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user315433

8:00 PM

"You should have done X" is not constructive. :) it's an unsolicited evaluation of actions that were already taken (or not taken), of no use to anyone.

ArtOfCode

NC gets used a bunch on HR, IIRC. Let me see if I can pull out some stuff.

user315433

It's like some of those things that Alanis sings about.

user315433

FR: introduce a comment flag reason "ironic".

rene

you should have googled it .... and enjoy the plenty of cat gifs you'll find

Shog9

I'm flagging this comment because...
...it's rude
...it's noise
...it's like ten thousand spoons

ArtOfCode

8:03 PM

> You do realize that on stack exchange there are no wrong answers, just answers that are more popular or less popular. You post in your profile about leaving <another site> due to unfair mods. Just with your behavior in this one question, I am beginning to wonder if moderators had been "unfair" to you due to your views on how things work.

That's not constructive.

Aaron Hall

"Noise" - that's why we delete signoffs, thanks in advance and such from Questions.

Shog9

FWIW, we opted not to use "noise" over concerns that it was too much of an idiom

In the "it's not signal" sense

anything you don't need is noise

ArtOfCode

> Simple answer is no, detailed answer is no.

That's also not constructive.

> I am glad to know we have permission to suggest other options that may yield better results /sarcasm

You get the point.

Aaron Hall

I think we should revisit "noise" as an option then.

Just put it back on the table for consideration.

Shog9

Most common two-word phrase in a random 1,000 set of NC-flagged comments posted last year on Stack Overflow: "thank you"

Aaron Hall

8:11 PM

I'm not surprised.

Shog9

Most common two-word phrase in the last 1,000 NC-flagged comments on Stack Overflow: "honeybadger honeybadger"

Aaron Hall

that's bizarre.

Shog9

Not really; someone posted two comments containing "honeybadger" 50 times.

I should probably invest in a more robust phrase counter

but yeah anyway... "thank you" gets flagged a lot

suggesting that "constructive" is also too idiomatic to be useful here

Jon Ericson

Eh. Don't care. ;-)

Shog9

chat.meta.stackexchange.com/users/-25/honey-badger

user315433

8:18 PM

Add "you're welcome" as a flag reason, to be used by the recipient of thanks.

Aaron Hall

I would like for us to be able to catch people who are being persistently marginally rude - red handed, in the act, "you said 'x, y, and z' and if it continues you'll likely get some time off to recalibrate your nice standards."

I don't think we have a problem with overt rudeness - that gets a short leash leading to a suspension rather straightaway.

Shog9

that gets into the weeds pretty fast

Aaron Hall

Yeah, but it's the number one issue that everyone I meet in the real world has about Stack Overflow.

And you know I tell everyone in the real world about it Stack Overflow.

user315433

Back when I was more active dup-closing on Math, I'd often add "Please search before asking" after the dupe auto-comment, for the frequently asked dupes. Kind of like "should have googled"...

Shog9

Two common sources of "rude" and "NC" flags: folks leaving advice for askers on how to improve their questions, and askers flipping out because someone implied their question wasn't as good as it might've been.

Aaron Hall

8:30 PM

Yeah but I try to decline those unless they're being ~~gratuitously critical~~ ad hom (i.e. marginally rude.)

user315433

"post your attempts"?

Shog9

@AaronHall sure. But that's still someone who, out in the real world, is having an issue with rudeness on Stack Overflow.

Aaron Hall

Yeah, I try to manage those expectations too.

Shog9

Go find any Reddit whine-fest, and you'll see a crowd of folks upset that their questions were criticized. Not that they were called names or cussed at or told to find a different profession... Their work was criticized.

Which is one big reason why I don't encourage indiscriminate commenting on poor-quality questions. If you don't have a good reason to think the author is receptive, you're just opening yourself up to a headache.

Aaron Hall

Oh I've seen those. I've done my part to set expectations on Reddit a bit too, with my "how to Stack Overflow" essay...

Shog9

8:33 PM

Came across a guy recently who'd asked a question and it'd been closed, and he'd gone on a revenge-vote campaign. Not against everyone who voted to close... Just the folks who'd left comments with suggestions for improvement.

Stijn

@Shog9 how did that user end up with user id -25?

Shog9

Something pretty much no one can tolerate is the idea that they are to blame for their own condition. If that requires blaming the system and leaving, fine. But most prefer to blame individuals and keep using the system.

@Stijn they were user id #6 and got merged with user #-31

Aaron Hall

Maybe the welcome page is too friendly and welcoming? :)

writes a Stack Overflow simulator that shows people what to expect when they post off-topic questions or verboten content

user315433

9:14 PM

5

user315433

This should help temper their expectations.

Andy

@AaronHall That sounds kind of fun, actually. A lot like the subreddit simulator

Aaron Hall

You bet it's fun. That's a special project. Only the best programmers are allowed to code it. I'll allow that you might could do it though... Tom Sawyer voice

rene

@NormalHuman you know what the problem is with sales? Somehow they manage to lure customers in their trap and then delivery can again make up for their lack of knowledge...

user315433

I read Dilbert...

user315433

9:26 PM

Today's is exactly on topic of politeness... dilbert.com/strip/2017-03-08

Aaron Hall

I've got a log on a bare webpage (I think) updating in real time, didn't think that was possible...

user315433

Is Dilbert being rude or just non-constructive?

Aaron Hall

lol

I would accept either.

heh, Wally offended everyone: dilbert.com/strip/2017-03-03

Shog9

See, that's how you flag an obsolete comment.

bjb568

10:03 PM

I don't get why you guys are talking about comments again. There's not a whole lot that can make them better, except perhaps making the flag queue for them open to more people to review if that's necessary.

Aaron Hall

10:23 PM

My rules for workplace success:

1. Make your boss happy.
2. Don't ruin the software.

Jason C

10:35 PM

@AaronHall #2 is optional as long as #1 holds, lol.

user315433

@Shog9 Sorry, my experience with post flags taught me that free-form flags are those rare beasts that you raise when nothing else fits.

user315433

Hence, I'm resistant to using free-form for obsolete.

Shog9

doubt it's necessary in most cases; in this one, it was one comment among about 20

OTOH... I went ahead and deleted 9 more

Which brings us back to the problem of flagging one comment in a context where the entire thread is obsolete

Yeah, that'd be a reasonable addition @Adam; OTOH, this is currently the most-used comment flag on SO (and some other sites), and a tremendous number of these flags wouldn't really benefit from additional information. The lowest-hanging fruit here is automation, which we're already doing to some extent; if we can separate out "benign" from "harmful" comments, I suspect we can crank that up a lot. The more unpredictable option (but a perpetual favorite for the past 6 years) is to just put commenters in charge of their own flags, which also removes the need for more data from flaggers. — Shog9 ♦ 4 hours ago

user315433

@bjb568 Pfft, review queues. crowdcrafting is where it's at nowadays.

Shog9

We already have a bit of logic that tries to identify a "thread" within comments on a post - it's used to prompt folks to move it to chat. Could also detect when some of a thread is deleted and just kill the rest...

user315433

10:47 PM

I wonder where the results of "crafting" will be published.

user315433

Don't mods see the thread when handling a flag?

Shog9

not necessarily

If they're handling the flag from the flag queue, by default they only see the flagged comments

if they click through... The UI is somehow even worse

user315433

I'm getting the impression that flag options are not the main problem here. An unsortable flag queue isolated from context, on the other hand...

user315433

Unrelated: I didn't know U.S. government was selling money online.

Aaron Hall

Ah, it's not that bad, but if the policy is that we accept all flags on deletable messages, then let the flags count for users and let the mods recategorize them.

Shog9

10:57 PM

That was a bit of a thing a few years back, when folks figured out that they could buy currency on credit, earn cash back or miles or whatever on their card, and then pay it off with the legal tender they'd just purchased.

...I believe the credit card companies have put an end to that.

Aaron Hall

ooh, how about instead of "not constructive" we use "counter-productive"

user315433

Synonyms: ineffective, feckless, hamstrung, ineffectual, inefficacious, inefficient, inexpedient

user315433

I'd go with inefficacious

Aaron Hall

I want a term that works for borderline rude and recommendations against best practices, but excludes "thanks!"

user315433

@AaronHall -> English Language & Usage single-word-request

Aaron Hall

11:02 PM

I don't trust them. They don't give my own suggestions enough credit.

;)

user315433

But "inefficacious" would go better with the once-proposed renaming of comments to "critiques". This critique is so inefficacious

Shog9

@NormalHuman weeeell... Kind of an interlocked problem, really. The flags are cheap to process right now because you can just knock 'em out from a big list without having to load a question for each one & evaluate context. But, they'd be more effective with context, potentially meaning fewer comments needed to be flagged and fewer flags needed to be handled.

Aaron Hall

the problem with the negative prefixed words is you say what it's "not" and that's the problem with "not constructive" - "inefficacious" has the same problem.

counter-productive doesn't include the benign, therefore it works.

Shog9

I think I'm gonna cook a roast. There's something I can be efficacious at.

Aaron Hall

I flagged a couple of comments as Not Constructive recently, because the other categories didn't quite fit.

Shog9

11:22 PM

I'd like to talk for a minute about the cruelty we inflict on vegetables

Specifically, I'd like to talk about the baby carrot

These are not young carrots. They're mature carrots, that weren't sufficiently uniform in shape to sell

so they're put into a machine that carves them down into perfect little nubs

Whittles down the adults to make them appear to be children

But that's not the truly horrifying bit.

If you take a bag of "baby" carrots and put them in a moist, dark place... They'll grow roots.

These carrots - these poor, mutilated, carrots... Are still alive.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 I eat actual babies. Carrots that is.

the american baby style carrot is a monstrocity.

(also resulted in specially grown mutants to better fit the machines. Was done with pineapples too)

so.. poor mutilated MUTANT carrots.

user315433

11:45 PM

All this discussion of comment flags made me flag more in a non-Community-handled way, to see what mods will do.

user315433

I even flagged a couple on Math for comparison.

user315433

"AWESOME POSSUM" is too chatty, right?

user315433

No regex rule for that, sadly.

Jason C

@Shog9 See, you're projecting your human worldview onto these carrots, but the reality is, a carrot, much like a husky, isn't truly happy unless it's serving its purpose, and giving disabled adult carrots a place in the world is a kindness, not a cruelty.

user315433

Ooh, I know. Smoke Detector / Metasmoke already has 300+ user tokens. Hook @Andy's algorithm to it and drop 6 flags on chatty comments... up to 300*100/6 = 5000 deleted comments per day, no mods involved.

Jason C

11:52 PM

@Shog9 See also:

Dai Mahou Touge - Vegetable Suicide (HD)

►

user315433

New job ad: User Experience Researcher, Intern. Anywhere (Remote or In Office), $25-30/hour, 10 weeks

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