Tavern on the Meta - 2013-07-15

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3:32 AM

So how do you all feel about <<controversial sociopolitical situation>>? I'm personally against it.

Staunchly.

And stankily.

1 hour later…

4:59 AM

@jadarnel27 Is this some kind of subversive stealth advertisement for the latest Marry Me plotline?

New computer Windows Experience Index: 7.5! (Primary hard disk subscore: 7.9!)

My processor and my RAM are my bottlenecks apparently, heh.

Both ranked 7.6

5:14 AM

Ugh, so close. Now I have to shell out for entirely new RAM and a new CPU to outdo Tim? I wonder if better case fans would do the job.

5:25 AM

I was tempted to upgrade my RAM, but given how much money I've just spent on the Steam sale that doesn't seem necessary.

2 hours later…

user202362

7:38 AM

lemme C ... chats on Stack Exchange related sites use UPD async message transmissions ...

8:29 AM

Hi people! Pls answer me, how (and where) to know was I banned or reached 50 question limit? When I try to post on main SE it is told to me that I reached a limit, but when I try to post on META, it is told they are not accepting from my account.

Btw it is wrong to ban humans if they don't violate any rules

8:41 AM

Have you seen this post?
http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/69610/is-there-any-limit-for-asking-questions

(@SuzanCioc)

1 hour later…

9:55 AM

This is senseless. I don't understand, what does "many" mean? And what "low voted" means? How many? And how low? How human can follow guides if he/she does not have a measure?

10:51 AM

@SuzanCioc Low voted = questions with a negative score

1 hour later…

PearsonArtPhoto

11:59 AM

Anyone out there want to be one of the last 2 comitters to Space Exploration?

area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/43283/…

2 hours later…

1:56 PM

@PopularDemand Haha, that's excellent. I've never seen that web comic before, but it looks funny =)

I've also never looked at my Windows Experience Index score thingadongdong. I'll have to check that out later.

$hexafraction$

2:25 PM

Can an SO mod please burninate the comments on stackoverflow.com/q/17656243/1424875? Nothing of value, just a URL repeated in an attempt to possibly spam.

@SuzanCioc If you need to ask 50 questions in a month, it's likely that you are doing something fundamentally wrong.

Consider always Googling / searching prior to asking

Your questions look pretty intelligent, but still

1 hour later…

3:50 PM

@tombull89 is it ok to DELETE questions with negative votes? if "yes" then why it is said that "Beware that deleting existing questions will probably not circumvent this limit, and may actually make things worse." here meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/4359/…

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc I do it occasionally but avoid it when possible.

@Pekka웃 (1) what I am doing wrong? and (2) why not to warn about limit approaching explicitly so I may know I do something wrong BEFORE I did something wrong?

@hexafraction why? if excessive questions are considered "wrong" then why not to delete some of them? for example, ones with negative votes? in order to clean storage? I don't understand the guides

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc Sorry, I misread. I was thinking answers.

I've had some blatantly wrong answers that I've had to delete.

@hexafraction anyway, if there is a DELETE button, then it should be allowed to press this button; either for questions and answers; if deleting is a ban reason, then what this button is for? just to mine field?

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc Overuse is a ban reason. I don't know how stringent the limit is.

3:57 PM

@hexafraction nobody knows

$hexafraction$

Exactly.

As I see, Stackexchange has a policy to have rules nobody knows. Just to have people blow from time to time

For example, currently I said I have limit of 50 qeustions reached, but when counting questions I don't see this

Can abybody count my questions?

I have 50th question back dated with june 4

Also I have deleted 5 questions because I was thinking this will help

So, counting up with 5 question gives june 12

today is july 15

so SO is cheating

@Pekka웃 btw why I should google first? if I have some huestion and this question is "good" and not on SO yet, then why not to post it? won't this increase question database quality?

@SuzanCioc Deleted questions still count; otherwise people would simply delete questions to avoid the limit. And the limit does not apply only to your account, but to potentially other people who have logged in at your locations.

@SuzanCioc Not saying your questions are bad... but no; bad questions do not increase the database quality. They decrease it. A lot.

@AndrewBarber you are joking?

@AndrewBarber what do you mean "other people at my location"?

@SuzanCioc I am not joking. Both of those things would enable someone to easily avoid the limit.

@SuzanCioc I can't be more specific than that.

4:12 PM

@AndrewBarber is this limit honest or not? if this limit is honest, then honest human should have an option to obey this limit; but how one can obey this limit, if (1) it is not known until reached and (2) exact conditions are not known?

For example me

@SuzanCioc The problem is not 'honest' humans; it's dishonest ones, which would take that knowledge to game the system and avoid/play games with the limits.

I have good will to ask only good questions, not to flood SO etc

How can I do this?

But what about honest people?

@SuzanCioc @Pekka웃 Gave you some exceptional advice on that already. I can't really improve on it.

How they can do?

Go to Google you mean?

May be close SO at all?

we still will have our Google

@SuzanCioc SO isn't getting closed any time soon, but if you find you aren't getting help from your questions here, then you'll either have to consider why that might be, or look elsewhere.

4:15 PM

Ok, can anybody explain me, why there is no indicator about limits? How indicator would help cheaters to cheat SO?

@SuzanCioc I explained it. Knowing the limits would enable people to cheat to avoid them. I am not going to give you the ways you could cheat it...

@AndrewBarber absurd! imagine traffic lights which are hidden from you! in order cheaters not to cheat....

or imagine elevator which is not said how many people it can carry

you entered this elevator and suddenly lights turned off and doors closed

because you reached some limits

but elevator won't tell you what limits are

absurd!

@SuzanCioc Imagine a store that told shoplifters exactly how to avoid their security cameras... absurd.

But there is an explicti RULE: dont' take goods without pay

is is EASY to obey this rule

just don't take goods, or if take then pay

imagine that a store will charge you a million dollars for a coke

by it's hidden rule

and you can't refuse

SO will die soon, I think

it's going more MAD each day

store cameras are to track someone who disobey rules

SO limits are to punish normal good will people without any explanations and ability to fix

feel the difference

There is an explicit rule here, too; don't ask lots of questions in a short period of time.

4:26 PM

It's not explicit, it's fuzzy. It is not known what is "lots", what is "short"

We've had that system for a long time. It's been extremely helpful. I'm sorry you disagree. I don't know what else to say here. If you find that 'absurd', this simply may not be the website for you.

Don't try to disappoint me. This is not my humble opinion, this is a truth: hidden rules are absurd.

Don't think I am just one

I am one of the millions of normal people

And if this site is not for me, then it is not for us

And it will die. I am sorry too

Few years ago it was better

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc As an answerer I rarely see the darker side directly. This may be my personal opinion but I'm still able to rake in rep and answer questions so I'm not too upset

However, if you're answering so many questions you're even at risk for straying near the limit you may want to rethink your strategy. The site isn't meant for a "give me a fish" style of a question. It's better for those more like "teach me to fish" if we continue the metaphor,.

I am presumably an asker

$hexafraction$

Read second part of message, plase.

*please

4:32 PM

No no, I was believing these metaphors at the beginning, but now I see that it is mostly ochlocracy

$hexafraction$

SO is not mob rule.

You may be downvoted for too specific question and then, after you broad it, you can be downvoted for it's broadness :)

@hexafraction it is

$hexafraction$

There's a fine balance.

And, example of ochlocracy?

@hexafraction may be it was

@hexafraction why there is no way to dispute negative vote?

what if negative vote was wrong?

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc If you were running for president, could you dispute votes toward your opponent?

In democracy, no. So that would imply that democracy is an example of mob rule.

4:35 PM

of course

in democracy yes

$hexafraction$

How do you dispute beyond a comment?

You can speak about it, Hence we have comments on Stack Overflow.

I can dispute with a comment

$hexafraction$

Yes. Same on SO.

no

$hexafraction$

You can complain about a comment.

4:36 PM

@SuzanCioc You are saying you can dispute... "I don't think it's correct that you voted for candidate X instead of Y!" That's what you are saying; people vote for whatever reason they want. It's not anyone's place to question that, unless there is fraud involved.

voter don't see any comments

@SuzanCioc Which, by the way, there is no evidence of anyone fraudulently voting down for you.

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc Being a downvoter doesn't make it so you can't see the comments on a post.

If there is fraud, there's a system to find and undo it,.

And mods like me relish finding people who do that sort of thing, too :)

does downvoter notified that his vote was disputed?

he just downvoted an go

4:38 PM

I'm saying if you really need to ask 50 questions in a month, then you are relying too much on Stack Overflow, and not enough on your own ability to learn. There are going exceptions to this rule but I think it's pretty strong overall.

4

No, downvoters are not notified of a dispute.

$hexafraction$

If there was a dispute for downvotes, it would be abused with even correct downvotes.

@Pekka웃 no I don't want to ask more than 50 qstns, oyu didn't undestand me; I am a good will; but I need to see, that I spent 25%, 50%, 75% etc of my limits

Disputing downvotes? The horror...the horror...

$hexafraction$

Some random user posts:

> i need help plz teh codez dont work rite system.out.printlln(hello world!)"

USERS DOWNVOTE IT SUPER HARD

$hexafraction$

4:40 PM

I downvote. They find a dispute button. I have spam with more "plz why down vote i want help with codez"

As do the other 8 downvoters.

@Pekka웃 here it is correct

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc Because they find the post to be poor.

Downvoting and upvoting is opinion.

Otherwise, the mods would never get breaks.

@SuzanCioc yeah, but who's to tell when it's correct and when it's not?

@hexafraction if you can imagine bad solution this does not mean there is no good solution

No one disputes there are unfair downvotes occasionally.

They also hurt

$hexafraction$

4:41 PM

@SuzanCioc What's your solution?

But the good that downvotes do (by weeding out bad content) is still vastly larger than the bad they occasionally do.

That's why voting is anonymous, and there is no recourse

(Except in case of serial downvoting and upvoting)

@hexafraction some classification algorithm

$hexafraction$

And you can only get so much damage from a user crazily downvoting you. Either they get votes removed+possible slap on the wrist, or there's not enough damage for it to really cause damage worth complaining about.

@SuzanCioc Based on what?

The post?

@SuzanCioc it probably will never be implemented. Most users never come even close to hitting the limit

And now you know there's the limit, so you have an idea when you're going to hit it.

$hexafraction$

You get limit warnings for voting since voting is powerful and used often.

The limit is often reached with it. With posts, I rarely reach the limit.

4:43 PM

user, who downvotes another user, tends to be in a different class, and users who upvotes another tends to be in a same

$hexafraction$

What? O.o? What do you mean by "class"?

@SuzanCioc if by "class" you mean "level of experience on Stack Overflow" then that's probably somewhat true. It's not a bad thing though, is it?

You wouldn't want it the other way round, people voting on what they don't understand

Although I'm sure that happens often enough.

I am guilty of it

Most all of my up votes for questions are for questions of people with less experience than me, so I'm not sure if that claim would be backed up by actual data.

"Oh, this post looks like the OP knows what he's talking about, wow"

@hexafraction sorry not class but cluster

Cluster analysis

Cluster analysis or clustering is the task of grouping a set of objects in such a way that objects in the same group (called cluster) are more similar (in some sense or another) to each other than to those in other groups (clusters). It is a main task of exploratory data mining, and a common technique for statistical data analysis used in many fields, including machine learning, pattern recognition, image analysis, information retrieval, and bioinformatics. Cluster analysis itself is not one specific algorithm, but the general task to be solved. It can be achieved by various algorithms t...

$hexafraction$

4:46 PM

So you're making this a class-based society? What next? A caste system where Jon Skeet will never look upon me?

sorry not class but clusters

all clusters are presumed to be equal to each other by level

ok sorry the talk went away from initial topic

$hexafraction$

Again, clusters will cause the entire system to stratify even more.

please explain me, why not to have progress bar saying how much of limit I spent?

@hexafraction no more than people stratified

@SuzanCioc I have explained that: If you tell people when they are getting close, they will tend to game it so as to maximize their ability to continue asking 'bad' questions - and you explicitly tell them when a cheating attempt has worked, because they no longer see their progress bar at a high level.

@AndrewBarber how it can be played here?

4:50 PM

@SuzanCioc I am not going to tell you how to cheat. Stop asking, please.

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc People are somewhat stratified. If we get the clusters, we'll be even more stratified and it'll be hard for user turnover between the strata.

@AndrewBarber just close vulnerability for cheaters, don't put the problem on the heads of the normal people

@SuzanCioc Normal people don't ask that many questions in that short a period of time.

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc Without the rules, how do we tell apart normal people from cheaters?

If they are, they need to follow the advice Pekka gave you a while ago.

4:52 PM

@hexafraction they don't have rules, thay are cheating themselves

$hexafraction$

OK, how do I explain this?

@AndrewBarber by "normal" I meant people who have good will to obey rules

$hexafraction$

You can't make cheaters follow one set of rules and good people to obey another without telling them apart

@AndrewBarber if the people silly, they are also not normal (like me), but they are good will and should have an ability to see how much questions they can ask

$hexafraction$

How do you want to tell apart cheaters from normal users that want to ask a profusely high number of questions?

But cheaters will as well, and we're back at square 2,

4:54 PM

@hexafraction you have no need to distinguish cheaters from non-cheater, you should just close cheating ability by technical means

@SuzanCioc How do you define "of good will"? I define it as "willing to learn how to operate within the confines of an established community, instead of assuming they are just doing it wrong". Learn how to ask better questions, and the number of questions you can ask simply won't matter.

$hexafraction$

Closing the cheating ability requires the addition of rules. These are rules that you've complained about. Back to square 1.

Wheel of blame blames Tim Stone, by the way :)

hehe @hexafraction

@hexafraction I am complaining not rules, but that they are hidden

@SuzanCioc And we have explained why they are hidden. Over and over again.

If you are not a cheater or of 'bad will', then learn how to truly avoid the question limit - by asking good questions.

4:57 PM

@AndrewBarber no, you din't; you have said that explicit rules will help cheaters, but you refused explaining how, basing on that this would help cheaters

classic fishing in troubled waters

@SuzanCioc OK. I can see my time here is being wasted. I wish you the best.

@AndrewBarber if YOU are not a cheater, then explain me you position; you can make it privately and I will tell how the problem can be solved without KGB methods

Yes true, my time is wastin either

I am absolutely not giving you the information you are asking for, because you would use it to avoid the limit.

Which is exactly why it is private.

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc The only reason he has info is due to his being a moderator on one or more sites.

Also, I am not aware of all of the properties of it, anyway.

and what hexxie says.

5:01 PM

That's wrong. It's private because you failed to find better solution, and this privateness harms good will people like me

$hexafraction$

@AndrewBarber I'd prefer not to be called "hexxie" as it's been a troubling past of my childhood. :)

@SuzanCioc Can you find a better one? I'm all ears.

@hexafraction the problem is hidden, so what we will speak about?

And please

This about my motivation

my usage of SO is blocked

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc Your solution. What you propose would work.

And it's likely blocked since you hit limits you weren't supposed to.

and I don't know when it will be reopened (because Andrew is afraiding of cheaters)

so I should close this site and work other way

$hexafraction$

*afraid, not afraiding

5:03 PM

and probably forget about it

byt I am wasting my time here

WHY?

$hexafraction$

And you should rework your strategy since you're overrelying on the site.

to cheat?

$hexafraction$

You need to take your time and think before asking.

to post some spam? absurd! I am wasting my time because I want SO to be BETTER

that's all my motivation

$hexafraction$

You're not making it better. We need well-though-out questions that can help future users. Not "give-me-a-fish" style ones.

5:06 PM

@hexafraction I really know what should I do, trust me; I can avoid using of SO totally; there is no problem I can't solve myself, I was speaking here ONLY because I said why

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc Then you're obviously misusing SO. If you can solve the problem without SO, wait to ask until you have a problem you can't solve.

@hexafraction there are no problems I can't solve I said

$hexafraction$

Yes. You can solve the problem so you don't need to bother SO with it.

When you have a researched and thought out problem you can't solve, go right ahead and ask.

I was thinking SO should be a storage of "good" questions, so that they could be easily found later with other users

$hexafraction$

(assuming you don't block yourself by then)

@SuzanCioc SO is a storage of good question. Why else do we have such good search and filtering systems?

5:09 PM

Yes it IS a storage of good questions, but it (1) can be better and (2) it will NOT bee such a storage soon, because it is going mad

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc If the questions asked were actually thought out and well-written (qualities your plethora of questions lacks) it will be a nice storage system.

You have some good questions but you're just churning them out too quickly and too eagerly.

They thus turn out to be of poor quality.

Yes, but people are not free question-writers; if you dont respect them they will go

$hexafraction$

The people with good questions that we want, the community does respect.

I don't know how I can make this any clearer.

@hexafraction hidden rules and suspecting in cheating IS disrespect

respecting assumes opened visors

$hexafraction$

@SuzanCioc When you go to a supermarket, there are cameras and anti-theft systems in place.

5:14 PM

it is written everywhere, that cameras are present

$hexafraction$

And we can't do anything about the cheaters without closing some information. If you can think of a viable, functioning alternative, I'm all ears.

it is explicitly known thay you shold pay for goods

$hexafraction$

and in many places they do not disclose information about cameras. What county are you in?

and what are prices

Russia

$hexafraction$

I hail from Russia as well. I'm aware of the laws there.

Many security systems are undisclosed.

5:15 PM

Yes but it should be a balance between security and respection

$hexafraction$

It is. We have many things and tools in place to provide respect to the user.

Most secuity is when people are obliged to wear handcuffs

$hexafraction$

Things you may not even be aware of.

I don't know how to make myself any clearer.

Ok finally I think I can believe you that there ARE some possibilities to cheat if limits would disclosed, but I still think it could be done better

@hexafraction How about Hexy? Or, Hexx-ee? Or, Hexadelicious?

$hexafraction$

5:18 PM

hexafraction is fine.

@hexafraction what about respection :D

$hexafraction$

The word is "respect". Respection isn't a word.

ok guys, was glad to chat with you, but I need to wrok :)

$hexafraction$

See you, then. 8)

See you

$hexafraction$

5:23 PM

@AndrewBarber Anything is fine, actually. The past is the past. And I don't need to care about eyeglasses at the bottom of a pool as I have new glasses now.

@hexafraction Oh, wow; I once lost my glasses in the bottom of a pool. shiver

$hexafraction$

That was also the month or so I couldn't hold my breath for more than a short amount of time for medical reasons.

Yeah; a month is a long time to hold one's breath. Oh, wait...

$hexafraction$

I'm back to normal now, thankfully.

I have a high-ish heart rate, so I can't hold my breath to save my life. 30 seconds is pushing it. Strangely, I have great lungs for singing, though.

$hexafraction$

5:27 PM

Oh. Sorry to hear that.

@hexafraction I hope that was condolences for my inability to save my life if ever caught in a water-filled cave, and not an underhanded insult about my singing ability... ;)

2

6:00 PM

Wow. That whole conversation was nutballs.

6:18 PM

Is there any constructive response to this comment thread? It's like some sort of reverse-projection devil's advocate troll or something. meta.stackoverflow.com/a/174878/151987

6:44 PM

@BradMace I think Shog got it covered.

$hexafraction$

@AndrewBarber It was the former.

@jadarnel27 Regarding singing and freediving? Or the secrecy of the anti-cheat mechanisms?

7:08 PM

animuson ♦, Chalco, NE

50k 11 99 256

discussion support feature-request bug tags stackoverflow review

Mwuahahaha

@hexafraction Probably "yes" ;) /cc @jadarnel27

$hexafraction$

Ah.

7:42 PM

Haha, @AndrewBarber =) I was specifically referring to the "anti-cheat" conversation. The junk about singing and breathing problems seems pretty normal in comparison, @hexafraction.

hehe

I also kind of just wanted to say "nutballs". So there's that, too.

$hexafraction$

OK.

FINE.

WHATEVS.

$hexafraction$

@jadarnel27 That comment actually made me laugh unnecessarily hard for some reason. I'm actually quite thankful I can breathe right now since otherwise I'd be on the ground, laughing myself dead.

7:45 PM

=)

Hey

What's this "on hold" designation?

$hexafraction$

@Moshe New way of closing questions.

Where is there the meta post about it?

207

Q: Closing changes: [on hold], unclear, too broad, opinion-based, off-topic reasons, bye-bye to Too Localized

After a ton of discussion, work and input from the community, we're rolling out the remainder of major closing changes that you've helped us design, as discussed in these prior posts. They're live, network-wide RIGHT NOW!!! See also: http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2013/06/the-war-of-the-closes/ ...

discussion close-reasons announcements

$hexafraction$

Blog - Stack Exchange: The War of the Closes

Jay Hanlon on June 25, 2013

It pains me when I hear people say that our sites are unfriendly, or that we chase new users away. But it’s a hard problem, because our highest priority has always been the quality of content on our sites. And it still is. We can’t lower our standards. We won’t.

But we have been working hard to make our sites more welcoming, reminding users that feedback can be clear and nice, and helping new users learn the ropes before they get frustrated. And, as of today, we’ve completely overhauled closing. …

is also appropriate.

7:50 PM

Cool, got it. Thanks!

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the venerable 50 question per month limit? post earlier.

$hexafraction$

Oh, oops.

@PopularDemand Favorited for future reference!

@AndrewBarber Then you may also be interested in meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/96610/…

(That one isn't as good when someone is complaining about the limit, though. It's just because you expressed interest.)

Whee!

8:05 PM

@AnnaLear not as constructive as I might have imagined, but I'm not sure what else can be done for someone who's determined to ignore information he doesn't like. At least someone else took a look. There was so much crazy there I hardly knew where to begin

@BradMace That conversation has long since reached the point where you should just shake your head and walk away.

$hexafraction$

OK, this FGITW is really getting on my nerves now.

@hexafraction I think the fastest gun is overrated; You don't want to be the first to shoot - you want to be the first to hit! ;) Unfortunately, the analogy sort of breaks down about there...

$hexafraction$

@AndrewBarber True. It still cost me a nice 60. :D

It's not even time. Vote inertia takes over where people blindly vote for highest voted posts.

@AnnaLear Yeah, I knew I was going to be solidly in "someone is WRONG on the internet" territory if I replied again, but his wrongness was just so thorough, varied, and nuanced that my brain rejects it like the first matrix.

8:14 PM

@BradMace I know that feeling. :)

3 hours later…

10:51 PM

@animuson You know no mercy, what? Couldn't you have waited deleting stackoverflow.com/questions/13519990/… until it earned me a Great Answer badge? Grrrrr, two votes short.

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