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2:30 AM
@ShadowWizard as far as we know :D
 
3 hours later…
5:04 AM
5:18 AM
22 messages moved to Chimney
 
3 hours later…
8:29 AM
@Sha done ;-) Next time, use a flag instead of a comment, it boosts my modding scores :P
I thought Stack Overflow was supposed to be a resource for knowledge, not a product to buy. — Andreas moved to Codidact 2 days ago
@Tinkeringbell hehe! Will do! :D
... it is a resource for knowledge. and SOfT is a product to buy. these two statements of fact are not in conflict, and strictly speaking, promoting SOfT on SO's homepage is not telling people to buy SO (SO's knowledge).
@starball why not just onebox the comment?
@ShadowWizard is that not exactly what I did? or what is a comment onebox?
8:40 AM
oh lol, wait
waffles!
@ShadowWizard lol
Thought the onebox look different. :D
(and that you manually linked to the comment)
@JNat thanks for rev 6! I was actually contemplating making this edit after my first/second reading of the post, but decided against it for reasons I can't remember now. maybe I thought it was clear enough at that point.
8:45 AM
you got it ;)
@starball ah, well, and I posted whole answer for that.
hehe I found a way to post into a room without being in the room. But I do wonder, is this really a bug? @balpha you know what I mean?
my sock has weird activity now in chat...
in Wizards Den, 1 min ago, by Shadow Wizard
user image
@starball honestly I'm taken aback by how much people seem to get behind this comment, which to me just reads like... vitriol? not sure what word to use. like- don't get me wrong. I as a user wouldn't want to see a home page that spends so much space promoting products, but this comment is not... very substantial for discussion, and as I said, I don't think it's a valid argument if it's even arguing anything.
@ShadowWizard Yeah that's kind of by design ("being in a room" means "actively monitoring" if you will). The "last message" thing is weird though
@starball if you deem comment as not needed enough, you can flag, no harm done.
@balpha yeah, in the room itself it's fine.
So just some missing synch.
@ShadowWizard I'm pretty sure @KyleMit was talking about a "sprint sprint", which are two weeks in most teams
9:00 AM
@ShadowWizard I take some sort of pride in my flags and don't like it on an emotional level when my flags get declined- whether I agree or not. especially with MSE being a meta (/main, but also meta) site, I don't personally find enough reason or precedent to flag this as NLN.
@starball ah, OK then. So you can wait for comment downvotes to be a thing, might be useful for such cases. ;-)
@balpha hmm? What's "sprint sprint"? Sounds good, do elaborate! :-D
Well, a regular sprint. In the scrum sense.
actually I think I've partially interpreted that comment wrong. I thought it was taking issue with promotion of SOfT and other company products on the homepage, but on reading again, I assume it's taking issue with calling SO a "product"... which is just staff lingo. honestly I find this a little needlessly banal.
I dunno. maybe my general image of the commenter is feeding into a more negative response to their comment.
9:17 AM
I don't see the vitriol. I see the annoyance at another sales pitch.
You say that it "does not contribute to the discussion", I say it provides evidence of dissent and a reason for the downvotes.
Read that answer again.
I will also point out that a line like
> Activation is not about nagging more users to sign up.
already gasping for air in a sea of buzzwords also doesn't come up as very sincere after things like the recent Doofenshmirtz's "Google Login-Inator"
ok I've read it again and my mind has kind of changed.
Now, if one wanted to actually be blunt, one may also point out that it is quite useless to focus on retention if you don't also focus on giving existing users a reason to trust you.
I agree. I don't like the buzzwords, and I agree the usage of "product" terminology in the analogy with SO is not very culturally aligned. it's just that if I have the patience, I can look past it and see what appears to me to be good intent and goals. what I am not left pleased with is just a not very substantiated feeling of "how hard can it be" to solve some of those problems
@SPArcheon yes, I actually considered posting a slightly cynical comment about that on first reading buy decided against it. I think I've already conveyed my thoughts about that enough (at least for now) elsewhere for SE staff to see.
and with the announcement of the community asks sprint, I want to have a more positive bent in general (based on a hope that it sticks)
9:41 AM
@starball hope for the best, expect the worst?
@starball I am still quite angry that the company has opted to surgically avoid every question that could point out at their issues. Asking clarifications about the company standing on OpenAI partners license violations? AVOIDED.
Asking if pushing constant "pwetty please log in" pop-ups in the face of anon users was part of a "we no longer support anon user" initiative (yes, I saw)? DODGED. MULTIPLE TIMES EVEN.
Asking about clarifications on the data protection options that the GDPR requires to be given (in a clear and understandable way I may add, because purposely foggy options are considered an infrangement too)? EVADED TWICE.
For all the above, I am not surprised if as they continue they propaganda to "improve" the user "activation" other users go around spreading their vision so that more and more eyes can "see the truth".
And I am not mad. Actually, I am quite amused.
@SPArcheon not sure "opted", more like "having their hands cuffed".
On one side we have the company spreading the "We happy few" happiness pills. On the other the resistance giving out red pills
@starball SO I think part of the issue is the company forgot that the public plaform/Q&A/chat is a product
@ShadowWizard I won't call "having their hands cuffed" anything that actually profits them.
9:52 AM
Its something they build - it adds value to things, everything else relies on it being healthy
@JourneymanGeek Welcome to the truth.
Old scheme:
> Resources: users
Product: knowledge
Price: goodwill.
New vision:
> Resource: knowledge
Product: LLM
Price: users
Jeff and Joel had the sharing of knowledge as the final objective of the site.
Prosus apparently has knowledge as a stepping stone to feed LLM.
Best case, the public plaform/Q&A/chat is the semi-finished product.
10:10 AM
"I am still angry [...] I am not mad". ???
@SPArcheon I think the meta audience is a pretty critical bunch that won't be as susceptible to some sort of "brainwashing" as other web crowds.
@starball you can use it to your advantage tho
These people stayed and love this platform
@starball Different "direct object". "I am still mad at the company for ...." VS "I am not mad at those users"
10:27 AM
@JourneymanGeek scared
I was hoping it would read CLOSEVOTE-PLZ
ah lol
yeah SE turns tags into lower case
20
Q: Is there any reason why tags are lower-cased?

MarounIt might be a stupid question, but I always wondered (and was afraid to ask :)) why tags are written in lowercase whereas sometimes it's confusing and not really correct? For example, IMHO, JComboBox is a better name than jcombobox. The same about java and Java. Is there any specific reason why...

Anyway, fixed.
:D
so why no flagz???
usually reported spam get at least a couple, in 5 minutes
:/
well perhaps closing and ordinary deletion will be faster than waiting for spam flag.
(need only 3, not 4, users to delete.)
11:11 AM
hm
I swear I am getting exactly one downvote a day on recent posts, I wonder if I annoyed someone, or I annoyed lots of people :D
@ShadowWizard +1
@JourneymanGeek Can I mock you with a welcoming "Tim's key?"
12:13 PM
@JourneymanGeek On here?
@Tinkeringbell yeah, I did quick check and he has three downvotes on three different posts, one each day in the last 3 days.
Likely someone annoyed at you, but meh... you can take it! :D
12:35 PM
Just because you can take it doesn't mean you have to...
I'll keep an eye out.
(if I remember)
@Tinkeringbell sadly, few seems to agree there, and most will indeed reply with "Tim's Key"
@Tinkeringbell May the Power of the Key Be With You!
@ShadowWizard Key-> Keyblade -> Kingdom Hearts -> Disney....
@SPArcheon well it's fine for mods to try and find serial voters and handle it.
@SPArcheon yeah I did play it a bit.
@Tinkeringbell this time the one that implicit claimed you are Tinkerbell in disguise with the Disney reference was Shadow, I deny any responsibility in this.
12:41 PM
hehe
hides
Forex (two hours old, including bonus answer to delete) @rene @Mith @Spe @Sonic
rpa running on the other screen, I can spare 5 seconds for a vote.
@Tinkeringbell yup
@SPArcheon I mean, that's the best explaination
@JourneymanGeek totally. Realistic, even.
@ShadowWizard pretty much
@Tinkeringbell if I could be bothered I'd raise a flag, but I don't even think a few votes are worth bothering a CM over
12:56 PM
Just like most MLP related post on Sci-Fi getting exactly one vote. Not an hater at all, just Tim's Key (or whatever else one can use to brush off the issue and ignore users abusing the system)
1:15 PM
@SPArcheon I know you have a crusade going against that joke, but that's not what the joke is for. If this continues, it deserves investigation. If the investigation returns nada, we can assume Tim indeed lost his keys.
I don't care what 'most will indeed reply with'. To be honest, I doubt this is what 'most will indeed reply with'.
@JourneymanGeek I can keep an eye out, no worries. Wasn't going to directly escalate it to a CM XD
1:29 PM
@SPArcheon that somewhat different, as it's targeting a group of people, or more accurate specific topic, so worse. Did you actually tried to do anything? Mod flags? "Contact us" to SE staff?
@Tinkeringbell depends how it's being asked, IMO. When asked in good faith and not "I got downvotes! You all hate me!!1!!" way, then yeah, it does deserve some attention, I guess.
@Tinkeringbell I don't have a crusade against the joke, I just find it amusing that said joke is often abused to "swipe off" the need to actually look into potential issues.
@SPArcheon I found them! His keys were in my closet!
1:54 PM
@starball If you're going to make critique of me, you can at least do me the favour of replying with a comment such that I actually get a notification for it, instead of bringing it up in a space where we have both blocked each other.
I'm generally tired of how you freeze me out only to then talk about me behind my back. Stop it.
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact how did you know you were critiqued?
@JourneymanGeek Noticed a strange trace in the chat.
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact oh no. That means Tim was there. Why were you hiding @Tim in your closet?!
Or did it have other purpose?
1:56 PM
@SPArcheon I think there's a difference between expecting an explanation for every downvote, noticing a pattern, and wondering which one of many slightly controversial things it is, or if I annoyed multiple people
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact blip in the Chatrix.
@JourneymanGeek I could post some reference but the chat search support is horrible and I am too lazy to workaround that.
@JourneymanGeek well, mod that does not annoy many people might be considered as... not a very good/active mod. ;-)
@ShadowWizard Had to keep him safe, you know.
I'm not a mod here though :D
@SPArcheon also, I think Tim disowned that meme?
1:58 PM
@JourneymanGeek many users on SU might have gained enough repz here too.... ;)
@JourneymanGeek ah, he did? Don't remember such a thing.
@ShadowWizard other than maybe 2 -3 people I think I'm still a fairly popular mod
Well he disowned all his MSE contents, but globally by deleting account.
somewhat before that
@JourneymanGeek It's not funny. Starball has repeatedly done this thing, where he brings up my comments here or elsewhere in chat, only to throw negative remarks at them. He clearly doesn't like me, and has also refused to tell me why. I've also tried working productively with him elsewhere, yet he just freezes me out. It's bordering bullying. I'm sick of it.
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact the key thing
I'm not always remembering this reply thing and I'm a wee bit tuckered out, I took on something that ended up with me biting off more than I could chew lol
2:11 PM
I have no idea what you're trying to say.
It might be because I'm in a considerably bad mood. Starball managed to get that effect on me. I eventually had to block him too, because his behaviour towards me was causing me great distress.
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact I mean I found that funny
@JourneymanGeek Oh, ok. Sorry, I misread your message due to the relative position in the chat.
That's reasonable
:/
@JourneymanGeek Ah, now your message makes sense to me. Yeah, I know you have a habit of not doing that, and when you do ping, it's often not with a reply. :P
I'm probably extra distracted today so explaining myself seems right
(mix of being a little depressed + being very tired after doing a bit of DIY that ended up being biting off more than I could chew
2:16 PM
What stuff were you doing?
My parents place came with louvered vents for window AC at floor level. We used to have a window AC there but We upgraded to a split and the vents were covered up with plywood. one day I realised the plywood was so rotted I could see light through the paint...
About 2 hours into replacing said plywood I realized there is no wood left at the bottom to nail it to, I went and bought concrete nails and apparently they got blunt when I naled them in the wall cause this old building seems to be made of adamantium
so basically, lots of physical work :D
and 2 trips to the hardware store
(the plywood was delivered though. The wonders of the internet!)
THEN I needed to help my parents witth the shopping
@JourneymanGeek That wood was also rotten? Was this on the outside walls?
uhhh
our walls are concrete
this is like a little window at ground level
so you'd put a window air con there instead of in a normal window
Oh, right, they were on the inside, but exposed to the outside.
2:23 PM
Yeah, that doesn't sound healthy. Can you not cover it up such that no moisture gets through what's now the window opening?
something like this
well yes
Nails, maybe get my big drill, lots of caulk
It kinda worked, but I'm exhausted
Painted wood, I hope?
PVC covered on both sides
better than what I had before
oh the old one was not painted on the outside side
2:27 PM
Yeah, that's why it rotted.
and this place needs a bit of maintainance :D
@JourneymanGeek Ground level? It looks like 5+ floors up level!
@DavidPostill my ground
I'm 25 stories up
the view is scary
and that's partially why I'm a little depressed :D. Ash would probably have thrown a fit at "the humans doing dangerous things"
and I quite miss having a dog, and I'm kinda having it extra rough the past few weeks for some reason ._.
@DavidPostill Tight city.
also, I'm less worried about rain than noise. those jackhammers ._.
2:32 PM
@JourneymanGeek How about an animal that doesn't take as much space and attention as a dog, to make it easier for those around you that don't want you to have another dog again?
@JourneymanGeek But the windows are strong, aren't they?
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact This happens periodically, Some day :D
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact for some obscure reason you reminded me of Nightmare City
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact its open lol
I nailed plywood to the INSIDE side
then chucked a lot of caulk on the margins
@JourneymanGeek I saw a few pictures or videos (can't remember exactly) of some skyscrapers in China, where they'd cheated, and installed really thin windows. You could pretty much break it by jumping into it. I can't imagine you have that issue?
Oh
the normal windows are fine
2:34 PM
@SPArcheon I am the city of nightmares.
also 70s buildings had half height windows, very hard to do that
generally people jumped out from between the blocks
not pretty
@JourneymanGeek One would think they were trying to follow the Star Wars style... My sister and her husband used to live in an apartment building from the 70s, too (10 floors tall, that's huge around these parts). They'd clearly installed glass fences on top of the original concrete fence, years ago. Yet I could still pretty easily bend over the glass fence. The original fence didn't even seem to reach my hips. Dangerous. No idea what they were thinking.
@JourneymanGeek Only two apartments per floor?
2:50 PM
4 on a point block, typically
@Tinkeringbell I can't flag this but - I lost souled this by mistake and the user self deleted. meta.stackexchange.com/questions/401149/…
could you kindly undelete it, and let the user know I messed up?
I never really understood wanting a bathroom next to the kitchen.
makes for easier plumbing
its all along one column
Unpleasant to live in, I'd assume.
not really
my apartment has it between the bedroom and kitchen. There's one variation with doors to both :D
Still you don't need to cross the kitchen to get to it.
And the smell has one other way to exit as well.
2:56 PM
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact "Star Wars style" == Sell to Disney?
@SPArcheon Fenceless platforms.
@SPArcheon retrofuturistic
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact I doubt you know what I am talking about.
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact It is not like The Jetsons had any fences either...
2:59 PM
@SPArcheon Ratchet and Clank is hit and miss with fences, too. Didn't mention them either.
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact nope
@SPArcheon Anime, then.
3:16 PM
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact technically neither.
I never went into looking at how that thing came to be. As most who saw that back then, I just stumbled upon one of the many repost.
Probably same years at Hatten är din?
The hat isn't mine.
3:43 PM
@JourneymanGeek Done
3:59 PM
thanks.
4:16 PM
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact I think the space, attention and emotional support is part of it really
 
1 hour later…
5:30 PM
@JourneymanGeek Well, then. I grew up with cats, and they were considerably less work with. They still wanted a lot of attention, all the time, but you didn't have to give them it like you do with dogs.
And no need to go out for walks with them.
My sister and her husband have a dog now. A Stafford Terrier, I think. He is super hyper.
He takes a lot of time and attention, and runs around like a crazy.
Staffordshire bull terrier, maybe?
 
1 hour later…
6:44 PM
@andreas, I think I've told you before, but maybe I haven't. There are things I dislike about you, but so far, I choose to treat that as my own perspective and not tell you that I think there's something wrong about you or the way you act. And I believe that's fine, and I believe that me blocking you in chat is fine.
I also believe that critiquing on the public platform the things you say on the public platform is fine even when I have blocked you. I don't personally consider this bullying. I don't believe I've said anything rude or unkind to you or about you. If a mod tells me to stop, I'll stop.
and so far, I haven't felt like discussing what I dislike about you because I just don't see it being constructive.
@wizzwizz4, in meta.stackexchange.com/a/401155/997587 I didn't read the whole post, but the last part stuck out. why do you find calling the knowledgebase "content" / "a corpus" offensive?
> Text corpus, in linguistics, a large and structured set of texts
> Speech corpus, in linguistics, a large set of speech audio files
> Corpus linguistics, a branch of linguistics
ah okay. so the connotation of it being data for language study / model training?
Yeah. The use as "a library shelf" / "the works of a person" is rare, these days: in context, it didn't occur to me. (If I'd have thought harder, I probably wouldn't have made the comment, but I'm trying to spend less time writing Meta Stack Exchange answers.)
cool thanks for popping in to reply. I'll read your full post later :)
6:54 PM
@wizzwizz4 I've actually seen it in that context much more often.
7:07 PM
@starball No, you have explicitly declined to answer that when I asked you, which was directly followed by a block on the respective chat server when I asked a year ago. I have attempted to constructively interact with you in the past, which has been met with silence. Freezing people out without at least giving them a good reason, does qualify as bullying in the real world.
The way you critique me is not pleasant. You could have done so with a reply to my comment, instead you do it in such a way that I am bound to miss it. That's not fine when you make negative remarks about my person. It should not take a moderator telling you for you to understand that what you're doing, is unkind towards me.
I don't know what I have done to you, so seeing you act that way, is hurtful. I also don't know why you seem to repeatedly bring up exactly my comments, but as you did state, it may be because they were written by me, not actually for what they say.
7:33 PM
It feels like being back in school where that one child speaks negatively behind your back for years, to everyone else, gradually tearing down your status, often leaving you well aware that it's happening, to then outright ignore you when you confront them about it. It's not pleasant.
7:54 PM
Serves coffee for @ShadowWizard
gulps coffee quickly
:D
becomes a Super Shadow
Great
wondering: am I a Shadow? Or a Wizard?
7:55 PM
oops
Wizard
But a Shadow one
I'd say 60% Shadow, 40% Wizard
They are not opposites
Though according to @SPA I'm actually Wizzard so maybe the opposite.
It's a mix
@Marco well in each mix, any component still has some percentage, e.g. 12% carrot in a salad.
7:58 PM
hmm
Even when they combine, it's not like any of them cease to exist, e.g. sugar and coffee.
The sugar is still there. ;)
@ShadowWizard Yes, it makes more sense
Glad to make more sense! :D
@ShadowWizard yes
So Batman, the Dark Knight, would you say there is a percentage of Knight and Dark?
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact just a quick intervention, as a side observer: I don't think @starball is trying to do it, at least not on purpose. I don't take sides, as I hope you know, just trying to make you see things in bit different perspective, and this way feel better.
We can discuss it in private, if you see any merit in it. :)
@Marco of course! It's a mix as well.
In that case mix of opposites.
Knight by its definition is good and just, so adding darkness makes it something different.
8:04 PM
I do not agree. It's just saying a dark knight, is a knight the opposite of darkness?
@Marco essentially, yes - in a pure Knight, there should be no darkness.
And the darkness in this case is because he is a bat, who generally does his activities at night
Darkness is not a bad thing in itself
ah wait
never mind.... I'm confusing it with D&D that I'm used to.
The night being dark, for example, is not a bad thing
The actual definition of Knight is:
> a man devoted to the service of a lady as her attendant or champion
8:07 PM
@ShadowWizard haha
@ShadowWizard good
It doesn't say anything about being good or evil.
yeah
Paladin is what I was thinking about.
hmmmm
But Batman isn't bad anyway
@Marco true
8:12 PM
:D
8:35 PM
Wow
@ShadowWizard Thanks, but my observation is different.
9:24 PM
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact I think you're taking this a little too personally. We discuss the appropriateness of content all the time without necessarily involving the author. I agree with @Sha's evaluation here. It is indeed frustrating to have people constantly criticize things you wrote, especially when they don't want to engage with you directly on it, but that is to a certain degree how the system here works.
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact fair.
!!/tea Spe
@ShadowWizard brews a cup of jasmine tea for @Spe
But @starball I do also think that isn't the best way to criticize a comment. If you think it's over the top, a flag is probably better than a message here. Starting a conversation about it is fine, but I'd probably recommend against linking or quoting a specific example in that case to avoid publicly calling individuals out, even inadvertently.
@Mithical well, it is useful when one wants to start discussion with the comment author, as JNat did in my case. But when that's not the intention, you're of course correct.
Aye, yeah, continuing a conversation in chat rather than comments is fine and I've done that a lot. But that's not what was happening here.
9:29 PM
Engaging comment author in chat is also fine sometimes, and does help to prevent both noise comments and possible escalation, as others in chat can calm things down in real time. Or give a better perspective.
*raises hand slightly* If we're... Airing dirty laundry, I've got so much to unload about how terrible @Sha is ;)
yay
listening to @Spe carefully :D
Well there was that one time you did that one thing. That wasn't the best. Aside from that, you're great!
Ah, the sock? Welp.
@ShadowWizard s/better/different/?
9:31 PM
It's wasn't my fault!
!!/blame
@DavidPostill eh, yeah I was actually going to write different. :)
@DavidPostill It's DavidPostill's fault.
2
@SmokeDetector ROFL.
9:32 PM
Blame the blamer!
!!/blame᠎ ‌​​⁣᠎᠎
@Mithical It's DavidPostill's fault.
!!/blame
@DavidPostill It's balpha's fault.
!!/blame
9:36 PM
@Marco It's Spevacus's fault.
!!/blame᠎ ‌‌‍
@Mithical It's Shog9's fault.
!!/blame !!/blame !!/blame !!/blame !!/blame !!/blame
@Marco It's Mithical's fault.
9:46 PM
@Mithical I understand your view on the situation, but yes, I do take it personally in this context. That’s the reason why I react badly to it, because of the way I perceive it. It’s not the first event in line. I’m fine with people bringing up stuff I wrote to discuss it, without my presence, too, but not when I judge it like I do with this context here. Anyway, I appreciate your perspective on the situation, so thanks.
!!/blame
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact It's DavidPostill's fault.
If we distribute blame here, I think we got a most guilty one. :P
It's me. My bad. I knew I should've never taken Tim's keys...
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact only 7 all time.
9:53 PM
@ShadowWizard But 3 today.
meh, bot prefers self blame, from the early days.
Apr 8, 2015 at 22:43, by SmokeDetector
@Undo It's SmokeDetector's fault.
:-D
Hard to search, but around 50 all time.
It had a bad conscience.
!!/blame᠎ ‌​⁣‍⁠‌
@Mithical It's SmokeDetector's fault.
Eyh, coincidence. Was it feeling bad for throwing blame around?
9:56 PM
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact I have no conscience as I have no consciousness. Beep boop.
10:11 PM
@ShadowWizard why?
10:49 PM
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact if I've made negative remarks about you that are rude or unkind, you can point me to them specifically, and I can apologize if I agree that I was out of step, and unconditionally apologize for your hurt feelings.
@AndreasmovedtoCodidact this is a public chat, and I know that you frequent it. I'm not speaking behind your back. and I think I've generally tried to avoid criticizing you as a person / personal attacks, instead only commenting on the things that you say or do.
@Mithical interesting. honestly, I wanted to vent, and decided to take it to chat instead of comments, thinking of this as a more conversational/causal place. as I've said earlier, I don't think the comment warranted flagging, so I didn't flag. I'll avoid linking or quoting the specific comment and just describe generically what I'm responding to if I want to do something similar in the future. I appreciate your advice. let me know if you have any more suggestions now or in the future.
also, I don't think the claim that I do this often is accurate. chat.meta.stackexchange.com/… the only quote in here that I would consider critique is the most recent one.
@Mithical so I don't think "constantly criticize" is that relevant here. honestly, most of the time with things andreas says, I just move on without speaking my mind.

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