last day (24 days later) » 

user102937
4:23 PM
@Catija: Is this the new normal now? Make unilateral changes, ask for feedback later? (or perhaps, not even bother?)
7
 
The fact that the post exists for the moderators' review kinda belies that, @RobertHarvey
 
user102937
Were the post notice changes run past the moderators first?
 
@RobertHarvey No, that's the old normal. They are actually sharing stuff now, which is certainly a step in the right direction.
2
 
user102937
@Catija I'll rephrase my question. Is the new policy to put proposed changes to the platform into the Mod Teams first for review? Or was that only done as a courtesy to the mods so that they don't get blindsided by their communities?
2
 
user102937
@terdon Someone leaked a Mod Teams post onto meta, using a disposable account.
 
4:33 PM
I know.
 
user102937
Then you also know what I'm talking about.
 
It did say the change would happen the 13th of November, so the mods have more than a week to give feedback, even if the post didn't ask for any.
 
@RobertHarvey We do. And also, once again, a leak is only presenting one side of a story and clearly had an agenda.
4
 
..... Think it is time to go and buy some popcorn. Seems the next episode is about to get aired.
2
 
@RobertHarvey FWIW, it only got 11 (or so) views before it got zapped.
 
user102937
4:37 PM
Most of them from this room, apparently.
 
It's a rough gauge.
 
user102937
I'm not here to stir up any more trouble. In a way, I'm glad that SE has decided to focus on the site mechanics for awhile, and the way they are doing seems to be really constructive. I just wish they would consider finding a way to clean up the Superfund site, that's all.
 
@PM2Ring It was also archived 8 seconds after being posted. Might've gotten more views after it got nuked. /shrug
 
@Tinkeringbell more like rants, but yeah... people are not happy.
 
@Hitodama You might need to wait a while. I assume nobody's going to perpetuate the leak in here.
 
4:42 PM
@RobertHarvey then can we please drop it? We'll have plenty of time to discuss it, trying to do so now only stirs up trouble.
 
@Tinkeringbell up to you but might it be better if we move the previous discussion elsewhere?
Hey :)
 
20 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
@Rubiksmoose hey! I took the advice from @Tink and moved that discussion here
 
Don't make it blow up ... cheers all
2
room topic changed to Room for a future discussion ;): The future is here [chat] [discussion]
 
user102937
Oh, look. A new room. :)
 
4:56 PM
Yes, and you have power here ;)
 
user102937
Ah, nostalgia.
 
For the record, the leaker is obviously either deliberately misrepresenting things or has a vastly different take than every other mod I've seen talk in the room.
6
 
waffles
 
So, readers, take note.
 
user102937
Well, it might be worth SE's while to have an, erm, discussion with the folks in there about leaks. As in, don't.
 
4:59 PM
Yeah, I assume the so mod team should be kept as private as the TL transcript.
 
@RobertHarvey That's putting it mildly...
 
@RobertHarvey We're just as pissed about it as SE could be I would think so it's not just SE that wants a ... discussion.
 
I really don't understand why anyone would do this. It seems like petty malice for no imaginable gain.
 
I don't get it either.
 
Also, @RobertHarvey, sorry for trying to shut you down there, but I really think that discussing this in the Tavern would be very counterproductive.
 
user102937
5:02 PM
NP
 
Plus, I keep forgetting you don't have your diamond anymore. D'oh!
 
And honestly, the range of emotions on this change I've seen expressed ranged from meh, to full support. This shouldn't have been dramatic, and it needn't have been.
 
mag
what happened in general
I was cycling home when the tavern discussion started
 
@mag something was leaked from the SO Mod team
 
mag
sigh
really?
 
5:06 PM
@Rubiksmoose Upgrading the CC license from 3 to 4 shouldn't've been dramatic either... This has way more potential for controversy.
 
@PM2Ring It really doesn't.
Doesn't mean it's not going to get it, but at it's core, there is no controversy here, it's all being manufactured.
 
Do I need to remind anyone about the bad vibes that arose with Documentation?
 
@Zoethetransgirl very risky business posting that link.
 
I have no idea what that is TBH. All I'm saying is that there's nothing controversial here.
 
5:14 PM
@Rubiksmoose Fair enough. I guess I can't be more explicit without mentioning the topic of the leak.
 
@Script47 meh
 
And by "here" I mean in the actual facts. The leaker's controversial opinions/suppositions are not supported by any facts and seem to have been designed to create drama where there otherwise would be none.
 
@Zoethetransgirl I admit I kinda wish you hadn't. There really isn't any benefit I can see to starting drama over this before its time.
 
I didn't notice a link posted
 
it was in the comments
 
5:16 PM
if I hadn't posted it, someone else would. I got notified about its existence thanks to the archive.org plugin, and given the link repairing activities of a lot of network users, I highly doubt I'm the only one using it
 
Is it ok to post the URL for the benefit of Mag & other 10k+ people who didn't see the post? I still have that tab open.
 
Rather not..
 
There's an archive plugin for SE?
 
No, there's a general archive.org plugin
 
Not a problem.
 
5:17 PM
That deleted post didn't simply leak the information. It tried to frame the situation in a particular way.
 
Thank you :)
 
I mean... if the "source" it provided is the source, the post doesn't need to do much framing.
 
@Raedwald It straight-out manufactures things. The more controversial aspects have no factual basis and are purely speculative and designed to create drama.
 
12 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
5:19 PM
WTH is that
 
@M.A.R. What Tinkeringbell said :)
2 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
 
@Thefuture
Wait, no, OBJECTION. They're not pingable.
 
Never been in the room :)
 
@KevinB And yet, it did.
 
Not to mention the "source" is also completely devoid of the context in which it was written which was in response to previous feedback.
 
5:33 PM
I knew I wasn't going insane...
 
Exactly
I'm just nodding in affirmation so people think I know what they're talking about
 
@Script47 Whoa there, we haven't proven that yet. Just not in this case ;-)
 
6:05 PM
Oops. They tried it again. This time it lasted about a minute.
 
Lol
This is honestly looking pretty sad on their part. What's the plan here eh?
 
I assume they want to stir up trouble.
I guess they're upset that SE want to roll out yet another change. Sure, they're showing the mods, but I get the impression that the change will happen, and that's not up for negotiation.
 
@PM2Ring I'm not sure any mods would have wanted to convince them not to change it. Well, I guess there's at least one. Seems like a fairly minor change overall, and the reasons for reverting it seem pretty solid.
 
This looks like a bit over the top resistance to change.
 
@Rubiksmoose Ok. Yes, it's a reversion. I'm not 100% convinced that it should be reverted, but it doesn't bother me too much. And my objections are impossible to state without spilling the beans.
 
6:21 PM
> I'm not 100% convinced that it should be reverted, but it doesn't bother me too much.
I think a lot of people fall along this line (including me, really).
Regardless, it doesn't seem like the change itself that is trying to be weaponized in the leaks.
 
6:43 PM
@Rubiksmoose True, it's not the change itself they seem to be complaining about, it's the alleged motivation for the change.
 
The worst thing about the leak is, from SE's perspective, they were punished for communicating the change to moderators
Which doesn't encourage future communication
 
Yup. It's honestly infuriating. SE is finally attempting to make some attempts to communicate with us (even if not in the way we want exactly yet) and them some doofus goes off and decides they don't care about any of that.
 
But what should we punish then
 
I mean, if the announcements were going to go public soon, then we can let them know loud and clear once that happens
I have no doubt the community will let their voices be heard
 
7:01 PM
I guess this MSO question shares the topic of this room. Gets kind-of weird when you can't talk about what you're talking about
 
Yup. Hopefully we'll all be able to talk freely soon.
 
@ErikReinstateMonicA Hey I was reading that.... ugh. I kinda dislike not having mod powers everywhere somedays...
 
@Tinkeringbell Wouldn't the page still be readable if it was loaded?
 
@ErikReinstateMonicA remember that one time where that guy did that thing and we were all like oh man! but he said that thing back making the situation worse and I went up and did that other thing and we were all like [spoiler redacted] about all of it but we forgot the day after.
Oh right, you don't. Neither do I. Squints
 
@Stevoisiak Nope, it greyed out for me to the point that it wasn't readable...
 
7:06 PM
Ctrl+A (select all), Ctrl+C (copy), Open notepad, Ctrl+V (paste)
 
@M.A.R. wasn't that when Marklar went to Marklar to get some marklar for Marklar's marklar?
 
@Stevoisiak Too late, closed the window already...
 
user102937
The paper to which it linked:
 
@ColumbiasaysReinstateMonica How do you remember?
Talks to his wrist in a menacing way
 
7:08 PM
@M.A.R. klar all Marklars have a good marklar to remember marklar.
 
user102937
Which, if SE is using as a basis for making any UI decisions, is really disturbing.
 
Well, that was a mistake.
Lesson learned
 
Yes, it was. And glad to hear ;)
 
I honestly hoped it would be a valuable discussion on its own merits
 
Wait a few days then.
 
7:13 PM
it will be a crapstorm at that point. reasoned discussion of how to get good data and make sure we're accurately measuring things, perhaps (gasp) including nonbinary issues... that will get lost
 
user102937
Discussing ideology is pointless. SE has made their standing very clear. Doesn't much matter how they came to those conclusions.
 
FWIW, some folks lurk meta these days that never lurked meta. I'm skeptical if a polarizing issue such as . . . whatever that was can be discussed in its own merit unless it feels like business as usual in the meta.
 
@RobertHarvey Ehh. Ideology perhaps not, data collection seems a prudent talking point though.
 
So wait a few days. Like days in Saturn or something.
 
@DeNovosupportsGoFundMonica I'd advise you to wait another few days more then ;) There will be a time when you can discuss these things without them being drowned out, I'm sure :)
 
user102937
7:15 PM
@Tinkeringbell Sure. We can debate the merits of that paper all day long, but do you really think SE is going to say "Gee, how misguided were we?"
 
yes, lets wait until it's all done and overwith to discuss it
 
Ehh, lemme move rooms again for a sec?
 
@RobertHarvey they might. David said that before becoming mute.
 
15 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta
@RobertHarvey And... perhaps, perhaps not... There's been times where things like that have been done (I'm thinking joke threads?)
 
user102937
It would be a big lift, I think. SE has been talking about this since the Welcoming post, and thinking about it long before that.
 
7:19 PM
Yep... but in times like this it requires communicating stuff just right. We were given a chance to help on that, and someone blew it :(
 
user102937
Well, those mods that are leaking stuff. If ever there was a use case for the "any reason" clause in the mod agreement, this would be it.
 
@RobertHarvey FWIW, and I want to make this abundantly clear: members of SE have said that this was not at all a primary reason they made this change, it was very much a potential side-benefit.
 
@RobertHarvey And yet, I hope we never find out. I need some sign right now that demoddings will never end up public ever again.
 
The person they thought leaked the TL transcripts wasn't made public. This would seem to be the same.
 
Did they have a real suspect, though? I imagine it's not that hard to cover your tracks.
 
7:29 PM
I dunno if I'm allowed to say it on here, but the leaked post was really just one-sided because it only quoted the question while there are many answers providing constructive feedback, and even a follow-up question also with constructive feedback...
 
@ErikReinstateMonicA I don't remember exactly what they said, and I can't check, but they sounded like they had removed someone over it.
 
Do you suppose we will see an announcement soon over said removal?
 
@MetaAndrewT. It was very one-sided in much more than one way.
 
@ColumbiasaysReinstateMonica Doubt it. Highly doubt it.
 
I would not count on any kind of announcement
 
7:31 PM
10 mins ago, by Tinkeringbell
@RobertHarvey And yet, I hope we never find out. I need some sign right now that demoddings will never end up public ever again.
Can't stress that enough, personally...
 
Very much agree.
 
If they did find out, it wouldn't be a public removal. Unless the mod themselves made it public
If not commenting on mod removals wasn't a policy before, I'm sure it is now
 
The stupid thing is that now the gap between SE and the community is now likely even larger, if they can't trust the mods to keep stuff private
 
user102937
If the guy was smart, he bounced it off sixteen satellites and through a TOR account before he posted it.
 
user102937
[wonders if one can detect copy/paste in a browser]
 
user102937
7:34 PM
Oh, sorry. Person
 
I've been on sites where you can't paste anything in the password field, IIRC
 
@RobertHarvey Nah, don't worry. No woman would ever be this petty :P
 
user102937
Heh.
 
Post spam on MSE for cheap satellites
 
@user58 Half the sites where I've had to login, basically
 
7:35 PM
@Tinkeringbell That sounds like a challenge! Unfortunately, I'm not a woman...
 
@ErikReinstateMonicA Likely? Yes, kinda really wirklich likely.
I can be pretty
 
Honestly though... things like 'guy/guys' work better to be at least perceived as gender-neutral if they aren't followed up with 'sorry, person' or 'and gal'. (I hate being the afterthought 'and gal' personally...)
 
user102937
That's the price you pay for having a gender policy.
 
user102937
It's going to happen. I've already caught myself a couple of times using he or (s)he before posting, only just remembering that neither is appropriate anymore.
 
Still unsure it's a full-fledged policy unless it gets brought up
It's like that one law the lawyers have to consult books to find and appeal to
 
user102937
7:38 PM
All that hammering by corporate, and you still don't think it's official?
 
user102937
Hell, it was official before it was even published, as Monica can attest.
 
Wait, so, what did I miss, about leaking TL messages, or is it not worth digging up?
 
@RobertHarvey You can use either. You're just asked to not push back when someone edits things to 'they' if gender is indeed unknown.
 
Because that seems to be the hot topic today
 
@M.A.R. Not worth digging up and it was a Team's post.
 
7:39 PM
@RobertHarvey I mean, practically, no one seems to be going around enforcing something like it (anything different from what it was before) unless someone makes a fuss
@Tinkeringbell OK, sure.
I dunno what that means though. Are there public teams?
 
Afaik even then, a person can state their preferred pronoun, but if you're not addressing them, you can use the generic he if you want
The FAQ just says it's better not to
 
@M.A.R. private "public Teams", yeah..
 
All I ever know about teams is to sometimes join and read Charcoal and it's so Charcoaly, people doing their normal Charcoal stuff.
 
user102937
@M.A.R. No, just a private Teams site for Mods. It's supposed to be private, anyway.
 
@M.A.R. I don't think so. You need an invite into one. The moderators have their on Team, and that's definitely private.
 
7:41 PM
status-fuss
 
well, just like another Teams™...
 
@M.A.R. lol
 
Ehh... there's a slight difference between addressing and 'talking about' that I feel I should point out here because I'd feel like a horrible mod otherwise: If you're addressing someone, you generally don't need third-person pronouns. If you're talking about someone, and know their pronouns, use those, not generic he (or at least don't get mad if your post is edited, and you're in trouble if mods find out you knew but were avoiding the correct ones deliberately).

That's how I took the changes, anyways...
Anyhow... 'focus on behaviour, not specific users' + a form of gender neutral writing being to change single for plural should get you a long way ;)
 
But of course, singular "they" being an exception, if I tell someone my pronoun is "she" and they keep referring to me as "he", there's already enough things wrong with that discussion
 
Yep :)
 
7:48 PM
But eh, pretty sure this has been said, explored, exploited a bajillion times already
So let's speculate about how the close vote banner changes will shape curator/mod and user behavior on SO
Or . . . whatever else this looking to the future thing is in this room
 
Only the secret fuss thing here ;)
 
OMG OMG OMG will John Wick die
Or is Keanu Reeves immortal
 
@M.A.R. gazes into crystal 8-ball "Eventually"
 
He ages like an elf, that's for sure
 
wow, too future for me...
 
7:50 PM
@Tinkeringbell I choose to believe that's not true
 
@Tinkeringbell Is that like John Wick 7
 
@M.A.R. I dunno, I used an 8 ball.
 
Can we go to Friday drinks then? :D
I'm at a point where I either want alcohol, or a book, blanket and too much comfort food.
 
@Tinkeringbell Yes please!
 
7:55 PM
I might actually just go do that. Play nice everyone :)
 
have fun :)
 
8:08 PM
room topic changed to Room for a future discussion ;): The future is here [1.21gigawatts] [chat] [discussion]
 
🚀
 
8:33 PM
Incidentally, if I wasn't explicit before, I apologize for posts referencing something that wasn't supposed to be public. It may be too late for this, but on reflection, it would probably have been better to roll this change out without any reference to gender.
I may have made that less likely.
It would, though, be nice, to use the SO developer survey gender data to validate a gender inference algorithm (that could then be applied to questions like this), but I suppose that's not something most users are going to care about.
 
The rule I try to follow on meta is, am I asking a question to learn or discuss something, or am I posting with a pre-determined answer or outcome in mind?
Apologies if that sounds accusatory
 
8:50 PM
@Stevoisiak it didn't
 
Right now, I think meta has a lot of posts where the response is secondary to the question itself
 
9:07 PM
Huh. Why doesn't this room show up on the active rooms list?
 
@Stevoisiak It does for me at least.
It's all the way on the right.
(for me)
 
Strange. It's not there for me
 
@Stevoisiak Ah nvm. I was looking at active inside favorites
I don't see it either.
But I feel like I've had that happen recently with other rooms as well.
 
I'd report that as a bug, but I'm not sure I want to draw attention to this room
 
9:12 PM
I was exploring ancient alie . . . ancient memes earlier today
 
caching
 
If I sort by recently created rooms, the most recent one is from 2019-10-11
So nearly a month old
 
or something more malicious
 
I hope that's not how people would take it if I posted that to meta
 
well, it's either caching, a bug, or a flag that hides it from the active list
i'd assume caching at this point
 
9:22 PM
oh hey, I see it now.
on page 2
 
so it's a sorting thing
 
Strange
 
@Stevoisiak because I started it as a invite user room
 
A
@rene is most likely right, the room started as a "Room for [User A] and [User B]" and those appear after ordinary rooms (i.e. rooms created by "create a new room" button) by design. — Shadow The Princess Wizard Sep 3 '17 at 22:25
lol
 
ahhhhhhhhh
 
9:30 PM
 
lol
 
This is why you always assume good intent. :P
 
10:10 PM
As a non-moderator, I have the luxury of installing that "ignore user" plugin and blocking anyone who could get me in trouble.
 
what does the plugin do that ignoring a user doesn't?
I generally just ignore people i find annoying... but i always end up showing their posts
 
10:25 PM
Basically making their stuff not appear. You can't reply to people who don't show up.
It used to be that we weren't supposed to think about the people behind questions, answers, and comments. Now it seems like we are. When things become personal, tools like this become useful.
 
Ah, so it's for the QA site
 
 
1 hour later…
11:33 PM
@DavidA Which plugin do you use? I am desperately looking for a good replacement for one which was broken by the new site design
 
@samcarter Haven't tried it yet, but there are elements that link to users by ID, which means that those can be selected.
 
@DavidA Ah, so more a theoretical plugin :)
 

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