Tavern on the Meta

@rene I don't, someone wants to

Them mathematicians love the patternal shapes eye-roll

@Feeds Medical Sciences (Stack) Exchange?

Well duh, what else. Razzie pie Stack Exchange?

I like pie.

4:12 PM

What sort of friendship is it if you only want to consume pie?

Symbiotic perhaps

Feeds

First prize is a free ticket to the kissing booth.

rene

@M.A.R. it used to be linked to your email based on some hash. I guess they could visit gravatar,com (signup there) and then generate a different gravatar there. I assume that is how it works. Or do what most users do: upload an image yourself.

Gariman Singh

@M.A.R. Doing great. You may see this answer for changing the image.

And another robo upvoted: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/350858/…

It gets pretty annoying. Not that anyone says I didn't tell you later on :-P

May be it's even worth to escalate with the CM's. Fortunately we have some here (@Catija for instance) .

4:27 PM

@GarimanSingh deep angry yawn

@πάνταῥεῖ I dunno if it's really Robo. Some troll or the other trying to hang around and disagree with everyone?

These days I always see an upvote or two on a -30 post.

Regardless of how bad the idea is

Could also just be someone who doesn't like seeing people get downvoted to hell for an off topic question that's just going to get closed and deleted.

Not really worth it. The votes will eventually be irrelevant.

so what's the deal with y'all seeing the upvote/downvote ratio, is that a power to unlock or something?

1000 rep or stackapps.com/questions/557/…

Well, as mentioned before, I've even seen Spam upvoted earlier today. That's certainly not good.

Gariman Singh

@M.A.R. isn't the portion of "How do I change my profile picture, or avatar? For Gravatar" not useful?

4:38 PM

rep is so weird, that fact that you have to get it to unlock basic functionality on this site just makes me want to spam generic questions that are just slightly altered versions of old questions, just so i can actually use this site on the level of everyone else

well, it depends on what you want to do with the rep/privilege...

good if you use it to help curation, otherwise it's meaningless

@Hatman This would be pretty quickly detected, reported and downvoted as plagiarism.

yea that's why i said altered versions, no copy pasted

i just want to use the site and not feel like im getting a worse experience than power users

I get a free pedicure on Mondays

@Hatman Those are called duplicates, and will probably be closed + downvoted for lack of research effort.

4:42 PM

@Hatman It is a bit weird that domain knowledge and site knowledge are conflated.

@Hatman You can just put in honest efforts and earn reputation in turn.

@Hatman You can ask, answer and comment. Anything after that is either trivial or moderation-related

@M.A.R. only on Mondays? Woah. I didn't know mod life was that much better but I get one on Thursdays too :P

IMO, everything should work a bit more like flags (where you get more flags available as your flags are marked helpful).

@Tinkeringbell Now I'm gonna answer every unpopular FR

4:43 PM

if this site gives me a lesser experience i see no motivation to give the site my full effort

@Hatman Why do you feel your experience is inferior?

I'd kinda get that if you couldn't be able to comment, but you can.

@Hatman Not even unlocking privileges?

Heck, the downvote threshold was decreased to 100.

Only on MSE, no?

wut? oh, on Meta SE...

4:45 PM

@Hatman everyone had to unlock those privileges, so what you're actually saying is that you feel entitled to not have to do that?

because when i make a reply and some user with 60k points comes and starts saying of you're answer sucks because it got this many downvotes, i feel like im conversing at a significant disadvantage

@Mithical Yeah, are they referring to anywhere else?

@Hatman that's when you flag, as I can't imagine a mod leaving comments saying answers suck

like what else am i not seeing?

@Hatman Yes you are. They're trusted as they have proven a valuable asset to the site by putting dozens of hours of effort into the site.

4:46 PM

i had no idea anyone even saw that level of detail

@Hatman The behavior you describe should be flagged as rude or unfriendly/unkind. I find it hard to believe that a 60k user would tell you that your answer sucks because it got downvoted. Instead, they might explain why your answer's content needs improved/is incorrect, and that is why it has downvotes.

If you feel like this is a race and you've been left far behind, you're looking at all of this wrongly. It should be "I just found out this amazing thing and I wanna share it as it would help save hours of effort by the future readers googling and chasing their own tail"

their comments were all deleted by mods later, it just makes me feel like im talking to people in this site with one hand tied behind my back

Overall, I disagree with the premise that your ability to use the site is limited by your reputation. As a reward for beneficial content, the site grants you increased access to moderation privileges that enable you to give back to the site in the form of moderation. Most privileges (ability to comment, flag, up- and down-vote) are all granted below 200 rep, which is just a few answer upvotes/accepts away from a brand new user's starting point.

Think of it as leveling up in a video game...

4:49 PM

@Hatman So there were unconstructive comments, and they were moderated? What is the issue?

@Hatman you don't have to talk. If people say your answer sucks, flag it as unfriendly and don't engage.

You can flag with both hands.

People who tell you your answer sucks without explaining why don't deserve to be replied to :)

No I can't, I'm having dinner

Wasn't Hatman SOBotics's bot?

@Spevacus your answer is a vacuum

@M.A.R. Your answer is a black hole.

:squint:

4:50 PM

Not even light escapes

@M.A.R. clean answer is clean...

What did I do wrong to give an impression of being a princess?!

Black's cool. I can live with that

It's a... yellow hole, then? >:O

Tink gives me the opposite impression, TBH

4:51 PM

Black is nice, unless you're crocheting

A rockstar would be closer

@M.A.R. see, I can talk with you! ;)

tink is the dragon

A crocheting rockstar

A rockstar? I think I'm too low on both sex and drugs to qualify for that....

4:52 PM

ricocheting crochet!?

I'll take dragon!

@Sha is more princessy if he didn't have all the dirty jokes

@M.A.R. not sure what that means

@MetaAndrewT. Bless you

@Hatman Not much

well that's cryptic, lol

4:54 PM

@Hatman The path to the wisdom is through the jungle of doubt

Mark Twain

SmokeDetector

@M.A.R. ...

Knowledge is power, France is Bacon

@Hatman iunderstoodthatreference.gif

@SmokeDetector Speak for yourself! Do not let that scheming @Mith use you like a puppet!

I have no idea what you're talking about...

4:55 PM

Cool villains admit to treachery, Mith

It's like they're over all the petty moralizing squabbles

There are 16 people with access to the account...

And one who I'm often snarky to

Maybe two, but Art is mostly an apparition

You're snarky to everyone.

And a British one too. He might make noises with his mouth at night instead of doing poltergeist things like turn on the oven or something

@Mithical Like who for example

4:58 PM

I'm merely presenting the honorable truth

>cool people

>MAR

Pick one ;)

You just made it to my list pal

Glad to be marked down somewhere ;D

I give my opponents a warning beforehand like the chivalrous champion that I am

Or maybe a stupid villain

But I prefer the former

looks down

notices gauntlet

Did you drop this?

5:00 PM

@M.A.R. you monologue like one, at times

Haha you're pwned

That thing was Chinese, it blew itself up mostly

@Tinkeringbell Monologues have the advantage of being read over and over before someone interrupts with a chirp or a pop

bark

@M.A.R. you wish! If it's yours, I just skip to the last sentence and reply ;)

💔

🚽

5:10 PM

You just caused mild ischemia of the myocardium

@user400654 Why do you wanna flush my heart down the toilet

The most pretentious way to say... You made his lil' heart stop ;)

It's not absolutely useless

Aww. I'm sure the doctor can fix that. Maybe you even can yourself!

Y'all are making me go study

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. 🩹

5:12 PM

Wasn't that what you wanted?

in The Awkward Silence on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 10 hours ago, by M.A.R.

Halp

Q: Hide the names of the people who voted to close a question

-10

I've come to question the need for listing the usernames of those who voted to close a question once it has been closed. When I've been serial downvoted, 99% of the time it has been due to someone getting bent out of shape about their precious question being closed. I've tried in the past to ...

it's broken

So, this has a negative score but I feel like... things are somewhat different now? The post history is visible to everyone easily. We're in the process of doing this - essentially, what Taryn suggested... if you have the close vote privilege, you can see the names. Any thoughts?

My only issue with the recent banners (not having thoroughly used the sites to find out further) is they've become smaller and more easily ignored

:shrug:, was never an issue for me

5:16 PM

The specific close reason should be visible to everyone, so that they can avoid the same mistake with their own questions

@Catija The names are already somewhat hidden (in the rev history or timeline) when you don't have CV privileges, but we are going in the direction of hiding closed posts to all but close vote priv. wielders and the post author... This might not be a bad idea.

The edit button is ... can we get some data on how often people actually use it, and how often that leads to reopening?

@Spevacus The OP can see the names, always. Which has led to the OP lashing out at the voters.

occasionally someone will @ me for dupe closing their superdupe because it wasn't copy paste dupe, but, meh,

@Catija Ah, I had forgotten that the OP gets to see them because they have the expanded post notice.

5:17 PM

it gets me to take a second look

@JohnDvorak With minor edits still dooming many questions, not a really useful metric perhaps

Doomening? Endoomening?

@Catija how about only showing if it's closed by one mod/dupe-hammerer since they are pingable in comment?

dooming is correct

... grammatically, I mean

@MetaAndrewT. Most people aren't even aware that's possible.

I don't even...

5:19 PM

Well it's true

They can't tell a 3k rep from a 300k rep with a badge

Another element: When a new user sees their question is closed by multiple people, it feels like they're getting ganged up on by big and powerful moderators, when in reality it's just a few other users like themselves. When it's just one user, they feel a bit... sniped, almost?

With the question closure updates forthcoming... Yeah, this request doesn't seem like such a bad one anymore.

@Catija In that people are more 'responsible' for a binding vote, maybe we should. Or maybe we shouldn't because it'd seem even more dictatorial

Yeah, I worry that it'd be exacerbated for single-vote closures.

What about hiding it behind view close votes?

@M.A.R. No. Most people aren't aware that you can ping someone if they were the only close voter on the post.

5:21 PM

Yeah it'd be exasperated

i wasn't aware of that

heh

@Catija maybe it's time to allow to opt out of one's votes being binding?

i thought you could ping anyone who participated in the closure

Nope.

250 is a lower gate, and you get to cast your own reopen vote if it's your own question, so you do have an active interest in reopening.

At 250, you should have a mild understanding of the site, I would think.

5:22 PM

Mods have been asking for it for a time now, and many golders don't even know they have the power.

But knowing who closed your question is... not useful since you can't actually ping them.

^ this, ninja'd

I thought you could?

@Spevacus Not at 250, maybe 750 people start looking around, pushing buttons

@M.A.R. Maybe I'm different, I ran out of buttons to push early on ;)

5:23 PM

@JohnDvorak You can only ping someone who unilaterally closes a question.

@Catija It was perhaps initially a showcase of the democracy of the process, but it was taken wrongly anyway

Hmm... Debating dropping an answer on that request now.

does having someone to focus your... anger/criticism/... whatever on help anything from the pov of the asker?

I wouldn't think so.

@Spevacus well that's the boring kind of different because I can't use it to discriminate against you in various social situations

5:24 PM

@M.A.R. Damnit, I was looking forward to cancelling you ;)

since the Timeline icon is now public, I can support hiding names on the post... erm, nvm, it's already shown on the revision history

I have no grounds to do so now :(

As a question, @Cat, would you be hiding it from the timeline and revision history as well?

Or are you just tossing the idea around of hiding CVers in the post notice

Only the post notice... and it's pretty much already built.

i think in a certain sense it does... it pretty quickly shows that the closure was a group effort by putting real usernames on the votes. but... i don't know that missing it would be a problem

@Spevacus You fast learner! Button pusher. Idiosyncratic prodigy!

5:26 PM

Hiding it in the post notice is totally fine, I think.

@MetaAndrewT. If the post hasn't ever been edited, the revisions are hard to get to.

Sounds like a really okay change. I mean, people have always been asking for it in frustration, but there's no reason it's less good when you're not frustrated

I for one would enjoy being rensponsibility-proof for disputed closures :D

@Catija ah yeah, I forgot about that, but Timeline is still there

@MetaAndrewT. Maybe they'll notice that and in the process find out they can edit the darn thing.

5:28 PM

I wouldn't, however, enjoy being unable to call out others for closure decisions I find disagreeable :D

@JohnDvorak It never used to display when people voted to close as a nonsensical reason if it wasn't the majority of votes, so I think this is pretty okay anyway

if it's still in the revision history, you'd still be able to do that

Yeah

For one, I prefer cleaner display on the post

Any possibility of implementing anonymous personas linked to roles rather than accounts, as in "@closer care to explain? -- OP" - "as the close reason says, we don't do others' homework. -- closer"

5:30 PM

I want a red blinking close banner. Other than that, put whatever you want in it

Aww... no marquee?

@JohnDvorak That'd feel really hostile

@M.A.R. Stylish / Greasemonkey :D

For the OP, it'd be a venue to get hostile

@M.A.R. but it would prevent revenge votes

I got -4 rep today myself, and I don't even know what for

5:32 PM

The closer would still have to do with their share of beautiful words in different languages 101 everyday

closed by Closer♦

(I kinda welcome them, because it means what I'm doing has an effect)

Or it wouldn't ping 'em and be useless

@JohnDvorak You kinda welcome them.

@MetaAndrewT. I think that's a German name

such votes usually make me want to find the post/user and interact with them

reopened by Farther♦

5:34 PM

... and everyone else would welcome not getting them, hence @closer persona

clearly, they're wrong, so i need to tell them that

@M.A.R. not too germane...

to be fair, there's only one Father

... and he's always right

There can only be one mother, who the father is isn't always known.

5:39 PM

Mother is a group account

:)

@JohnDvorak is this Heimdall

@Mithical Reading up on Heimdall; they're ... surprisingly close to Jesus, actually.

No transfiguration though, unless getting reborn counts, or the ascension to Heaven

@JohnDvorak All-seeing, all-hearing?

Not either, but he fullfilled quite a few prophecies.

6:00 PM

Actually... all-seeing does match. Jesus doesn't see the future, but being in Heaven, he kept a good eye on a good chunk of the Mediterranean, and now there's stuff across the whole Earth to watch.

Probably turned it off as it was getting too annoying right around 2016

What are you referring to; US politics?

Hmph, and it was the year when IS started getting on international TV

Humans wanted a chance to show that they can live without God's help. This is the result.

Nine Mothers of Heimdallr

@JohnDvorak Perhaps this is what Mith meant, more than one mother:

In Norse mythology, the Nine Mothers of Heimdallr are nine sisters who gave birth to the god Heimdallr. The Nine Mothers of Heimdallr are attested in the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson; in the poetry of skalds; and possibly also in a poem in the Poetic Edda, a book of poetry compiled in the 13th century from earlier traditional material. Scholars have debated what being "born of nine mothers" implies and have sought to connect the notion to other European folk motifs. Scholars have theorized that Heimdallr's Nine Mothers may be identical to the Nine Daughters of Ægir...

6:13 PM

Who came up with that idea

The Norse?

OK... in that respect, Heimdallr does not match up with Jesus either.

@Rob that is indeed what my original message was referencing

@Rob Yeah but which one. Birger or Bjorne?

Maybe Erik

Yeah sounds like what Erik would say. That weirdo.

Heimdall is based on Heindallr: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimdall_(comics)

6:18 PM

Is that a horned helmet I see?

@Mithical It took some Google-Fu to derive that ...

Hmm, Wikipedia is not loading for me

Are you blocking their "Beg Banner"?

doubt it

especially since turning on a VPN allowed me to load it

could be one of their servers is borked

A: Which questions are considered toward the percentage of questions answered for a site?

I understand that closed questions don't count toward the "percent answered". What about questions that are "on hold" ?

3

Take Expatriates.SE. The site you link says 96% of questions are answered. There are 379 non-closed questions. There are 357 answered questions. 357/379 = 94.2% If we remove the switch for closed, we get 423 questions and 384 answered questions for a percentage of 90.8% If we only look at acc...

It doesn't say anything about questions that are "on hold"

6:26 PM

on hold is just a display name for closed

anyway, on-hold is already gone...

@MetaAndrewT. Is it? Since when?

@user1271772 It doesn't appear to be considered, it has to actually be deleted to be removed from the equation. Sources: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/300667/… meta.stackexchange.com/questions/86783/… meta.stackexchange.com/a/289684/282094 - that's how they did it in the old days (which is when your example is from);

today it could be different.

@Rob You are correct that every meta post discussing the formula, does not contain the word "hold", but John Dvorak said that "on hold" is a sub-set of closed, meaning that it is indeed covered by the formula, because "closed" is part of the formula.

@user1271772 since the new post notice :/ meta.stackexchange.com/a/350465/241919

6:36 PM

Difficult to research without the related links, but the linked to in the right column is helpful in some of those examples.

Hold isn't "closed" until the delay passes; today it's instant, and it can be manually reopened or edited to enter the reopen queue.

@MetaAndrewT. 7 months ago it seems, not a good decision in my opinion.

I concur, but alas...

"Research showed that it had no effect" ....maybe that's true based on some numbers, but personal experience suggested that it made a rather big difference on people's UX (user experience)

At least for my own questions, I liked it much more when it said "on hold" rather than "closed" !

Closed shouldn't (ever?) be included because it could be closed as a dupe (with an expectation of having accrued no answers, or that any received 0 or negative votes), which would leave numerous unanswered questions being counted against the site. A Q written at the time doesn't shed much light: meta.stackexchange.com/q/184154/282094

Which leaves questions with several upvoted answers that are closed not being counted.

7:20 PM

@JohnDvorak it was bit more than that, like the difference between detention and arrest — one is open for debate and quick change, one is more final and permanent.

!!/amiprivileged

SmokeDetector

@Spevacus ✓ You are a privileged user.

@Rob so each of the nine gave birth to a different part of him? Or is he nine beings combined?

!!/amiprivileged

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizardWearingMask ✓ You are a privileged user.

Yay!

7:24 PM

high fives @Sha

nine tails @Spev

Hmm, I don't think I ever read the lavender letter; though, did read and sign the open letter. Clickity...

@M.A.R. mind you, princess can also be dirty.

Found it! amazon.com/Dirty-Princess-Royal-Secrets/dp/1943938407

@canon forgiven

I'm reading it now and hear the ominous, distant rumbling of compelled speech and distaste for "friendly discussions" thereof. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. Again. This seems familiar. I'm just going to slink back under my rock. :/

*rolls eyes*

Asking for basic respect for other people != compelled speech.

7:38 PM

call it whatever you want

i don't like it

Absolutely. Indeed, I'd say compelling any speech is counter to basic respect for a person.

*sigh*

that said, my upbringing was rooted in compelled speech anyway: yes, sir. yes, ma'am. please. thank you. etc

Requesting that a certain group of people not be a.) ignored when harm is being done b.) harmed in the first place isn't compelled speech. You are always welcome to hold your tongue. You are not always welcome to debate other people's identity.

to me it just seems a common debate tactic used to shut down an opponent being used on a much broader scale. make your opponent's position evil and disregard it as a valid argument. ez win when it gets put into the site policies, now we can just flag and not need to discuss it

7:42 PM

@ShadowWizardWearingMask I'm guessing it was like this: youtube.com/watch?v=y6_OspMZzEU and like that: youtube.com/watch?v=VbYWd6NXAXk

@user400654 Some things don't need to be a debate.

Shutting things down is sometimes the right thing to do.

y'all having a debate on pronouns?

Not every opinion needs to be granted the legitimacy of being "debated".

Liquid hot (possibly thermonuclear) take: Free speech cannot be free speech without some degree of moderation.

No.

7:44 PM

then what are you discussing in this public chatroom?

dearstackexchange.com/lavender

so you're debating pronouns

Not at all.

no, as doing that would lead to suspension

6 mins ago, by Mithical

*sigh*

7:46 PM

so.... you're debating the debate of pronouns?

sigh

When an RO is sighing, it might be best not to let the conversation lead down a fiery path.

2

what's an RO?

On a more positive note, I voted to close a question today and it was closed almost instantly.

Room Owner. :)

7:47 PM

3 vote closure is awesome.

@canon correlation doesn't imply causation :D

3 vote closure's pretty neato.

DavidPostill

@Hatman A person who will kick your from this room if you don't behave. Or suspend you.

92

A: A guide to moderating chat

What tools are available to room owners? Room owners are users that have some elevated permissions in a chat room. Typically, they will be the first line of defense when it comes to inappropriate content or behavior in a room. Users will look to the room owners to guide the room. The room owners...

@JohnDvorak Quentin's a heavy hitter in that tag. Maybe his vote just counts for more.

7:48 PM

Probably should've linked that myself. Thanks Mith

:)

8:10 PM

I was surprised to find that while I had signed the open letter I hadn't signed the lavendar letter. Then I reread it and remembered why: I'm against discrimination and compelled speech. While I absolutely support the LGBQT community in strides for equality and dignity, I don't believe compelled speech should be a weapon in that fight. So, I didn't know if I should sign, given those reservations, or whether my signature would even be welcome. It's hard to be an ally in an absolutist culture.

I know I'm doing it wrong... I'm just not sure how to both be supportive and have personal convictions.

In what way do you feel that your speech is being compelled within that letter?

rene

Don't make me go sigh as well.

rene's not as nice as Mithical ;)

Or... well... I'm actually not sure.

That's not true. Rene's nice.

Definitely more blurry.

That much is certain.

DavidPostill

8:15 PM

@canon Drop it please. It's not an appropriate discussion given that many people are still feeling upset and hurt by what happened. Picking at scabs doesn't do any good to parties on either side of that debate.