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12:24 AM
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog edited dupe list
@Rob barf?
@JourneymanGeek baby pee isn't very tasty
12:38 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard .... How do you know?
1:22 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Clearly, it's the best!
@Catija Ah, interesting. I was never really clear on that. That makes more sense, though I imagine it makes any sudden changes in the CM team all the harder on those who are still around.
Anyway, how's everyone doing?
I've been sick for the last few days. Finally feeling better today
4 hours later…
5:03 AM
2 hours later…
7:17 AM
@JourneymanGeek you'll know when having a baby boy :D
@SmokeDetector k
@SmokeDetector added spam link and user made another doubtful suggested edit as well, mod flagged.
35 messages moved to Chimney
@rene also, user stole avatar of a different person: timesnext.com/author/alexosian
btw, something from jon's tweet stuck out to me:
So this isn't a legit user, for sure.
> I also suspect our departure was not considered particularly momentous to people within the company who are tasked with communication. It was not unusual for a tweet to be flagged and for the people triaging such things to point to the small number of followers and ignore.
7:27 AM
@SmokeDetector k
So it's confirmed black and white that to actually get anything read by SE management you need to do it 1) on twitter or other social media and 2) have a large amount of followers.
Not sure what @JonEricson means by "communication" in that context. Something internal inside Stack Exchange, that used to work in the past when employees were leaving (either on their own will or not) and these days stopped working?
I think they just recently reorganized who is in charge of general communication at stack
and they're focusing on numbers. How many people will see what I write / say / respond?
7:54 AM
I accidentally totally and completely overslept.
OK.... going to make a pretty... weird (?) move. But I feel it's appropriate.
ugh.... in 16 hours.
@Mithical wish I could do that
@Magisch you can, then say you got ill
@Magisch The problem is I don't even feel like I got a good sleep
@ShadowTheBurningWizard needs a doctors note
7:57 AM
For me it's bit more complicated, hard to fake illness when your wife and kids can see you. ;)
and I'm a very bad liar
@Magisch even one day?? :/
@Magisch that's a problem. ;)
@ShadowTheBurningWizard yeap
@Mithical you need to sleep to get over the oversleep.
it's rather curious. On friday -> sat I slept 13 hours and was tired when waking up
8:01 AM
When the body doesn't need the sleep and you sleep anyway, think that's the result, yeah.
When battery is fully charged and you put in a charger anyway, it won't charge, and sometimes even just get drained. (if the charger isn't smart enough to detect battery status in real time)
@Mithical so how much did you sleep? It's OK, you can tell. ;)
Q: Why do we feel tired if we sleep excessively?

MySkyWhen we eat, finally we feel full. I know which mechanism causes the sensation of being full. But when we sleep excessively we often still want more sleep. Why does this happen? Is there a mechanism underlying this?

SE got it all.
What a great platform... so sad it's nearing its end. :(
8:17 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Yea, not likely
I just made an account on codidact
if at all possible I'll move over there at the earliest convenient time
@ShadowTheBurningWizard SE is nowhere near it's end, look how many people return to explain that they are never coming back.
8:37 AM
@Feeds should I be worried that SE managed to do both the "Not Great" and the "Very Bad" options?
8:48 AM
@Rob we'll see
This reminds me! Does Digg dig in my browsing history??
@Magisch ...important distinction: Codidact the platform does not exist yet.
@Mithical yeah, but they already have a forum
While I admire the efforts and the people involved in Codidact.... I'm afraid I'm not optimistic about it.
It takes more than that to build something that will attract millions of people.
It takes more than... what?
@ShadowTheBurningWizard You miss all of the shots you dont take
8:53 AM
When the final mass exodus hit aspfree forums, someone tried to exactly the same: a new forum, built in the spirit of the old forum while it was still good. It was called "Developer Barn", and the only users it ever had were, well, the friends of the one who built it. Nearly 0 external visitors.
@Mithical good people and dedication
Think most important missing thing is marketing?
Jeff had a good start with existing big platform that was migrated.
SO started as an announcement on someone's blog with a existing community that was overall not that big
Big blog.
It already had thousands of active users, so it was enough for a start.
I explicitly discouraged marketing it at this stage. Even without marketing, how often have you seen the name "Codidact" on MSE lately? I've seen it popping up a whole lot.
Anyway.... won't try to dis-encourage you all.... really really wish it will be a success! :)
@ShadowTheBurningWizard lets say it this way. It looks like Art is the project lead, which makes me think this will work out
8:57 AM
@Mithical SE certainly led me to the site. But it was pretty clear instantaneously that it was still in the early stages of development so there was no chance of any kind of disappointment.
or rather, it has a way above average chance of working out
@Magisch why so? He has a lot of supporters already?
I'm 100% sure it will work, technically, and will be totally beautiful and awesome.
But.... that's just not enough.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I know him and his leadership style. If anyone can make this work from a clean start, it's him. At least from all the people I know
Good! Fingers already crossed. :)
There are currently over 300 people in the Codidact Discord server, FWIW.
9:00 AM
That said... looks like I found the source of Shog's avatar... ;)
@Mithical I'll confirm my email this evening and then also join the discord. Might even give coding for it a go
@Mithical that's a good start.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Let's just all migrate to Legend Of Equestria. We can use the Sugarcube bill board to post our question there.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard does this mean that Shog is a pointy ears?
I always imagined him to be more of a dwarf. Big beard, battle axe, lot of ale....
The problem with Codidact... It's already behing hailed as THE site that's going to replace SE.
They've been at it since the Monica-gate. They don't have any functioning Q&A yet.
They have a template site running, and a standard forum installation
9:16 AM
I dont think anyone's expecting this to be done instantly
Rome wasn't built in a day.
No, but I expect realistic expectations
lets just say even a BBB bulletin board with a dream is more appealing then SE right now
There's a billion of those out there already, many of them with more traffic than codidact. Why bother building a new one then?
Don't mix up the forum with Codidact the project.
9:17 AM
I'm not
codidact is setting out to become a competitor with SE when it finishes, iirc
@Magisch Yea, but they have no business plan
They have no plan to draw users over
it's probably good to hedge your bets and keep expectations contained until it does, though
The forum is where coordination building is happening. The Q&A site does not exist yet and probably won't for a bit - it's being built, slowly, from the ground up, with an eye on doing things right the first time.
@Cerbrus it's an open source project.
9:18 AM
That doesn't answer the concern
What do you mean by "business plan"?
I was involved early on. I raised concerns like, "how and why would users move from SE to codidact?" Those concerns were dismissed with something like "Codidact will be better, they'll come"
I don't know what exactly they're planning but with so many high profile people formerly from SE (both volunteers and ex employees) involved it'll probably not be impossible to generate some reach
Don't underestimate SE's inertia
Don't overestimate SE's inertia
myspace seemed impossible to displace until it lost the majority of its userbase in less then a year
9:21 AM
Yea, you name one large example that died
Facebook isn't dead
to some prick from harvard and his third rate networking site
YouTube isn't dead
People claim websites are going to end all the time
And their thing is gonna replace it
The arrogance in such a claim is overwhelming
@Cerbrus oh, I think that concern will auto-solve itself if codidact manage to have a working platform. Courtesy of SE current direction.
@BlueSoul This is exactly my point
Codidact isn't automatically gonna be great because of SE's failures
People should stop connecting those data points
Codidact should be great because of it's own merit's
9:23 AM
Fixed :D
@Cerbrus Indeed. Which is why it's taking a long time to build, because people are focused on building it the right way.
And which is why people should stop praising it like the coming of <holy figure>
show, don't tell
Open sourcing I think is the stepping stone to that. I can now only hope that there aren't going to be 1-3 really loud people trying to control it all in a very closed source way.
I'm cautiously optimistic
@Cerbrus nope, but it can easily capitalize on those. It needs it's own merits, you are right... but in the current scene they have also the advantage that SE userbase is alienated.
9:25 AM
I know a lot of the people involved, they're the sensible sort who I would trust with such an endeavour, so I'll follow it with interest
and if it actually starts working out you can bet I'm gone from here as soon as possible
So far for my rant
@BlueSoul Only the meta regulars are
With that, I don't mean they will magically win "because they are the holy savior", I just mean that this is a perfect moment for anyone to win over the SE users.
@Cerbrus I... wouldn't be so sure. I am keeping an eye on many places, and I don't see just meta regulars be angry.
@Magisch Some of the people that started the project are (imo) inexperienced
The meta regulars are just the angry ones you will meet on meta.
@BlueSoul deal! And glad to see your new name, much better than the previous. :D
(@Blue is my favorite color ;))
9:28 AM
@Cerbrus Others are among the most experienced of the network. There's a lot of people involved.
@BlueSoul never saw, hat is hiding his ears... :D
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Well, in Undertale the blue soul is the soul of Integrity.
@terdon I just have to make sure everyone does what I say and it'll be fine /s
@terdon In building large websites?
scalable websites?
9:29 AM
@Cerbrus yeah, sounds like my concerns either, see above.
@Cerbrus Some, yes. Including a few folks who used to work here. They mostly cannot provide code, for obvious reasons, but they can help with infrastructure and architecture.
But "if we won't try it will never happen" is good enough reason to try. :)
Then imma try to become president of the world.
@terdon Oded? (or is it a secret for now for privacy reasons?)
@Cerbrus Can't do a worse job than some of the people in positions like that
9:31 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard At least three I can remember off the top of my head, possibly more.
@Cerbrus sure, anyone can.
@Mithical Wanna bet?
Anyway, we will see I suppose.
I can think of Oded, Jeremy, and... who else?
@Cerbrus speaking real for a second here we have a literal orange conman running the US right now and it's not imploding yet
9:32 AM
balpha isn't likely to take part.... or is he?
and reasonably competent adult human (I'd count you among those) would probably be able to do it
Yet right now... a forum with 10 users probably could provide more help than the whole SharePoint network site....
@Magisch Maybe they should build a new continent to replace the old one. "New USA"
@Magisch luckily the infrastructure of USA bureaucracy is solid enough to sustain such hits.... for now.
btw, @ShadowTheBurningWizard - left you a reply in the other room since you asked.
9:36 AM
@Cerbrus Built by the Dutch, not only because the Dutch are quite good at giving the sea the finger but also just as a historical joke.
@BlueSoul yup, need to read it, it's long. ;)
@Cerbrus NewSA?
Not even original... amazon.com/United-States-Trump-President-America/dp/125023722X (No, didn't check before.)
It just.... fits.
Same in Israel, PM acts like he owns the country and the country is there to serve him, not like he's leading it or (gods forbid! ;)) he should serve it.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard do it quickly, it is Monday....
New episode is probably coming out soon.
(New SE episode, I mean)
9:58 AM
@Cerbrus Building the thing... might not be as hard. I'm mostly wondering how good it'll be at being a place where new communities can be build, vs. being a place where you can plant existing communities...
10:14 AM
@BlueSoul nah, drama these days starts on Friday
@ShadowTheBurningWizard depends on the drama
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Can confirm, there was a period where I would go to work on Monday, open meta and then sort of had to hope there wasn't a mountain of angry meta posts to wade through.
Today is Blue Monday. I'm sure it'll live up to it's name ;)
@rene almost all of the SEDE PRs have been handled. Thanks for the heads up
@Gimby no drama today folks
@Magisch 😢
@Tinkeringbell I got a new office laptop 😁
10:26 AM
@JourneymanGeek Our office turned off the Citrix servers. It's crazy busy here.
Which was delivered to me at the work HQ parking lot...
And that reminds me... I should make an appointment to get rid of 1 of my office laptops.
And apparently our reception will not sign for it so I took grab both ways.
... last monday was "Make Your Dream Come True Day" - I think the only one who can claim he got his dream true that day is a very specific troll that shall not be named.
@YaakovEllis hey, it's very early in the day still ;)
10:27 AM
And thus us the day my friend was picking up my not spoilt 4k monitor...
thank you for the stuff!
So .... Not blue. More white hot busy 🤣
@AndrasDeak US office is closed today. And all I have planned is to release a feature that should make y'all happy. So I really do not expect there to be any drama
@YaakovEllis hehe, noted :) And looking forward to the next thing! Thanks :)
@YaakovEllis Not your fault, and I doubt your bosses care, but I'm extremely bitter about what stack did to all of us. Usualy, I don't trust companies as far as I can throw them. Usually, I regard everything produced by someone in their official capacity of anything with intense distrust and study it to identify in which way it is self serving (it almost always is). I used to make an exception to that personal rule of mine for SE, because it didn't feel like yet another soulless silicon valley
10:29 AM
@YaakovEllis SE community: Hold my beer!
@JourneymanGeek I think I'll baptise this day 'white noise monday' and put on my headphones soon if this meeting on the workfloor doesn't stop ;)
outfit. I now learned that there are no exceptions.
There are always exceptions, but they might not last.
@Magisch I understand. Still makes me sad. And I personally do hope (with reason, based on what i see) that things can still be turned around. We will not end up in the same place where we were. But I do think that we can end up in a place that is much better than this, hopefully with some trust regained as well
@YaakovEllis has everyone seen Avengers: Endgame or is it too soon for a reference? ;)
10:31 AM
@YaakovEllis Do you honestly believe that?
I really, really hope you're right.
yeah, I hope too
But I can't imagine a way you could be :(
... "No drama because the office is closed" ...
@terdon I believe that it can happen. Whether or not it will happen, and how it manifests itself is still to be seen.
You are a greater optimist than I then. Good for you!
(and I mean that, I'm not being sarcastic)
10:33 AM
I'm not quite sure how I actually let it get this far. I'm pretty ashamed that I used to tell people about how here was different, how you weren't just feeding some corporate machine free labor. I identified with trying to help and build something for people that would last. In the end all I did was increment a number on someone else's shareholder value, and the thin pretense of cooperation was thrown out as soon as it was no longer convenient. Not just that, the people who actually had
Why ashamed? It used to be true.
yeah, don't sweat it
out interests at hand were also thrown out - most of them. I believe you are operating in good faith and want to see the mission fulfilled, but I don't share your optimism that it can be done. I'm also mad at myself for getting sucked into this against what should have been my better judgement
until a few years ago things were getting worse but not in a nose dive at all
quality was dropping but only due to lack of actions rather than proactive destruction
@Magisch And no, your analysis is flawed: what we did was help make the internet a better place and collect a truly impressive library of knowledge. And we had fun doing it! Those aren't wasted years, or wasted effort. Sure, SE might piss it all away, but that doesn't invalidate the preceding decade.
10:36 AM
@terdon +1 for helping make the Internet a better place.
I for one definitely do not give credence to things that I have seen along the lines of SO trying to move things into a place where sites can be shut down, or where there can be a paywall or other things like that. From what I have seen (on the inside), this just will not happen.
the knowledge that you contribute to help others will continue to fulfill that role
@YaakovEllis my personal worst case scenario is just mostly ignoring all the small sites 😁
Which was basically the last few years
My personal worst case is a paywall. The combination of i) forced arbitration and ii) forced relicensing makes that feel too likely.
@YaakovEllis wasn't it @Nick's job to handle SEDE pull requests? You'll end up stealing all his roles.... :-D
@terdon maybe. I'm probably speaking in no small part out of hurt
10:40 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I think that Nick and Taryn handled these PR requests (though I now have access to do it as well in the future). I just got the ball rolling on them
I expect EA and its like to screw me, they've never done anything different. What SE does feels uncomfortably closer to the betrayal of a close friend
@YaakovEllis hopefully a paper ball? ;)
But if your friend becomes an asshole, that doesn't invalidate your previous decade of friendship.
@terdon 100% honest, I know of absolutely nothing in the works related to a paywall. And I think that I am on top of just about all of the things being planned.
10:42 AM
@Magisch SE management wasn't a friend since Jeff left. Not that he was a friend of all users, but at least he read all the requests by himself.
As far as forced relicensing, I cannot say anything at the moment other than that the right folks internally are finally looking into it (I am helping where I can to get the ball rolling). Nothing was done with bad intentions. It is just a mess that needs to be cleaned up (and the mess with licensing is years old, did not just start with this)
Now as Shog (or was it Jon?) said, those who make the real decisions, never read meta or any of the community requests by themselves.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard with a site this big, it is impossible for one person to read all of the requests themself. Believe me, I have tried. What was possible in 2010 is not possible today. Scaling can really hurt sometimes.
@YaakovEllis OK. I would have been surprised if it were in the works now. I just wouldn't be surprised if it happens sometime in the future. Especially if the company is sold or simply continues in the current trend. But thanks for allaying that fear, at least!
@YaakovEllis you know it's really unfair of management to put you in the position of being the one that responds to these concerns. I massively appreciate it but they're doing you a disservice by leaning on you sticking your neck out like that
10:43 AM
> @ShadowTheBurningWizard with a site this big, it is impossible for one person to read all of the requests themself. Believe me, I have tried.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I know for a fact that that is not a true statement. True, they aren't on meta all the time. But I know that hot meta issues are very widely read internally, all the way up to the top
@Mithical SharePoint has 4 mods. One doesn't seem to have logged in since last August, one since early December and the other two based on their profile are in "review only" mode.
@YaakovEllis I really want to give you a cookie for that!
@YaakovEllis well, at least you read part. It's Infinity more than those in the ivory tower... :)
(and I'm afraid your thrown balls can't reach that high)
@Magisch I haven't been asked to or put on the spot to do so. I can stop anytime (that is what I tell myself anyway)
10:44 AM
Guys, keep in mind that employees that aren't responding might still be reading FR / bug report posts
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I throw pretty hard
@Magisch I don't think they asked him to be here, it's 100% his own good will.
@YaakovEllis That's how it starts, you know. "I don't have a problem", and "I can stop whenever I want". Next thing you know, you're living under a bridge, using a solar charger for your phone and begging passers by for upvotes...
I feel more sorry for those that are used to communicate on meta about policy...
@YaakovEllis that's.... changing base assumptions. I have to think. Thanks!
10:46 AM
@terdon look who's talking: we're both still here!
@Cerbrus absolutely. And also, there are years of built-up anxiety relating to communications on Meta. There have been employees in the past who experienced severe anxiety over it. I think that things have improved since then. But it is very hard for people to wade in there (and then it is easy for responses to be so guarded that they end up not reading well)
@Magisch Hey, as I said in another room today, I am slowly dealing with my addiction. As of today, I only have 3 SE tags pinned instead of the 10 I used to have. Yay!
@YaakovEllis if you'll stop I'll grab you back. ;)
I don't think it's actually a good idea for employees to start re-engaging meta right away
@YaakovEllis Yes, and that is 100% on us and not on SE. :(
10:47 AM
anything they say will be shouted at from a thousand megaphones. Unless you have nerves of steel, any resolution will take time for wounds to heal
@YaakovEllis That's something I honestly don't understand. "severe anxiety" over users online...
@Cerbrus being told you're bad and redacted words here online can be as bad as hearing them IRL, for some.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard And then you get a mod involved that kicks the crap out of the user for being naughty
Especially when it comes from people you value and respect. That's what @Yaakov talk about, I assume.
10:49 AM
@Cerbrus maybe it doesn't affect you, but words have power
I mean, there's no excuse to be rude to someone handling your bug report
@Cerbrus that's exactly what people are doing, sometimes. And not just now.
there's a certain truth to a thousand constructive but upset criticisms feel like harassment, even if they're really really not
I think everyone can learn to "deal" with online interaction, provided the people they work with handle it correctly
@Cerbrus that's new, keep in mind it was very rare before.
10:50 AM
@Magisch And that's when you need a coworker to tell you to read into the facts, and ignore the passionate way many people are saying it
@YaakovEllis :)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone gets severe anxiety over it, that person has been left alone to "deal with it" waaaaaaay too long
@Cerbrus Given the crap I've deleted ... I do. Trust me.
@Cerbrus I do not agree with the conclusion here
Someone can be getting plenty of support and still have anxiety over something
But then there's a point where that employee probably shouldn't be dealing with meta
And that's okay.
(I'm not saying it's okay for people to be rude, mind you)
10:54 AM
Being assured that we're being heard is nice, but when there are little to no responses and we continue to be told that our feedback is unwanted, it's a bit hard to maintain faith. Especially when we hear that management is interfering with community management and them blaming the CMs for it.
It's just... "Meta is toxic" isn't an excuse to stop listening to feedback. Hammer down on the toxic users, make it a place for proper feedback, ya know?
But that's where SE Inc's disconnect with the community comes in, I think
Again, Tink, Yaakov, you're doing awesomely here
Tink is not an employee...right?
As far as we know. ;)
good point
Employee or not, Tink is awesome :P
11:00 AM
@Cerbrus we've debated that ad nauseam. No need to bother Yaakov with it when he's nice enough to come here on his own accord
Meh, I was just rambling
It's not a criticism at his address.
I know
@YaakovEllis I have been following along ;) Thanks!
But we shouldn't put him between a rock and a hard place. We know for a fact it's hard enough already.
> A new CEO came on board in fall 2019, and he is remaking the company. It is becoming autocratic, bureaucratic, top-down, secretive and full of newly hired middle managers who don't know, value or respect the company's history and culture. The company was founded almost as an experiment to see if they could create a company with a great engineering culture, and stackoverflow.com was almost a public service with a mission to help software developers. Now the focus is on revenue, revenue, revenue and we're paying lip service to the original vision and mission.
11:13 AM
quote from where?
@Mithical sauce?
@JourneymanGeek google search I assume.
I wouldn't entirely blame the new CEO. The rot started earlier
@Mithical oh, I see I was not the only one who looked there.
11:15 AM
@JourneymanGeek perhaps.... perhaps when Joel stopped caring? Or started to plan his leaving?
@ShadowTheBurningWizard You know... during the weekend I though of another possible explanation.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I wish I knew
It all started after we removed baba advertisement.
We made fool of them, and now their black magic has put an hex on all of us.
@BlueSoul hahahaha... hehe.. lol.
Or maybe that Indian Hacker Tim love so much.
(or.... maybe they're the same!)
@ShadowTheBurningWizard when someone's eyes first turned into dollar signs
11:22 AM
@AndrasDeak Euro might be good enough too
It's worth more than dollar, after all.
You can't be obsessively profit-oriented and not evil
@AndrasDeak Scrooge McDuck
What if the goal is to keep the place running, and the only other option is closing it down? Does the end justify the means?
@JourneymanGeek From what Joel said in the interview, hiring a new CEO was part of the push towards the IPO and more revenue. So the new CEO is certainly related to it, and his job is to push this change, but he is not the actual origin, that's probably the board and investors
@ShadowTheBurningWizard The other result is not to close it down though...
11:24 AM
@Cerbrus sounds tasty, where can I buy? ;)
@AndrasDeak Belly?
@BlueSoul ?
@ShadowTheBurningWizard ??
@BlueSoul go fish
11:26 AM
blu blu blu
My fish became obsessed with food, whenever I just go near them they open their mouths and expect food.
@BlueSoul that's not dollar signs, it's B with Integral sign over it.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard see here
@BlueSoul gold coins are more solid
11:45 AM
@Cerbrus Ever heard of 'blameless root causes'?
11:56 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Scrooge would have been so banal and expected.
@Tinkeringbell nope?
from the recently deleted spam....
> Avoid alcohol or liquids.
Yep, you heard well. Never drink again.
Liquids are bad.
water.... is evil.
I hope no real human was involved in writing that mess.
Depends on your definition of writing
("water bottle". Warning: may cause sweating, peeing, and not being dehydrated)
...I think the army has a bug in their site, which is giving me an issue and now I might need to call them. *sigh*
12:22 PM
@Mithical 009?
@Cerbrus It's an interesting thing, but I have a meeting in a few minutes again... But the short story is that it allows you to investigate stuff without blaming people for it. atlassian.com/incident-management/postmortem/blameless is a good explanation ;)
When it comes to 'meta is toxic' and 'people experience anxiety when posting on meta'... it's a good thing to keep in mind when trying to work forward...
@Tinkeringbell When I was still working and running a Quality team, one of whose roles was to conduct post-mortems for major project failures, operational incidents and the like, we worked really hard to get people to understand that it was very very rare for somebody to be 'to blame' -- it was almost always a systems failure -- poor communications, lack of clarity about the objectives of something, badly documented or implemented tools...
@Mithical Please tell me that picture is a joke product, like GTA's Pisswasser beer.
It took a lot of clear thinking and strict moderation of the post-mortem to stop people playing the blame game with each other and focus on working out how to improve the system but we mostly managed it.
12:38 PM
@ColeValleyGirl Yeah, it takes a lot of work... but:
> If we’re not looking for another team to blame, we’ll be more effective at working together, communicating clearly and without fear, and having empathy for the teams around us.
Oddly enough, I've been thinking about this a lot in the last few months. While watching meta deteriorate into a children's playground.
I have an inkling some of that may help here too ;)
@Tinkeringbell I can only dream of that
@Gimby I believe you can do it too...
@Gimby Dreaming isn't enough, unfortunately. You have to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty to make change happen. It's a lot easier to stand in the middle of the playground and scream that the big nasty boys started it.
12:41 PM
But I don't do that, stop blaming me!
The other things I've been thinking about a lot is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis"Transactional Analysis". We have a lot of people behaving in Parent and Child modes around here, but not nearly enough Adults.
@ColeValleyGirl I'll make sure to read that later ;)
Jake Goulding on January 20, 2020

Rust has been Stack Overflow’s most loved language for four years in a row, indicating that many of those who have had the opportunity to use Rust have fallen in love with it. However, the roughly 97% of survey respondents who haven’t used Rust may wonder, “What’s the deal with Rust?”

The short answer is that Rust solves pain points present in many other languages, providing a solid step forward with a limited number of downsides.

I’ll show a sample of what Rust offers to users of other programming languages and what the current ecosystem looks like. It’s not all roses in Rust-land, so I talk about the downsides, too.  …

@Gimby Generic you not specific you :)
@Tinkeringbell Interesting methodology, but I don't think it's realistic in this situation.
12:50 PM
@Cerbrus Why not?
Other then the head of steam that has built up in the blame game here recently?
"Us users" can't change SE. All we can do is point out what's not working as it should.
And what's not working as it should, is the coorporate part of SE, as far as the community is concerned
@BlueSoul maybe the spammer scraper took only partial text.
> Avoid alcohol or liquids containing large amounts of sugar
"Us users" can change the way we analyse what's going wrong -- focussing on systems, unclear communications/lines of communications, unclear objectives... And take all the personalities out of it (including the big bad SE entity).
I think that blameless postmortem is only possible if all parties have (somewhat) equal say in the matter.
@ColeValleyGirl And then you're already quite on your way..
12:52 PM
You can't take the core problem out of the problem
Because then suddenly you don't have a problem
When the solution involves the responsible parties taking the blame, and admitting wrongdoing, then a blameless approach is... not optimal.
But that's just my opinion
@Cerbrus blameless root cause is about fostering a place where responsible parties feel free to be accountable...
@terdon Water has a lethal dose.
@Tinkeringbell But it's pretty clear the responsible parties aren't interested
The whole point here is that a.) Meta has already decided SEcorp is to blame, and that they should take that accountability while b.) SEcorp has already decided that meta is to blame, and should be held accountable.
The whole idea behind blameless root causes is to break that standoff.
I don't see how that'd work
12:59 PM
To be honest... neither do I, yet ;) But I'd love it if we could work towards it a bit.

I'm mostly struggling with how to reach the people that need hearing it, e.g. the people that posted comments underneath some recents posts saying a certain employee had no morality if they posted what they posted instead of resigned... :/
That's exactly the kind of stuff that doesn't foster a place where people feel free to take accountability.
Gotta run again.
@Tinkeringbell Imo, those users can just (made to) sod off. That employee also has a job and probably a family to take care off

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