Tavern on the Meta

Alex

12:38 AM

Were there any posts about the new tag page design?

@Shadow9 You missed the opportunity last time I was there.

V2Blast

1:48 AM

!!/tea

SmokeDetector

@V2Blast brews a cup of mint tea for @V2Blast

V2Blast

@Alex New design? Or the design for a "new tag page"? I'm not sure I've noticed any changes... Or maybe I've just missed it

Alex

@V2Blast Compare this screenshot from a couple of weeks ago:

And current:

Now the tags and their stats are enclosed in boxes.

V2Blast

2:25 AM

Ah, nice

I rarely visit the general tags page

is that on the same page? or on different sites (given the different colors), and/or a mainsite vs. meta?

Alex

2:36 AM

@V2Blast The first ine is from Mi Yodeya because that’s where I had an available screenshot from. The second one is from Meta here, but it’s the same on other sites as well.

They are also not exactly the same page, as one is sorted by tag popularity and one by tag newness.

But that only affects minor details (such as which stats are displayed), but not the overall layout.

V2Blast

ah okay, was just checking

curious

2:52 AM

@user1306322 I had started building a LED cube that could be animated, looked like a fun project...my soldering skills are not quite there though. I need to get back to it

Rob

@user1306322 The portmanteau isn't buckboard so it must be wheatbread.

Rob

3:25 AM

Build a Theremin, like Jean Michel Jarre uses.

curious

Nice!

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

6:02 AM

@JNat Cross-site spammers: stackexchange.com/users/15349504/norhasiah-ani stackexchange.com/users/15296009/masum-rabbani

@JourneymanGeek Spam accounts: meta.stackexchange.com/users/477565/norhasiah-ani meta.stackexchange.com/users/475034/pnisaperx meta.stackexchange.com/users/474027/user474027 meta.stackexchange.com/users/471024/atlas-equipments

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog nuked 3 of 4

Not really sure if I want to nuke the selfie queen

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Oh, wait...it's the same cross-site spammer from earlier. Sorry, that must have been clipboard error.

@JourneymanGeek I meant this one: meta.stackexchange.com/users/417074/pain-pills

rene

8:13 AM

→ 18 messages moved to Chimney

Magisch

35

A: Writing desperately needs moderators!

I’m sorry. The long-standing repercussions of the fall are something we’re still recovering from. The moderator situation on Writing and a handful of other sites is something we need to address - and we are but we’re not talking about it publicly so I can understand why y’all feel ignored. Whil...

tl;dr elections were supposed to be on hold until the new moderator agreement was ratified and posted publicly. This will probably take until at least march, so it won't be ready in time. First election of 2020 will be on the workplace, supposedly starting nominations today

Mithical

Hmm, so I should hurry up on earning 150 rep there...

rene

@Magisch will you run?

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch also means, despite the... sudden-ness, that this isn't being held up by legal or marketing... 🤔

Magisch

@rene not sure

I've put off deciding

not even sure what my chances would be

Mithical

8:25 AM

By the way, @JourneymanGeek, would you be willing to help assuage some of my curiosity? I'm really curious to know what happens if you try to visit user #3 on the Mod Team :D

rene

the server will explode

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek eh. I'm 99% sure the new mod agreement will be a contract style NDA or some such

Journeyman Geek

404

Magisch

can't imagine they'll let people continue to be mods without signing one

Mithical

cool, thanks

Journeyman Geek

8:26 AM

@Magisch Well - I'll certainly read through it

rene

the countdown started ... 403 ... 402 ....

Journeyman Geek

and I need to conciously object I will

however that is spelled

Magisch

y'all will probably get to see it before everyone else does

Shadow9

@Mithical @It's snowy at your place? Any chance for a pic if so? ;)

I saw snow really few times IRL.... :/

Mithical

@Magisch If so, would that be a legal contract between SO and the mods? I can't imagine that going over very well.

Journeyman Geek

8:27 AM

@Mithical @Magisch we don't really have any details as of yet

Mithical

@Shadow9 It hit freezing overnight, but no actual sticky snowfall

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek I know

Shadow9

@rene should begin at 418

Journeyman Geek

So no real point in speculating

Shadow9

@Mithical doesn't have to be sticky

Falling snow is also good :P

Magisch

8:28 AM

but my best guess is that they'll make you all sign a formal nda, maybe if legal or marketing is really bold it'll also be a non disparagement clause or a indemnification clause

rene

@Shadow9 !!/coffee

Magisch

but lets not assume the worst

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I can't agree to a non disparagement clause

Mithical

@Shadow9 I'm a bit too low down for that at the moment, if it's snowing it's usually snowing twenty minutes up the road, not actually by me

Journeyman Geek

I want to act in the best interests of my communities, and that includes in some cases, calling a spade a spade.

Magisch

8:29 AM

back when I was at minecraftforums they had all mods sign all 3 clauses, but it's not super common.

rene

@Magisch if that is in there I would certainly ask what the monthly payment will be ....

sounds too much like work

Magisch

it's definitely a valid concern

it makes sense they'd hold back elections when there's a non zero chance that newly elected mods would run for the hills when the new agreement drops

Shadow9

@rene isn't it...

!!/teapot

SmokeDetector

@Shadow9 No such command 'teapot'.

Shadow9

:(

@Mithical too low down? What does it mean?

Mithical

8:35 AM

at too low an elevation for the snow to form

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch on the other hand, well I don't think that massive moderator attrition was something that was planned for. (Even if that sometimes feels... dubious)

Also... uhm

interesting part is, there's nothing there that says I'm bound to a new version :D

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek yeah but, put yourself into the shoes of the community team right now

Shadow9

@Magisch only 6 shoes

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch Well, those are not great shoes to be in

Magisch

they know they might have to drop a steamer on their mods soon with a new mod agreement everyone needs to agree to as a precondition to continuing, would you rather elect new people before or after that?

Journeyman Geek

8:37 AM

On the other hand, they're the one part of the community I trust to at least want to act in our best interests all the time

Magisch

in a lot of elections, people don't run if they see other more qualified candidates run. So you'd lose a lot of potential mods that way

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch that's not always a terrible thing.

If more qualified candidates run

Magisch

no I mean

if 4 well qualified candidates run, a 5th might not because they don't see the need. If all 4 of those object to the new mod agreement, there's no candidates left. but if the 4 knew beforehand and wouldn't run, a 5th might run because nobody else does.

Journeyman Geek

true

but once again, we don't really know

But clearly, the damage from lack of moderation is greater than the damage of the hypothetical clauses of a moderator agreement we have not seen yet

Magisch

true

rene

8:49 AM

Wait. Are you saying we shouldn't speculate about the doom that is upon us?

That is no fun.

Journeyman Geek

I don't get paid to have fun

:D

Mithical

You don't get paid.

Journeyman Geek

EXACTLY

Also, if I wanted to panic needlessly?

Coronavirus :D

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek be like the small office dog here

deathly afraid of gusts of wind

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch we've the most cases outside china

Magisch

8:52 AM

we have a huge storm weather system in right now, a lot of wind. And the small office dog got blown like 10 feet by a gust

Journeyman Geek

I live near one hotspot, work near another...

@Magisch 0_0

Magisch

now he's afraid of wind

rene

@Magisch we've had it here last evening. Near the coast it went pretty rough.

Magisch

his owner (a coworker in the processing department) told that story this morning as an explaination for why he's suddenly terrified of wind noises

apparently he got swept by a gust yesterday evening and was quite scared by it

rene

poor doggie

Just bring the dog to Scheveningen beach with the next storm. He'll be fine with wind afterwards ....

Shadow9

9:00 AM

@Alex huh? When? There wasn't really any opportunity before... unless you mean "private" meetup without SE staff? That can be fun too.

This gives me idea...

Gimby

9:13 AM

@rene Of course you won't know where exactly he landed

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I'm pretty sure Ash is afraid of nothing by now, other than heights.

user1306322

9:26 AM

@rene ShEnAnIgAn beach!?!?

I'd watch that youtube clip

does this give anyone else 404? chromedevtools.github.io/devtools-protocol/tot/Page/…

Gimby

@user1306322 ... no?

user1306322

it looks like anchor links to this site give 404 on Firefox but work fine in Chrome

Gimby

ah firefox, I don't have that installed

user1306322

yea that's what I figured :D

9% represent!

Gimby

I guess it sort of makes sense that chrome dev tools are reported as not available for another browser :)

user1306322

9:30 AM

yea but it's on github tho

doesn't microsoft own that

Gimby

works in safari too though, so it would be oddly targeted.

user1306322

but I guess since Edge is now chrome-based that kinda makes sense

yea I'm gonna have to get chrome to navigate that documentation site :s

Shadow9

Main article title in a leading newspaper in Israel: "Jerusalem is colder than Sweden". :D

user1306322

9:47 AM

in other news, fish can not only fart, but cause international military tensions by doing it

Gimby

10:00 AM

ha ha :) Fish farts are funny.

Shadow9

My fish don't fart

Rob

@Magisch The fine print: "... we’ve been hesitant to hold new elections while waiting for the update out of concern that some moderators, including just-elected ones, would step down rather than agreeing to the new terms.". --- So they're only selecting specific people whom meet special requirements. If you have to "can't even write that here", well what is there to say.

Magisch

@Rob They're holding elections

they can't select who is who

Rob

The rules do.

Magisch

@Rob How do you mean? The election they're launching today is as open as any other

everyone with more then 300 rep on TWP can nominate

Rob

10:14 AM

You've essentially said the same thing here:

2 hours ago, by Magisch

it makes sense they'd hold back elections when there's a non zero chance that newly elected mods would run for the hills when the new agreement drops

Magisch

yeah, thats what they originally wanted, but it didn't end up working out

so they decided against it

Rob

Even your top posts on TWP echo an understanding of the concept, why the how do you mean:

Magisch

22.2k 15 65 95

ArtOfCode

@Rob They wanted to hold back on elections. Now they've decided they can't hold back any longer, so they're holding a normal, unmodified election. They're not selecting specific people at all.

Magisch

The elections coming up right now are completly 100% normal elections

JAD

nothing to see here

move along

Magisch

10:21 AM

the reason for that is that the new mod agreement takes more time to finalize, and they don't predict it'll be ready until march. The community team seems to have made a conscious choice that the risk of having people resign after being elected is for now lower then the risk of not having enough moderators in that timespan

probably also because they want to give themselves more time to do the updated mod agreement right, and having the looming spectre of holding back elections until then is probably not helping

I said earlier I understand the train of thought that went into holding back elections until now, it's a legitimate argument, but it doesn't seem to be what they've chosen to do now, which I also understand.

they're caught between a rock and a hard place there

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I'm also at 20k now, if you want you can ping me also for these

Mithical

boom

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Magisch Good to know. I do comparatively fewer pings than the others, so might want to let them know too.

rene

10:36 AM

I've noticed ...

Journeyman Geek

10:52 AM

@Rob or more that some of those terms might not be acceptable, and its going to take time to hammer out a compromise.

cause I suspect mods quitting isn't something that's going to have good optics past a point + I don't think it makes for a healthy community

ArtOfCode

@Sha @Son @rene @Bart @Glo likewise, you can ping me on 20k delv-pls

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

You got it

Mithical

likewise

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

status-added-too

rene

I didn't know @-ping in comments in a team would give you an inbox item.

Shadow9

11:07 AM

@rene inbox is shared? Or does Teams got its own inbox?

@ArtOfCode cheers, that would make the list pretty long... :)

Mithical

@rene Special Channels feature

Rob

@JourneymanGeek It's not a good idea to lead with a bunch of conditions that no one will accept and then have to drop them all and come begging. It may end up that they'll have to hire and pay big bucks, or do without. Take for example Wal-Mart, they can't hire Cashiers; so they've replaced half the checkout lanes with self-checkout. --- SE will end up lowering the thresholds again:

meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/391832/… webapps.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/4687/…

Shadow9

@Rob Cashiers is bad example, they're being replaced all over, regardless of their quality or what they do - they're simply not needed anymore, as whole, with the self-checkout becoming simple and cheap. Mods can't be replaced with AI just yet, maybe in 6-8 years.

Rob

Lower thresholds isn't AI

🚀⚗️

Shadow9

!!/AI

SmokeDetector

11:18 AM

@Shadow9 No such command 'ai'.

Shadow9

:(

Rob

With "self checkout being so cheap" they can have "self shelf stocking" too. Just bring the stuff out from the back with a forklift, dump the pallet on the floor, leave a crowbar on top of the crate ... --- Just like CostCo.

Shadow9

And? They still need security, janitors, etc.

rene

@Mithical kewl!

Journeyman Geek

@Rob actually not a bad tactic 😁

Rob

11:30 AM

The first was: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piggly_Wiggly and the latest scans you inside and out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Go

Magisch

@Rob I suspect they'll want to gauge the mod community reaction thoroughly before proceeding there

the last thing they're probably looking for right now is another huge wave of resignations

might also be why the draft takes longer then expected to get to mods

Rob

@Shadow9 Security and Janitors aren't "employees", they're 3rd party, contracted. Bottom line is that "employees" don't get the money. The Janitorial Firm is whomever will work for the least and security only detains the elderly, Workplace Insurance won't let them confront someone whom may be armed.

Martin

I see that Trashcan is often used for messages from this room - and it was inactive for 13 days, so it might get frozen. Perhaps some user who has access to that room might prevent it from freezing - if it's worth keeping.

That was fast. Thanks!

SE is evil

@Rob It's a bad sign that the changes they are considering to the mod agreement are likely to lead to mods to resign. I hope that SE is simply fearing that some people won't sign that they'd enforce the Code of Conduct including the pronoun issue. But if it is some clause beyond the CoC, that would indicate something ugly

user1306322

11:46 AM

maybe a bot could post in the trashcan every 13 days to keep the garbage hot

Magisch

@SEisevil Informed reading of the post says that at least something about adhering to and enforcing the CoC will be in there. I don't know beyond that (and Catija doesn't say - understandably) if they'll put anything else in, but my guess is there'll be at least a formal NDA contract in there to disincentivize leaking and maybe some other industry standard clauses for volunteers.

> I sincerely hope that the new mod agreement is something that all of the current and future mods will agree to - that it’s written in a way that recognizes what moderation means on this network and that it asks moderators to agree to a set of things that aren’t onerous and takes their volunteer status into account.

The passive language in that suggests they're in a tug-of-war with legal and management over this. It could be that they want a non disparagement clause or similarly odious language in there

SE is evil

@Magisch I really doubt the NDA stuff, it just doesn't provide enough benefit for the company compared to the damage it would cause

There was one leak, and if there are more and SE doesn't like that, they'll simply stop sharing stuff in advance with the moderators.

user1306322

I wonder if they'll make the text of mod agreement public or only available to mod-elects

Magisch

maybe the line of thinking was that, and the CMs intervened and argued to continue sharing stuff with mods in advance, and the compromise is making mods sign a NDA

Rob

@SEisevil The quote from a CM that I referenced makes it sound like they are adding stuff they know people won't like. -- Don't you want Mustard or Ketchup with your Coffee?

Mithical

11:50 AM

If I'm under 18, is an NDA even legally binding?

SE is evil

@user1306322 it always has been public

Mithical

@user1306322 It's currently public, I don't see why that'd change.

stackoverflow.com/legal/moderator-agreement

Magisch

@Mithical not a lawyer. but here, your parents would have to sign it

SE is evil

@Mithical you wouldn't be able to be a mod in that case, I assume

Magisch

they might say all mods need to be > 18 though

like they've done with the survey, working groups and any other involvement

user1306322

11:51 AM

have they previously verified 18+ age of mods?

Mithical

@Magisch In that case I should request my diamond back quickly, so that they have to forcibly remove me... and cause another stir...

</evil>

@user1306322 No.

Magisch

if legal is having a say in this it'll probably be 18+ only because it's not worth the money and time (to them) to design a process to get guardians to sign off

Mithical

I became a mod at 14.

Magisch

Thats just it isn't it. Technically speaking I'm not even sure if the current lack of a NDA complies with GDPR. If this was my company (where I advise on such matters) I would insist on a NDA before any personal data is handed over

Mithical

Such a clause would mean no more Undos in the future.

SE is evil

11:55 AM

@Magisch That probably doesn't require an NDA, but if mods count as external to SO, something more specific like an "Auftragsdatenverarbeitungvertrag"

Magisch

@SEisevil Yes, if you want to be precise. But not really also. An Auftragsverarbeitungsvertrag (Data processing agreement - dpa) is a business - to - business level agreement

SE is evil

If PII access is a big legal issue, they probably need to create two levels of mods, with most mods not having PII access

Magisch

for an individual <-> business level you'd be looking at a NDA

for instance we have the school research teams we work with sign a NDA, while our EDI processor has signed a DPA at my workplace

SE is evil

@Magisch I don't think an NDA would be sufficient if mods are seen as a separate entity. But you're also right that it's more B2B, and I don't think it would be feasible to make this kind of contract with volunteer mods. My strictest interpretation would essentially mean that mods can't have PII access at all

Magisch

going into pedantic prick mode (which is what I do to prep myself for audits) it would mean each mod would have to sign a DPA through an intermediary entity (e.g the mod itself wouldn't get PII, only a LLC the mod sets up or something) but that would be super inane and stupid. I don't actually have enough caselaw knowledge or legal expertise to make an informed argument either way

ArtOfCode

11:59 AM

@SEisevil Rhabarberbarbarabarbarbarenbartbarbierbierbarbärbel

4

SE is evil

The other thing is that SE would also have to require mods to provide proper identification. In many cases they don't necessarily know the real name of the mod

Magisch

true

given what they did to monica a lot of mods are probably not too keen on giving that

8

SE is evil

It doesn't make much sense to sign something with serious legal repercussions for this kind of volunteer thing.

Magisch

> but that would be super inane and stupid.

personally I'd probably sign a standard issue NDA covering PII in particular, but not a b2b level DPA with damages and level of service provisions (like auditing and request production).

Mithical

terdon

12:04 PM

@Magisch And the prize for the understatement of the year goes to...

I sure as hell wouldn't sign an NDA, since that would require me to enter a legal agreement with SE, sharing my real name with them. Not to mention that any company that requires its volunteers to sign NDAs (instead of ensuring these volunteers don't have access to sensitive information) isn't a company I want to volunteer for.

SE is evil

@Magisch I think anything that would create legal risk for yourself in any case except intentional misuse of PII (or maybe gross negligence as well) would be a bad idea to sign. SE doesn't even provide 2FA for accounts, you don't want to be liable in case your account is compromised, or your PC is and PII leaks that way

terdon

And, SE being who they have become, I refuse to give them legal weapons to use against me.

4

Magisch

@SEisevil pretty much

SE is evil

Intentional misuse of PII is criminal anyway, so it would likely be actionable under the current agreement as well

Magisch

the current agreement isn't even a real contract, iirc. But I'm not a lawyer so cant say either way

SE is evil

12:08 PM

@Magisch It's probably enough if I dump PII from my site and spam the users or try to sell the data. Not because of the agreement, but because I'm likely violating the law while doing these things

terdon

@SEisevil What could we sell though? It's not like we have access to passwords or credit cards or anything like that.

SE is evil

@terdon emails

Magisch

@SEisevil might be, I have actually no exposure to criminal PII laws

all I know is GDPR business level stuff

terdon

@SEisevil ah, point

SE is evil

It's probably still possible to dump most emails from a small site as a mod, I doubt they fixed that since I resigned

Rob

12:15 PM

Spamming could result in up to 20 years imprisonment and >$1M in fines under US law:

CAN-SPAM Act of 2003

The Controlling the Assault of Non-Solicited Pornography And Marketing (CAN-SPAM) Act of 2003, signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 16, 2003, established the United States' first national standards for the sending of commercial e-mail and requires the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to enforce its provisions. == History == The backronym CAN-SPAM derives from the bill's full name: Controlling the Assault of Non-Solicited Pornography And Marketing Act of 2003. It plays on the word "canning" (putting an end to) spam, as in the usual term for unsolicited email of this type. The bill...

Shadow9

And in the meanwhile, Israel developed anti-balloon laser weapon.

(No. Not a joke.)

Magisch

so a high energy laser pointer?

Gimby

That's a rather hi-tech weapon to combat a really low-tech weapon.

Shadow9

@Magisch probably, didn't check in depth. But it can't take down missiles, only balloons.

@Gimby yup. Low tech weapon with potential for big damage.

(Starting fires.)

Magisch

@Shadow9 maybe the budget had balooned and they wanted to wrap development of it up?

;)

Shadow9

12:24 PM

So far they burned lots of fields, and one time an empty kindergarden.

If it was full..... the whole world would have heard about the war that it would start.

So both sides are lucky, in a way. :/

BlueSoul

@terdon reminder - because reasons, mods can see your email and real name. But worry not: it is logged, so nothing to fear (sarcasm)

djsmiley2k TMW

@BlueSoul Now that looks like a GDPR issue

terdon

@BlueSoul hmm?

BlueSoul

@terdon se voluntary mods already have access to PII. They probably already have to sign some paper about it. So, if I understand your post correctly "requires its volunteers to sign NDAs instead of ensuring these volunteers don't have access to sensitive information" is already happening

terdon

@BlueSoul I know. I have been a mod on multiple sites for many years and still am on one, I know exactly what mods have access to :)

But they do not require me to sign ay NDA.

BlueSoul

12:39 PM

even worse.

SE is evil

@BlueSoul the only agreement involved is the moderator agreement: meta.stackexchange.com/legal/moderator-agreement

terdon

And, obviously, the vast majority of users who don't use their real name as a username also don't share their real name when creating an account.

@BlueSoul How so? Nobody requires anyone to share their real name.

Magisch

@terdon my real name for instance is not in my account

terdon

I should hope not!

BlueSoul

well... since I know what you folks will say next... let's start from the end, shall we?

Magisch

12:44 PM

yaakov knows my real name, then art, catija probably and shog

BlueSoul

linky link

> Personal data is any information relating to an individual, whether it relates to his or her private, professional or public life. It can be anything from a name, a photo, an email address, bank details, your posts on social networking websites, your medical information, or your computer's IP address.

terdon

@BlueSoul yes?

Magisch

personal data is only personal if you can couple it to an individual

terdon

Why is any of this relevant to requiring volunteers to enter legally binding contracts with a corporate entity?

(NDAs)

JAD

@Magisch exactly, that's why I share my e-mailaccount with multiple people. That was they can't know it was me

\s

Magisch

12:46 PM

I think @BlueSoul is arguing that mods shouldn't have any PII access according to gdpr

BlueSoul

@Magisch exactly.

terdon

Fine by me. I don't want PII.

Magisch

@JAD there's a regionally differing rule but in my area any information that can be suitably tied to 10 people or less is considered personal data

the number varies in different regions in germany

BlueSoul

or, to be fair, I am just arguing that based on GDPR definitions, mods already have access to PII.

terdon

All I'm saying is the way to do that is to make sure I don't have it, not to give it to me and then force me into a legal agreement with SE.

@BlueSoul Of course we do. Whoever said we didn't?

Granted, relatively unimportant PII, but PII regardless, yes.

BlueSoul

12:48 PM

@terdon yep, exactly what I mean. They should remove that instead of even thinking about a NDA contract.

terdon

@BlueSoul Which is precisely what I've been saying :)

And SEisevil.

43 mins ago, by terdon

I sure as hell wouldn't sign an NDA, since that would require me to enter a legal agreement with SE, sharing my real name with them. Not to mention that any company that requires its volunteers to sign NDAs (instead of ensuring these volunteers don't have access to sensitive information) isn't a company I want to volunteer for.

In any case, an NDA would be irrelevant here. The GDPR requires user consent, and user consent is given. It also requires that the user be informed who has access to their PII, which is something SE could indeed make clearer.

Magisch

there are legitimate use cases to have volunteers signing NDAs

when I was on the school budget committee in my school years I had to have my parents sign one on my behalf

terdon

However, there is no requirement for me to sign any sort of NDA in order to have access to PII. The GDPR just means that I may also be liable if I do anything inappropriate with that PII.

BlueSoul

@terdon yep, I read that as if you meant that SE isn't yet giving volunteers PII access

terdon

@BlueSoul Oh no, on the contrary, it is but it shouldn't. Or, well, that isn't entirely true.

We do get a bit more than strictly necessary, but not much. And some of what we do have access to can be very useful in identifying socks and fraud.

But yeah, we should have better methods for that based on abstractions of the data instead of having access to the data directly, even as limited access as we have.

BlueSoul

12:52 PM

@terdon which... to be fair... IMHO should be an activity best reserved to the employees...

Alex

@Shadow9 Why? Did Yaakov get hired recently?

Magisch

@BlueSoul there's entirely too much socking and fraud for employees to deal with alone

terdon

@BlueSoul Weeelll... why? I mean, I certainly trust SE employees less than community-elected moderators. And, on a practical level, that would never work. Finding socks is complex and time consuming, having employees do that for all sites of the network isn't really feasible.

Not unless you somehow manage to automate things that are very hard to automate (fuzzy human intuition is often involved).

SE is evil

@BlueSoul which employees? There aren't enough CMs left, and even with the old numbers doing all the vote fraud investigation by CMs would have been impossible

Magisch

@terdon eh

I got pretty far with it even as a user

but it is time consuming

terdon

12:54 PM

@Magisch Yes, some can be automated and yes I am thinking of your data.se query. But that, while very helpful, only scratches the surface.

Magisch

true

BlueSoul

@terdon for the simple reason that in case a) you are giving access to your email to someone that already has it from the moment you subscribed. Yep, we are talking about company and not specific person but that should suffice in that case. For volunteers instead you are giving access to my address to random, could disappear tomorrow people.

note, I don't mean that I fear the dog will send me spam but....

in the unfortunate event that a certain user manages to become mod thanks to lack of options....

considering he already managed to show his "quirks" with leaked addresses in the past....

terdon

@BlueSoul Sure, but that's why we have multiple emails, right? I mean, this is pretty standard every time you give your email somewhere for a new account, you are giving it to some rando online.

BlueSoul

63

Q: More than 15k bottles of Viagra from Kenya, asking 110+ people for money, seriously?

I received a strange mail from a well-known SE user with the following body two days ago: HALLO EVERYONE. I am writing to you from Kenya. I have recently come into contact with a great bunches of Viagras -- roughly 15,395.5 bottles worths! That's FIFTEEN THREE NINE FIVE and a half bottles. Th...

support spam email privacy

SE is evil

@BlueSoul I have deleted my account in two cases after specific mods won an election. And I have a few times told SE employees that they should just nuke my account in case Evan wins one, if they would actually give him the diamond (it was never clear to me whether SE would do that or not)

terdon

12:59 PM

But, anyway, you're preaching to the choir. I would far, far prefer to have tools that let me investigate fraud based on PII without actually showing me the PII. You could, for example, just convert the user's email to some random string and show me that.

BlueSoul

@terdon which is again "not giving out the PII in the first place"

terdon

Yes. Which, everyone agrees, is the best option.

BlueSoul

For what I care, they could even implement a "does user A have the same email address / IP / whatever as user B" feature.

but there is no need to disclose the email or other data in the first place.

user1306322

exact algorithms of those tools would have to be obscured from mods to prevent possibility of reverse-engineering them and figuring out the actual PII

who's got time for that

BlueSoul

@user1306322 the obscurity would just be the fact that you give out no data. You just answer a question without sharing the internal state

You don't need to be showed an "encoded" email.

You ask if User A has same email as User B

The system replies "yes" or "no". No other info is shared with you.

user1306322

1:03 PM

I mean potentially you could misuse the tools like this: create multiple accounts with emails known to you, use the tool to match these accounts with the target account's email, see what the tool says, if it's a very close match then you can figure out that target email

terdon

@BlueSoul You do, actually, since you will often not know userB. Showing an encoded email would be fine and helpful.

user1306322

puzzling would have a field day with these tools

BlueSoul

@user1306322 you don't tell "how close" it is. The answer is a boolean, yes or no.

Magisch

@BlueSoul but telling how close it is is super helpful for fraud investigations

especially for telling conflict of interests or affiliations

user1306322

@BlueSoul even so, you can test for exact matches to identify the users you are targeting

terdon

1:05 PM

@user1306322 Very often you don't actually find exact matches.

BlueSoul

same domain, no info. Similar username........

Magisch

Thats a lot of dev time you're proposing to be put to work on that

probably not realistic

user1306322

we can ask Yaakov :p

BlueSoul

yep, it would be so informative to know that the name is similar to "superM4rio74"

terdon

Teaching a machine that "mike_jones" "mikey" "jonesy" and "michael jones" are simlar is very hard to do but is trivial for a human.

user1306322

1:08 PM

@terdon this takes maybe a couple weeks :p

just hire people with appropriate experience

terdon

@user1306322 I very much doubt that.

Shadow9

@Alex no, Yaakov became... involved (?) only recently, after the Monica drama started and Meta was on fire.

user1306322

a dictionary of common names, conjugated forms, doesn't sound very hard

terdon

Especially if you need to work with different scripts (alphabets) and cultural norms. For instance, I might know that "Pucho Montaña" is the same name as "Jose Maria Mountain" but I couldn't explain that to a computer.

Mithical

@Shadow9 Slightly before.

71

A: Let's take a look at the interaction between staff and the "power users" of the network

I saw this post, and wanted to chime in. As I haven't officially introduced myself, my name is Yaakov Ellis, and I am a developer on the Community Dev team. Before that I was Team Lead for the Internal Dev team at Stack, and have been working here for nearly six years. As you can see from my user...

user1306322

1:09 PM

@terdon you couldn't :p

terdon

@user1306322 Extrapolate that to the hundreds of languages and cultures on SE...

BlueSoul

@user1306322 what we are willing to risk >>> probability that an ex mod will sue us > probability of actual GDPR issues ===> keep as is.

user1306322

sure, I'm just talking hypotheticals without regard of what's probably going to happen

to highlight the amount of effort it could possibly involve

SE is evil

I don't have high expectations for SE on this kind of privacy issues, especially after nothing happened with my complaint about the mass export of emails that is possible as a mod

terdon

You'd have to know things like "Μήτσος == Δημήτρης" or "James == Ιάκωβος" or "Francisco == Paco", you'd have to know that "michael@foo.com" is similar to "jordan@foo.com". These are really non trivial to do for machines.

user1306322

1:12 PM

I don't actually think they're gonna overengineer the tools like that

Shadow9

@Mithical oh, yeah. Well, now we know why no CM could step in.

(direct orders from up above)

BlueSoul

well, back to browsing the SE leaks I am. Ping if ye need me.

terdon

Just to give you an idea, @user1306322, here's how complicated even a seemingly trivial task of natural language processing is:

5

Q: Frequency of words in non-English language text: how can I merge singular and plural forms etc.?

I'm sorting French language words in some text files according to frequency with a focus on insight rather than statistical significance. The challenge is about preserving accented characters and dealing with the article forms in front of vowels(l', d') in the context of shaping word tokens for s...

shell-script text-processing sed portability natural-language

Andras Deak

No task in NLP seems trivial to me :P

terdon

exactly

user1306322

1:50 PM

@terdon personally, I would not and have not in the past approached complex guessing algos with a one-line regular expression lol

yea each language takes a separate approach

it's a complex task, but not impossible

thankfully I don't work there anymore so that's not my problem these days

I have made a grave mistake of drinking real coffee for the first time in many years

"I am once again asking for your intestinal support"

Dan is Fiddling by Firelight

hashing emails or otherwise obfuscating would hurt finding some types of sockputtetry. eg jimbob@gmail, jim_bob1234@yahoo.com, jimmyb9876@hotmail.com and jbob@companyname.com These all look like the same person to an eyeball check, but linking them as similar via code would be a tricky problem at best

BlueSoul

@DanisFiddlingbyFirelight the guy that took the time to use different addresses for different socks hopefully would be smart enough to use names that don't look similar to each other....

Dan is Fiddling by Firelight

2:27 PM

@BlueSoul I'd expect a lot of 1st time sockers to just reuse the email addresses they already have; and only try being sneaky after their first set of accounts all get ban hammered

BlueSoul

@DanisFiddlingbyFirelight I guess I have too much faith in the average bad user intelligence then.

Feeds

2:45 PM

Hello World: Curing imposter syndrome by embracing the suck

Ryan Donovan on February 10, 2020

One thing we continuously speak about in the programming community is impostor syndrome and how to cope with it, but no one talks about tangible steps on how to solve it within yourself. What if instead of learning how to endure, we learned how to cure it? While It’s something that happens to everyone at […]

BlueSoul

@Feeds Imposter syndrome... Deku?

Dan is Fiddling by Firelight

I have faith in infinite stupidity, laziness, and arrogance. Starting from the assumption that "no one will catch me using sock puppets" taking the time to create new email addresses for socks instead of just recycling ones the cheater already has makes perfect sense. I wouldn't be surprised if a significant fraction of bad socks are in the form of user+1@gmail, user+2@gmail, etc.

Rob

Feeds is not all-knowing:

Jan 22 at 19:13, by Feeds

"Actually, Jupiter already has a very impressive ring system!" --someone who knows Jupiter is within earshot

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