00:00 - 15:0015:00 - 00:00
12:19 AM
12:29 AM
On the other hand "stuff like using SEDE and 10k mod tools" and other such things is very much the culture of this place. We're what we are cause frankly, people care enough spend the time to build the tools/use the tools to deal with things. I'd be worried if people didn't do this cause it means no one cares any more. :D — Journeyman Geek 18 secs ago
Phones have crazy high resolutions and pixel densities these days. While I run UHD main screens on my PC- I do my gifs on a smaller (used to be HD, now its 2k). There's online tools for resizing that might be a good compromise between "no gifs" and "full res of my phone screen" — Journeyman Geek 30 secs ago
12:48 AM
Re "StackOverflowAI API": There is OverflowAI and the press release uses "Stack Overflow’s OverflowAPI". Do you mean OverflowAPI? — This_is_NOT_a_forum 59 secs ago
1:06 AM
1:28 AM
But it is polite and will not demand anything from you. That is apparently very very important to many people, even sacrificing correct information. Even though it is just a cold machine. — This_is_NOT_a_forum 16 secs ago
2:18 AM
If you’re defacing your posts by making big, splashy edits, you’re doing it wrong. This is obvious. The better way to harm the value OpenAI can extract is to make minor, but significant, edits that change the meaning or operation of the code but are subtle and hard to detect. — Sycorax 27 secs ago
Hi Sami Onk, welcome to the Stack Exchange Network Meta site! I'm not sure which search brought you here but the problem you describe will not be answered on this specific site. To get an expert's answer for the topic of your question you'll have to find and then re-post on the proper site. Check How do I ask a good question and What is on topic on the target site to make sure your post is in good shape. Your question is definitely off-topic on Meta and is better deleted here. — Journeyman Geek 19 secs ago
2:44 AM
@Ramhound What reason? math.stackexchange.com/questions/4910819/… The specified "reason" does not apply to the majority of the math.stackexchange posts — Hao S 51 secs ago
3:10 AM
@HaoS - 8 members of that community have voted to close your question. There wasn’t a single user with the privilege to reopen that question that voted to reopen that question. — Ramhound 17 secs ago
3:35 AM
We submitted content under the condition that it's published under CC BY-SA 4.0 and is free to use by anyone forever. OpenAI does not follow CC BY-SA 4.0, so they are not legally allowed to use our content. — endolith 32 secs ago
@This_is_NOT_a_forum this I did, though its entirely plausible I got OverflowAI and OverflowAPI conflated — Journeyman Geek 38 secs ago
4:01 AM
Other missing elements: (1) reputation from votes for deleted posts doesn't count (again, 60days/3score rule), (2) reputation cannot fall below +1. Without those, some users have negative reputation, e.g, try user
460999 on Mathematics site. — paperskilltrees 46 secs ago4:15 AM
@BenVoigt I'm not certain of that. see also "you cannot revoke permission for Stack Overflow to publish, distribute, store and use such content and to allow others to have derivative rights to publish, distribute, store and use such content" which is vague. — super-starball-ultra just now
at least in word, they do. meta.stackexchange.com/a/399630/997587 meta.stackexchange.com/a/388586/997587 — super-starball-ultra 29 secs ago
4:47 AM
One way to predict future behavior is to look at the past actions of OpenAI. At this point, the foundational principles have been gutted. Once money enters the equation, any talk of "socially responsible" guidelines falls aside. This, along with the obvious points that have been better expressed already by community members here, are the reasons why this is an ill-advised path forward. — ILMostro_7 20 secs ago
5:02 AM
Does my "X people reached" count go up every time openAI "visits" a page with an answer of mine? Will the AI be upvoting my answers? — Craig Estey 36 secs ago
@kevinb Staff posted the above announcement, and if you scroll all the way down you can also see what they thought was an adequate response to the resulting outcry. — Shadur-don't-feed-the-AI 44 secs ago
@zcoop98 I cared a great deal about the the site that was. Enough not to want to countenance it being turned over to feed a techbro's LLM. — Shadur-don't-feed-the-AI 40 secs ago
I have a [somewhat] distinctive coding signature style (e.g. symbol names, indentation, block structure, etc.) that I use in code professionally and for answers I post here. If openAI "adopts" some of that style, then a chatGPT user asks the AI to write some code, will it [partially] use my style? Will someday, somebody start accusing me of not writing my own code because it looks like an AI wrote it? — Craig Estey 48 secs ago
5:20 AM
The whole current mess started on Mastodon, and later was reposted on twitter. TDD makes us sad. — Journeyman Geek 36 secs ago
5:44 AM
Are rational, non-aggressive and fact-based posts that express users' feelings, published on the company's META sites, a valid and constructive way of protesting? Or are they just the focus of unnecessary discussions? Not that I'm thinking of publishing something like this. — Augusto Vasques 6 secs ago
AI is no "grift", it's like someone saying the Internet was overrated in 1990. AI is here to stay, for better or for worse. — Mari-Lou A Слава Україні 23 secs ago
The idea of it ? Not really. Companies like openAI claiming it'll solve everything and replace a whole range of human artistic, creative and skilled labour? That's a grift. AI is here to stay when its boring and invisible. — Journeyman Geek 43 secs ago
6:23 AM
@Mari-Lou I have no doubt certain industries will be irrevocably changed by the use of AI. From Help Desks/Support systems to Data entry, Creative spaces (both writing and imagery), as well as integrating into search and digital assistants. But not at the level or scope certain companies in the space are claiming. — Robotnik 16 secs ago
If you don't understand why the question is closed, or what you can do to get it reopened, you can ask politely on Math.SE's Meta site. — F1Krazy just now
Artificial intelligence isn't something new, it's been around since 1966, the only difference is that today the chat bot is accessible to anyone on the planet who has a smartphone or an internet connection. ChatGPT and its rivals are nothing new, in fact they are the third generation of AI bots. There was already the first generation chat bot ELIZA and the second generation chat bot ALICE. — Augusto Vasques 22 secs ago
ChatGPT is only the forerunner but just like Ask Jeeves was the best search engine in the mid 1990s until Google arrived. Do young people today even know about MySpace? No, but they certainly know and use Instagram and Tik Tok. Suggesting that AI is a grift is wishful thinking, its scope will expand, it will permeate education, the Internet, and work. — Mari-Lou A Слава Україні just now
@Mari-LouAСлаваУкраїні AI is a very broad term. The current fad is about large language models and they, by definition, are limited to their training data and doomed to repeat common errors in said data. That, I also think is a fad and likely short lived. General AI is a whole different thing. — terdon 32 secs ago
On the current issue of OpenAI - I would accept an "opt-in/out" of data harvesting for AI purposes at the user level - this would mean any content produced by me and shared on SE would be unavailable to Open AI. I would prefer this to be an opt-in system, but that is too much to ask in this capitalistic hellscape of 2024 I fear (: — Robotnik 42 secs ago
@terdon I was obviously referring to generative AI, i.e ChatGpt3.5 and 4.0, Dall-E 2, Gemini and its ilk as I presume was Journeyman. The potential is huge, it won't all be bad but a lot will (says the cynic in me). — Mari-Lou A Слава Україні 6 secs ago
7:21 AM
Part of the problem is the lack of trust. Even if SEI promised us opt-in... there's no reason to trust they'd keep that promise. — S.L. Barth is on codidact.com 27 secs ago
@S.L.Barthisoncodidact.com I'll trust it once it hits the legal/TOS/Privacy policy. Before then it's just words — Robotnik 28 secs ago
"I feel violated, cheated upon, betrayed, and exploited." Violated and cheated upon not really but betrayed and exploited yes. Although I kind of expected that at the very least since the company was sold from the initial founders. — NoDataDumpNoContribution just now
"..why should any of us bother.." Well, people contributed in the past and some will probably also contribute in the future. Maybe they don't care about all that. The future will show what will happen to SO. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 18 secs ago
Not sure if the company is really shocked. Maybe they genuinely do not care that much about their community to bother writing nicer messages? Maybe they think that we need them more than they need us or that we are too demanding to be worth the effort. And also people go ballistic. Many of the people who announce never to contribute again, didn't contribute much in the past. The true test is the usage on SE in the coming months. Many contributors might not even be aware of the company's deal with OpenAI. — NoDataDumpNoContribution just now
A promise is non-binding and depends on how much faith you have in the other side. Some users still might have enough faith in the SO brand to believe them if they promise to not to something, whatever they will really do. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 27 secs ago
It's soulless, but do you care if your problem gets solved faster? That will really be the question of the future. Do people value interaction with other real humans so much more that they live with slower reactions and maybe even less precision (on average) or will people even use AI selectively where it helps them to have even more free time to really personally contact other humans. Or will humans become isolated and AI will be their only contact (especially for lonely people), as sad as this sounds. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 28 secs ago
"This is sad." You probably thought your answers belong to you, but after posting they belong to everyone. And with the dual-licensing in the TOS you even agreed that they also potentially belonged to OpenAI. If you are not okay with that you should not have taken part in SE and did more intelligence and read the TOS more carefully before. Okay, this AI breakthrough in 2022 was a bit difficult to foresee really. The only action left now is stopping contributions in the future, but the past cannot be changed. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 50 secs ago
Very, very probably not directly as in "you contributed X% of the training material, here are Y% of the profits". — NoDataDumpNoContribution 8 secs ago
Hi chengming, welcome to the Stack Exchange Network Meta site! I'm not sure which search brought you here but the problem you describe will not be answered on this specific site. To get an expert's answer for the topic of your question you'll have to find and then re-post on the proper site. Check How do I ask a good question and What is on topic on the target site to make sure your post is in good shape. Your question is definitely off-topic on Meta and is better deleted here. — rene 30 secs ago
"Is it possible that my posts have already been fed into ChatGPT..." I would be very surprised it that wasn't so. However, your posts may have been fed illegally into ChatGPT making them vulnerable to get sued (by you) while now with this partnership the usage is on more firm ground (legally). Also there are still your future posts, which can or cannot be fed to ChatGPT. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 34 secs ago
Your content has already been used for training AI, this happened long before anyone here knew about AI, even the company itself. Vandalizing or deleting your existing content does not hurt AI training not even the slightest, it just hurts people who don't want to use AI and need a reliable source of human written information. You can only stop contributing new content in the future. Doing anything else is exercise in futility. — Resistance Is Futile 33 secs ago
Well, they are a for-profit company. What do you expect? It's their decision how to best make money and it would be nice if they had sued OpenAI instead and be a hero, but we couldn't really expect this from a for-profit company. It doesn't seem to make economical sense for them. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 35 secs ago
Nobody knows. My guess: probably not with regards to AI applications of big companies but outside of them maybe partly yes. Anyway, you would have sue for missing attribution of a CC license violation. Not even sure the company would have legal standing there. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 10 secs ago
Yes, @Mari-LouAСлаваУкраїні and that (generative based on LLMs) is what I also think will be relatively short lived because of how limited it is. My bet is that it will soon(ish) be replaced by more powerful approaches. — terdon 56 secs ago
Even though the announcements are very vague, it kind of hints that indeed the company sold the data without attribution requirement recently, when they announced partnerships with Google and OpenAI. Both announcements were heavily downvoted but that may be all that can be done realistically. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 25 secs ago
You know that being suspended for posting AI and then complaining about it on Meta will not help much your case. It will only make people go to look at that post (ones who can see it) and also look your other contributions to assess your claim. And unsurprisingly those are also AI generated. — Resistance Is Futile 54 secs ago
NO!!! of course not! If it was than deleting it would have reasonable! I don’t post AI content and I’m not “complaining,” I am just a bit confused! — Hman66 44 secs ago
"why should any of us bother to contribute our time" — exactly. Which will cause the website to degrade over time. ChatGPT may train on the content that is here today but will it be able to answer the question about the new framework that people will create in 3 years? If there's no answer from users on SO anymore, I highly doubt it. I don't understand why SO made that partnership decision... — Michal Trojanowski 27 secs ago
Why not a DMCA notice? Wouldn't that be the normal way? You are the original creator. You believe that the license is moot, so you send them a DMCA notice. They may disagree and then you sue them. Maybe this question would also be more suitable for law.SE. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 43 secs ago
@PM2Ring "I don't believe that..." It may be the case that you don't believe it but it is also true. The TOS is the only binding document for all of SE. A dual licensing is either in there or it isn't. The voting on this answer may represent more wishful thinking than actual legal expertise and I wish we would post these questions on law.SE in order to get more expert opinions. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 57 secs ago
@Peter "There is some ambiguous wording in the ToS..." The ToS should hopefully not contain ambiguous wording in a legal sense and should be carefully vetted by lawyers. Do you mean that normal people cannot easily read and understand that part of the TOS? — NoDataDumpNoContribution 58 secs ago
@NoDataDumpNoContribution DMCA takedown notices are for when somebody else posted content that infringes on your own copyright. More generally, DMCA takedown is a process initiated when a copyright owner finds content online which was uploaded there without their permission. I very much doubt that uploading the content themselves would then count as "without permission". Moreover, the DMCA takedown procedure is to send a notice to a service, which the service can refuse. After such refusal you can pursue legal action. DMCA takedown notices don't carry obligations by themselves. — VLAZ 25 secs ago
I know this can be confusing, but considering this is a site-specific issue you're having it would be best to post it on the site-specific meta instead. There a moderator can respond to it if necessary. — Mast 30 secs ago
@VLAZ Technically I don't see much difference between "uploaded illegally" or "did not remove when it become illegally". The important point is that is available in both cases although the creator thinks it shouldn't and the DMCA takedown notice is a step into the direction of rectifying it. It there was a dead-sure way to remove content just because someone wants that, that would be an even greater risk and courts must be last arbiter there. Who else can? — NoDataDumpNoContribution 6 secs ago
Have you posted any other deleted answers on Information Security? It does seem odd that, AI-generated or otherwise, you would be suspended over a single answer. — F1Krazy 7 secs ago
Even their local chat would be a better place to start asking questions than here, with regulars who know what's going on. — Mast just now
"I don’t post AI content" are you sure? Otherwise, if you personally don't post AI content, then tell whoever is using your account not to post AI content. — Meta Andrew T. 8 secs ago
Even their local chat would be a better place to start asking questions than here, with regulars who know what's going on. — Mast 1 min ago
@NoDataDumpNoContribution I'm just explaining what DMCA takedowns are. Whether you can "withdraw consent" is something not really covered AFAIK. If that were the case, you still have to content with the perpetual and irrevocable license you have agreed upon by signing up. All that's to say there is no <s>magic</s> legal "erase content" button to press. If you really want to pursue a legal path, that'd most likely involve legal action. Which can be costly, even if you do get to get a court to rule in your favour. But even then, there is no guarantee it would. — VLAZ 48 secs ago
8:51 AM
Well I don’t post AI content, and I am the only person on my account, but I’m thinking maybe the mod took things the wrong way…? — Hman66 48 secs ago
@NoDataDumpNoContribution I checked Law.SE for DMCA and withdrawing consent. The only really relevant thing I found was Can I get my answers deleted from Stack Exchange? — VLAZ 17 secs ago
"For those frustrated with the current situation but open to real change, then the best course of action is to organise " - been there, done that, didn't work — Zoe 50 secs ago
Can you add (the original revision of?) the question you were banned for to this question? For those of us who don't have enough rep to view deleted posts on that site. — HolyBlackCat 50 secs ago
9:19 AM
@HolyBlackCat there isn’t much use- but thanks anyway. Thansk everyone for the comments. — Hman66 29 secs ago
@VLAZ I kind of know how DMCA works, I did it once. I mentioned it with regard to the case of this question here. wizzwizz4 does not "withdraw consent" as far as I can see. The case is instead a possible automatic ending of the license by a violation of it. And in such a general case the recommended way to deal with violations may indeed end up in court. I just don't understand why wizzwizz4 rules DMCA out in this question. And yes, I believe the problem is indeed the other license as for example Franck Dernoncourt mentions in an answer below. However, it's downvoted. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 58 secs ago
@NoDataDumpNoContribution I'm talking about the dual licensing discussed in this answer. The second (non-CC) license we give to SO allows them to do whatever they want with the data, but only "as reasonably necessary [to run the site]." The ToS give a bunch of examples, but these are not exhaustive. This is one way SO might re-license the data: claim that it's "reasonably necessary" to sell it to OpenAI to make some money which helps them run the site. Whether it really is "reasonably necessary" would be for a judge/arbiter to decide. — Peter 17 secs ago
@Hman66 Different sites have slightly different rules about first offence. You can get a warning or immediate suspension. You have also posted a number of AI generated posts on Stack Overflow which were also deleted. Generally, if you continue with bad behavior, in this case posting AI you can definitely count on getting a suspension instead of a warning. — Resistance Is Futile 6 secs ago
@Peter We had this specific question last year with Can SE just resell our data, relicense it and remove the attribution requirement?. I was of the opinion that examples don't matter much legally and that it's not a limitation in any way. Still I hope that the TOS are at least legally unambiguous. For us laymans it's more difficult. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 34 secs ago
To be fair, one of your answers on SF talks about a back panel reset switch when there's one, and there's another where OP is stuck and you haven't clarified. It does seem rather suspicious — Journeyman Geek 46 secs ago
9:52 AM
@terdon Like Google replaced Ask Jeeves and Altavista. My point being that LLM or GenAI etc. are not going away. They will be replaced, but still this creativity, problem solving programme will continue to evolve. Come back in 5 year's time and tell me Journeyman was right. — Mari-Lou A Слава Україні 13 secs ago
In the broader sense that Wikipedia is an open source project. It's a large community created resource, under a copyleft license, with (originally). In any case, the ability to fork was explicitly built into SE/SO from the start for just this purpose. — Peter 5 secs ago
"After the moment that Partnership with OpenAI was announced, I noticed most of the users, the most active and high-reputation ones had stopped to answer or comment, leaving many unanswered questions." Citation needed. I think there's more bemusement and befuddlement and there's a interesting trend of users who have old, barely used accounts doing this rather than regulars. — Journeyman Geek 38 secs ago
10:19 AM
Codidact is not a fork, it is an alternative Q&A site with its own code base. — samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz 54 secs ago
I'll also add that "many unanswered questions" is the norm on Stack Overflow because there are just that many questions. — F1Krazy 29 secs ago
@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz It's more of a partial fork. It contains some of the content from StackExchange, but only in piecemeal. With some effort it could become a complete fork. — Peter 5 secs ago
I thought you wanted effective ways of protest? Changing usernames and expressing dissatisfaction in the "About Me" section are anything but (see also: Monica). At this point, I don't think the company will care unless the chosen protest method impacts the company revenue or compromises some aspect of SE (e.g. answer quality) enought to cause significant problems. — l4mpi 11 secs ago
Note that I'm talking about forking the Q&A content, not the stackexchange codebase (which isn't open source). — Peter 33 secs ago
In this case, using the word "fork" is incredible confusing. It makes one immediately think of the code base. — samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz 40 secs ago
Please note that importing all the content is currently not the aim of Codidact. Codidact experimented with this for some communities, but this lead to a lot of death and uncurated content and also seems bad for SEO. — samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz 58 secs ago
10:49 AM
@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz Your edit is partly missing the point. It's not just to move the community to another site, but also to host and build on a snapshot of the existing content. The aim is not just to move away from the SE management, but to make their current content valueless, since it is also hosted on the alternative site. — Peter 47 secs ago
@Peter If that's your aim, I'm not sure why you mention Codidact. This might lead to wrong expectations. — samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz 58 secs ago
Remove downvotes is my suggestion, it is easy to downvote, and there is no constructive feedback attached to it whatsoever. Mathematics learners at all levels are enthusiastic about their questions, they ask them, and all they might see is downvotes, and their questions turning red. Instead of downvotes, there could be requests, guidance in how to improve a question, that in time a user be able to improve. — Attila Vajda 5 secs ago
@DanMašek it is a toxic practice, please remove it, the author is adding to the conversation with their experience. — Attila Vajda 8 secs ago
There is a canonical Q&A on Meta Stack Overflow; that answer is also applicable to other Stack Exchange sites. You can find it here. It probably won't make you happy at first, but you'll understand the rationale better. — S.L. Barth is on codidact.com 41 secs ago
I'm not happy about this site at all, and at this point I don't even want to participate in this "question and answer" site, I am not even able, to because I am blocked and utterly lost at how or why. I'm interested in mathematics learning and have a million questions to ask and to think about. Learners must absolutely must be ancouraged to ask questions, and not be detered and offput by downvotes, with no constructive feedback whatsoever attached to them. — Attila Vajda 30 secs ago
Ah, the "toxic" card, how original. No, there is nothing wrong, (insulting, demeaning, whatever) about signalling that "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful", or "This answer is not useful." — Dan Mašek 19 secs ago
How a learner "at all level of mathematics learning", genuinely interested in asking questions has to argue their case in something not even related to mathematics, in comments, is just absurd. You have a question about mathematics, it's awesome, and we support you to explore it, it is this simple. Why a learner has to see your question is "-12 downvotes, your question is closed, and you are blocked from asking questions" and "spend like hours running after people arguing about something not even related to the stupid question"? People have dumb questions. — Attila Vajda 38 secs ago
It isn't that toxic. It's a signal or just a number as you probably know if you are active on mathematics. What value people attribute to it and the system is something else. Maybe a bit too much value is put there (especially for low number of votes) because the signal can be noisy but apart from that it's useful. More guidance would also be useful but is a lot of work. So more ways to give guidance is great. Taking away downvotes is terrible. Why do we have to take away something while getting something else? Maybe the two things aren't so well connected? — NoDataDumpNoContribution 1 min ago
Pretty sure we will get nothing out of it and will need to pay OpenAI if we want to use the model trained on data we contributed to — Gennady Dogaev 45 secs ago
"People have dumb questions." But this is not a close reason anywhere on the network? I think (without knowing all the custom close reasons for all the different sub-sites) that this is not a close reason anywhere. Maybe it was something else? We want clear, focused questions but the idea behind is to make them answerable. Ideally we also want to avoid duplicates. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 26 secs ago
It's quick to downvote, anonymous, and there is no feedback. It is very toxic and it is attached to all the toxicity of mathematics education that people are being put off by, when actually it is an awesome subject. It seems to resonate with grades, and not repeating back the expected answers. Grades are very toxic. I am for one, is put off by downvotes, deletion, and blocking even though I am happy to construct my questions, and pursue my learning. — Attila Vajda just now
@Cerbrus I wasn't disputing your comment that they aren't properly capable of attribution, only that their weights absolutely do contain verbatim copies of some text, sometimes even containing a correct attribution. Their design doesn't allow them to make any guarantees about output integrity, but you seemed to be suggesting that any regurgitation was pure dumb luck which is a clear misunderstanding of their behaviour in practice. — Will 26 secs ago
I think people downvote to get a kick out of it. And a user, who is genuinely interested in imrpoving their questions and contributing is put off, and leaves the website. — Attila Vajda 6 secs ago
I've rewritten the answer to (hopefully) focus the attention on the idea of a content fork, and to highlight the two separate aims. — Peter 28 secs ago
Does this answer your question? Why isn't it required to provide comments/feedback for downvotes, and why are proposals suggesting this so negatively received? — rene 48 secs ago
The network is built on the assumption that there would be more answers than questions. You seem to imply that all questions should be welcomed at all times with no reservation. Whereas the model of the network is to be a knowledge repository where you find the answers you need and then ask questions if they don't exist. In essence, asking is supposed to be a contribution to the knowledge base - an opportunity for future visitors to not ask the question but directly find the answer. Questions are not solely for your own benefit. — VLAZ 38 secs ago
@rene no, and remove downvotes, you must allow and support and encourage learners of mathematics "at all levels" to be enthusiastic about their questions, and so they can explore their questions. — Attila Vajda 57 secs ago
Stackexchange isn't intended as a replacement for an education, it's a repository of knowledge, clearly written questions and answers - ever growing. If you've trouble with asking questions that are clear and easily understood, then perhaps a different place is better for your needs. — W.O. just now
@CraigEstey Don't worry about that. Worry about directly being replaced by a machine or a less advanced but cheaper programmer from elsewhere that may get automatic support with the help of your knowledge. On the other hand that's why we contributed here in the first time, to make it easier for other, fellow programmers. Only we thought they would be human. Slight mistake. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 45 secs ago
Stackexchange isn't intended as a replacement for an education, it's a repository of knowledge, clearly written questions and answers - ever growing. If you've trouble with asking questions that are clear and easily understood, then perhaps a different place is better for your needs. — W.O. 1 min ago
You are curious about a mathematics question, you can ask it on Math Stack Exchange. Ask it, construct it, with the answers it will evolve, it is that simple. Why they have to see downvotes, red flags, deletion, blocking, arguing their case, it is beyond me. You have a maths question, great, ask it, that's how mathematics evolves. "I don't understand your question, please clarify this, or that, look into this link or that" Maybe a question takes a year or ten years to evolve. Anyway, good luck in keeping users from asking their questions on a question and answer site. — Attila Vajda 10 secs ago
@rene "Mathematics Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for people studying math at any level and professionals in related fields." every question can have future value, especially as they can be completely reformulated. — Attila Vajda 7 secs ago
Not if that question is already asked. Which is 9 out of 10 the case for closed and downvoted questions on any SE site. — rene 16 secs ago
@wizzwizz4 I think there’s some conflation or inception here. The image I am suggesting linking - or not having at all - is the picture of a browser window that contains an error message in this question, which was uploaded here just fine. But I don’t think that image is necessary in the first place - all the value is in the text of the error message, not a picture of it. I wasn’t suggesting linking the animated gif that is the source of this issue, just making it maybe not 2400 pixels wide. Even if that didn’t exceed limits, it’s only useful that large to a minority. — testing-malady 5 secs ago
@W.O. How do you suggest learning to ask a question, when your question is deleted even before you get around to update it, and you are blocked from making new questions, and so you have to argue the entire Stack Exchange Universe and plead your case. I asked a question, and I was geuninely interested in improving questions for this website, and put effort into doing so, the questions are deleted. So many things I learn in mathematics I don't understand, and I read from experts that they don't either, not understanding things is just the nature of mathematics. — Attila Vajda 52 secs ago
I read books in mathematics and I don't understand most of what I read. People spend their entire lives figuring out some stupid question that someone else intuitively knows. How do you expect "learners at all levels" basically anyone, just turn up and ask the mathematically perfect questions that satisfy the veteran users of this forum. — Attila Vajda 25 secs ago
@wizzwizz4 To clarify, when I mention link in the answer, I meant that you could have inline image in the post that displays a 1000-pixel wide animated gif, say, but it could be set in markdown to link to a larger version offsite that doesn’t meet requirements here but doesn’t contain any additional information, it’s just bigger for people who “need” 2400-pixel wide animated gifs. — testing-malady 47 secs ago
And what is the point in satisfying the veterans of this forum anyway, what does it have to do with asking unique questions and learning mathematics. Zero. You are curious about mathematics, awesome, ask your questions, and the veterans should support you to do so, because anyone can have insight, and it is a good human endeavour to do mathematics. — Attila Vajda 12 secs ago
If you don't understand the books on math you have read you should start with simpler books, or the concepts you want to learn about are too complex for your level. Math can be really hard if you jump into some topic without knowing the basic required for that particular topic or other related topics. — Resistance Is Futile 36 secs ago
@ResistanceIsFutile I have been taking mathematics classes for 12 years in school, was put off, and for a few year enthusiastically spending basically my entire day learning mathematics, and I realised I don't know what a line is. — Attila Vajda 20 secs ago
Well, mathematics has a sandbox for : "Drafts of long, complex posts.". When your suspension runs out, you can try asking there, but make sure to do your research (and show it) when posting, and use the appropriate tools (TeX-LaTeX). There's a dedicated site for TeX which might be of use to beginners. — W.O. 35 secs ago
"I don’t post AI content" -- Hmm... let's see... meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/429984/… IIRC this was followed by suspension for posting AI content on SO. — Dan Mašek 43 secs ago
"I realised I don't know what a line is", then I'd suggest referring to a book that details the basics of mathematical system's axioms, how things are structured from the bottom-up. — W.O. 17 secs ago
@W.O. I will look into that, thanks. Do you know how to go about it when we try making our own definition of line, without a given structure? — Attila Vajda 32 secs ago
No. I read about that perhaps 43 years ago, but then life took me in different directions. Books I read: Through The Mathscope and Mathematics The Manmade Universe - I borrowed them from the school library, still haven't taken them back. — W.O. 37 secs ago
If you find an answer to your own question, you should post it as an answer, rather than editing it into the question. The answer was rightfully removed from the question because that's not where answers go - characterizing this as "mutilation" is a gross distortion of the facts. I appreciate that you can't post the answer now that the question has been closed, but it wasn't closed at the time you made the edit. — F1Krazy 42 secs ago
@W.O. OP isn't suspended from Math.SE, so they can still post on Meta (and have been, extensively), though they may be question-banned on the main site. — F1Krazy 39 secs ago
On askdifferent it would just be a duplicate anyway (maybe of this one) so I would say delete and forget about it. Some things to take away - more research before asking a question, and more research into how the site works (that answers don’t go in the question should be pretty clearly explained in every site’s help center). — testing-malady 14 secs ago
In fact, the exact situation you’re in now has been covered here before: What to do when the OP posted the answer in a question edit but the question is closed? — testing-malady 23 secs ago
Does this answer your question? What to do when the OP posted the answer in a question edit but the question is closed? — user1176409 37 secs ago
Btw. users seem to do that already (maybe not for this reason though) with questions and answers on SO for example have decreased quite a lot since 2022. See Has Stack Exchange's traffic decreased since ChatGPT? — NoDataDumpNoContribution 25 secs ago
Usernames don’t really work except for winks and nods from like-minded users. The company doesn’t care what your username says, and the LLM sure doesn’t care. If you have answers on technical sites, maybe jamming key words or phrases into method or variable names would make that message get relayed more broadly (e.g. in any code LLM “produces” based on your answer)? Subliminal, still, but potentially wider-reaching. — testing-malady 8 secs ago
Step 1 of dealing with a mutilated and viciously closed question: don't exaggerate. — VLAZ 37 secs ago
I don’t really know that enough time has passed since the announcement to draw any conclusion about what any high-rep user has done since, or why. Never mind “most.” — testing-malady 47 secs ago
Be clear that it’s not a forum or a help desk; just because you have questions about math doesn’t mean they belong on a specific math site, and because your content is moderated doesn’t mean they are “satisfying the veterans” - it means they are ensuring that the content fits the goals of the site. The goal of a site is not to answer any and every question a user might post. — testing-malady 1 min ago
1:01 PM
1:16 PM
I'm deleting my SO account and all related accounts. I've edited all my answers, knowing full-well they would be reverted and my SO account banned, just to have it marked in my answers histories that I am utterly disgusted by what you have done. Farewell, I wish SO leaders rot in hell. — Méga Lag 28 secs ago
@MégaLag Have you considered keeping your accounts and poisoning the well? Upvote spam and help get it in the model >:-> (Can't believe I'm saying that... but yeah, I'm frustrated enough with SEI that I'm willing to do it now). — S.L. Barth is on codidact.com 44 secs ago
I'd rather work with SE to ensure the thing works for the benefit of all - the "disgust quitting" seems premature to me, born of catastrophizing. — W.O. 43 secs ago
Delete it, then post the question on the correct site - where you can post the self-answer too, that's allowed. Be sure to check first it's not a duplicate. — W.O. 10 secs ago
@W.O. While that may be correct in theory, the track record of the company in the last 5 years or so doesn't indicate at all that anything will work out for the benefit of anyone except OpenAI and maybe the upper management of SO. — Islam Hassan 55 secs ago
Oh, yes of course - I was there. @IslamHassan I'm perfectly prepared to accept that the AI bubble may burst and take down SE with it, but I'm hedging my bets in the meantime. — W.O. 11 secs ago
This feels incorrect to me. I'm pretty sure all Stack Exchange sites show a post's view count. If you're genuinely only seeing the view count on one site, that sounds like a bug. Could you edit this to include screenshots illustrating the problem? — F1Krazy 20 secs ago
Yes testing-malady, thanks to you and the rest of the folks in the comments who have provided detailed answers and links — Anton Tropashko 11 secs ago
@NoDataDumpNoContribution I ruled DMCA out because that's not what it's for. If it works anyway (even for pseudonymous users), that'd be an acceptable answer. — wizzwizz4 32 secs ago
Just thinking aloud 𝚆𝚑𝚊𝚝 𝚊𝚋𝚘𝚞𝚝 𝚞𝚜𝚒𝚗𝚐 𝚞𝚗𝚒𝚌𝚘𝚍𝚎 𝚌𝚑𝚊𝚛𝚊𝚌𝚝𝚎𝚛𝚜 𝚒𝚗𝚜𝚝𝚎𝚊𝚍 𝚛𝚎𝚐𝚞𝚕𝚊𝚛 𝚌𝚑𝚊𝚛𝚊𝚌𝚝𝚎𝚛𝚜？ Several alphanumeric Unicode characters are readable by people as regular / ASCII characters. I have yet to learn how screen readers will work with posts using this kind of character, but they have been used for a long time on social networks. One of the caveats is that posts using them might be automatically flagged as suspicious, so there is a risk regarding how the posts will be handled by reviewers / mods / CMs. — Rubén 29 secs ago
Yes, my error. I thought individual posts would have viewcounts shown. In fact it's the thread as a whole that shows viewcount. I'll delete post. Apologies. — Trunk 33 secs ago
Should I delete this question as well? Would be kind of a waste considering amount of work that went explaining the nitty gritty to me. — Anton Tropashko 51 secs ago
@NoDataDumpNoContribution A contract is a meeting of the minds, and contract ambiguities are generally resolved in favour of the party who didn't draft the contract. It's not obvious that there's a dual license, and if there is a dual license, the other one is not a carte blanche "you can do anything with this". The version of the ToS from 13 years ago looks even less like a dual license. Representatives from Stack Exchange have consistently said "CC BY-SA/wiki", but afaik none of them have ever said there's a dual license. I have never intended to grant a dual license to Stack Exchange. — wizzwizz4 53 secs ago
Believing there's a dual license is a valid opinion, but it's also a minority opinion – not a fact. Anything is possible in a court of law, so we shouldn't dismiss this view out-of-hand, but representing it as a fact is inaccurate. I expect that's why this answer has been downvoted. — wizzwizz4 just now
How about joining the IndeWeb movement? People should start by getting a personal domain and learning about using web mentions. — Rubén 51 secs ago
@ResistanceIsFutile Editing posts is likely to also edit the training data once the site gets scraped the next time. In that way it's likely to prevent exposure of the real post to the data. So, resistance seems like it's not futile :) — doublefelix 49 secs ago
"to host and build on a snapshot of the existing content" AFAIK, scrapers have done that goal far before the recent debacle... — Meta Andrew T. 49 secs ago
I doubt that they will waste time training it over and over again on the same data. Still if we destroy human created data, how will that help people to stay away from AI? It will only undermine the credibility of SO as a source and AI will still be trained on anything that can be scraped. Poisoning the well, will only kill us the AI will survive. This is the most useless kind of protest there is. Will you start burning books so that AI cannot be trained on them? — Resistance Is Futile 30 secs ago
@wizzwizz4 I'm not a lawyer and I don't want to give any legal advice. Everything is possible. To me it looks like the dual license is and was obvious enough. My contributions were always with this in mind (even though I also didn't realize it until some time in but that's my fault). Do with it what you want but my opinion is that votes on this answer may be more what people desire to be true. But maybe I'm wrong and people really looked at the TOS and said: clearly no dual license. Who knows. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 55 secs ago
Those who say it's impossible for LMs to cite their sources are correct. If a model scans a few million documents, counts frequencies, and learns that the probability of "major" following "one of the" is 0.0023 (an oversimplification), what do you cite for that? The real ethical concern with OpenAI is that they build on a bunch of research that's freely available, and a bunch of data that's freely available, and then they post a press release instead of a paper detailing their own contributions. They stand on the shoulders of giants and refuse to tell the giants what they see. — Ray 31 secs ago
New models would likely only be trained on the most up-to-date version of stack posts, so those would be affected - I'm not imagining double training of the same model. At minimum, I would be happy if it becomes known that there is public resistance against the idea of letting OpenAI train freely, so that other companies factor that into their decision to partner with OpenAI as well. I don't see that as fruitless. — doublefelix 12 secs ago
@MetaAndrewT. True, but that's usually a cynical push to grab some clicks, and the result cannot compete in any way with the original. The aim of a fork would be to take the content, and a substantial part of the community and continue under different management, so that the new project is more active, and better maintained than the old. — Peter 39 secs ago
You've violated and exploited yourself. Doing free work for a company to make THEIR place a better one, only because you were gamed into doing that. The solution is never contribute to anything that is controlled by private company. — Danubian Sailor 51 secs ago
2:34 PM
@S.L.Barthisoncodidact.com just a reminder that if anyone decides to deliberately upvote spam, then mods can escalate to staff to check who the upvoter is and take action (this has happened on mod strike before). — Meta Andrew T. 7 secs ago
@S.L.Barthisoncodidact.com "Can't believe I'm saying that... but yeah, I'm frustrated enough with SEI that I'm willing to do it now" Also can't believe that. Surely you could find a better use of your time than trying to sabotage what you tried to build before. The idea is that now the cards are on the table and people not liking the game can move on and go their own ways, not trying to slip in one or two fake pennies. :) Let's meet on codidact instead. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 53 secs ago
In what way does contributing elsewhere affect anything? the important part is simply walking away from here. — Kevin B 11 secs ago
Is damn an expletive? An example where it was (probably) obfuscated. — This_is_NOT_a_forum 21 secs ago
I guess you missed everything that was happening here last year if you think that your protest will have any kind of effect on SE or any other company decision. It is not even a drop of water in the ocean. Again, the only people you are hurting are the very ones that don't want to use AI. And not even then because all the vandalization efforts are in vain. Right now this protest prevents most active moderators from working on removing AI generated content from sites and instead have to deal with your and other users' mischiefs. — Resistance Is Futile 31 secs ago
@Peter ah, right, I forgot that the goal is not about SEO, but about the value of selling content. Indeed, someone mentioned that Codidact still hasn't blocked GPTBot (serious comment, not a sarcasm) — Meta Andrew T. 30 secs ago
Fair points, Meta Andrew T and NoDataDumpNoContribution. I'd much rather be constructive than destructive anyway. But I've given up on Stack Exchange. They had the one thing that LLM's don't: knowledge provided and curated by actual experts! And instead of using that, they join the endless list of sites that try to force LLM's down people's throats. — S.L. Barth is on codidact.com 21 secs ago
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