Tavern on the Meta

12:29 AM

@TimStone Oh holy crap, did you really?

12:54 AM

I know you are all jealous of my making some beautiful bowtie pasta with a tomato sauce and sausage and chicken tidbits, but ... go make your own. However, if you're local, you can have some of my cabernet sauvignon

Moshe

Actually, microwave pizza and butternut squash FTW!

And I don't drink, so there.

:-)

drachenstern

Yeah but you're not local Mr. NE USA

drachenstern

2:00 AM

You people are too quiet

Michael Petrotta

"you people"?

Tim Stone

@drachenstern Two days in a row, second week in a row. yawns

drachenstern

@TimStone yeah, I would be yawning too

I'm debating going 5 feet to get my headphones so I can listen to a vimeo which may or may not be entirely silent ...

Tim Stone

I just realized I haven't eaten dinner, so I'm thinking about doing that.

drachenstern

as you can see, I made something scrumdiddlyumptios above

Tim Stone

2:04 AM

I also saw the part where you weren't sharing :P

drachenstern

not my vino

I changed my mind

the vino was better than the pasta

I have three heaping servings of pasta and sausage and chicken to whoever shows up

Tim Stone

2:20 AM

I decided to make salmon instead. ;)

drachenstern

nom nom

if I had loaf bread I would have fried some spam I think

Moshe

3:42 AM

@drachenstern So sorry Mr. Cowboy!

@drachenstern Spam? As in the Monty Python bit?

Spam! Spam! Spam! Spam! Spam! Spaahaaaaahaaaahaaam!

drachenstern

@Moshe as in

Spam (food)

Spam (officially trademarked as SPAM®) is a canned precooked meat product made by the Hormel Foods Corporation. The labeled ingredients in the classic variety of Spam are chopped pork shoulder meat, with ham meat added, salt, water, modified potato starch as a binder, and sodium nitrite as a preservative. Spam's gelatinous glaze, or aspic, forms from the cooling of meat stock. The product has become part of many jokes and urban legends about mystery meat, which has made it part of pop culture and folklore. Varieties of Spam include Spam Classic, Spam Hot & Spicy, Spam Less Sodium, S...

Moshe

Ah, well, glad to see it only took two pings to bring this room back to life.

Oddly, I feel silly for taking a political science core instead of a Chem core.

drachenstern

I would've done it in one but I was reading

you might find that PoliSci has more benefit in the real world

I have not written enough code tonight :(

Moshe

It's called "People, Power, and Politics".

@drachenstern I noticed that my personal projects list was too long. So I just started crossing things off mercilessly.

drachenstern

it happens

Moshe

3:45 AM

They'll pop up again soon enough - right when I'm another project is in its prime.

Speaking of reading - they gave everyone this book to read.

amazon.com/Brother-Im-Dying-Edwidge-Danticat/dp/1400041155

drachenstern

They gave or they assigned?

Moshe

Well, I suspect it is just Social Stimulus.

Yay. we're going to discuss some book in the Fall that we all coincidentally read.

I'm not sure if it was an assignment or what, but I'll read it. I enjoy reading.

It's something I can do when I can't code. (Like on sabbath when we don't use electricity, or when my computer is on my desk and I'm elsewhere.)

Anywho.

drachenstern

you don't use electricity on the sabbath?

wow

Moshe

@drachenstern Well, if a light is on, we leave it. We use a crock-pot. However, we don't flip lightswitches, use phones or computers etc.

So, if I want a light in my room, I can use a lamp with a manual cover, or leave it on.

drachenstern

So I hesitate to point out the futility of lightswitches when I'm sure you flush the toilet

but I realize this is a culture going back way longer than you or I have any influence over, so it's moot

Moshe

3:51 AM

Electricity on Shabbat in Jewish law

Many Jews who observe Shabbat (the Sabbath), especially within Orthodox Judaism, have the practice of refraining from turning electricity on or off during Shabbat. In most cases they also abstain from making adjustments to the intensity of an electrical appliance as well. Authorities of Jewish law have disagreed about the basis of this prohibition since the early 20th century. Turning on an incandescent light bulb violates the Biblical prohibition against igniting a fire (Hebrew: הבערה, hav’arah) according to a nearly unanimous consensus of authorities. However, the reasons for prohibiti...

drachenstern

I just think it's funny that the culture has decided "this is allowed" and "that is not allowed"

when flushing the toilet is just as much "work" as flipping a light switch is.

Moshe

Not saying that the wikipedia article is completely accurate, as I haven't read it.

drachenstern

it boggles my non-cuturally focused mind

Moshe

@drachenstern No, flushing takes more effort. :P (Light switches don't offer as much resistance as a toilet-handle)

drachenstern

but light switches use electricity, and so do the pumps to run the water into your home

both are electrically powered

both are "heat"

Moshe

3:53 AM

I didn't make the rules.

drachenstern

(cos the pump uses motors which are much hotter than an incandescent bulb but can share the work)

@Moshe I know

that's why I said that it boggles the mind

Moshe

The toilet itself is completely manual.

drachenstern

@Moshe the mechanism in your house may be, but the supporting mechanisms are very distinctly not.

Moshe

@drachenstern In that vein we don't use hot water taps because it causes water to be drawn into the boiler, which is cooking.

(Cooking/heat/whatever)

drachenstern

so an inline heater that uses electricity and no spark is against the rules huh?

what about if you lived in a (large apartment) building with a boiler that the rest of us were also using?

Moshe

3:55 AM

@drachenstern I actually do live in a building. ;-)

@drachenstern I can't be sure how much water is in the boiler and I don't know if my last ounce of water is going to cause more to enter the boiler.

But that is a good question.

And, I'm sure the answer is more complex than that, but yea.

drachenstern

any use of water will always cause more water to enter the boiler

but your use of water in such a situation will never cause the boiler to "come on" as the boiler was going before and will be going after

Moshe

Right.

But I can't know that. It depends on how the boiler is set up.

drachenstern

No. That's true of all boilers in large buildings

Moshe

Although, I'll point out that certain "food-related" prohibitions are permitted on holidays. (cooking included)

@drachenstern I don't know. I suppose I could look into it.

drachenstern

well, I know it's a cultural concern I don't have to live with

Moshe

4:00 AM

Hehe

It makes a lot more sense if you grow up with it. There are lots of little details.

drachenstern

No, it continues to make as little sense

Moshe

The prohibitions of Sabbath are taken from the 39 kinds of "work" used in the building of the tabernacle and then the temple after it.

drachenstern

You're just closer to the situation, so it's kind of like trying to map the forest but never being allowed to go outside the trees

Moshe

@drachenstern How does being "closer to the situation" help things?

drachenstern

it makes it "lot more sense if you grow up with it"

I wouldn't say it "helps things"

Moshe

4:02 AM

ok

drachenstern

if you had lights on a timer would that be "using electricity on the Sabbath"?

Moshe

No.

Timers may be used, if they are set up beforehand.

To clarify - we can benefit from, but not interact with, electricity.

So, technically a TV on a timer is probably OK, but no orthodox people would do so.

drachenstern

> "To clarify - we can benefit from, but not interact with, electricity." provided we adhere to a set of guidelines which were developed in a time when electricity and the current modern life were not even a consideration, and that primarily had no account for the option to adapt once those traditions were written down, but prior to their being written down there were most likely lots of alternative traditions that were not recorded ...

that's the problem I have with it

those guidelines were originally more fluid than they are now

and I realize I haven't spent 20 years of my life devoted to the study of the religion and the culture

Moshe

Ok.

I'm not telling you to observe these rules.

:-)

drachenstern

but I have spent 20 years of my life (in passing) reading on all the world's cultures as I may have been able to

so I just am bewildered by what some people force upon themselves

like my mother and her Southern Baptist Church

Moshe

4:08 AM

@drachenstern I hear that perspective but I disagree.

drachenstern

@Moshe I know, and that's cos you grew up too close to the situation

Moshe

hehe

drachenstern

that's my philosophy anyways ;)

of course, I'm also pretty sure that I'm a hedonist, so ...

So what other classes are you taking?

we diverged off of that pretty fast

Moshe

hehe

I was typing a response, but sure.

fishes up course receipt

drachenstern

go ahead with the response

Moshe

4:12 AM

Lost it, one sec.

Oh, right, was about to discuss two points.

It seems to me that you aren't aware of a lot surprising aspects of Judaism.

And I quote:

23 mins ago, by drachenstern

you don't use electricity on the sabbath?

Also, Jewish tradition is all about that - tradition. Part of why I spend what some might call a disproportionate amount of time studying "old books" is to keep that tradition alive.

drachenstern

my point was rather that it was about tradition

Moshe

Ok.

drachenstern

tradition that doesn't really keep a lot of other aspects alive

Moshe

Well, yes and no.

drachenstern

if they really wanted to keep to tradition they would not have started using electricity

Moshe

4:14 AM

Fun fact:

drachenstern

look at the amish

they take tradition to an extreme

that's what I call keeping a tradition of your elders

Moshe

If a Torah (bible scroll) has one letter changed, it is "invalid" and can't be used.

drachenstern

doing things one way on one day and another way on another day to me is the definition of insanity

also, I'm a hedonist ;) (I think)

Moshe

@drachenstern What are you referring to?

drachenstern

@Moshe well that makes sense. If a dictionary has one word wrong, it's not a good dictionary

@Moshe "you can use electricity 6 days a week, but not 7"

Moshe

4:16 AM

@drachenstern Oh, no. you misunderstand the concept of the Jewish Sabbath then.

drachenstern

@Moshe no, I assure you I don't

Moshe

@drachenstern Do you know what the purpose of it is?

drachenstern

I think there's a big difference between "make sure that you take one day a week and remember the past and do no work (effectively giving the body and the mind rest)" and "don't turn on the light in the bathroom"

Moshe

@drachenstern Almost.

It's not just "remember the past".

drachenstern

I was generalizing

It wasn't supposed to be 100% accurate

Moshe

4:18 AM

Ok.

:-)

drachenstern

my point is, I know what the point of the Sabbath is

Moshe

Ok

drachenstern

I just think that it's a little odd to enforce things like "don't turn on the lights"

the rules against fire were for a different reason

Moshe

@drachenstern What was that reason then?

drachenstern

Just like the rules against eating pork were for a different reason

just like the rules to destroy a house which cannot have the mold/mildew in it removed rather than to tear out part of the wall and rebuild it

Moshe

4:20 AM

You said your Mother is South Baptist, yes?

drachenstern

Altho, to be honest, I forget all the rules about the whole mold/mildew thing, I would have to go look that up again

@Moshe yes

Moshe

I take it that that's where you get your basic bible knowledge from? (Although you presumably have other sources too?)

drachenstern

no, I didn't really get any of it from her

Moshe

@drachenstern That actually only applies during the times of the temple.

@drachenstern Oh, ok.

drachenstern

@Moshe that would be dumb. People still get mold/mildew in their homes

Moshe

4:21 AM

And mold/mildew is a rather interesting translation of that.

drachenstern

the intent was that mold/mildew spread in a way that you can't track them

Moshe

@drachenstern No, because I don't think that mold is an accurate description of that.

drachenstern

so if you can't get it out fast, you need to get it out altogether

Moshe

Huh?

Not quite my understanding, what are you referring to?

drachenstern

have you ever seen a house built of mortar get mold/mildew?

Moshe

4:22 AM

I barely see houses. (JK) :-)

drachenstern

do you know how much work it takes for a building superintendent/owner/manager to get mold/mildew out of a building?

you live in the perfect city for asking people about that

Moshe

A lot of effort, but last I checked that's not the intent of the rule, nor is "mildew" the correct word.

drachenstern

So look it up this Sabbath and let me know ;)

Moshe

lol

drachenstern

The point is that almost all of the rules of the temples were about living a long full life without endangering said life

not doing work on the Sabbath was a way of making sure the body could get rest

which we all know the body needs

animals need rest too, just as much as we do

getting mold/mildew out of a house was about living a healthy life, as was not eating pork

Moshe

4:24 AM

I really think that you're misunderstanding a lot things, but only marginally.

drachenstern

I think you think I'm taking them literally, whereas I'm looking at the bigger picture

Moshe

I'm really not in the frame of mind to go through everything now. Also, I am not so full of myself to claim I know everything.

drachenstern

I never said I know everything. I said I was looking at a bigger picture and that I didn't care to know all the details.

Moshe

Ok.

drachenstern

If you ever hear me say I know everything, feel free to punch me in the mouth

Moshe

4:26 AM

@drachenstern And I will use jQuery for that.

drachenstern

lmao

Moshe

$.punch("@drachenstern")

drachenstern

indeed

Moshe

Ok, about my classes...

Thinking Mathematically

drachenstern

eh?

Moshe

4:27 AM

That's like a basic math, which I feel would be good for me (being several years out of HS and not touching much math since.)

I think it's algebra and whatnot.

drachenstern

If you're a good programmer it'll come back pretty quickly

you really need to be able to get through Cal2 before you leave school

Moshe

Of course. Calculus is a core for a CS degree.

Next up: Intro to Programming C++

\o/ a real programming class.

And...

drachenstern

no, Cal2 is usually not

I don't know the curriculum at your school, so I can't say for sure.

Moshe

Oh, well, I'll se how it goes. I have time for that.

drachenstern

Yes you do

Moshe

4:30 AM

Composition 1 - a core writing class.

drachenstern

I always encourage CS kids to do a full minor in Math tho (since I did it)

Wait until you do languages and grammars

you're going to flip a lid on the stuff you learn in that class

I imagine you're going to write a couple of DSLs or compilers

Moshe

DSLs?

drachenstern

Exactly

Moshe

heh

People, Power, Politics - a core

And then, something they force on Freshmen - I have no clue what this class is but

Personal Counseling

Unless that's just meeting a counselor for some reason or another.

drachenstern

yeah, usually

is it a 1 hour course?

Moshe

4:33 AM

is doing maths in his head

Longer

drachenstern

huh?

are you doing quarters or semesters?

Moshe

Semesters

drachenstern

oh, lol

that has NOTHING to do with "hours"

every class is usually 1, 3 or 4 hours

until you get into graduate, and then you usually see 6 hour classes

Moshe

That one is actually once a week, but all the others are twice a week

It's only 2 credits.

drachenstern

credits = hours

Moshe

4:35 AM

Oh, ok.

Yea, so that's a 2 credit/hour course.

drachenstern

so as you see, a 1:35 hr (I think was the math) course counts as 2 hours of instruction

usually in my experience it's 45-50 minutes of instruction = 1 credit hour

Moshe

Why, homework?

drachenstern

no, you should be doing as much homework as you're meeting for classes

Moshe

Oh, ok.

drachenstern

so if you meet 3 hours a week, you should be doing 3 hours a week in homework

Moshe

4:36 AM

I shall find out... :-D

drachenstern

the classes I actually learned in I did

Moshe

Well, this means I have a summer to plan for.

drachenstern

Oh I took classes EVERY summer

Moshe

They don't let incoming Freshman take summer semester.

drachenstern

usually because you don't know what you're doing yet

that's not a dig on freshman, that's just experience

Moshe

4:38 AM

Fair enough.

I found it funny though, that I was able to plug in my iPhone to the computers there several times throughout the day.

drachenstern

why was that funny?

Moshe

Well, generally, if your somewhere and your phone is dead, you're out of luck.

drachenstern

I .. don't run into that problem

Moshe

I use my iPhone a lot.

drachenstern

I also carry a iPhone cord with me cos I carry my laptop with me so I have my bag ...

Moshe

4:40 AM

ditto, but usually, I am plugged in half a day anyway when coding apps.

The way they do Freshman registration is through these group appointments.

drachenstern

Yeah, I had to sit through that until I convinced the head of that group that I knew what I was doing

with seven transcripts under my belt, I was finally able to convince them I just needed an advisor

Moshe

seven transcripts?

drachenstern

Sadly they made me take Trig my first semester because of that whole process where I found out too late that I could've forced the issue and had an advisor much sooner

I ... took classes where and when I was able

Biology 1 and Composition 1 are the same everywhere.

Especially Comp1 after you've taken it three times

Moshe

3 times?

Where did you go?

drachenstern

I never said I knew everything :p

Sometimes having several different profs for the same class is a good thing

I went to Southern University in Wadley AL (yeah, that's the one, right out past BFE)

I went to Gadsden State University in Anniston AL

I went to Harry M Ayers State Technical College in Anniston AL

I went to Clayton State College and University in southern Atlanta

Moshe

4:45 AM

Um.

That's a lot.

drachenstern

one class here, two classes there

Moshe

@drachenstern So in short, you're edumacated.

drachenstern

something like that

Moshe

sumthimg lic dat

drachenstern

more > sumting lykdat

Moshe

4:47 AM

I was kinda disappointed when I was told that my Hebrew regents is an exemption from the language requirement.

I was looking forward to an excuse to take a language.

drachenstern

So there's nothing that says that you can't take more languages

Moshe

Right.

drachenstern

you do have to take electives

Moshe

Did I mention their concept of a "Learning Community"?

drachenstern

I'm not sure, sounds familiar

Moshe

4:48 AM

They package several courses together so that you have the same classmates for several classes/

And then they assign older/more experienced students to mentor the group.

So they force you to take a class package for the first semester.

Meh.

drachenstern

Well, it'll definitely be a good introduction to collegiate life

Moshe

Perhaps.

drachenstern

and the friends you make in College will keep with you for quite a few years

Moshe

@drachenstern Unless I become a-certain-well-known-tech-mogul and backstab my college acquaintances while making a website-that-lets-you-poke-people-and-hide-personal-info-behind-poor-security-features.

In which case... yeah...

drachenstern

I don't see that happening, but sure

Moshe

4:53 AM

Ja, just pointing out the edge case.

Like any good programmer knows - gotta plan for the edge cases - right?

OK.

@drachenstern - Gut Abend. I have a book to read for school.

drachenstern

@Moshe and to you

Moshe

(Been a long time since I was able to say that. :-D)

drachenstern

I need to walk my mutt and find my pillow

Moshe

@drachenstern Danke. Bis Morgen.

drachenstern

ciao

Moshe

4:55 AM

Tschüss

Reno

7:31 AM

I wish there was a way of muting chat conversations on SO questions.

Some people think that this is a step by step tech support website. =T

Pekka's other trolling account

12:32 PM

I notice downvotes are free now!

We will see how that works out. I'm optimistic.

Trufa

2:25 PM

Question, how do you pronounce django?

I haver read it thousands of time, but I never actually heard it

yesterday was the first time I said it outloud

and it felt so weird

is it: dajango

or more like 'jango

balpha

"dj" as the j in jungle, "ango" as in "tango"

Trufa

@balpha that is a very very complicated word to put in between spanish

you have to switch to English accent to be able to pronunce it

balpha

not if you're a star wars fan

Yi Jiang

I just think of it as 'dee-yan-go', never actually heard anyone say it though

balpha

or how do you pronounce Jango Fett?

Trufa

2:28 PM

@balpha I'm clearly NOT a starwars fan

:)

(don't know who that is)

(sorry?)

balpha

Boba's father :)

Jango is to Stormtrooper as Stack Overflow is to OSQA

2

Trufa

starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jango_Fett

ok, some day I will have to watch starwars

Thanks @balpha !

Moshe

2:43 PM

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporf

It's clearly Jango with a "d" at the beginning. D-jango

drachenstern

3:19 PM

@Pekkasothertrollingaccount you can also recalc your score to remove previous downvote losses

@Moshe I thought the D was rather silent

@Trufa until then consider your nerd card revoked :p

George Marian

lol

Pekka's other trolling account

3:38 PM

If it's Star Wars time in the tavern, here's a nice article:

Obi-Wan Kenobi Is Dead, Vader Says

Trufa

@drachenstern I never had it in the first place.

hehe

I don't know how I managed to go through my whole life having no clue about it.

It is very strange considered the amount of time I've spent watching fims

Yi Jiang

4:17 PM

So, guess what happens when you try to improve a post someone else approves it, and the edit goes through combined with the new feature that blocks edits from clashing by rejecting old edits

drachenstern

4:29 PM

Was that a question, comment, explanation or rant?

Yi Jiang

5:01 PM

Rant, mostly. It's obviously a bug, so I'm also wondering if anyone else has reported it

ircmaxell

is having no luck with this server migration

Yi Jiang

is currently having fun with VNC, hmmm...

2

Can't seem to match the server's screen resolution to the client's

ircmaxell

I just crashed a WinServer2k8 server by issuing a STOP SLAVE; MySQL command. I mean took the entire server down. As in crashed the core OS...

Trufa

@ircmaxell hmm that sounds not so fun

ircmaxell

No, but at least it happened now rather than when it goes into production

the only problem is there's no time for things like this to go wrong

Yi Jiang

5:05 PM

Well that's brilliant, trying to adjust the server's resolution caused the client to be kicked

ircmaxell

lol

ircmaxell

5:21 PM

Yeah, the server literally hung

not even bluescreen. Just 100% stopped responding to anything

Wes

0

Q: Oracle- stored Proc

I'm writing a stored procedure. Please let me know if there is any good syntax to accomplish this: I have three tables: table1, table2, table3. I want to join table1 to table2 but if the primary key in table2 is zero, then I want to join table1 with table3. Is there a way to conditionally ...

stored-procedures

drachenstern

0

Q: Using perfmon, which counters should I pay particular attention to when debugging ASP.NET and SQL performance problems?

Related Perfmon: which counter identifies that threads are waiting? but sadly abandoned by the asker Using perfmon, which counters should I pay particular attention to when debugging ASP.NET and SQL performance problems? Some system stats in case that makes any difference SQL Server 2008 (...

sql-server-2008 windows-server-2008-r2 perfmon

Wes

@drachenstern dunno

drachenstern

Yeah, me either

Moshe

5:41 PM

@drachenstern Mostly silent, but not completely. But then again, I'm not not a django djenuis

is drawing pixel art

Hogan

I guess I should go there to answer it...

@drachenstern What stack are you using in the app?

drachenstern

@Hogan uh, IIS and ASP.NEt

Hogan

@drachenstern Are you using anything funky... entity framework mvc etc etc

drachenstern

no, just webforms

Hogan

Ok then follow suggestion in the blog post linked.

drachenstern

5:51 PM

what about IIS tho? Got a similar one on IIS?

ircmaxell

6:07 PM

Ok, so I just wrote a pair of python scripts to try to load test Win8

one creates a 1 gb file, and then just seeks to a random position and then either reads a byte or writes a byte (in a tight loop). The other allocates 30gb of ram in a list, and then sets and reads random positions

Tyler Chacha

Hello

Moshe

7:01 PM

@ircmaxell Windows 8?

This slashdot article makes me want to write to legislators at all levels of government to change the corruption that is our retarded copyright laws.

Seriously - suing someone for an "Upgrade" button?

Pikachu. I sue you!

cultofmac.com/…

ircmaxell

2k8

Moshe

@ircmaxell o

Seriously folks, this straight up insane. I'm going to patent nostrils and you better stop breathing through your nose unless you want to pay me licensing fees. Also, as part of my terms, you had better get a tattoo that says "Nostrils licensed by Moshe Berman".

ircmaxell

lol

Tyler Chacha

7:38 PM

lol

Wes

7:52 PM

lol

It is a crazy story

Hogan

8:53 PM

@drachenstern Just saw this. The link posted should cover that -- machine memory and such.