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7:03 PM
@Rob Now that one I can get behind. Poetry that has rhyme and rhythm and all that extra stuff . . . Traditional Iranian poetry is like that, so its music is unmistakable.
Now though most of the new age poets do what Tink said, essentially force words into an order the words don't want to be forced to
Both versions of this are funny, but I won't post the other one:
There once was a man from Nantucket
Who kept all his cash in a bucket.
    But his daughter, named Nan,
    Ran away with a man
And as for the bucket, Nantucket.
@Mithical Spevacus asked me the same question in the comments and I answered it there. I'll say a bit more: I got a "ping" in my notifications (a red pop-up at the top of my screen) asking me whether I wanted to approve or reject the edit.
And, presumably, when you clicked through, it told you "this has been handled and your input is no longer required".
It looked to me like an extremely "trivial" edit, with the second part doing nothing but just rearranging words in my sentence.
And the part about blind people reading MSE via audio, had not occurred to me at all until Spevacus pointed it out to me.
@user1271772 Just gonna respond to your most recent comment here: We should probably try to prioritize the quality of the post, and the potential improvements suggested edits provide, over whether or not you personally dislike the sock account that's proposing such edits. We actually have another room on this server that has one user that has somewhere in the ballpark of 5 bot accounts for use with chat.
I find that a bit over-the-top, but I wouldn't really take that into account when reviewing suggested edits from them.
7:08 PM
and image searching ...
@Mithical Actually it doesn't say "your input is no longer required". There's a big blue "reject" button, and no "approve" button. If you click nothing, then the edit stays, if you click reject, it gets reverted.
@Spevacus Well actually... we reduced that to 1 :)
So that's no longer an argument :P
@Tinkeringbell Oh. Well, can't say I'm unhappy about that outcome. :)
@Spevacus That sounds good for the most part, but I've had edits rejected all the time for being "too trivial" and until you pointed out that part about blind people, and people who have images turned off (I don't know of any, but the argument makes sense), and until @Rob pointed out the benefits of image searching (again I'm not sure how useful it actually is, but it logically makes sense), I thought it was just a trivial edit from someone experienced user trying to quickly earn a
lot of rep in a brand new account.
> ...your action is no longer required.
7:13 PM
@Mithical hmm... I don't remember seeing the first part
I try to remember to put a description in all the images I post. I realise a lot of people do not, but I don't think it's a major blunder. OTOH, when low rep people who can't inline images submit a post that has visible [Enter image description here] links, that does upset me.
Why is it a major blunder?
> Alt text, or an image description, is what shows up in place of an image when that image fails to load. It's also what a screen reader will read out when someone is using a screen reader to browse the site, as well as what search engines and feeds display. With that in mind, it's an important part of web accessibility to include good alt text.
I've personally spent hours adding alt text around the network.
Some (many) of the Suggested Edits looked trivial, until you switch Tabs when reviewing; revealing the previously hidden text, and some truly are minor. --- For 'image descriptions' I'm only rejecting on the basis that the description is lousy and worse than the default; because it makes descriptions needing improvement hard to find. --- If it's pretty good it goes to the next for approval.
@user1271772 We also do a fair bit of rejection for "no improvement" or "too minor of an improvement" on this site, but when it comes to the Meta folks, we are a bit more considerate about accessibility edits and keyword-searchability. This is a userbase that has a lot of folks who are system-sensitive in that aspect.
7:18 PM
@Mithical I accept that all of those things are true. I question how many people actually use a screen reader, and more so: even if people are using screen readers I think the actual image has to be seen in order to see what I was trying to show .. someone that's not able to see the image is going to find it very hard to understand what's going on in this case, whether or not there's an image description being read to them. Likewise if the image fails to load, I don't see the big deal (here)
But as I said earlier, the image description does not harm the post, so I don't mind it being there now!
I know at least one person who uses a screen reader on SE, and others who can't view images because imgur is blocked (either at, like, a school level or a national level).
@Mithical Interesting.
I hadn't thought of schools blocking imgur.
Does China block imgur?
As for that one person you know who uses a screen reader on SE, unfortunately I don't think the image descriptions here would help much for them to see what the images were trying to show, but I admit they won't harm either.
I think China does block SE images. I thought of mentioning that in my comment reply to you, but I couldn't find any posts on MSE about it through searching (probably because my search skills suck)
@user1271772 Possibly, I don't recall offhand. @M.A.R. is Imgur still blocked in Iran?
Oh by the way, socks are not supposed to be used to circumvent the abilities of the parent account right? I appreciate that making positive contributions to the site (however minor, such as adding image descriptions in this case, just my opinion) make a user worthy of gaining +2. However SE has limited the number of points you can get that way: once you can make edits without review, you no longer get the +2.
7:26 PM
@user1271772 True, but gaining reputation in that way no longer benefits the main user. Sure you're gaining rep, but you're not adding that reputation to your original user.
Whoever it is that's knowledgeable enough to be adding image descriptions like this, from an account made today with 0 rep in the network, ought to be gaining rep via writing good questions and answers I believe
Q: As a workaround to Imgur being blocked, is there a image hosting site which allows URL uploads and does not violate CC BY-SA 4.0 copyright?

Rebecca J. StonesImgur is blocked in China (and probably in some other countries as well as many workplaces and educational institutions). This is annoying for Chinese users and Chinese.SE in particular. Workaround: Copy the Imgur URL into another image hosting site and view a copy of the image there. However...

@M.A.R. I'll be dropping two people to the airport on 7 June so that one of them can get her surgery in Iran.
Wait time is too long in Canada. It would be free here, but the price in Iran is apparently not too bad and the benefit of getting it done right away was enough for her and her husband to decide to fly over there to get it.
7:28 PM
@user1271772 That still has no effect on their main account
And users can't magically transfer their rep from one account to another
(As a tangent to the alt text conversation, I submitted a suggested edit on the Workplace several days ago to add a description, and it's still pending.)
@Zoethe1337Princess I know I've seen people say that bounties between accounts owned by the same person are not allowed, but I've also seen a Meta post a long time ago where the highest accepted answer said "I don't see the problem with this, they are just transferring rep from one account to another".
There are bounties of course, but that doesn't allow a complete transfer, and that type of sock interaction isn't generally allowed. Socks are generally fine as long as they don't do stuff like upvote the main account (or otherwise participate in upvote/vote/flag/etc. rings), bypass bans, join in on a downvote campaign against a user, etc.
@user1271772 There was one this year with that exact wording, but that was a very different context
Yea unfortunately I don't have enough rep at Workplace.SE to help with that. I noticed a similar issue at CS, where an edit for a very obvious typo in the title of an HNQ with 1000+ views, was taking too long to get accepted. I posted this about it:
Q: We need more people actively using the edit queue

Nike DattaniHow is it that this Hot Network Question with 1000 views has survived so long with this typo in the title? I tried fixing it but can't make an edit until the edit queue on the question is cleared. A moderator (D.W.) has also pointed out in chat that this has been an issue for a while. Can we ple...

@Zoethe1337Princess I'm pretty sure what I'm talking about was from a lot longer ago. But do you remember the post you're talking about? I'd be curious to see it just out of curiosity.
I'll need to dig it up
7:34 PM
@Zoethe1337Princess If it takes too much time, don't worry about it. But if you think you remember where it might be, I'd be curious to see it!
Actually, yeah, this probably isn't the one you were thinking about. And it was in a comment: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/407758/…
Thanks for finding it so quickly!
Was easier to find than I expected ^^"
@Zoethe1337Princess I can see how that's similar. The one I remember said something like "I don't see the problem here, they're just transferring rep from one account to another"
It may have been on a site-specific Meta, rather than on MSE, which makes it harder to find.
@user1271772 Well it doesn't matter wherever that answer is, it's wrong. The "correct" way to transfer reputation from one account to another would be by having them merged.
7:49 PM
I personally think that a sock should have to earn rep by doing things that the parent account would have to do to earn rep, such as posting good questions/answers if the parent account has maxed out the amount of rep they can earn by making edits. But I'm not a fan of allowing socks in the first place (I think most of them across the network are used to support the parent account either by writing positive comments or upvoting, etc., and it's not always easy to detect these things,
even for mods who have more tools).
You can not award a bounty to your own post, so you're not allowed to use a sock to do so either and create the false impression that your posts are so awesome they deserve bounties.
Yea I'm not disagreeing with that, but I'm curious to track down the answer I saw a long time ago which said it was okay. I think it was on a site-specific Meta (Math.SE for some reason seems to tickle my memory the most here), but I'll post it here if I find it.
i'm fine with socks still being able to earn rep from suggesting edits. :shrug: preventing that would be... next to impossible to do without ugly sideffects
Heh, and moderating that... well we have more nefarious sock use to worry about :P
Like the ones that get stuck in the dryer? >:(
7:54 PM
Imagine having a working dryer
Well if you want to talk about nefarious sock use... think harder :P
@Tinkeringbell Like the socks that make socks get stuck in the dryer?
@KevinB Yea actually in many ways, edits might be the only fair way to earn rep for socks. If a brand-new account writes a question/answer, it gets to the review queue where if there's nothing wrong with the post, the reviewer has to say "No action needed" or has to vote (usually up, if it's a good post). So the sock can actually earn rep that wouldn't necessarily have been earned if the post was made by the parent account.
@user1271772 Can I know the post you're referring to here? trying to search for it, but I think my search skill isn't too good
I've seen questions enter HNQ because of that (lots of upvotes from the review queue, in a short amount of time).
7:56 PM
that's what skip is for
A: Why should I enter image description?

Journeyman GeekI think its not a matter of why - its also a matter of when and what. (and it makes it easier for some folks). Alt text serves a few purposes. It lets folks with disabilities know what an image is. And it lets you add information about an image that might not fit quite well in a post without bre...

Thanks Rob :)
A: How can I write good alt text?

CatijaFor me, adding alt text is really important. Historically I didn't understand why it was important but I've since learned better - people accessing the site using screen readers or otherwise text-only should have the best experience that we can offer them, so if you're editing someone's work that...

@NordTheLoftyWizard It was this one:
Q: Feed items in ticker feeds can get duplicated

user1271772For regular chat feeds, if a question has more than one tag for which a subscription has been made for a feed, the question still only gets one-boxed once. However for ticker feeds the question seems to get duplicated as in this example: Here's an example where the item was triplicated: For peo...

@user1271772 oh, gotcha
7:57 PM
I rejected an edit, but people explained the benefits of adding image descriptions.
after I rejected it
but wait, I never seen the "place your own image description" before?? not on SE or SO AFAIK...
i'd rather just not include images, than include alt text
OH, so you get the ability to do that when you include a inline image link or something like that? I see
that could explain why I never saw it before (although I did upload an image on emacs.SE if I recall but didn't see it afaik)
@user1271772 I see. I recall that happened to me once on Unix.SE but while I think rejecting it and then seeing it added/implemented still could be surprising, as long as you think it logical/helpful to the post, it should be fine imo
but then again, it's your post, so I'm probably not the best person to judge that
Aren't there screen readers that can say what's in the image based on machine learning? Much like the way Google Images knows what an image contains? I would hope so. I've helped those neural networks get trained to know which streets have traffic lights vs ones that don't, too many times!
i mean
8:03 PM
@user1271772 Machine Learning is, I'm afraid, not an exact science*
one existing doesn't really change the situation much
There's the ability to read text from images, but that doesn't always give an accurate image (pun not intended) of the image, at least if there's no text in it, or the image is an animated gif
I completely derped on a word there though. Now that's gonna annoy me xd
@Zoethe1337Princess Do you use a screen reader?
8:05 PM
@user1271772 you might have helped, and I don't doubt it, but Machine Learning is not always exact (but it still remain useful). If you take yourself in the place of someone who can't know if the description of some "algorithm" is exact or not, then you might know what I'm trying to say here :)
II just know it's a thing in general. No idea if any screen readers actually use it
@NordTheLoftyWizard I think it's good enough to tell you what's in an image, better than "Insert Image Description Here" which is probably what most images on SE network say
@user1271772 I can assure you; I may not have as good of an expertise as you do for training or handling Machine Learning, but I seen my fair share of false positive and false match in using one
AI can see and tell you what is in a very low resolution image, but it's easily fooled too:
but the fact remain: the sheer possibility of it being inexact can be "disturbing" to an individual who cannot judge for themselves if it's the right description or not
8:07 PM
A: Why do we need explainable AI?

Rob Why do we need explainable AI? ... why we need to know "how does its intelligence work?" Because anyone with access to the equipment, enough skill, and enough time, can force the system to make a decision that is unexpected. The owner of the equipment, or 3rd parties, relying on the decisi...

This has been around since at least 2013:
@Rob well yeah. technically speaking (I'm being extremely pedantic here) REAL AI doesn't exist, and most existing one are just statistics model...
That's the name of the site, you could bring that up on their meta.
@NordTheLoftyWizard Ok, but if we're gonna be really extremely pedantic, your brain is just a complex neural net that has trillions of axon connections that make chemical-reaction-speed responses to input stimulus, and don't actually have any intelligence either. It's just application of filter.
@user1271772 yes, but, while you can know when there a false positive/the match/result is inexact, someone incapable of doing that themselves (unless they guess or ask a third party) won't be able to do that
8:09 PM
@NordTheLoftyWizard I am still curious to see data on how many people actually use screenreaders to "view" images on SE.
The only reason you know what a horse looks like is because you've been trained on the subject matter already
Well well, @Starship entered the room.
@jcolebrand if that was true, then we'd already have AI comparable to human's, without false positive (which aren't the same as "human also make error too!")
We've been talking about your edits.
(right, sorry if I side tracked things, but I did said I was "extremely" pedantic in my last sentence)
8:11 PM
@NordTheLoftyWizard We don't use chemical based processors, we use electrical based ones, and they don't have trillions of connection points, they have millions.
@NordTheLoftyWizard Eh, no
@NordTheLoftyWizard Baseless claims lead to specious arguments is my point. Don't bring them up if you don't need to.
@Zoethe1337Princess you mean "no they already exist" or "no, that wouldn't happen either way"? just curious
Just because we know how the brain works in general doesn't mean we can, in software and/or hardware, replicate a brain
I dropped into the conversation cos I was changing tabs, I'm not really here for a point other than 'when you find yourself typing "extremely pedantic" you should just not try to make that point because it's going to derail the conversation to no useful end'
8:12 PM
"extremely pedantic" = "I'm a huge asshole" in every case that isn't about wordsmithery
just rollin up destroying conversations
That's what I do
You should see the avatar on my profile pic <---
@jcolebrand they aren't necessarily baseless as they are general claim. I didn't deny i was speaking generally, and that I didn't know as much as other about this field, but you can't deny there false positive that cannot be taken for account, especially based on the current topic at hand
@jcolebrand hey hey be nice to the user, "Don't bring them up if you don't need to" isn't so nice ... they did say they were being "extremely pedantic"
8:13 PM
@user1271772 cant_tell_if.gif
@jcolebrand I wasn't trying to be rude, and I believe I wasn't previously; if i was, I'm sorry for that.
I was flipping over to the stackexchange chat server and tabbed past this, curious why there was a horse AI recognition image, then see someone who is clearly young using the phrase "(I'm being extremely pedantic here)" and asking you learn from this experience for a moment. Don't try to be that pedantic, it'll get you a lot further in life. I had to learn the lesson myself too, but it would've been cooler if someone had mentioned it to me.
There is a time and a place for it, but the only reason to present a Devil's Advocate is because you want to ensure guilt of the tried party, not innocence.
@NordTheLoftyWizard Nice to see you're staying calm even after being told your claims were "baseless" and "Don't bring them up" and effectively being called a "huge [curseword]". I think what you were saying was okay.
"but jcolebrand nobody asked you" I know, I was being equally "pedantic", for a reason
The point of "we should definitely provide useful alt-text instead of relying on AI to generate it" is good tho, and I definitely applaud any desire to improve that
Anyway, thanks for all the input everyone! I've been here for far too long. Need to go and do some other things so I'll leave the room for now!
8:21 PM
@Zoethe1337Princess I agree
@jcolebrand I don't think being pedantic is bad, as long as one remain civil in doing so. I believe I was. I also don't think your mention of age have anything to do with this either. As you said There is a time and a place for it so I'll take that to heart. Have a good day.
@user1271772 I seen worse...
@Mithical i.stack.imgur works. i.imgur is blocked
I do know that I wish some people had said things to me more clearly when I was younger, so I do think age plays into it somewhere. I've been on the internet a long time, and I learned terrible habits on sites like slashdot where assholery was encouraged. Reddit has similar problems. If I can speak up _now_ I can try to make some tiny difference to influence our communities for the better.

Is disrupting an ongoing conversation the place to do it? Experience says "yes, actually, it is the exact place to do so." :shrug: I understand you and 1271772's point. Cheers!
There are definitely worse places to grow up than SE. (Speaking as someone who... grew up on SE.)
8:36 PM
@user1271772 I of course haven't had any experience with 1st-world medical centers but our doctors rock, it is pretty inexpensive (especially considering the ridiculous dollar to rial conversion rates) and unless it's some complicated first-of-its-kind sorta surgery they'll do a good job
That's understandable. In hindsight, I guess I didn't thought I was disrupting the flow of the ongoing convo, *but* looking back, I probably was (even if it wasn't the wanted intention). Again, age doesn't have anything to do here, but we'll agree to disagree on that specific point.

I agree about the comparison you made too, but you can't deny I was more civil than you made it sound...
As a guy who also grew up on SE, it does rock.
@M.A.R. indeed. I have to agree this is more welcoming than other places
I don't know of any other place whose participants are this respectful towards each other and mindful of what their fingers type.
8:40 PM
@NordTheLoftyWizard I didn't say you weren't civil, I was attempting to point out that the need to draw a "extremely pedantic" viewpoint into an aside is usually perceived poorly. And that nobody told me that for decades.
You have absolutely been civil
Reddit is a . . . borrowing their own term, "circlejerk" group for every serious discussion. A constant competition for the best putdown of people you don't agree with.
My cat subs are increasing more and more and I'm unsubscribing from every other hate sub.
And back 15 years ago /. was a cesspool, which a lot of folks moved over to reddit into the technical subs about a dozen years ago
@jcolebrand I see. I guess if you say it like that, yeah, I agree this was inappropriate for the ongoing convo...although the point I was trying to make probably wasn't, but I get what you mean. Do know I don't usually do those "pedantic" rant, if that say anything.
Reddit is if everyone was like me in chat. And swearing was allowed.
The horror.
@NordTheLoftyWizard Sure, I follow. And a good pedantic point can be fun. For example: Do you know what the definition of factoid is without looking it up?
8:42 PM
Twitter is toxic BS, and you can't expect 140 characters to convey anything but simple guttural hate towards others.
@jcolebrand I'm afraid I don't.
@jcolebrand If my studies are to be believed, "fact" + "oid", meaning it's a fact that you get from plant extracts.
Most people use it incorrectly, but the pedantic version is much more fun when you compare to what people say. :D I'm always down for some good pednatry
@M.A.R. Is that a ... book?
So @NordTheLoftyWizard the fact that I'm just running around like a monkey with a gun in my hand has more to do with I'm frequently a huge asshole, and don't want others to be like me, than it has anything to do with you :D
And 20 years ago I was definitely a pedantic-crowd-person
@jcolebrand "forming adjectives and nouns denoting an animal belonging to a higher taxon with a name ending in -oidea"
There you go.
@M.A.R. You have broken my brain
Link me to something with more letters on the page?
8:46 PM
I bet -oidea is defined as "denoting an animal belonging to a lower taxon with a name ending in -oid"
@jcolebrand u haz gun. u no need bran
@user1271772 +1 thank you for insightfull answear.
GCC Docs:
> "GCC always tries to compile your program if possible; it never gratuitously rejects a program whose meaning is clear merely because (for instance) it fails to conform to a standard. In some cases, however, the C and C++ standards specify that certain extensions are forbidden, and a diagnostic must be issued by a conforming compiler.
> The -pedantic option tells GCC to issue warnings in such cases; -pedantic-errors says to make them errors instead. This does not mean that all non-ISO constructs get warnings or errors. ".
@jcolebrand I see.
9:10 PM
It's raining stars. Something I missed?
@rene burning beams, that's kinda impressive
Apparently, the apocalypse.
Pics or it didn't happen
If it did happen, there wouldn't be pictures kinda by definition.
@Mithical Nice try. It didn't happen and you're lying
*slowly edges towards exit*
9:21 PM
9:59 PM
@M.A.R. I think that's what they felt too. The price of the flight plus the cost of the surgery was more worth it than getting it done here for free but with a several-month wait.
10:32 PM
So SO is being bought out? What are the opinions on this so far?
@forestdistrustsStackExchange mixed bag I'm guessing? But I think most probably look forward to see how things go and such
can't speak for everyone though hmm
11:25 PM
@M.A.R. Why would you have signed up to a hate sub in the first place?
"Man, these stormfront guys are getting really racist. I should probably unsubscribe."
(I've never used Reddit myself, but I assume you have to manually sign up?)
11:44 PM
@forestdistrustsStackExchange with the new ownership - too early to tell
I've never heard of them. On the bright side, I think this might end the obsession with hyper growth and SE should have funding
on the less bright side - we'll need to see what kinda stewards they are
Best case: SO the company stops doing things contrary to community wishes. Worst case: SE shuts down and only SO, plus an auxiliary paid homework version of SO remains.
@user1271772 I have an alt account for work. I am careful not to let my two accounts interact - but other than that, yeah, anything a normal user does is fine. There's a security.se user who got 100k, got bored, started another account and hit 100k on that too :D
@forestdistrustsStackExchange I don't think a paid homework version of SO will work
worst case
BUT that essentially means a mass migration to the next best alternative
But what matters is whether or not they make more money than they lose.
You ever watched Fight Club?
> A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
A long time ago
I also read the book. My very proper methodist high school had an interesting selection of books
Thing is, they got it exactly right. It doesn't matter if SO "dies" in the public view, as long as they make more money from its death than it would make while it was alive.
11:53 PM
@forestdistrustsStackExchange Well - to be absolutely blunt, careers was generally the millstone around SE's neck
Unrelated, but I saw some ads for adopting a teenager. Seems like one of the benefits they are claiming (over adopting a young child as you should) is that a teenager can make food for you. Wtf.
> A teen may even be able to COOK their own meals, and yours too!
That smells vaguely like slavery
> A teen will be able to help you with your electronic device issues
lololol "adopt a teen for free tech support!"
11:56 PM
Unless your teen is a master scrounger....
uhhh I'd think an orphan might have less access to tech than someone who grew up in a middle class, semi stable family?
You'd be surprised, since most come from foster care.
A significant portion of them have smart phones and other such devices.
But unless you're some old fart who doesn't know what HDMI is and are still struggling to understand that remote controls are line-of-site, they're not likely to know more than you.
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