00:00 - 20:0020:00 - 23:00
12:04 AM
I think this should be tagged support. There isn't much to discuss if you're seeking facts about what/how a specific staff thinks. — starball 25 secs ago
Possibly related comment by Phillipe (not Prashanth) in a MSE Q&A: meta.stackexchange.com/q/388551/#comment1295694_388586. — starball just now
@wizzwizz4 part of it is my question title edit. See the revision history. I thought the previous title didn't represent the question body, so I edited it in a way that I thought solved that. — starball 18 secs ago
ChatGPT is quite happy to cite sources when it needs to; unfortunately the sources it cites usually either don't exist, or don't say what it claims they say. But checking that wastes even more time. — kaya3 56 secs ago
I'm still waiting to know what "Community is the future of AI" is supposed to mean. meta.stackexchange.com/questions/388401/… — PM 2Ring 53 secs ago
12:40 AM
Best thing you can do is go to stackexchange.com/sites?view=grid and look, go to each site and read the description, there has to be something — Big Joe just now
12:56 AM
I think it means the ‘Community’ of AI companies they believe are lining up to pay a gazillion dollars to use ‘their’ content. — Jon Custer 15 secs ago
You've got downvotes because this isn't a very good question: you're asking for a site about earth sciences, when we literally have a site called that. (It's okay to miss stuff – everybody does it! We're voting on the question, not on you as a person.) Meta Stack Exchange is the right place to ask questions like this, so if you're ever confused about a trickier case, feel free to ask here. (Make sure to use the site-recommendation tag.) — wizzwizz4 21 secs ago
1:11 AM
@Trilarion in each of the last two years' "how's it going?" meta that we do over on RPGSE declining activity/participation has been one of our top observations. — nitsua60 14 secs ago
@Philippos I like it, but I don't think it gives the whole meaning. I'm thinking it'd have to be a two-sentence thing. (It's somewhat moot, now, unfortunately.) — wizzwizz4 44 secs ago
Re "Intentionally obstructing clear access to information, by increasing friction, as to make it harder to access information, is a form of censorship": Yes, Mr. Dent experienced that. — This_is_NOT_a_forum 17 secs ago
@AndrasDeak--СлаваУкраїні The case you suggest (using GPT to edit an existing answer) has been discussed in the past. My understanding is that the consensus among moderators is that this is fine, as long as the user discloses this in their answer (GPT's terms of service require attribution). — Xander Henderson 30 secs ago
1:32 AM
2:02 AM
I don't think that even correct AI-generated content should be allowed. When you post an answer, there's an implicit contract with other users that you're writing from your own expertise and experience. Posting AI-generated content strikes me as fundamentally dishonest because you're not sharing your own knowledge or experience, and you're representing that something works that you have no direct knowledge of. — EJoshuaS - Stand with Ukraine 25 secs ago
@JourneymanGeek turned down the B was just an accident. 3 month from your post, and it is again an F. Or probably an FD: failure with dishonesty. — Anton Menshov just now
2:15 AM
I’d say it is reasonable to assume that an AI generated CEO would not be worse… — Jon Custer 57 secs ago
2:25 AM
From one of your recent questions I am guessing you might be considering revising your previous grade. — StrongBad 50 secs ago
Yes, it does seem like the beginning of the end. Have we just wasted 15 years on another cycle of this? What will come after? What will the new thing be? — This_is_NOT_a_forum just now
Yes, it does seem like the beginning of the end. For what? Some short-term gains (the numbers must go up again)? It would have wise to wait until after the AI hangover. Have we just wasted 15 years on another cycle of this? What will come after? What will the new thing be? — This_is_NOT_a_forum just now
@EJoshuaS-StandwithUkraine While I can understand that viewpoint, I think it really depends on the type of question/answer involved. I've answered many questions where I didn't know the answer, but simply offered suggestions based on research that I actually couldn't confirm personally, since I hadn't experienced the issue the OP was having. Take this one for example - I had the expertise to comb through the Github issue and find some possible solutions, but I couldn't confirm any. — NotTheDr01ds just now
If I was using ChatGPT to research some possibilities, I'd at least have the expertise to know if the suggestion was reasonable or not, and avoid regurgitating GPT hallucinations. — NotTheDr01ds just now
Well I feel like a new question wouldn't be out of order but that question covers my sentiment. — Journeyman Geek ♦ 26 secs ago
3:30 AM
@Chris - Regenerate Response: They could decide tomorrow to replace moderators with AI moderation bots, like on Quora. — This_is_NOT_a_forum 30 secs ago
I think it's the hope to get a slice from the big cake (one way or another). — Trilarion 14 secs ago
"No one likes your stupid vote arrow changes either." That is not true. You may not see the upvotes (problem of the software running the platform) but they are there in the aggregate score (that is sometimes called votes misleadingly). Approximately 25% of meta users seem to like the new arrows style. — Trilarion 28 secs ago
4:20 AM
I mostly feel sad and disappointed, like finding out the cake is a lie. — Journeyman Geek ♦ 54 secs ago
I think the funniest thing in this post, is the amount of words and "importance". You know, it's just buttons. Not a nuclear reactor to deserve such a huge presentation. A few sentences would've been enough. — blakkwater 10 secs ago
I would say whenever there was a need to choose between a better bottom line and community resources, we have always come second — Journeyman Geek ♦ 5 secs ago
@This_is_NOT_a_forum They could also just shut off the servers. We can't keep them from bringing the site down if they really put their mind to it. :p — Chris - Regenerate Response 15 secs ago
@JourneymanGeek You have to fight for the cake if you want to keep it. It doesn't automatically stay. — Trilarion 53 secs ago
5:07 AM
To be fair, @Mast, it's a hard system limit that was expanded specifically on Code Review, but the new limit is still a hard system limit. It can't be bypassed on a per-post basis. — Cody Gray 27 secs ago
I'll be honest, @αλεχολυτ, I still don't understand what you're asking, even after carefully reading the edit. If anyone else understands what is being asked, please feel free to edit the question and I'll try to make the answer more relevant/helpful. — Cody Gray 32 secs ago
6:04 AM
I'm agree with this. Currently, the voting button is much more larger, deeper, and more prominently than the post itself. So I think it does push people to give some random votes regardless of the quality of the post, simply because they would see the vote button first but the then the post content. — tsh 1 min ago
6:23 AM
@BigJoe That was just an attempt at humor. He probably doesn't visit here or votes a lot. He sees SO probably more from a birds eye perspective, different from how we see it. But he is also putting his name under these blog posts, formally taking responsibility for all the statements. — Trilarion 10 secs ago
@Sasha that does not address the concerns I’m describing or the question at the end. Am I not making myself clear? — Keelan 29 secs ago
6:59 AM
The color change is actually worse than "just" being color. I had no trouble distinguishing pressed vs non-pressed on the old buttons as the contrast between the two was pretty high, with the new buttons, however, depending on the site theme, I actually have to focus my attention on them to see the distinction :( — Matthieu M. 20 secs ago
7:22 AM
@terdon The irony of you replying to an answer consisting of nothing other than "Citation needed" with a comment that contains no citation and is desperately in need of one is not lost on me... On what basis can you make the claim that he definitely didn't write the post and had nothing to do with it? — Cody Gray 38 secs ago
I have a feeling we're all about to become "end users", in the sense that this is where we end our usership of Stack Overflow and the rest of the platform. — Cody Gray 56 secs ago
That's actually not entirely true, @doppelgreener. SO Inc. staff members strongly encouraged Stack Overflow volunteer community moderators to ban the use of AI generators to post content on SO. This was not a decision that the SO moderators or community reached in isolation, without support from staff. So, yes, this is a complete reversal of the company's position, which was suddenly announced a few days ago without any warning whatsoever. — Cody Gray 24 secs ago
While true and fair, anything you write publicly is going to be fed, at some point, to AI. That's the sad reality. So not posting anything just in SE is quite pointless, IMO. — Shadow The Spring Wizard 42 secs ago
7:38 AM
I would go far beyond saying " which are generally copied from tools without any attribution". Unless you can somehow prove that the attribution is correct, there is no way for you to know if any "attribution" presented by the generator is real or just made up based on the format of authentic attributions in the dataset. — SPArcheon 8 secs ago
I asked a chat tool (Baize) about Covid statistics in England, it claimed that "In June 2021, England had the highest number of deaths per capita of any country in the world, with over 15,000 deaths.", mentioning the UK gov as the data source. Does not match the number given here — SPArcheon 21 secs ago
@CodyGray Well, yes, I was considering adding a pure speculation to the post, as well as a further speculation about the complaint at fired staff. I should perhaps also make a note that my answer obviously isn’t solely based on the blog post, but everything that’s been going on as of lately. — Andreas detests censorship 24 secs ago
Consider removing your opening statement, or move it to the question. It serves no purpose here. — Andreas detests censorship 18 secs ago
8:00 AM
yeah I was surprised when my answer post got deleted because it was my first time seeing a mod-agreement-policy Q&A (ok I've seen past ones, but never deleted answers on them since I'm under 10k rep right now). It's my first rodeo, but there's no way it's the CMs' first rodeo. In my mind, they should've known to lock out answers from being postable right after posting the Q&A. — starball 23 secs ago
8:28 AM
Two posts related to the same issue: I can't see if I've already voted on something and It’s hard to tell how I’ve voted on meta sites. Please make selected and unselected vote buttons different colors. — Martin 55 secs ago
There is definitely precedent for this, e.g. meta.stackexchange.com/q/336364/369802. I think a separate post (and prominently linking it as in that precedent) definitely makes more sense than having discusson on the policy post itself. — Tinkeringbell ♦ 1 min ago
@CodyGray Oh, I don't claim to know for a fact, it just seems vanishingly unlikely. This kind of thing is usually written by a marketing/communication department. I'm sure the CEO endorses it and agrees with it, inasmuch as there's anything concrete there to agree with, I just really doubt he would have personally sat down and written it. — terdon 31 secs ago
8:58 AM
It's repairable by either removing the references or updating them. But nobody knows if it will be repaired. — Trilarion 39 secs ago
@SPArcheon No, they're referring to the new CoC that went live yesterday after nominally soliciting feedback from the ocmmunity. Do try to keep up. — Ian Kemp 23 secs ago
The passage you are quoting shows a mockery attitude that is also pretty evident in the "You were downvoted because Tim lost his key" old meme. It is not the first time Stack showed an attitude that blames the victim for not being tough enough... not being adult enough... not being "alpha male" enough. What is really funny is not that the CoC uses a 20 years old example, imho that mentality is still here. The funny part is that this is the same CoC that on surface promotes the "Be Nice" principle. — SPArcheon 49 secs ago
9:23 AM
The question is asked and one group says point A should be strengthened, then another group says point A should be weakened, the another group says point A should be removed and replaced with its opposite. How exactly are you expecting this feedback to all be incorporated in the same overall outcome? Fact is SE makes the rules, they had reasons for making them this way, they adjusted parts they said might be adjusted, and refused to change things they said they would not change. You can disagree with the policy, but that doesn't mean feedback was "not addressed". — Nij 18 secs ago
@JourneymanGeek at least you feel like Chell finding out that the promised prize cake is a lie. Many users currently feel like Caroline... — SPArcheon 32 secs ago
It's only bad when they don't get their share of the profits! It's also interesting how they speak of "our data" and "investing back in our community" and "protecting the interest in the content". You sure can guess who will reap the profits once they start monetizing their valuable content. — Christian Rau 8 secs ago
@Nij Look at the announcement post. Some things have "status completed" next to them. A lot of specific, actionable things have nothing. Having staff edit the post to add "status declined" and/or leave a comment would be appropriate. But not addressing or acknowledging that they have seen and considered the feedback is inappropriate. I'll also say that the feedback given by mods was very similar - low-hanging fruit was changed, but serious concerned went unaddressed and were apparently ignored. — Thomas Owens 22 secs ago
Can you explain why you find that quote from Raymond's post problematic? I don't see it. The use of his instead of their? The loser attitudes? The CoC doesn't say anything about not criticizing. Constructive criticism is still welcome. — terdon 45 secs ago
So when a user who is not very active on the network comes to the main help site of the network and asks an on topic question, we react by downvoting? Just because the user didn't know all the sites of the network? This person tried enough to find MSE, come here and ask. They didn't post on a random site, they didn't ask the actual question here (as we see so often) and what do we do? We downvote. Just because we know the network so well doesn't mean that everyone does. Or should. metaUser, I am sorry your perfectly on topic question is being treated this way. — terdon 52 secs ago
Again, it was made very clear that mjaor changes would not be contemplated, and yet there was still acceptance of total wording replacements with moderator-suggested text. You're complaining that the company did exactly what they said they would do, because it was not what you wanted them to do. Getting indignant about it, amongst everything else happening, really makes it seem like a petty personal complaint rather than a serious criticism of a major offense. — Nij 31 secs ago
I'm not sure whether to be amused or disappointed that it's taken you so long to realise the truth that this community simply isn't important to management. — Ian Kemp 58 secs ago
Well - there's constructive ways to try to change things, and if I run out of those, then all hope is completely lost, and I shouldn't be wasting my time here. — Journeyman Geek ♦ 47 secs ago
@JourneymanGeek Your problem, along with much of the moderation team, is that you continue to assume you're being listened to. You're not, and the only way you can change that is by drastic action, not Yet Another Angry Meta Post. For hope to continue to live, sometimes fire must burn. — Ian Kemp 12 secs ago
The issue is that the description for the [tag: mod-agreement-policy] is as clear as a starless sky seen thru a glass of ink while being drunk. Currently trying to get it edited to be more explicit. — SPArcheon 47 secs ago
@Nij Not contemplating major changes was not part of the moderator review. The moderator review instructions said that they cannot promise to make "fundamental changes" but that they will "engage and explain" their point of view. I do not believe that this happened in the moderator review period. And I don't see why taking a few minutes to explicitly add "declined" in the public review period is asking too much. It's a third example in 4 days of how the community is ignored. — Thomas Owens just now
@terdon the extreme generalism that seems to assume that by default if an user is angry because of a comment or downvote that is because they are the losers, the comment / downvote was appropiate criticism and they are "not tough enough" or even "losers". By itself this quote could pass by as simply poorly written, but imho it takes a different flavor when you remember the "Tim lost his key" meme that actually makes fun of users trying to understand why they were criticized without apparent reason, implying that they should grown up and learn to disregard such things instead of being kid — SPArcheon 18 secs ago
"He wants to heavily invest in it betting the future of SO. " That sounds risky. Or is "betting" a typo? — PM 2Ring 49 secs ago
10:19 AM
So therefore 75% don’t like it. Besides, at least for me, a downvote is a stronger level of disagreement than an upvote is of agreement @Trilarion — Starship is go for launch just now
While it's futile indeed, I do support the Resistance. Where can we join? ;) — Shadow The Spring Wizard 35 secs ago
@terdon the downvotes could be justified by quoting the tooltip: "This question does not show any research effort". Searching "stackexchange geology" literally brings up the requested community. — Lino 47 secs ago
Hi Thomas, welcome to the Stack Exchange Network Meta site! I'm not sure which search brought you here but the problem you describe will not be answered on this specific site. To get an expert's answer for the topic of your question you'll have to find and then re-post on the proper site. Check How do I ask a good question and What is on topic on the target site to make sure your post is in good shape. Your question is definitely off-topic on Meta and is better deleted here. — rene 10 secs ago
10:40 AM
Does this answer your question? When are moderator flags automatically dismissed as "aged away" by the system? — Cody Gray 30 secs ago
11:25 AM
@nicael yes, my problem with misinformation is that what constitutes reasonable evidence is largely driven by politics rather than science. While some people are more reasonable than others, the reality is that we are all biased to see data that favors us as reasonable and correct and data that puts us in a bad light as misinformation. I don't trust either SE management or diamond moderators as accurate adjudicators of Truth in the war against Misinformation. — Robert Columbia 1 min ago
11:37 AM
@PM2Ring No "betting" is not a typo. I would say that investing in AI currently is a bet in two ways: first that AI is going to enhance productivity a lot and second that your AI is better than the AI of others. Of course the potential reward seems also quite big and may be worth the risk while not doing anything is also risky in itself. — Trilarion 6 secs ago
An example of politically-driven Truth is the Covid lab leak theory. A few years ago, it was the rankest of Misinformation, but it is now on the way to respectability. Evidence tending to support a lab origin has been there all along. Why is it only now becoming acceptable? Don't think for a minute that it isn't anything other than political changes and the musings of those who wield power. Since 2020, Truth about Covid was whatever Fauci said. If Fauci said masks were ineffective, then wearing masks was pseudoscience and fake news. When he changed his mind, Truth changed. — Robert Columbia 49 secs ago
@RobertColumbia Even more than that, identification of misinformation - whether it's done intentionally and/or maliciously or unintentionally - almost always requires subject matter expertise. Elected moderators do not have to be subject matter experts on the material of the communities they moderate, and staff almost certainly isn't. It's difficult, if not impossible, to enforce the policies against false or misleading content unless it's something that has been demonstrated externally and we accept those demonstrations as correct. — Thomas Owens 28 secs ago
"...nor he has the Community's trust." So you mean either he somehow misinterpreted the amount of trust he has from the community or he isn't completely honest in this blog post? — Trilarion 31 secs ago
11:56 AM
@SPArcheon In this post I'm talking entirely about not attributing the content to a GenAI, not about attribution that GenAI hallucinates. This is of course not the only problem with AI answers, but it is a simple one that I do not currently see a mechanism by which we moderators can enforce a relatively basic aspect of the CoC. — Bryan Krause 38 secs ago
@Thomas or, the very notion that I am too stupid and illiterate to tell apart truth from falsehood and need the Masters of the Castle to do it for me. That's paternalistic and treats me like a child who doesn't know any better. — Robert Columbia 10 secs ago
@ShadowTheSpringWizard No worries, you can join when (if) action will be announced in the public. — Resistance Is Futile 52 secs ago
I was going to comment the same, Had even few screenshots ready. The last pair of buttons look much better IMHO — EternalObserver 55 secs ago
Sorry, I misinterpreted that as a tangential problem - AI generated content often does not mention the source (-> the data the model used for training) and/or hallucinates made up sources (claiming for example that some data comes from a source that does not exist) — SPArcheon 29 secs ago
"Stylus failed to parse usercss: Could not find metadata." for your "here" link. I had to click your "open an issue" link, navigate to the file, manually copy-paste it into Stylus's editor, and then click "Overwrite Style" in the import dialog that popped up to parse out the "applies to site..." filters. Probably a good idea to point that out to Stylus users so they don't get confused at Stylus recognizing it as a style but failing to parse it. — ssokolow 44 secs ago
@ResistanceIsFutile Theoretically yes. According to Hanlon's razor I should simply assume he doesn't know enough about the community or it's a misunderstanding of some sort. But then somehow this is almost beyond my imagination. You cannot be CEO for 3 years without knowing what's going on, I think. — Trilarion 1 min ago
@Trilarion He has been around for Monica, so I doubt that he is merely misunderstanding, but I prefer giving people benefit of the doubt, even when there is very little evidence that this is just an innocent mistake or misunderstanding. — Resistance Is Futile 24 secs ago
12:35 PM
"Can you tell me how the CEO gauges the sentiment of the Community'? " | Answer: he looks at our feedback, assumes today's opposite day, and acts accordingly. — CDR 18 secs ago
"AI" is only the latest fad in business now. It will be something else next year. That ship, too, shall pass, if you pardon the pun. — Frédéric Hamidi 9 secs ago
We are fooling ourselves if we think SEI needs us. What they want is page views. We filled a knowledge base for them, which attracts visitors. Unfortunately for SEI, we insist on curating that knowledge base: we flag, downvote, vote to close... which drives new users away. So SEI has decided we're not needed. — S.L. Barth 47 secs ago
I think it's because you always have the graph on the right with the 4 recent posts with activity. The top post actually has 3 lines of title, so it takes up more space. If you look at my profile for example, you see less of a margin. — Lino 28 secs ago
1:07 PM
1:20 PM
@Lino then the solution could rely on some specific maximum height (in px) or to fill as much as possible items for the paired block to align both of them. — αλεχολυτ 20 secs ago
Be careful ! After ChatGPT generated posts get into SE, copyright lawsuits against SE could happen. — Nobody 20 secs ago
1:44 PM
@S.L.Barth That’s very short-sighted thinking. Eventually, the knowledge we filled the repository with, will be outdated. Before then, probably, there’s so much junk it can’t be searched anymore. But by then, AI is so sophisticated we don’t need to search anymore; we can just ask; («adding a conversational layer», from the CEO’s previous blog post). Well, that’s what they seem to think. They’re wrong. — Andreas detests censorship 53 secs ago
Robots invaded in SE office and captured the employees: that explains everything. I have no clue if this post written by human or not. (<- joke) Here the end of the old cute SO starts. (<- sad) — aepot 10 secs ago
The justification of "a net 28% increase in overall votes" was deemed to be correlated and a desired thing. FYI this is how our paperclip-maximizing AI overlords will run the world too. — Wyck 53 secs ago
Discord is really not a replacement for the community’s existing platforms: the Meta sites. I have mentioned this before. I fully support strikimg back at them, and will join in on a strike when it eventually hits, even if planned on Discord, but you need to involve the full community in this, at some point, before the strike begins, and that must be done on a Meta site. — Andreas detests censorship 55 secs ago
@Trilarion It’s is his responsibility. There is no excuse for his incompetence and lack of knowledge at this point. — Andreas detests censorship 55 secs ago
@terdon Then what do you think he does spend his time at? Partying? — Andreas detests censorship 32 secs ago
@Joachim After you've seen enough GPT content (and according to one mod, SO was consistently getting over 800 a day at one point), you don't even need an automated tool to identify what is likely GPT, but it's nice to have the "confirmation" from a tool as well. Oh, and I think we're already at several hundred today on SO after this policy change. The difference is astounding. — NotTheDr01ds 50 secs ago
2:13 PM
Can GPT be useful? Yes, when you use it responsibly and have sufficient subject matter expertise so you can properly evaluate its output. Are the majority of people attempting to use ChatGPT (etc) for SE answers actually doing that? Probably not, especially if they're just posting raw GPT output. — PM 2Ring 12 secs ago
(cont) A few days ago he learned that most of that code was generated with the help of GPT-4, and none of the human "authors" actually understand the code that they've submitted. So his job of debugging this mess has turned into a nightmare. See chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/56391171#56391171 — PM 2Ring 28 secs ago
GPT can be downright dangerous if you think you're using it responsibly but you don't understand what it's given you. One of the SO Python Room Owners was recently hired as a consultant for a software project in a field in which he has considerable expertise. The code base looks good on the surface, but it seems to be riddled with flaws. — PM 2Ring 43 secs ago
But at the same time, maybe they do wisely in staying out of the large number of Q/As that spawned the last few days, and leave them for the community to own them. — Andreas detests censorship 25 secs ago
«this is something that is in your interests and responsibility to do.» They’re not going to act on this, because they don’t seem to believe it. It’s hard to grasp that they can be so oblivious, but they clearly ignore us, our needs, and our support. So they need to be convinced, which, seriously, is their own responsibility. But how are we supposed to help them understand, when they don’t even read any of the stuff we write? We’re sending them lots of letters which get instantly dumped in the fireplace. At least it keeps them warm. But it’s a fire. — Andreas detests censorship 54 secs ago
I'd consider this hyperbolic if not for stuff like this... vice.com/en/article/qjvk97/… — Shog9 15 secs ago
@Trilarion another option that is less discussed is that he know very well what's going on, but got his hands tied by the "Board", the people with the money, who force him to go in a very specific way, and forbid him from contacting the "lesser people", i.e. us. — Shadow The Spring Wizard 21 secs ago
The disinformation on this site is atrocious. For example, CDC statistics were deleted when it didn't fit the narrative. You are political activists, and bad actors at that. — Carl 46 secs ago
Gee, I wish I could engage more and upvote this answer 28 times. I did manage to vote once but that never was a problem. (I don't mind the new buttons but I also think focus should be on other things and there seems to be a misalignment between SO staff / management and SO user's / mods goals and priorities). Might be due to the marketing view vs. programmer view (speaking for SO mostly, not SE in general) — Sybille Peters 1 min ago
@Andreasdetestscensorship Discord is not meant as replacement, but as additional channel of communication which also comes handy in situations like the current one. — Resistance Is Futile 15 secs ago
@Carl The way misinformation is being handled on this site is fine. You are either too entangled in a web of conspiracy theories to understand that, or just plainly trolling us. Either case is no good. — E_net4 47 secs ago
@ShadowTheSpringWizard In that case, it’s sad. It’s a possibility I have considered more than once, but he remains the CEO by choice. — Andreas detests censorship 19 secs ago
@Trilarion Umm, reality check: We are graduating the updated button styling for vote arrows is currently on the 11th place in the "hall of shame" least popular discussion-tagged threads of all time in the history of meta.se. It went down like a lead zeppelin after launch and has already passed epic historical fiascos like "SE tries to start audio" and the HNQ remake. That's no small feat, you have to actively try to be bad to be a runner-up for top 10 worst ideas ever. — Lundin just now
Keep in mind that lots of the up-votes on that thread came when it was actually posted as a discussion thread for community feedback before launching. — Lundin 33 secs ago
I would like to reiterate: has SE identified concrete cases where you know for a fact that someone was actually wrongfully suspended, or do you merely think that it's probably happening based on other evidence? How do you know how frequently it's happening (or even whether it's happening) unless you yourselves have a way to reliably identify whether content was generated by AI? Also, how does the number of false suspensions balance against the number of correct suspensions? If 99.95% of the suspensions were warranted, do we need a policy change for the 0.05%? — EJoshuaS - Stand with Ukraine 8 secs ago
It is the 3rd worst non 2019 post, this year is the worst since 2019 — Starship is go for launch 8 secs ago
I dont auntum computing will be widely useful in only a year @ShadowTheSpringWizard — Starship is go for launch 58 secs ago
@starball Frustrated experience. I've spent years discussing and proposing policy changes on various Stacks (mostly Worldbuilding). But if the mods aren't interested in updating the Help Center, there's no path to success and all that effort disappears under the weight of other Meta posts. I'd be happy to participate in such an effort (after so many years, I think updated community wikis for many of those support links would be valuable), but not one word before Stack Exchange signs a blood oath that they'll adopt it. — JBH 49 secs ago
@terdon Please take a moment to read though Eric Raymond's entire post. Vast swaths of it are pretty good (other than being entirely Stack Overflow centric due to SO being, well... pretty much the only Stack back then). It's the delivery of the message that's the problem. Sarcastic, rude, sometimes even nasty. There are worse examples than what I used, but I wanted that third paragraph because it was so terribly on-point with my overall concern of obsolescence. If we interpret the CoC's intention as inviting people to actually be nice rather than simply acting nice, ... (*Continued*) — JBH 21 secs ago
... then it's time to update the support material to reflect that. I don't blame Eric or any of the other contributors to those early rules. It reminds me of college and the days when Unix/Linux was written by college students who left error messages or code comments of that ilk. In my 20s it was funny. In my 50s it's immature and counter productive. IMO it's too easy to conclude SE is hypocritical when it's spent the last few years trying very hard to graduate into fully professional. There's a time and a place... and it's time (IMO) to either update the support material or cut it loose. — JBH 24 secs ago
@Shadow, absolutely, and the remaining work force on SE will be quantized 30% more. For science! — Frédéric Hamidi 52 secs ago
It says a lot that since this post went up, and the outcry it's had, that not a single staff member has made a comment on it; feels like the SO staff have light the match and thrown it on the pile to just watch the flames burn everything down. Pyromaniacs... — Larnu 36 secs ago
The linked-to video has an example of an account of using Stack Overflow for Teams (at NI) — This_is_NOT_a_forum 58 secs ago
@S.L.Barth that is why I am upset. But they will soon realize they can't have a community driven site without a community in the long term — Starship is go for launch 13 secs ago
You forgot to mention the community that lives in Teams as well, which is also heavily part of the previous blog post, but potentially invisible on the main sites. I don't disagree with the CEO that those folks are part of the "Stack Exchange community" in their own right, and obviously as paying customers they're quite important to the company, but grouping that community together with curators from the main site and calling us all happy feels short sighted at best. — zcoop98 42 secs ago
4:21 PM
@SPArcheon I think it's a downspiral of a feedback loop at this point. Meta users are frustrated, they get more harsh and annoyed, employees become more reluctant to engage (I mean who ENJOYS having to be the one to respond to people who are angry about decisions you didn't personally make), resulting in worse communication, resulting in the company becoming more out of touch and making worse decisions, etc. — ahiijny 1 min ago
@PM2Ring Absolutely agreed - Responsible use is good, but the Mods should still be allowed to police irresponsible use, since it's potentially damaging - Pretty much the reason for my answer :-). — NotTheDr01ds 52 secs ago
@Andreas well, classic case of "Maybe I can change their mind at some point". Just that such point never arrive. — Shadow The Spring Wizard 34 secs ago
@Starship it will be likely as useful as AI is these days: it will reach state where it's more powerful than classic computing in 50% or so, which would be enough to start a grand race. — Shadow The Spring Wizard 5 secs ago
4:38 PM
@Andreasdetestscensorship I would be quite disappointed if I heard my CEO was wasting time writing blog posts, of all things. I assume he spends his time doing actual work and not creating vacuous marketing documents, that's what marketing departments are for. The company I work for regularly publishes blog posts "by the CTO" but I don't think she's ever written even one of them. Everything in the post has her approval, of course, but she doesn't waste her time actually composing the post! — terdon 11 secs ago
I don't doubt that you're right. I'm just saying it isn't obvious from the quote, and highlighting what you consider problematic would help to get your point across. — terdon 23 secs ago
@Lino is correct. Here is how it looks when titles are being trimmed. — Shadow The Spring Wizard 22 secs ago
This post is currently the 11th most downvoted of all time here on meta only a few days after rolling out the new buttons. Please revisit the community's feedback and, at least for now, roll back this change. — But those new buttons though.. 46 secs ago
I don't think it's a bug, but valid as a minor feature request. It would make the site look better, but really can't see it ever being done. — Shadow The Spring Wizard 34 secs ago
@Shadow well, will u consider this as bug when the number of tags in the block became 4? 3? 2? 1? Only 0? In other words how many empty pixels allowed there? — αλεχολυτ 59 secs ago
Although I agree that this should be reverted, I'm afraid it won't. I mean, they didn't revert this, this and this (all in the top 15 all-time most downvoted), so there's no reason to believe it'll be different this time. We'd better stop wasting our time in Meta, because the company doesn't care about our feedback (they just pretend they do, but it's obvious that they don't) — hkotsubo 47 secs ago
@ahiijny But whenever this sort of thing happens, the employees suddenly start engaging. They're just putting off the inevitable by not sharing their ideas ahead of time. (That would involve the company's management devolving some of their power, and that's not how career C-suite people usually operate, but Stack Overflow is not like other companies.) — wizzwizz4 42 secs ago
@FrédéricHamidi - Last year's fad was DEI. This year it's AI and all that nonsense. Next year the wind will change and all the big corporates in the US will care about that for a few months before forgetting that it exists. — Richard 28 secs ago
5:26 PM
@wizzwizz4 perhaps more engagement, but in kind of a "we have to deal with this fire now" kind of way, which I imagine can't be very good for building rapport 😔 I can kinda imagine what the C-suite people are thinking, though. "Those nasty meta users always shooting down our plans and being so critical and unsupportive. So instead let's just steamroll our changes in without consulting them bc it'll be easier that way ccccc:" Legitimately I think the backlash against the voting buttons would not have been that severe if mutual trust had been higher. — ahiijny 55 secs ago
@ahiijny Well, if they'd actually addressed the issues before rolling it out, too… Fortunately, if history's anything to go by, a crisis like this is immediately followed by the CM team being allowed to do their jobs – and hopefully being given enough slack that they don't get rushed and start dropping balls. — wizzwizz4 45 secs ago
If I were staff, I would not feel safe hurling myself onto the pitchforks here. Whatever response they are planning, it's almost certainly not going to materialize as comments here. Just sayin'. — tripleee 47 secs ago
@mousetail Thank you. I'm not familiar with Discord. I understand that there might be multiple invitation links. The one in Mithical's answer (link added to the question) is discord.gg/PbEPURd . Is any difference between using one invitation link or another? — Rubén 14 secs ago
There's also a half-dead subreddit where mostly people go to rant about their bad experiences: reddit.com/r/stackexchange — starball 54 secs ago
@Lundin You're right, it gets a place in the top ten. But still my point was that it's not true that nobody likes it, which is the case. You know as well as me that the score is approval rate times popularity. Large number of votes mean that many people are interested in that topic. Still for me the relevant quantity is U/(U+D) and U+D, not U-D. The percentage was just from my memory. Whatever people say, there are a certain number of people that actually seem to like the new vote button style. Why is it so difficult to admit that? — Trilarion 5 secs ago
@Rubén There can be many invite links to a server, any member can create more invite links — mousetail 34 secs ago
@zcoop98 You're right. I forgot them because I usually don't have much exposure to them. Added to answer. Thanks. — Trilarion 37 secs ago
@Starshipisgoforlaunch that's not true. They did take action on some of the feedback here. search for the status-completed tags in the answer post bodies and read the comment sections. — starball 22 secs ago
Bigger buttons on mobile devices are better. For people with constrained motor skills or visually challanged it allows for better usability. It probably explains the higher usage rates. This is a great move to the better for these minorities. Thanks! — theking2 49 secs ago
6:12 PM
I feel that Stack Exhange, Inc betrayed the community. It looks like "Stack Overflow", as the brand/name, was stolen from the Q&A site/community, and somehow this brand is used to sell stuff claiming that the betrayed community endorses it. — Rubén 51 secs ago
that would be a violation of the reference rule. What's your point? If AI generated content is attributed to the AI, that would be the end of it. Correctness, above all, should be the guiding attribute. Moderators and users alike have been very against removing incorrect content from the site, because "they may not know", so maybe we should just do that. Remove incorrect content, no matter the source. — Braiam 32 secs ago
7:10 PM
I admit it, but if 16% of people want 100% taxes... we shouldnt have 100% taxes @Trilarion — Starship is go for launch 40 secs ago
7:37 PM
@EJoshuaS - Stand with Ukraine: I think there was an MSO post where someone claimed that (or wanted an explanation). But I can't locate it right now. It was within the last one or two months. — This_is_NOT_a_forum 7 secs ago
@Starshipisgoforlaunch Just for the sake of argument :) the following stuff: This isn't a democracy. The overlords have decided that it's 100% taxes so it is. 16% of us seems to be fine with that. The others are free to go at any time. Btw. I'm one of the others. That's actually not what I wanted to convey originally, just that it's not true that everyone dislikes the new button style. — Trilarion 24 secs ago
Oh, btw, the user isn't suspended in that case anyways, only the post deleted with a comment. Maybe that's what should be the policy, just delete the posts. — Braiam 59 secs ago
7:54 PM
I think discord is the best option as there are the most people listening / interacting. There may even be places on that discord where you could have some kind of neutral discussion. — Lino 17 secs ago
No. It's important to know a question or answer was edited, and your suggestion would lead to losing that info. Even high rep users can make bad edits, and people better have easy way to see something was edited, and take a look. If anything, better show both, the last actual author and the last editor. How to design this is above my paycheck though. — Shadow The Spring Wizard 57 secs ago
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