Tavern on the Meta

Karl Knechtel

00:30

okay, seriously, what would it take to get politics.SE mods to actually enforce something resembling the code of conduct?

(or, like, their entire bloc of regulars to take ideas like basic civility and courtesy seriously)

Andreas moved to Codidact

01:57

Heh?

Journeyman Geek

@KarlKnechtel Well. Politics :D

BUT there sometimes a little leeway in rules as written to, well, enable the site to be used

Nothing kills a community faster than someone swinging around rules without understanding the ground situation

Andreas moved to Codidact

02:25

6

A: Why is Israel allowing the mistreatment of Palestinian prisoners in its hospitals?

Patients at the Sde Teiman hospital are kept blindfolded and permanently shackled to their beds by all four limbs, according to several medics responsible for treating patients there. Shackling dangerous criminals to hospital beds is standard practice all over the world. The US does it as well...

This?

I mean, we had people in The Tavern right here, defending the starvation of the entire civilian population on Gaza, because the food could possibly end up getting consumed by members of Hamas.

Nobody came after them with the CoC for the support of a genocide. I tried arguing against it, but I was too shocked that I’d even experience the presence of such an opinion.

Journeyman Geek

03:02

→ 31 messages moved to Chimney

Feeds

03:39

Buildings constructed from softer materials were damaged by chili pepper impacts to the storm's high Richter-Fujita-Scoville-Mohs hardness rating.

Journeyman Geek

04:16

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact @KarlKnechtel I'd invoke the vegas rule here - that issues on a site is best handled in the context of the site

Well not about the tavern thing

I'd also point out if mods suspect a major COC issue - we'd generally want to escalate it to the community team, and the contact us link is open for anyone to use in situations like this if you think the chat ROs or local mods are missing things, either accidentally or other reasons.

Journeyman Geek

05:22

→ 2 messages moved to Chimney

Andreas moved to Codidact

06:11

mhm…………

Neh.

Tinkeringbell

07:36

Good decision

A-Tech

08:06

Since when do deleted posts not count towards reputation? Is that new or did I just miss that?

Journeyman Geek

Its always been the case except when its an old post with some minimum (I want to day +3) score

Its documented on the site somewhere ...

11

Q: Conditions for keeping reputation in case of post deletion

In an answer for Deleted Question: Impact to Reputation, it's quoted that reputation earned from posts with score ≥ 3 "visible on the site for ≥ 60 days" would be retained despite their deletion. I clicked on the linked FAQ and the following text puzzled me. Are there exceptions? Occasionally ...

feels like a good place to start @A-Tech

529

Q: How does deleting work? What can cause a post to be deleted, and what does that actually mean? What are the criteria for deletion?

What circumstances can cause a question or answer to be deleted, and what does that actually mean? How can a post be deleted? When can't I delete my own post? Can I still see my post even after it's deleted? Can I see a list of my deleted posts? How can I undelete one of my posts? What does dele...

support faq deleted-questions deleted-answers deleted-posts

seems to be the canonical

Shadow Wizard

10:18

@JourneymanGeek yeah and looks like you and @Starship going to lose some rep soon as result. :/ (the answers here)

Journeyman Geek

10:29

@ShadowWizard honestly, at this point, I don't 'really' care about rep

If it helped the user in question, I think I got the value I expected from what was a fairly quick and banal answer :D

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek very noble. ;)

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard I mean, at this point, its basically a number, I'll get a bigger large number, a smaller small number over people who're less active than they used to be, and Its not like there's any extrinsic value to reputation :D

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek if only all people would think this way. :D

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard if I didn't I'd get bored or burnt out. :D

Shadow Wizard

11:15

Kabong

SPArcheon - on strike

13:41

@ShadowWizard to be fair, right now it would help more if everyone joined on a mass strike.

Spevacus

!!/tea Shadow

SPArcheon - on strike

every mod, every user, every bot.

SmokeDetector

@Spevacus brews a cup of passionfruit tea for @Shadow

Shadow Wizard

@SPArcheon-onstrike nah. Nothing will budge SE, not a strike, and not 1000 active users leaving.

SPArcheon - on strike

Not the "we angry, but we will continue running smokey and cleaning the floor for you"

Shadow Wizard

13:42

@SPArcheon-onstrike as Mith said, this time those angry enough would just leave, without a strike or even a notice.

And it's fair.

SPArcheon - on strike

@ShadowWizard naaah, it is better if they stay here on chat and eat up bandwidth and resources.

Shadow Wizard

I'm angry and annoyed at the company for long time, and honestly this new nail in the coffin doesn't change much.

@SPArcheon-onstrike well that's what we are doing, it's important role as well. :D

@Spevacus !!/thanks :)

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon-onstrike I don't really have the energy to organise a strike, and I think my current status quo, engagement wise works for me

Also its useful to keep track of how many of the "we hear you" noises translates to something, and not "we had no choice but to do the same things again!"

@ShadowWizard I wouldn't even say angry

angry means they care.

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek they translate into something?

Journeyman Geek

I'd be more worried about slow attrition

@SPArcheon-onstrike sometimes in the short term, they do

SPArcheon - on strike

13:49

> The Tantrum Fizzle
So your dwarves are too busy punching each other to do any work, and the casualties are mounting while the goblins just point and laugh. Think the final chapter of your fort's saga will be a short one? Don't be so sure. Sometimes a little old-fashioned anarchy is enough to cripple a fortress, but not destroy it.

With good defenses and enough supplies, a well-managed fortress can run quite a while without any player input. And when you find this out the hard way, a few in-game months of fistfights might not be entertaining enough to offset the fact that you're not able …

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek but they do care, for the community.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard and they think that at some level things can be saved

or at least want to watch the castle burn from the nice seats

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek suppose they reverse the decision on the data dump, and either put it back where it was before, or let anyone download it without having to register account. Would that really change anything?

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard its a symptom

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek yup.

SPArcheon - on strike

13:51

I know Dwarf Fortress well enough to know that death-by-tantrum takes ages. And I would prefer to see the site go out with a bang.

Journeyman Geek

(and done right, without messing everything else up MAYBE it might have been "ehhh" )

Shadow Wizard

@SPArcheon-onstrike bang it is. But won't happen.

SPArcheon - on strike

@ShadowWizard time to change wireless keyboard batteries.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard communities rarely die in a bank

and SE has a little more resiliance due to inertia

Shadow Wizard

@SPArcheon-onstrike that's why I don't use wireless keyboard or mouse. ;)

The only wireless thing I use it PS controller. For a PC, it never works well.

Even with full battery, it simply "miss" sometimes, any tiny blip in the transmission cause tiny delay, that is super annoying.

Journeyman Geek

13:53

@ShadowWizard honestly, I didn't care much about the datadump except what it stood for

"No matter how badly we mess up, there's a SLIGHT hope you can start somewhere else again, right where you left off"

Spevacus

The data dump doesn't really matter to me or 98%(?) of the userbase. The principle/spirit of the data dumps, and the fact that they're messing with it, does irritate me a bit, but ultimately it's something I don't have the energy to be upset about. There are people ready to effectively circumvent the limitations SE is placing on them, which is sufficient (if annoying in practice)

To clarify: Annoying in practice in the sense that building out the tooling to download a network-wide dump isn't easy

Shadow Wizard

@Spevacus yeah, about the same here. I'm annoyed by the blatant lies they spread about it.

Journeyman Geek

@Spevacus and that the changes were in service of the genAI products that 1) diverted community resources 2) cause people we work with to leave 3) may not be long term sustainable

Spevacus

@JourneymanGeek Yes, absolutely.

Journeyman Geek

and there's probably other things to soften the landing

have someone keep the dumps in escrow formally for example

Spevacus

13:57

What irritates me the most is that Stack Overflow has taken the position of wanting to be a pioneer of "Socially responsible AI" and to that end have allied with OpenAI and Google... But what is SO actually doing to pioneer socially-acceptable AI? I don't think that these changes to the data dumps achieve that much at all given that the companies they've allied with already have that data and already use it without attribution (in most cases)..

Journeyman Geek

@Spevacus its marketing :D

I don't believe most of that BS - its pressure tactics to get companies to pay rather than steal, since if they get the dumps now - its technically hacking, and I'm not even sure if they are aware of the datasource that was used by gen AI companies previously...

Spevacus

It's marketing that's pretending to not be marketing, and I'd like to be shown the fruits of this labor (if indeed there is labor) if I'm to accept any changes in the name of socially acceptable AI.

Journeyman Geek

which MIGHT have been justification for what they did

@Spevacus frankly at this point, show me the money. I'd like to see resources obviously plouged back into the community into a sustainable way

Spevacus

Here's hoping.

Journeyman Geek

I'll believe it when I see it. Its more likely I'll get that pup I really want, and the chances of that are nearly zero :D

KyleMit

14:01

Testing in prod...

Journeyman Geek

EEP

KyleMit

Well would you look at that

It works!

Journeyman Geek

whatever it is, it seems to work?

Spevacus

Aye, I can click that!

KyleMit

WE DID IT!

Journeyman Geek

14:02

gets the giant list of feature requests jk

KyleMit

23

Q: Some images uploaded in chat cannot be visited via the link

This is an intermittent failure and I cannot find a good way to reliably reproduce it. Some times when uploading an image in chat it shows up but the link leads to a page that says "oh no, that request didn't look right". Here is an example of such a message - the image embeds and shows up, but c...

bug status-planned chat images onebox

^ context

Spevacus

I was just about to link to that; I was hoping you'd get around to that one soon. Thanks for fixing it!

Oh, also, nice showing on the SO Podcast!

KyleMit

You as well @Spevacus! I was bummed to learn we weren't all recording together, but loved your segment!

Spevacus

Thanks! I also wish we had recorded together, and I considered shouting you out along with Yaakov. You two were the devs that I spoke with the most during the SG's beta and I enjoyed every second of it.

KyleMit

I know Yaakov really appreciated the shoutout and it was thoroughly earned. Super happy to have him get tons of well deserved credit

SPArcheon - on strike

14:06

@Spevacus the issue is that way you simply let them have their way, and next time - and you KNOW there will be a next time - they will be bolder to make something worse.

my fix was better....

> When bug strikes, just upload again.
Double the host space, double the fun.

KyleMit

So you're saying I should've just added the error message: "It looks like you've uploaded an image with a randomly generated guid that ends in 'b', please try again until that doesn't happen" :D

Spevacus

Yes

KyleMit

Oh, I could've got that out waayyyy quicker

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon-onstrike Well - sometimes you need to get the pitchforks, sometimes there's less loud approaches

I'm pretty sure there's going to be a few community run forks fairly quickly, and I'll eat my socks if there's no public archive or torrent in 6-8

SPArcheon - on strike

@KyleMit preferably something like this - neal.fun/password-game

Disclaimer. The "Fun" in the url... is a lie.

a dastardly big lie.

a cursed dark lie.

but you are a dev too, so probably you will try. See you in 6-8 months

KyleMit

14:15

Yes, exactly like that game. Gimme another 6-8 wks

Shadow Wizard

!!/coffee Kyle and cookies as well

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard brews a cup of ristretto for @Kyle

Andreas moved to Codidact

14:29

@JourneymanGeek Oh

Shaving away every little straw of reputation from @Journey’s face

SPArcheon - on strike

and btw comes from here

16

Q: Does one "shave" or "shear" a dog?

I was editing a question about the alleged dangers of shaving a dog. The associated pictures were like this: To me, this dog hasn't been shaved, i.e. removing all of the hair down to the skin, especially with a blade. This dog has been shorn - removing most - not all - of the coat with clippe...

word-choice

Andreas moved to Codidact

@SPArcheon-onstrike Wait, that’s the body, not the face!

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon-onstrike there's supposedly an extinct native american breed that literally had wool

SPArcheon - on strike

14:45

@JourneymanGeek it is called "sheep" and contrarily to popular belief it is not a dog breed

Journeyman Geek

Salish Wool Dog

The Salish Wool Dog, also known as the Comox dog or Clallam Indian Dog, is an extinct breed of white, long-haired, Spitz-type dog that was developed and bred by the Coast Salish peoples of what is now Washington state and British Columbia for textile production. == History == The remains of dogs that are a morphological match for the Salish wool dog has been found in archeological sites in Coastal Salish territory dating ~5,000 years ago. The small, long-haired wool dog and the coyote-like village dogs were deliberately maintained as separate populations The dogs were kept in packs of about 12...

Andreas moved to Codidact

@JourneymanGeek So the wool smells like dog?!

Journeyman Geek

beats me, they went extinct over a century ago

I'm not that old

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek going by your avatar, the only thing I expect from you is you being quite good at fetching back menhir

and I think I may have said this before

Journeyman Geek

sigh

No one's gotten that pup yet

SPArcheon - on strike

15:02

Dogmatix

Dogmatix () is a fictional white terrier dog who is a companion to Obelix in the Asterix comics. Dogmatix is a pun on the words dog and dogmatic. In the original French, his name is Idéfix, itself a pun on the French expression idée fixe (fixed idea) meaning an obsession. On January 6, 2021, it was announced that the character would have his own animated television series titled Dogmatix and the Indomitables. == Character synopsis == Dogmatix is the only animal among the main characters of the series. His role is minor and funny in most of the stories, significant mainly as a 'bone' of contention...

Journeyman Geek

I know :D

that's the same dog I linked the other day with the ~~menhir~~ bollards in the background

Journeyman Geek

15:39

hm

I am brainfarting

wasn't there a way to request a dump of your own data? As a JSON?

Journeyman Geek

15:50

ah, probably policies.stackoverflow.co/data-request but its too confusing

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek Noooooo how you dare. It is not confusing at all.

Journeyman Geek

I'll probably be asking a specific question on how to request a dump of your own data tommorrow :D

SPArcheon - on strike

Ok. You did it. I have reached the boiling point now.

They want hurt. They get hurt.

SPArcheon - on strike

17:03

@JourneymanGeek bomb dropped. Have Fun

0

Q: Please add some explanation for the available options on the Data Request page

This is a follow up to my two previous questions, "In the data request page, what does the "Object to Processing" request type do?" and In the data request page, what does the "Do not sell my information" request type do?, both still unanswered as July, 30th 2024. Today, an user on the Tavern cha...

feature-request legal privacy gdpr

Elements In Space

@starball I ended up winning that contest.

starball

18:00

@ElementsInSpace ay congrats!

Karl Knechtel

20:43

@JourneymanGeek the problem is that it isn't major, but it's persistent. every time, they ignore my flags and the most popular users say things I consider unacceptable

(and support each other in it)

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact presumably because they disagree that it qualifies as any such thing.

Shadow Wizard

@KarlKnechtel that's what we have the "contact" for, yeah.

Spevacus

If it's as bad as you say, I'd definitely consider a Contact Us request.

Karl Knechtel

I'll take it into consideration.

Shadow Wizard

Also, to be fair: saying e.g. "I don't think Israel is performing genocide" is not violation of the CoC because it's not calling for a genocide. It's as legit to say and think as the opposite opinion.

Karl Knechtel

right, it doesn't bother me that people express opinions I disagree with. but it does bother me that people a) insult demographic groups by ascribing motivations to them without evidence; b) respond belligerently when this is pointed out; c) falsely accuse me of holding political opinions I don't hold; d) when politely and clearly asked to stop c), respond with a "LOL" and a nerd emoji.

Shadow Wizard

20:49

But it's natural that Politics.SE would be more tolerable, otherwise it can't really exist. Or to be more accurate, the "red lines" there are wider. IMO.

Karl Knechtel

more tolerant. tolerable is rather more a matter of taste :)

that said I really do think that entertaining a wide range of dissenting opinions requires a more careful attitude towards courtesy and civil discourse.

Shadow Wizard

@KarlKnechtel I agree with b-e, but a) is problematic.

One can't really prove opinions.

Karl Knechtel

it can be done, but it certainly wasn't in the case I'm complaining about.

Shadow Wizard

@KarlKnechtel well yes, but it's really case-by-case.

Insults were always a weak spot in SE moderation.

Andreas moved to Codidact

21:06

@KarlKnechtel ?

Karl Knechtel

21:17

what I'm proposing is, you're going to have a hard time making the case that the users you're complaining about are "in support of a genocide", first because the terminology is in question, and second because relying on the terminology is glossing over the underlying moral question.

anyway, no, my initial complaint had nothing to do with that post (which also is 2 months old and doesn't seem to be attracting new commentary aside from one person who happened to come in today and add some evidence).

Spevacus

That answer's... Not great.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Spevacus Karl's reply to me, or the answer on Politics that I linked to, then chose to flag for R/A?

Spevacus

The answer you linked. Sorry, should've been more specific.

Andreas moved to Codidact

Well, I flagged it 18 hours ago, but considering the answer is 2 months old, won't surprise me if it gets rejected.

@KarlKnechtel Advocating for intentionally starving 2 million people to death is something I cannot respect.

Anyway, I've been lucky not to walk into such an opinion in a while, so there's nothing to follow up on there.

@KarlKnechtel I noticed your comments under the answers to the Donald Trump speech question a while later.

Karl Knechtel

21:50

regardless, I disagree that the answer you cited advocates any such thing. Unless you are proposing that Israeli hospitals have had to care for 2 million Palestinian patients, all treated this way?

but even then it would only rise to the level of apologism, not advocacy.

Andreas moved to Codidact

Those are two separate cases. That answer has nothing to do with this.

19 hours ago, by Andreas moved to Codidact

I mean, we had people in The Tavern right here, defending the starvation of the entire civilian population on Gaza, because the food could possibly end up getting consumed by members of Hamas.

The answer on Politics is not a part of that.

As for the answer on Politics, I never stated what is wrong with it, because I think it's quite self-evident.

Karl Knechtel

22:06

ah.

Andreas moved to Codidact

22:21

@KarlKnechtel Actually, since you do say that, yes, I think so. It is Israel's fault that Gaza is now struck by Polio, and does not have proper hospitals (because Israel intentionally destroyed every hospital there).

Journeyman Geek

23:52

→ 20 messages moved to Chimney

@SPArcheon-onstrike hm

That renders my question potentially obsolete and I was going to take a different tone :D

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