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12:27 AM
How stable is the SE API? How often does it change?
 
Very stable.
 
What about for chat?
 
(yeah I know there's no "API" per se)
 
Chat code hasn't had any major public changes in years, and there's no formal API
 
12:28 AM
ah
Was just considering writing a plugin for an IRC client for chat.
 
snort
Would you believe that's a unfinished project as old as chat itself?
 
Pretty much as soon as chat was created, someone wanted to build an IRC bridge
and then the plan was... kinda lost in the shuffle or something
 
I don't mean an IRC bridge.
I mean a plugin that would allow me to use my cli client to chat here.
(WeeChat, IRSSI, BitchX, Pidgin, etc. support plugins like that)
 
12:32 AM
They're pretty much just shared objects like any other library, but they hook into dedicated functions within the program. Very useful tools.
 
You might/should be able to grab a library for chat access in your preferred language
 
I doubt any currently exist. I'd write it myself. If the "API" is stable enough, at least.
 
"API" = reverse engineer chat talking to your browser
seems right up your alley
 
Heh so they don't even publish the info? Shame.
 
"stable" - the company kinda stopped developing chat years ago
@TheforestofReinstateMonica its not a secret. Just that its probably so far down the priorities the company has that no one's done it
 
12:34 AM
huh
It'd be so trivial for them to move to IRC or XMPP.
 
qwebchat.stackexchange.com or something
 
other than all the existing chat stuff
and there's quite a lot of 'soft' stuff that's tied into the chat system
 
(I guess that'd kind of defeat the purpose of its non-ephemerality, though...)
Soft stuff? Like moving to chat, etc?
 
People mostly
 
for me - having it hooked into the notification system is nice, though I'll lose mobile notifications when I change my phone (the app is dead and I'm not sure if i'll move my copy to a new phone when I upgrade)
 
Well at least it's functional as-is.
 
and in theory - the API for the important bits is mostly public
But with some of the stuff they're working on for teams - we'd lose teams notification and I'd actually need that more in some cases since I don't log into SO daily
 
Oh you use Teams?
 
But I digress
@TheforestofReinstateMonica for mod-stuff
 
SE set up a team for mods. Rather to my surprise, its the site I've had the 3rd most rep on
 
Hm, I wonder if Teams would be an effective way to test various security by obscurity "features" SE has for vote fraud detection and the like. Isn't Teams basically a private SE site?
Does it use the same codebase and general config as the rest of the site?
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica uh
Probably not. I don't think you can get question/answer banned on teams
 
hm, same with vote fraud detection, etc?
 
Of course, I've never seen the admin back end
 
12:41 AM
I wonder if Teams has a setting for that.
 
No idea
and a lot of vote fraud detection is tbh... people's intuition
 
Mods notice something feels off, ask a CM to take a look...
 
I find it amusing how the response I often get is "we would never tell you because that defeats the purpose!", which explains why SE is having such a hard time finding well-implemented vote rings.
Especially when an open design would encourage improvements.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica well - there's multiple systems in place
 
some of which is undocumentable
 
able?
How can something be undocumentable?
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica quite literally mods going "something looks off here"
 
then we escalate to CMs, who have access to everything
how the heck do you document that?
 
12:45 AM
Yeah I was thinking more the automated responses. E.g. it would be quite easy to mitigate serial voting by checking how long someone has a loaded page before voting, etc.
 
On the other end, I've seen mods come up with something that looks like a red string and picture chart
 
(As well as some other techniques that I've used on sites I ran with similar requirements)
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica ah
 
Plus, to avoid false positives when someone has really, really shitty posts and someone downvotes almost all their posts due to content (allowed), not personal reasons (disallowed).
 
(and heh, We don't really know about the 'formal' SE internal criteria either - not counting the existance of some 'special' tools a former employee wrote to handle some extra messy situations)
@TheforestofReinstateMonica going through all of someone's shitty posts and downvoting is serial voting too
 
12:48 AM
Oh if you downvote all at once, sure.
 
Well its serial. Its voting.
If you see it and happen to downvote, its fine
but but
 
You know what I mean lol
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica I've seen a lot of different situations
 
If you're on a slow site and half the posts are by one idiot on the front page, there's no reason not to downvote them, as long as you're not doing it because of who it is.
 
Say in the meta context - you post stuff that's unpopular and I disagree/downvote your stuff a fair bit...
@TheforestofReinstateMonica orrrr you could raise a custom flag to let a mod know
or close it
or...
 
12:49 AM
Well flags aren't supposed to be used for incorrect answers.
If someone's wrong, that's why you downvote. :D
 
no, flags sometimes can be used to let mods know there's a problem
 
Eh, tried that before. Get the canned response "not to be used for incorrect answers" etc.
 
We have an (unofficial) template for "consistently bad answers over time"
 
Even wrote an MSE post on it. But as it is, I'm content just downvoting.
@JourneymanGeek Not all mods consider that a valid course of action.
 
nope
but that's a small risk you take
 
12:51 AM
What is, just flagging?
 
If you're overly concerned over rejection, sure
but I'm not talking about a wrong answer flag
 
Right, like custom message flags.
 
"Hi! I've noticed the user seems to be posting poor quality answers in significant numbers, could you please take a look?"
 
yup
Was worth a try for sure, but didn't get anywhere.
Luckily my "serial" downvoting never caused any problems. Probably because everyone downvotes the really bad posts lol (although I'm a lot more liberal in my votes)
 
One of the pitfalls of gamifying flags is (and it was worse with the flag weight days) is people get obsessed with statistics
@TheforestofReinstateMonica
 
12:53 AM
yeah lol
@JourneymanGeek Well the real issue is that downvotes are worth so much less than upvotes. Imho they should both be +/- 10. There's no reason a -20/+6 post should give net positive rep.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica I recall there's reasoning for that but its waaaaay back
maybe even pre-meta
 
Probably. Obsolete now, anyway.
(Although I guess it does make "new users" feel more "welcome"... *barf*)
 
I wouldn't suggest bringing it up on meta
That was in Jeff's time
 
Nah people already brought it up several times.
 
I'm sure there was a pragmatic reason for it
 
12:55 AM
Maybe.
Still annoying.
Unrelated, but...
 
and don't forget you 'pay' 1 rep 'deposit' to downvote
 
<julia@flowerhack.com>: connect to mx2.privateemail.com[198.54.122.215]:25:
    Connection timed out

<flowerhack@google.com>: connect to alt2.aspmx.l.google.com[142.250.4.26]:25:
    Connection timed out
wtf
@JourneymanGeek Sure, but that's fair.
 
ah namecheap email.
 
Yeah but one is google
 
I actually preferred the +5 over +10 for questions
@TheforestofReinstateMonica is the problem on the client end somehow?
 
12:58 AM
Same. Pretty much everyone did. It's one of the examples of SE (the company) not listening to SE (the community) because of... something about making women feel more welcome? (answer: it doesn't)
@JourneymanGeek Yeah that's my guess.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica its a lot more complicated than that
I think one of the essential skills of community leadership is 'reading the room'
 
@JourneymanGeek Well that's what the leaks said. It was one of those "what can we do to make it seem to our investors that we're being welcoming?". And what the general belief here is.
 
SE kinda sidelined the people who were good at that (who we subsequently lost), figured it would be popular and...
 
someone hated it enough to basically cause a mess to try to torpedo it
 
1:00 AM
Like pretty much everything they've done. I hope now I can call them hypocrites and you'll agree this time, since you've seen just how many problems the lack of communication caused. :D
 
There's individuals who made mistakes
 
the organisation to some extent was rotten, but they threw out a lot of good things before mucking out the sty
 
All hired to tick off checkmarks for popular buzzwords.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica Individual attacks are not ok
 
1:01 AM
sorry
(deleted)
Heh, beat me to it. :P
Though I disagree that saying someone made a mistake is attacking them.
If I make a mistake in my work, I'd love to be corrected.
 
Calling them out is
 
Guess it's one of those unspoken rules that differ between MSE chat and MSE proper.
 
Its ok to talk about mistakes - and while I'm pretty sure it makes people made I do it
@TheforestofReinstateMonica its not ok there too
 
Well people do it anyway and it seems to be accepted. Mods do it, even.
(Since saying "person X did Y" is different from "person X sux!!!1")
 
Lets remember something - while I don't work for them, and they could remove me at any time, I consider the staff my users, and they get the same protection anyone does
 
1:03 AM
The former is objective. The latter is an insult/attack.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica or "This happened, and this was not good because...."
As opposed to my Boss's approach of "who do I blame?"
 
and often things 'in context' are more complicated than as first sight.
 
I'm not blaming anyone specific. I think YouKnowWho just made mistakes because she was told what she had to do, and what she was told was not good for the community.
But putting out blame does not fix problems. Rationally looking at how to fix the problems does.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica SE was clearly working on horribly broken assumptions at the time
but we don't know from where really
but that was a longer term thing
 
1:06 AM
Well we know the gist of it, ever since the new PositionWhichMustNotBeNamed and OtherPositionWhichMustNotBeNamed were hired with the purpose of getting more funding from VC firms. It was the purpose which caused the issues, not the people.
 
"We don't really need the smaller communities" "We don't need meta" "The blog is enough"
@TheforestofReinstateMonica The new CPO - in my experience has really been working hard for us
 
@JourneymanGeek Oh you mean like even back to Jeff's days.
 
and things are thawing
there's stuff I'm unhappy about
@TheforestofReinstateMonica Jeff was always very enthusiastic about the network
Joel was to start too
 
Er, I mean Joel, not Jeff.
(Wait, why can we name these names but not the other names?)
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica Joel started team chaos - which probably got a lot of communities on a solid footing
Cause we're not attacking them ;)
 
1:08 AM
I still think "X made mistakes" is not an attack.
 
more broadly though - the company's priorities changed from "lets build a thing" to "lets make money"
which was fine.
 
So I guess it'd be better to say "Chipps had trouble communicating with the community" rather than "made mistakes"? (Personally I consider those two to be equivalent)
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica learning to talk to people, and read the room is insanely difficult
 
It all starts with actually trying.
That's what the mistake (or whatever non-attack word should be used) was.
I.e. not running things by the community first, or taking feedback.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica It took me a year - despite being a known face and an experienced mod, to get folks here to trust me
 
1:10 AM
*holds tongue*
:p
 
and I have at least one community behind me.
 
But you at least listen to feedback.
 
and pretty much was running communities for close to a decade at that point
 
That's the difference.
 
Its difficult
but its also something that can be delegated, and SE had the folks who could do it at the time (and are trying to build that back up again)
 
1:12 AM
SE $staff have the problem of not even trying to listen to feedback. cf. CoC, pronoun debacle, welcoming wagon, Monica incident, Shog incident, banning regulars, etc etc etc.
I mean, obviously they can't make everyone happy. But they can at least not make no one happy.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica each of those has a different cause
 
But the same root cause: VC funding.
 
and in some cases we don't know the whole story
@TheforestofReinstateMonica we got as far as we did due to VC funding
 
Not really. I have plenty of experience managing servers, and I can say with confidence that it would be quite easy to pay site devs and host the servers without any extra VC funding.
 
I'd argue the main problem was a lot of folks 'forgot' that Q&A was the main point of SE existing
 
1:14 AM
Naturally the servers take some money to run, and devs need to be hired to keep the site functional, but the funding was entirely about enriching certain people (venture capitalists). The community quickly took the backseat. Hell, this site could run on donations if it had to.
But it fell to the same vice that hit Wikipedia: Running their own, expensive pet projects.
In Wikipedia's case at least, they just guilt people into paying for those projects rather than using VC funding, but the effect is generally the same. But Wikipedia doesn't harm its community in doing so.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica if careers had met its goals, we wouldn't have had the first layoffs
 
The issue is that it was trying to be run as a company, not a website.
 
and it wasn't really a 'pet' project
@TheforestofReinstateMonica SE isn't a 'website' though
its a lot of websites
 
Well, you know what I mean.
They may have different domains but they're the same "site".
 
and I heard of a lot of complicated/messy politics
 
1:17 AM
Do you really think they'd be unable to run without careers, teams, etc? Unless they're running on the most expensive server platform, they easily run on un-intrusive ads only.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica Teams has generally been a net positive for us so far
 
Maybe (I don't know much about it). I just think it's unnecessary. The problem is the craving for good PR that SE needs to ensnare unwitting investors requires not listening to the community. Every Company(tm) now needs to have all these Silicon Valley "inclusivity" and "positivity" boxes ticked.
And if there are no issues, they must be invented.
2
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica I think from knowing the folks involved at least a little...
they actually think a lot of this is the right thing
 
You know some of the people involved. Not the people who secure the funding.
After all, more people were hurt by the whole pronoun debacle than helped.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica I've interacted with, and talked to a lot of the people you tried to name
and I actually saw about as much as anyone
 
1:20 AM
I only named three (CTO, CEO, and Chipps). Do you really know the former two?
 
and there's aspects of this I still missed
@TheforestofReinstateMonica I've worked with most of the CM team at the time. I've talked to the folks who helped get us back to the state where we are now. I've talked to people who worked with Joel
 
@JourneymanGeek Well the issues are things like saying staff don't have to visit MSE because "panic attacks". And firing people like Monica.
2
 
I also can read the room and know people
 
@JourneymanGeek Right, I'm talking about the people behind the curtains.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica and we can deal with that by making things worse - by attacking them
 
1:21 AM
The VC firms and those hired to placate them.
 
or winning them over
 
@JourneymanGeek They don't even know who we are.
 
I didn't attack folks. I sabotaged things by cross posting on the blog ;)
(and I'm chuffed that that's now official policy)
 
The people "in charge" probably don't even know what meta means in context.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica didn't
But you don't win by getting rid of people
 
1:22 AM
Or don't. I'm talking about people above Chipps. Not CMs. Not even employees.
 
you win by winning people over and getting allies.
 
@JourneymanGeek These are people who invest in thousands of firms. To us, we're just a name on a portfolio with some financial statistics next to it. Not talking about employees.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica The CPO kinda has talked to some of us
@TheforestofReinstateMonica heh. I think SE's biggest investor right now is my government
 
Sure the CPO might know, but it's the investors who forced us to have who we have.
 
and... while they're interested in money, I suspect that they're more interested in SO and SE as a "look we invested in this cool thing" than most other investors.
 
1:24 AM
You have more faith in the capitalist system than I do.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica I don't think the investors would care about specific employees
 
@JourneymanGeek They don't. They care about buzzwords. Specific employees are hired to work on said buzzwords: inclusivity, diversity, welcoming, progressive, etc.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica I have very little faith in my government :D
@TheforestofReinstateMonica can't really comment on that. Seen not that much on my end.
 
Well you're suggesting trying to make friends with your government. :P
Turn them into our allies, or something. It simply won't work.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica Oh, talking about the community and employees
if I wanted to do actual politics, I'd want to take my constituency for the opposition ;)
 
1:28 AM
Here's what we need to do. Let go of the staff involved in the issues ("let go", not "fire", as the latter is harmful to future careers). Find new staff who are experienced in working with an existing community. Ensure the community knows that Q&A is the most important part of the system.
Basically, tear it down and build it back up. Let the community run itself.
@JourneymanGeek That's what people seem to want, on MSE (and probably MSO?)
Huh, so the email I sent got through this time. So yeah, definitely on the side of my mail server.
s/got sent through/didn't time out/
 
1:43 AM
@TheforestofReinstateMonica the tearing down is mostly done, but I wouldn't want to 'ask' anyone to be let go. People can do better.
I can/will assist folks who are trying if i can
Most of the new CMs have experience working in communities
there's supposed to be a few more this round (who I literally know nothing of) and another round next quarter. We're pushing for hires from this community, though I have no idea who else would be actually interested
 
2:11 AM
9 messages moved to Trashcan
 
 
3 hours later…
4:54 AM
const style = document.head.appendChild(Object.assign(document.createElement("style"), {
    textContent: `body *{
  translate: 0 0;
}`
  }));

addEventListener("mousemove", ({x, y}) => style.textContent = `body *{
  translate: ${50 * x / innerWidth}px ${50 * y / innerHeight}px;
}`);
Are there any plans for April Fools’s day on Stack Exchange? ;)
 
 
3 hours later…
7:37 AM
@rene or just mention some magic word to summon us :D, anyway @user400654 on sobotics.org/chat-libraries you will find different chat bots written in different languages as java, c#, swift etc from which you can take ideas. I'm a java dev so I can only help with code in java.
 
8:05 AM
@PetterFriberg I knew that worked ... ;)
45 messages moved to Chimney
@SebastianSimon LOL
 
@rene Oh no, I just realized, I pasted the wrong code… I used translate: ${50 * (x / innerWidth - 0.5)}px ${50 * (y / innerHeight - 0.5)}px;. 😄
 
8:37 AM
@SebastianSimon that is always. I never get the 1st commit right, I always need 6 to 8.
 
 
2 hours later…
10:22 AM
@journeymangeek oof, AWS fell through?
 
@Mithical apparently so
After contacting me 3 times
 
:/
Sounds like you're having a rough time of it lately. Here's hoping things pick up soon.
 
10:37 AM
yeah,
its not been a good week
 
 
3 hours later…
2:07 PM
Teresa Dietrich on March 17, 2021
I’m excited to announce the launch of our Free plan on Stack Overflow for Teams starting today. What you need to know Our private knowledge sharing and collaboration platform, Stack Overflow for Teams, is now free for up to 50 users.  No credit card is required to start your Team, and it’s free forever. Our…
 
2:21 PM
🚽
 
 
2 hours later…
4:10 PM
How was this question answered after it was closed? (10K only).
Answer's been undeleted, never mind the 10K bit.
 
there's a four-hour period or so where the server won't reject the answer if it's posted; you can disable the "this was closed" popup client-side to submit the answer
 
64
Q: This answer was posted *after* the question was closed, how is that possible?

Tushar Gupta - curioustusharHow can somebody post an answer when the question is closed (marked as duplicate)? I see a question marked as duplicate 8 mins ago and someone posted an answer 5 min ago. This means the answer was posted 3 minutes after the question was closed.

 
Fun.
@user400654 Thanks.
Additional curiosity: You can't force a second (or third) flag with the same trick?
 
if you can get around the front-end preventing you, you can do whatever the backend will allow
 
*goes to the sandbox*
 
4:41 PM
@SonictheCuriouserHedgehog What about comments?
 
Rob
4:57 PM
Apr 9 '19 at 17:25, by Ask Question Wizard
The sorites paradox (; sometimes known as the paradox of the heap) is a paradox that arises from vague predicates. A typical formulation involves a heap of sand, from which grains are individually removed. Under the assumption that removing a single grain does not turn a heap into a non-heap, the paradox is to consider what happens when the process is repeated enough times: is a single remaining grain still a heap? If not, when did it change from a heap to a non-heap? == The original formulation and variations == === Paradox of the heap === The word "sorites" derives from the Greek word for heap...
 
5:47 PM
I'd like to propose that it becomes heap as soon as any grain rests entirely on other grains rather than the underlying surface.
 
5:58 PM
@JohnDvorak So two grains laid one on top of the other constitute a heap?
 
yes
 
NEVAH!
 
6:16 PM
Create free teams?
 
"free"
 
 
 
1 hour later…
7:27 PM
@Feeds I don't think I understand this...
 
@Catija do you have easy access to stats how often users hit the "suggested-edit queue is full" error on SO and is there a knob you can turn to allow more in that queue? I have the feeling that error is hit more often recently by < 2k editors, at least some in SOCVR mention it.
 
@rene Perhaps the problem is that 2k+ users simply aren't reviewing edits?
As far as I'm aware, the queue size on SO was turned up from 200 to 500, which is quite large, so it's either that or there's a bug and it got mistakenly turned down
 
well, yes ...
the same problem with those 3K+ users not reviewing close reviews ...
 
@rene I suspect it's a bug. The review page says there are only 444 items in the queue, but I can't suggest edits as the queue is full (I have <2k rep on SO).
 
7:45 PM
@SonictheCuriouserHedgehog that stats page is off by 60, on /review the stats are more accurate
 
@rene Yes, I was looking at the /review page
It says 442 items at the moment
 
489 for me
 
0
Q: Was the size of the suggested edits queue reduced from 500?

gparyaniSince June 2017, the size of the suggested edits queue has been 500, meaning that once there are 500 suggested edits from all users, no one can suggest edits until at least one of them completes review. I tried to suggest an edit today, but received an error message that the queue is full. Howeve...

 
@SonictheCuriouserHedgehog logged out it is also lower for me
 
@rene I feel like I've been seeing complaints about it a lot recently. I can check... I'm not sure if that info is something we collect. You might consider a general question along the lines of "how often does the s.e. queue get full and how can we address it?" - and maybe there'll be some people who dig into doing more reviews to help relieve the issue...
but I think the reason the cap exists is to prevent people from fruitless work - if no one is reviewing suggested edits... then suggesting them is somewhat a waste of time?
 
7:59 PM
Sonic already posted that one on MSO
 
I know that Shog would have been totally on board with investigating that and suggesting solutions but now I have to find someone to actually do the query - assuming that it's something we can even see.
 
Hmm, ok. let me try something in SEDE first then before you get stuck in SQL or a dev ;)
 
I see 489, too.
 
I was hoping some internal view would already exist
 
Oh, I don't think so - we're pretty reliant on SEDE for most of that data.
 
8:02 PM
@rene Well, my question addresses the current specific case rather than the general case
 
8:24 PM
\o @teresa
 
Rob
8:58 PM
@terdon A Uriah Heap.
 
@Catija after some struggling and brain farts I got this: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/…
cc @SonictheCuriouserHedgehog ^
 
9:26 PM
🚽
 
9:52 PM
@rene Huh... I don't know what happened in January but that plateau in February is perfectly aligned with the Feb 23 launch of the UI change.
 
true that ...
 

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