includes posts from:

users who can't be bothered to form sentences
users who don't do the most basic kinds of research themselves
 
Euphemism generator engaged..
 
If I was presented that on the heels of a ban it'd at least sting
Maybe that's justified (you did earn that ban after all) but it might not be conducive to change behavior
decoupling fairness from utility for a sec, maybe rewriting it to be more utilitarian and less confrontational could serve to get fewer people to annoy others on meta
 
@MartinJames more fun than you can beat with a monkey
 
@TravisJ :lol
 
@user5389107 link?
 
7:54 AM
New policy says accounts which post sexually explicit material will be suspended. Only suspended and not deleted? It used to be deletion in the past.
 
hey
euphemising sarcasm
 
https://meta.stackexchange.com/help/question-bans
https://stackoverflow.com/help/question-bans
I don't see that explanation in those help files
Ah, in the meta faq answer
40
A: What can I do when getting “We are no longer accepting questions/answers from this account”?

Robert HarveyWhy am I getting this message? As stated in the about links on every page, Stack Exchange is a network of question and answer sites, not help forums. This implies that all posts are expected to have value for later visitors, in addition to helping the asker. To enforce that, and to prevent help ...

To note, it is locked. So no one can edit it.
 
hey
Oh, it's a meta answer, not a help center...
 
It is used all the time with dupehammer though
all. the. time.
I have to agree @user5389107, that really should be edited. It needs to have the order changed around so that users get the "what can I do" part first, and then the other stuff later.
Most users, once banned, probably know they beat some fun with a monkey at that point.
 
hey
Conclusion: Robert is unwelcoming :p
 
8:01 AM
I mean, <.< is he here? Yeah, I guess you could say that. >.> o.O
(I didn't say that)
At the time of writing that post though, it wasn't quite as common since we didn't have 9 million users.
Now that we are turning away everything and the kitchen sink it is important to start to phrase things from a more socially tuned perspective.
 
..... Am I blind or nowhere this new policies references the electronic opt out option for the arbitration?
also, the policy seems to refer to non-existent paragraphs?
 
I mean, yeah, you agree that if your data is lost to some hacker you can't legally do anything about it, but really, what could you do anyway? If you had a real lawyer you would have made your own user terms and submitted them for approval separately from the generic one everyone gets grouped with. Barring that, it is just you signing your life, content, and data away. Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.
Although according to the terms if Stack Exchange does somehow wrong you for less than $100 then they owe you that money back.
Perhaps that is why a class action seems scary. $99... 8.8 million users... first world problems.
> The section and paragraph headings in these Public Network Terms are for convenience only and shall not affect their interpretation.
 
8:18 AM
@TravisJ What's the avenue for requesting that?
 
> If you don’t want to be bound by the arbitration and class-action waiver provisions in this section, you must notify us in writing within thirty (30) days of the date that you first accept these Public Network Terms (unless a longer period is required by applicable law), and then you must litigate any disputes against us in accordance with the "Assignment and Jurisdiction" section below
 
@TravisJ I'm looking at it from more of a utilitarian perspective - the goal of the post is to get users who were banned to change their behavior and unban themselves.
 
A section which, unless I am still sleeping (very probable), isn't nowhere to be fount
 
Confrontational tone doesn't really make that happen. If the goal is to tell people to get out in the most socially acceptable way, the post works. But I hazard that's not the goal.
 
also it doesn't help that the paragraph once again only mentions the snail mail opt out option.
 
hey
8:26 AM
@user5389107 you could try mod-flagging and pinpoint which section you feel it needs to be improved?
at least I would try that, but I don't know if you have other concerns in addition to "help vampires"
 
Quick question: anyone received any form of notification mail about the ToS / legal section update?
 
hey
deja vu
7 hours ago, by hey
(yup, still not see email from SO. Last "Privacy Policy" email was from Quora
 
I posted this on MSO
(prepares for downvotes)
 
hey
May 16 at 10:37, by hey
@Derpy Planned: yes. Factual: no.
 
8:42 AM
@user5389107 I can guarantee you will get no vote - up or down from me.
Currently, I don't care much.
That was strike four, only a letter left until I've made my mind.
 
hey
Spotify after Quora, but not yet SO
 
@Derpy So bothered about the legalese crap?
 
@user5389107 no. And to be fair, I don't even think those can apply to me since I do indeed live in Europe, so good luck to force arbitration to me.
But I am pretty bothered by how all this transition has been handled.
And in the meantime I am also pretty bewildered about the new "Be nice" fashion trend that has been started by those tweets by April.
which oddly feels very empty to me, as the only purpose was to reduce problems and bad reputation instead of ... you know... try to be happy together?
 
hey
shinè
 
8:57 AM
I fear that no one will recognize this word here ^_^
 
@Derpy You know how it is
blunders happen, PR needs to happen, stuff works out in the end
 
@user5389107 and yet sadly I don't feel that PR reputation damage control is a worth reason for trying to be nice. Especially if you act like you are pretty annoyed to have to become "all girly, rainbow, hugs and unicorns" because some "annoyance" had to make a tweet post.
 
Consider that you can do both
 
both what?
 
You can address some longstanding opportunities for improvement with the site while at the same time getting decent PR
Being nicer to people usually works in that it is more likely to get them to do what you want.
Very few people are convinced to change by insults or confrontational behavior.
You can find the incident that spurred this wrongheaded obnoxious and in bad faith, but at the same time turn it into something positive in the long haul.
 
9:07 AM
And yet right now I seem to see more "fear" than "change". But again, don't worry, that's just probably my perceptions. No need to give them much weight.
 
Yeah sure, there's an uproar
People are defensive of stack and intrinsically wary to big change since "don't fix what ain't broke (for what I use it for)" is a valid stance to take
 
And out of curiosity then, what you think the problem is in what you just stated?
 
I don't really have one, I sympathize
I think some changes can be meritorious, but need to be applied with care. Stack seems to agree
 
sorry, that probably wasn't clear enough. You said that
 
I think a lot of the outrage is due to the ... a little unfortunate ... wording of the blog post, that came across a lot differently then what jay intended
 
hey
9:12 AM
Until half of SE population disappears, this fear will continue.
 
> there's an uproar (because) people are defensive of stack and intrinsically wary to big change since "don't fix what ain't broke (for what I use it for)" is a valid stance to take
^ I meant: do you think there is a problem in this this and if yes, what problem do you see?
 
I think it's a valid perspective and people are justified in taking it
I think a lot of it is caused by miscommunication though, due to the wording of the blogpost and subsequent meta war
Stack seems to agree that changes need to be done with care
 
I see...
So, to be more direct...
> "don't fix what ain't broke"
you think we have the right to say we aren't.. broken?
 
Personally I think we have some avenues for improvement
 
@Derpy ...but people feel it is broke.
 
9:15 AM
But SO is not a cesspit
Some orthogonal changes where we can improve the image and guidance on the site while keeping the successful core intact
Then again my opinion on it means preciously little :p
 
hey
What I have observed: we succeeded in reducing name-calling comments
What I don't think can be fixed: prevent blunt comments being perceived offensive
 
You can work language to being blunt and nice at the same time
I agree it's unfair to expect that of regulars but the regulars are the one thing stack has any influence on
new users ain't going to care
 
And yet as I said above, I think that the reduction is mostly because people fear the ban hammer.
>
“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”

― Robert E. Howard
I fear we are just making users once again scared by the mace, non really changing them.
 
@Derpy They don't want change, they want an answer to their question. They don't want downvotes, they want an answer to their question. They don't want clarification comments, they want an answer to their question. They don't want rude comments, they want an answer to their question. They don't want nice comments, they want an answer to their question.
 
hey
Anyway,
> I feel like we should take a hint from compilers. They tell you what happened in a very precise, non-judgmental way so you can learn and move forward instead of feeling bad or inadequate for making a mistake. -- from Twitter
 
9:23 AM
@MartinJames I... think you haven't really got my point I fear.
 
@Derpy You're probably right. I am prepared to believe that name-calling comments have reduced. I can also believe that comments overall have been reduced, 'rude' or not. I call that a win.
 
hey
@hey kind of funny this was posted as a reply under her tweet. Conclusion: have no empathy, emotion, at all.
 
Error #01, requirementDump detected in paragraph 1, question-handling terminated with action downClose vote

Error #02, homeworkDump detected in paragraph 1, question-handling terminated with action downClose vote

Error #03, basicBadSyntax detected in paragraph 1, question-handling terminated with action downClose vote

Error #04, FAQduplicate detected in paragraph 1, question-handling terminated with action downClose vote
2
 
@hey if more people listened to error messages...
 
hey
ErrorMessage.SE: a high quality repository of error messages and how to fix it.
 
9:31 AM
Error #05, multipleDuplicate detected in paragraph 1, question-handling terminated with action downClose vote

Error #06, noResearch detected in paragraph 1, question-handling terminated with action downClose vote

Error #07, missingInputData detected in paragraph 1, question-handling terminated with action downClose vote

Error #08, missingErrorMessages detected in paragraph 1, question-handling terminated with action downClose vote

Error #09 missing outputData in paragraph 1, question-handling terminated with action downClose vote
I made a large list of such error messages, complete with subsections for different languages, but a lot of users did not seem to appreciate the idea, for some reason:)
 
@hey Oh wow the start of the thread twitter.com/aprilwensel/status/998378431178985473 makes no sense..**doing it wrong** hurts people??
 
9:47 AM
@SurajRao folk need to stop obsessing with her if we disagree with her approach ;p
 
@SurajRao it isn't just "doing it wrong".
most of the time it is
> ye are doing it wrong, noob
 
@Derpy thats not what is mentioned in the tweet...
 
"You didn't even try, noob" is also pretty common
Might be correct but also pretty unhelpful
Since the likely response to that is "well screw you"
 
@JourneymanGeek yup moving on :P
 
@JourneymanGeek I agree, obsessing over tweets is unhelpful
 
9:50 AM
I'd say though
 
If someone wants to make a cogent argument, I'm sure we'll hear about it through other mediums
 
rudeness is kinda against the spirit of SE
We have this old rule "Don't be a dick"
 
@hey And then you still have people complaining about crap like this: github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/41646 ("#[allow(bad_style)] is a rather rebuke-y shame-y annotation on code.")
 
Also rudeness is noise.
We hate noise, almost more than we hate fun
 
That's a good perspective to take to win people over @JourneymanGeek
 
9:51 AM
@user5389107 gotta tailor the message to the audience :)
 
If you approach it from an utilitarian perspective you'll get the folks onboat who disagree with the whole surrounding argument of the blog post / the twitter threads
 
hey
and Google removed 'Don't Be Evil' clause from its code of conduct :)
 
... and embark for a gray pinata of empty "kindness" like the one I was talking about before
 
I think a lot of people are afraid SO will turn into a hugbox and quality will suffer. If you approach it from a "rudeness is noise and unconducive to our goal of improving quality" angle it's more likely to garner support.
 
9:53 AM
@hey that might be apocryphal
@user5389107 here's the thing. Sometimes I come across things I want to close.
then someone goes "But ... maaaybe"
and I end up learning something new off a reading a error message as a service question....
 
A whole lot of people want SO to be a pure meritocracy
So you have to frame arguments with that goal in mind to convince them
Because it doesn't trivially follow from the argument made in the blog post
 
I think I'll have to agree to disagree by now. To me this argument is mixing two needs: reducing rude behavior on the site and making the site users nicer. Those aren't the same thing.

You probably can reduce rudeness by force, ban threats and the such. Or by tricking them with a "different" utilitarian approach (rudeness is noise, like suggested before).
That said, if your purpose was to make them understand the value of being nice... that is a whole different problem fear won't probably be able to solve
That said... I am sorry to have started this long argument. Especially since as I said before right now I can't really say I care what direction we will take.
> oh, BTW, errata: the ToS does refer to the ability of opting out via an e-mail
 
10:26 AM
@TimPost is meta.stackexchange.com/legal/terms-of-service still a WIP? I think it is missing some CSS sheet right now. It seems to display correctly on stackoverflow.
 
10:53 AM
@ThiefMaster [allow(crazy_cat_person)]
 
Anonymous
You can set your name in Teams to the empty string.
 
@user1114 I'd rather set it to 🦄✨🐱‍👤
 
Anonymous
I'm afraid that that is not allowed.
 
unicorn... sparkling.... cat.... person.
Are those Rarity and Capper?
 
supposed to be read as Unicorn vs. Ninjacat
@Derpy 🦄✨🐉
 
11:07 AM
@Mgetz that's clearly Discord trolling Twilight
 
I was trying to go for rarity and spike
that's the problem with emoji
 
status: too serpentine
probably this would have worked
🐲
by zooming.
a lot.
because it looks more like a dog face than a dragon one
 
Something fishy going on: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/368368/578411 ? Does that need SE Dev attention?
 
11:24 AM
If you really need it, I could use my crystal ball to foresee the reply
 
@rene never trust the client side
 
@Derpy please do ;)
 
> not a problem, the user wouldn't be able to reply to the confirmation mails, return when you have actual data that suggest an issue / abuse
probably followed by
> also know that attempting to game the system like what you seem to be doing for fun/research/exercise is a good way to have your account banned
 
sounds plausible
@Taryn with the risk I raise the alarm for nothing, you might want to check: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/368368/…
 
hey
If that's really the case... Perhaps that's also how our Turkey friend hacked users? Or was it thru GitHub credentials?
 
11:54 AM
I don't think it is even an attack vector, unless you have access to the email accounts
 
12:18 PM
where should one report broken links on stackmod.blog ?
 
@Derpy which link?
 
That fun feeling when you type of a question and immediately realize the answer
 
Anonymous
12:36 PM
May 15 at 16:22, by user1114
The "Contact Us" form doesn't send an email confirmation. That's bad.
 
@ArtOfCode ^
 
@Derpy Blog Overflow doesn't exist any more... throw up a meta post
 
either wrongly typed or rotten, the link is still broken :P
Where shall one report that?
 
1 min ago, by ArtOfCode
@Derpy Blog Overflow doesn't exist any more... throw up a meta post
 
aaaah, ok, I miss-interpreted your post.
I had it as "I have found a meta post that claims that Blog Overflow doesn't exist anymore"
also....
> Send an e-mail to team@stackoverflow.com with the subject of 'opt out of arbitration' and a link to your profile in the body. That's it, we'll handle everything from there. You'll get confirmation back via email.
this was taken from Tim original post on meta.
The new ToS :
>
Your written notification must be mailed to us at Stack Overflow, Attn: Legal Department, 110 William Street, Floor 28, New York, NY 10038 or by email notification at legal (at) stackoverflow.com. If you do not notify us in accordance with this paragraph, you agree to be bound by the terms of this section, including, without limitation, the arbitration and class-action waiver provisions, and also including such provisions in any modifications we make to these Public Network Terms after the date of your first acceptance. Such notification must include: (i) your name; (ii) your email addres
as you can see, it contradicts the previous message (legal (at) stackoverflow.com VS team (at) stackoverflow.com)
will the mails to team still be handled?
 
12:57 PM
I suspect if you sent it before the ToS went up, yes. Otherwise, send it to legal@
 
1:16 PM
@Derpy Yes.
 
@ArtOfCode but does the TOS invalidate your earlier opt out?
 
@TimPost so, was the other form based opt out option scrapped or the page is still incomplete? I see no mention of it
 
hey
The reply said: "you don't need to do anything", which I'd believe including "sending a new opt-out mail"? :|
 
@Derpy It's still being built
 
so yep, that isn't the final revision of the ToS. I'll wait.
 
1:31 PM
I'm sorry about this confusion, sometimes it's hard to make sure I'm in places where I get hit with all of the information I need (polling for it has become increasingly obsolete as we've grown in size). Please, nobody freak out over the ToS update stuff / emails not matching / not getting a reply for e-opt out immediately I'm looking into all of it.
3
 
@TimPost Have some music while you're fixing all of that youtu.be/h1qQ1SKNlgY
 
@TimPost I empathize. I have to handle this in my company and even in a small B2B client only organization it's a giant crapfest and disorganized as hell
FWIW while y'all could certainly do better it's been rather smooth so far
And also pretty receptive to community concerns
 
Whee! Don't we all love Tuesdays!
 
hey
It's not Monday, so I love it :p
 
I do not I have 2 days to send out 80k emails
 
1:39 PM
@Catija So Happy It's Tuesday?
 
At least it's already tuesday
 
@user5389107 I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that. I feel like there's been this undercurrent of mistrust for SE over the last weeks that makes me sad. I have a huge amount of trust for SE and I generally attribute any missteps to oversights or communication issues rather than malice.
 
My general perception is that they're trying hard
Nobody is perfect, things could be better, but I think the general air of "SE is evil now!" is unwarranted
 
@Derpy you inadvertantly revealed you're @SPArchaeologist
 
@TimPost Question: have you checked that you were indeed the one that pulled out the shortest straw? If I were you, I would check if some other staff member cheated in the drawing for the prestigious position of "ToS change manager" -_-'
@Mgetz which is very indeed common knowledge.
 
1:42 PM
@Catija it's my Friday, so only this week I love Tuesdays
 
@Derpy clearly it wasn't because I didn't know! also 👍
 
@Taryn Ha. Looking forward to your trip? I'm assuming you're going on a trip... Vegas?
 
@Catija yes, yes, and YES!!!
 
I hope you have an amazing time and get the break you deserve.
 
hey
(meanwhile, currently playing DDLC due to boredom)
 
1:47 PM
@Mgetz don't forget this.
Oct 5 '16 at 13:50, by Magisch
I swear derpy is lauren faust in diguise
in Shadow's Den, Nov 27 '14 at 14:31, by SPArchaeologist
@ShadowWizard maybe I am SweetWisher, maybe I am Magic. I could be Lauren Faust, or all that talk about UO could mean that I am Iolo...
 
@Derpy She's probably the best children's show creator in the last decade at least
 
@Catija thanks!
 
I'm still in aww of the Pony-Ball-Z episode
 
you doth qoute my old name
 
hey
you just exposed yourself
 
1:50 PM
@Mgetz don't underestimate the comics, too. If anything, just because they are even more over the top than the actual show. the writers there simply don't limit themselves.
 
@Derpy I never read them sadly
 
I don't get the hype for mlp
the art style and writing doesn't click with me at all
 
hey
For a game as simple as DDLC, my GPU worked up to 25%???
 
@user5389107 oh, the art style is just "keep it cheap". Flash based in order to keep animation costs low. Yet far better than the older generations by far
as for the writing...
 
@Derpy you saw this?
 
1:54 PM
it is on steam now?
 
That's a steam store link...
 
I know, I meant I didn't know it was now available on steam.
 
ah, ok. Sorry a bit out of it due to allergies this morning.
 
I heard about that game far before it made it to steam.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ if you need a telekitty chicken picture fix there are some in the lounge
 
1:59 PM
BTW, it originally used the official show characters, before it was reworked to avoid C&D notices
I'll leave you the pleasure of discovering WHO designed the new characters.
 
@Derpy Oh I'm well aware, IIRC she did the main storyline too
 
@Mgetz were you also aware of ... this?
 
@Derpy I was not, surprised they haven't gotten a C&D honestly
 
@Mgetz on what basis? to be fair, they don't use official names or anything similar
 
@Derpy Equestiria?
 
hey
2:04 PM
™?
 
@Mgetz I think they discussed that too, then decided to keep it because it was one of the thing that wasn't trademarked.
To be fair, I am not sure the actual game even mention the name, so it would be easy to switch.
also, it it the name of the game. They don't hide that they took inspiration from the show. They just don't use much of the show actual content other than some similarities and general concepts.
 
hey
@SmokeDetector question asked for "Is there programming language in Portuguese?", answer said "yes! here it is"... can't help...
 
@user5389107 and before I forget what I was saying... As for the writing, you probably would be surprised by some of the episode plots. While most of them are indeed of the "slice of life" kind, there are a good amount of weird ones that you wouldn't expect in a "kid show"
like a remake of the Harrison Bergeron story, for example
 
idk, I don't like most shows in general
I prefer books
 
and... the comics are even worse.
 
2:15 PM
you can fit a more complex and nuanced story into a book so I like it better
 
@Mgetz If you ever get the opportunity, get an hold on the "Siege of the Crystal Empire" story ark of the comic (which gives Sombra the backstory he deserved and a much nicer ending) or the Accord one.
 
be grateful you never saw the "remind DroidDev that he should watch MLP" feature from my old bot
that said...
I do realize we may annoy other users here, so if you have any other MLP related message for me @Mgetz fell free to post it in the other room.
 
hey
2:33 PM
For a room that talks about random SE policies, cats, chickens, horses, daily lives, waffles, or even brown... MLP is just another spice to have~
 
the chickens have left, the cat is missing. Also I already had my share of annoyed users yelling because of the avatar (on other rooms, do yourself a favor and spare yourself the time to attempt to track them down) , I don't feel the need to annoy anyone here.
 
Meow?
 
hey
2:49 PM
> We'll begin testing these in at some point this week (beginning 20 May, 2018) [...]
had to turn my brain reading "at some point this week" and a past date, posted in the future.
it's a valid expression though...
 
19
Q: Attempt at formulating verb tenses when time travel is involved?

PhrogzThe Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has an amusing section on the problems associated with verb tenses when time travel is involved. It has several examples which appear to be constructed for their humorous sound instead of any attempt at sensible rules. You can arrive (mayan arrivan on-when...

 

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