Tavern on the Meta

1:00 PM

There's absolutely no excuse to be rude to a messenger.

@Cerbrus I saw a recent MSE post where someone was defending being rude to customer support staff when complaining. Not excusing, but in effect recommending it.

Cerbrus

Ban'm

Seriously, why tolerate that?

(I know it's not that simple, but still)

BlueSoul

@Raedwald I suppose that you mean this?

It does state " Are they accountable for the product being broken? Of course not" - the problem there is not that he suggest complaining. It is that he says that people work in a company "because they choose to".

Cerbrus

Yikes

BlueSoul

In the [redacted] world humans created, few have the luck to work where they "choose to"

ColeValleyGirl

1:08 PM

@Cerbrus We (Meta users) are one of the responsible parties!

BlueSoul

Most of us work where they can, because they have to eat.

There is a clear limit to what you are able to do.

Cerbrus

@ColeValleyGirl We're the subjects.

We have no power or control over the situation.

Not even the CMs had

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus To coin a good Anglo-Saxon term, bllx.

Magisch

@Raedwald I saw that too. Got a bit miffed at that

There's a special kind of hell for people who feel superior to and are consistently rude to support staff

Cerbrus

@ColeValleyGirl Wut

Raedwald

1:11 PM

@BlueSoul I'm guessing the OP is from the US, or a Libertarian. In UK employment law (and Europe more generally? But IANAL, anyway), it is implicitly recognised that there is an imbalance of power between employers and employees: an employee can not usually simply leave a job because of a conflict with the employer, because of the disproportionate cost to the employee.

Cerbrus

@Magisch relevant: reddit.com/r/IDontWorkHereLady

PM 2Ring

Also this answer to magisch's recent question:

3

A: Time for a major shift in strategy and approach

No. You must provide your feedback, negative and positive in "as is" form. If community and analyst teams are comptent this will be better for them, because it's raw data which is much more suitable for processing and making decisions than any "prefiltered" one. If they are not competent -- no...

Magisch

lets not pretend everyone can just afford to drop a job whenever they have moral disagreements with it

8

Gimby

@Cerbrus That link is evil, my blood already started to boil after reading the first story.

Cerbrus

@Magisch This. Basically what i meant here chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8187548#8187548

ColeValleyGirl

1:14 PM

@Cerbrus We can always control our own reactions and actions and what and how we communicate. If you want to abdicate all the control you have, your choice, but it will help nobody to do so, especially you. Rage and despair are understandable, but not productive.

Cerbrus

@Gimby Some of them have awesome endings though

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus Bollox.

Cerbrus

Okay, what power do we as the community have then?

BlueSoul

@Raedwald oh, trust me, it is probably even worse where I live.

Journeyman Geek

@Cerbrus Not all that much actually

Cerbrus

1:17 PM

@JourneymanGeek That's exactly my point, but that point is said to be bollox by @ColeValleyGirl

BlueSoul

There are probably less than 5 nearby company I could work for. And every one is probably equally disorganized

An to be fair, I am quite mad at the moment.

Journeyman Geek

But if meta was not toxic, there's one less excuse. If their plans fail due to no fault of ours, there's one less excuse.

If it happens there's somewhere you're happier, leaving gracefully,is one less excuse.

Cerbrus

Sure, I don't think anyone can disagree there

Journeyman Geek

If you're a decision maker..

well a loss of a teams sale due to community misengagement might not hurt. But sales folks being told politely that's a reason regularly might

PM 2Ring

@Cerbrus We have the power to not behave negatively when SO Inc announces stuff we aren't happy with. As Shog said, that merely confirms the beliefs of those that claim MSE is a toxic hellhole. "Your anger will be held up as evidence of toxicity. Your frustration as evidence of noncooperation. Just as it has been for so many months past. My dear ex-colleagues will be blamed for failing to control you, and another rock will be laid on their backs."

Cerbrus

1:20 PM

I don't suppose you have any insight in any of that possibly happening?

Journeyman Geek

@Cerbrus I think tis been pretty blatent.

Cerbrus

@JourneymanGeek I dunno, I haven't really read about that

Journeyman Geek

@Cerbrus One of the goals we had as new meta mods was to help it be more constructive

terdon

@Raedwald Water is one of the most powerful solvents we know. If we ever find alien life, it is quite likely they will consider both water and oxygen (caustic and very reactive) as poison :)

Journeyman Geek

its a goal I felt we got closer to then...

Cerbrus

1:22 PM

@PM2Ring Politely disagreeing has been ignored for years. A community that feels ignored starts screaming louder and louder. That doesn't mean it's okay to be aggressive, but I don't think the community is only at fault there.

Journeyman Geek

@djsmiley2kindarkness youtube.com/watch?v=OYlDgwo52tI&vl=en

PM 2Ring

@Cerbrus Oh, I certainly don't claim that it's all the community's fault. Just that it's counterproductive for us to yell & scream at SO management.

Cerbrus

I agree, but what's the reason the community is that way?

BlueSoul

@PM2Ring that is true, but I would also include "your silence will be held as proof that you agree". Its... quite a no win situation when one of the party is able to narrate the other one actions as proof of what they claim.

Cerbrus

The problem is that the community hasn't been listened to in years.

Journeyman Geek

1:25 PM

@BlueSoul but disagreement does not need to be angry

2

ColeValleyGirl

The power to act and express ourselves as adults, for one.

Instead of saying 'SE made a stupid decision and fired two of the best CMs because they hate us' try '2 of the CMs the community valued highly have been fired. Was this for financial reasons; or because the systems have been improved so far that the remaining CMs can do all the work effectively with the help of automation; or because X didn't appreciate how essential the CMs are to the effective running of our sites; or because the number of sites is going to be reduced and so the workload reduced; or for some reason we can't imag…

BlueSoul

@JourneymanGeek I think I have already tried to explain that very thing two days ago with no luck yep. Glad we agree.

ColeValleyGirl

i.e. assume that from where SE is standing, it looked like a sensible decision (or one they could see no way to avoid -- that happens). Perhaps SE doesn't have all the facts, given their recent new recruits. Perhaps we don't have all the facts.

Start by assuming good intent or cockup or commercial constraint not malice. Communicate that we're listening and want to understand the constraints X is working under as far as commercial confidentiality (it's a thing) or legal considerations (it's another thing) will allow, so that we can work with them to solve the problems to all our benefit.

BlueSoul

Something about not having to be silent but avoiding being rude.

Journeyman Geek

@ColeValleyGirl that specific decision has me steaming at the ears ><

djsmiley2k in darkness

1:26 PM

@JourneymanGeek finally, a gun for Brian Blessed!

ColeValleyGirl

We're facing a long uphill climb. Maybe X hasn't reached the point where they don't feel able to stop blaming us; and we are NOT blameless in all this -- I wouldn't send my worst enemy to Meta even before 'all this' blew up -- I might not use the word toxic, but unfriendly/elitist/cliquey... and apparently not willing to appreciate the commercial realities in which SE have to operate, nor to appreciate that things change and not always in a way that suits us individually.

Nor to see the reality that Meta users are a minority and should NOT be taken as representative of all users. We should be listened to as a group of highly interested users, yes, but we haven't exactly demonstrated that we're worth listening to.

Journeyman Geek

(which is why I morn what we lost, rathetr than yelling at them)

Cerbrus

Geez, wall of text much?

ColeValleyGirl

@JourneymanGeek And did that help?

Journeyman Geek

@ColeValleyGirl not as much as it hoped, but I suspect Shog would be disappointed if I raged as much as I wished.

ColeValleyGirl

1:27 PM

@Cerbrus Some things don't lend themselves to soundbytes :)

Cerbrus

@ColeValleyGirl I'm sorry, but it's pretty obvious why they were let go. That amount of speculation isn't helping anyone.

Mithical

27

A: Time for a major shift in strategy and approach

A lot of people are saying here that it's not fair to expect us to be reasonable and calm when we've been faced with utter disrespect and contempt. I agree. It's not fair. It is totally unreasonable and unfair to expect that a crowd of people who have been ignored, called names, and treated with...

Cerbrus

@ColeValleyGirl Well, you could've left out the 4 possible reasons they were fired :P

@ColeValleyGirl That's too unprofessional. No way that's the case.

Mithical

(...I find myself linking back to stuff that I've written rather often lately, which means that either I write way too much or we just talk about the same topics again and again.)

Cerbrus

"Oops we fired a longstanding employee because we didn't have all the facts"

BlueSoul

1:30 PM

@ColeValleyGirl problem is - one of said CM posted a series of messages that made most conclude that he was fired with short-to-no notice. Now, if that is "not a problem, I will find a work by the end of the afternoon and still have money to live tomorrow" in the USA... it is not here, so that worries me. Very.

Cerbrus

@ColeValleyGirl "Start by assuming good intent or cockup or commercial constraint not malice" That station has looooooooooooong passed.

BlueSoul

I am not surprised user took the news quite badly.

Journeyman Geek

@ColeValleyGirl considering that overwork is a constant for CMs, and one of the CMs who said that quit, and I am pretty sure Shog had nearly no warning

user1306322

@Magisch I don't see it this way, I see it as we've all put together a mighty effort to collect a tremendous database of knowledge, and it just so happened that the owners of the servers got a little drunk with power and the insatiable hunger for profits (happens to the worst of us :p) and now we just gotta find a better place to copy over all our hard work so it doesn't get diluted with homework and spam.

Journeyman Geek

and least from twitter, basically a good chunk of key non C/D level employees seem... affected by it...

and there were apparently more people let go than the CMs

PM 2Ring

1:31 PM

@BlueSoul We shouldn't be silent. But we need to be civil & rational in our communication. It might seem like SO management ignore what's said on MSE, but Yaakov assured us a little while ago that the info does make its way up the chain. But I'm reminded that Jeff wrote a blog post years ago: "Listen to your community, but don't let them tell you what to do".

Cerbrus

@ColeValleyGirl, I suggest you read jlericson.com/2020/01/17/leaving_stack.html

djsmiley2k in darkness

@JourneymanGeek "I suddenly find myself in need of employment"

Journeyman Geek

@djsmiley2kindarkness well and a few more things I can't talk about.

Cerbrus

"Suddenly" does imply a lack of warning.

Journeyman Geek

but yeah, it was sudden

user1306322

1:32 PM

I don't really care who earns money from all these efforts, as long as they don't prevent others from earning money (or making use of the information)... kinda like live however you want, but don't harm/impede others, same thing here

terdon

@ColeValleyGirl And entitled, don't forget entitled.

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus Is it? I've read everything I can find on the subject, including posts etc. from SC and the remaining CMs that indicate that the shortfall in resources is making things difficult for the remaining team. So the CMs think they need more resources. And there's no intent to replace them, so it wasn't that the individual faces no longer fitted.

... so I'm inclined to the 'CM team was too expensive -- one has resigned so we only need to fire these two to get the costs to the acceptable level' explanation.

Journeyman Geek

@ColeValleyGirl that basically means we're not worth spending money on

the CM team peaked at 14

Its down to 3+1

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus What makes you think they've been hiring professionals? Or at least people with relevant experience rathwer than wet-behind-the-ears theorists.

BlueSoul

Jan 16 at 11:39, by BlueSoul

I also meant that rude feedback is bad because it is rude, not because it is feedback.

Cerbrus

1:34 PM

@ColeValleyGirl Lol, no. The past decisions of SE corporate made it very clear they're less and less interested in the community aspect of SE.

BlueSoul

and other messages around there.

Cerbrus

They weren't fired for "budget cuts"

Journeyman Geek

@Cerbrus a company going to IPO isn't going to say they fired people to save money though

Cerbrus

@ColeValleyGirl They hired people that are -very- aware of what they're doing.

Raedwald

Irony I think many people are angry because they haven't really internalised what commercial constraints mean, in general but in this case in particular. They think commercial organizations can deliver what we need/want, because they have some faith in capitalism. Whereas, as a revolutionary socialist, I can easily accept it as capitalism delivering crap, again.

Journeyman Geek

1:35 PM

The glorious revolution is glorious! Everyone is fed!

Those hungry people on the street are lazy

Cerbrus

@JourneymanGeek True, but looking at the context of the layoffs... I don't believe it's just "budget cuts"

djsmiley2k in darkness

lol

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Cerbrus of course not

djsmiley2k in darkness

Look at the product - Teams. Why do you need CMs?

Journeyman Geek

@Cerbrus we don't know the big picture

Shadow The Burning Wizard

1:37 PM

@JourneymanGeek I know its color

ColeValleyGirl

@BlueSoul I live in the UK and find labor laws in the States are unkind. But SE had apparently the right to fire at-will -- could they have put Shog9 and Robert Cartaino on 'gardening leave' without access to the systems? Possibly, if the money was there and the books wouldn't suffer.... but if they were the most expensive members of the CM team, that might not have been acceptable to the bean-counters. Who seem to be in the ascendancy.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

(hint: not bright)

user1306322

@Raedwald you know there's a very solid argument to be made that if the company spent more time making it easier for the moderators and the meta users to basically maintain the site better and review things faster, it would increase their profits significantly

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus ONly if you're willing to hit the buffer at the end of the track.

Mithical

@JourneymanGeek Remember that interview with Joel? Where he said that the board had pressured him to fire certain people and he was like "no, they're amazing"?

Journeyman Geek

1:38 PM

@Mithical yup

Mithical

Well... here we are.

terdon

@user1306322 I doubt it. Public Q&A is a very small part of their profits. No changes here would significantly affect profits one way or another.

Cerbrus

@ColeValleyGirl What does that even mean

Journeyman Geek

And I guess someone finally didn't have the willingness to say no

Here's the thing. Shog is one of those folks who kept a lot of us here. He's one of the reasons SE went to 70 million. Its hard to go "nothing personal" when its someone who has poured his heart and soul into this place

terdon

We all need to get this through our heads: WE ARE NOT THE PRODUCT. Public Q&A is clearly not a priority for the company.

user1306322

1:39 PM

@terdon I believe the name recognition could be improved even more if the site was better and "friendlier" in a way that doesn't repeat the mistakes of "the welcoming", and it would make it so that more people would remember SO fondly and recommend to their bosses to check out those paid teams plans

Journeyman Geek

@terdon well. they need us every time they mess up on their grand plans.

but sigh

user1306322

they kinda went for the short term profits forgetting that the long terms exist

Journeyman Geek

I'm going to take a break. I'm a little too worked up

terdon

@user1306322 I really doubt it. They have been doing Enterprise and Teams for years now and there are apparently more than enough takers with individual companies paying in the millions per year. We're irrelevant.

BlueSoul

@ColeValleyGirl It is not very effective

Sorry, I have reached a point when I strongly believe legal rights do not equal morality or ethics far ago. Saying that one was "legally allowed to do something" does not make a bad action any better in my eyes.

Raedwald

1:41 PM

Staff are expensive. Take their annual salary. Add pension, health-care contributions, employer taxes, etc and overheads for work-place facilities. As that is an annual expenditure, multiply by about 8-10 (I think) to get an equivalent capital sum. Not hard for a handful of staff to be equivalent to an investment of £1M.

user1306322

@terdon well, we can't peek into alternate realities, so these are just theories anyway :p

terdon

@BlueSoul Of course not. I don't think anyone is arguing the opposite. Obviously legal doesn't imply moral.

@user1306322 Well, the numbers aren't. Those come from Joel's interview.

And surely we have enough evidence by now to believe the company doesn't consider public Q&A as a priority.

Cerbrus

Plenty

terdon

Just look at the people they've fired and those they have not...

Mast

Suspicious answers here and here, suggestions?

ArtOfCode

1:43 PM

spam

Both?

Leave them.

yup

The first will be removed anyway since the question is crap.

But the second makes me think.

terdon

I'm sure they're spam. But...

ColeValleyGirl

1:45 PM

@BlueSoul I agree, but when the bean-counters are in charge (as I strongly suspect is the case) the people in the company who want to behave better don't have enough leverage.

Mast

Looks an awful lot like spam anyway.

ArtOfCode

First is definitely spam, and given that it's the same user I'm heavily inclined to call the second spam too, but I'd probably mod-flag rather than spam-flag.

Mithical

yes, I'm the user of eSoftTools — ron devid 20 secs ago

Mast

Wat

Cerbrus

They're both in Engrish

Mast

1:47 PM

Either he doesn't understand what I meant...

Oh well

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus Did you ever work in a large company? I did -- and saw key employees given 'voluntary severance with gardening leave' (they left the building immediately -- I used to yearn to be given a job in the German arm of the company because the severance terms were so generous) and only then did their manager 3 levels up appreciate the hole that was left. Which took 2 years to fill effectively.

Cerbrus

Just a suggestion: If a message is 2 pages up... You might wanna skip replying to it

Just. there's no way they weren't (made) aware of Shog's value.

terdon

They clearly weren't.

Or he'd still be here.

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus '2 pages up'? Depends how big your monitor is!

terdon

I know for a fact that he could do things no other CM could, for example. I find it very hard to believe whoever fired him was even aware of that.

Cerbrus

1:51 PM

Being aware and valuing are different things

terdon

Let alone all of his "soft" expertise with the community.

Mithical

@Cerbrus Meh, that's not how asynchronous communication works... which is how I'd define SE chat.

Raedwald

@Mithical Buffer overrun.

Cerbrus

Yea, but if a conversation came to a natural conclusion, I don't really like having to scroll back up and read the context

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus Evidence? (And yes, I have a very tall screen :))

Magisch

1:53 PM

@ColeValleyGirl standard terms in our industry is 1.5 months per year of service

for severance

terdon

@Cerbrus That's... kind of how chat works though. People might have to step away and only see the notification later.

Mithical

(whoops)

Cerbrus

@ColeValleyGirl Read my other emssages here

@terdon Booo those people

:D

terdon

You're free to ignore the reply if you don't want to continue, but telling people not to reply to something that's "two pages behind" seems a bit odd.

4

Cerbrus

Meh, there's other things people are telling other users to say that I find odd

I suggest we move on to kittens.

Or!... I met a Boerboel 2 days ago.... She was <trump accent> HYUUUUGE</accent>

Raedwald

1:56 PM

@Cerbrus Does anyone have any good kittens recipes? ;-) ;-(

Cerbrus

Quite imposing... (human for scale) but then she stood on her hind legs, gently put het paws on my chest and just cuddled

Mithical

INGREDIENTS

one (1) baby cat
one (1) adult cat
one (1) adult human
three (3) soft pillows

INSTRUCTIONS

Place adult cat on floor. Do not cook. Position adult human on pillows. Place baby cat on top. Leave at room temperature for several hours for best results.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@JNat bit more complex this time: this user and this one are most likely the same spammer, e.g. see here. Can you check for more nodes in the spam ring? Thanks!

terdon

@Cerbrus awwwwww! CUTE!

Cerbrus

@Mithical Add extra kittens until you reach desired intensity

@terdon Surprisingly, she was xD

Gimby

2:00 PM

@Cerbrus holy moley, you cuddled with a tank

Cerbrus

(not me in that pic, but the dog was about that size)

It was a weird experience... She was so gentle

terdon

I love huge dogs.

Gimby

brr, gives me the creeps. I watched "Don't f*ck with Cats" on Netflix recently... I'm still rattled.

Cerbrus

Imma visit a friend this week who has a dane <3

Gimby

wut, misclick

ColeValleyGirl

2:02 PM

My go-to kittens:
https://i.stack.imgur.com/eCKII.jpg

Rubiksmoose

> Do not cook

XD

terdon

Damn, that's one big dog!

Or three normal ones, I guess.

Cerbrus

Yup, once I kneeled down she just pushed me over with cuddles xD

Mithical

@terdon All heavier than me. o_o

Cerbrus

@Mithical I always assumed you to be of... Mithical size

Mithical

2:05 PM

I am, but like a leprechaun, or a gnome.

Cerbrus

Well, technically, you are of mithical size...

terdon

@Mithical Yeah. I'm in the lower range for a male. So, chances are any one of those I meet will be heavier than me. Wow. I think I'm in love!

Magisch

is it a big dog?

in my experience the bigger the dog, the more cuddly and friendly the dog

BlueSoul

Cerbrus

Big dogs get proper training

BlueSoul

2:07 PM

@Gimby ^ this?

Gimby

Ah, the Silent Hill version of Puss 'N Boots.

Cerbrus

Smaller dog are just too cute to tell not to bark, apparently

Mithical

@BlueSoul Sorry, haven't watched CATS.

@Cerbrus small dogs are terrifying

Cerbrus

I always say... If a dog is small enough to kick over a fence, it's not a dog.

Not that I ever would, mind you. But I really don't like small dogs xD

Magisch

@Cerbrus our small office dog almost never barks

BlueSoul

2:10 PM

@Magisch Two words: pit bull

(which to be fair I am not sure qualify as dogs)

Cerbrus

@Magisch Good owner

BlueSoul

(more like corrupted dogs created by human idiocy)

Magisch

@Cerbrus it's a havanese dog. very fluffy with white fur. No barks. No bites. Doesn't really do much besides play fetch and collect pets all day

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus Nop.e They hired people in their same image, including the same blind spots.

Magisch

currently roleplaying a carpet by laying flat on the ground without moving

terdon

2:12 PM

@BlueSoul they're not big dogs.

Or corrupted. They often have stupid owners, I'll give you that.

Cerbrus

@ColeValleyGirl Now you're doing it on purpose

@Magisch Possibly cute, but not my type of dog :P

Magisch

@Cerbrus looks extremely similar to journey's dog except with more fur

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus No, I'm just busy trying to convert a Drupal 7 website to Drupal 8 and have stacked up a bunch of posts to respond to in the long waits....

BlueSoul

@terdon to be fair... some dogs races have indeed being "corrupted" to give them aggressive behavior for men own purposes. That was I meant.

Cerbrus

@ColeValleyGirl Skipe mine please :-)

ColeValleyGirl

2:15 PM

I did send kittens but am not a sufficiently educated chat user to make them appear...

Cerbrus

Just dump a link to an image in the textbox

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus Did that. https worked!

terdon

@BlueSoul Eh, I've never seen any convincing arguments about that, myself. But either way, pit bulls aren't big dogs.

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus But you're worth debating with...

Rob

Cerbrus

2:17 PM

@ColeValleyGirl http(s):// is missing

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus thx.

Cerbrus

np

That scrutinizing look from that baby is unsettling xD

ColeValleyGirl

@Cerbrus Scary even. We've all been measured and found wanting.

Gimby

now that's a boss baby.

BlueSoul

@terdon There are some research available for that topic. That said, I was merely suggesting that some of the "bigger" dogs have been trained and selected for security/defense/hunt purposes, so their behavior can be problematic.

That said, you can't really blame the dog for being what we shaped it into.

Cerbrus

2:22 PM

@BlueSoul can't really => really can't

:D

BlueSoul

To be fair, I suspect that even "barking" is a behavior men forced into the dogs.

I don't think wolves barks as much as dogs do.

We selected them to bark because it was convenient for us to use them as an alarm.

terdon

@BlueSoul Thanks, that looks interesting. Although from what I can see it contradicts your statement. The paper shows that aggression seems to have a slight correlation with small to medium sizes, not big ones.

Which, granted, might be an argument against pit bulls since they're small to medium dogs.

ColeValleyGirl

@Magisch Standard terms where?

ArtOfCode

As far as I'm concerned, if a dog isn't big enough and fluffy enough to knock me over, it's not big and fluffy enough :P

Cerbrus

@ArtOfCode This

And if a dog is small enough to be hurt by cuddles, it's too smal.

ArtOfCode

2:30 PM

I'd have something like a Bernese mountain dog

Magisch

@ColeValleyGirl software / office industry in germany

(mid size companies)

PM 2Ring

This looks like an interesting study of aggression in dogs vs in wolves: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4424647

Cerbrus

LIVING WITH 14 BERNESE MOUNTAIN DOGS!!! Ep.1 || vlog006

►

Magisch

@ArtOfCode you mean one that won't flinch if you use it as a pillow?

I've seen these before, they're giant softies

Gimby

my cat doesn't flinch either. I only find it fair that I can do that when she uses me as a pillow on a daily basis.

ColeValleyGirl

2:32 PM

@Magisch My German colleagues were feather bedded by the deals agreed by the parent company with the local electricity/gas companies they'd subsumed. No closing the power stations for X years, all employees to be let go whenever on Y terms. German consumers were the losers -- I saw employees on what were already exorbitant salaries allowed to leave with enough gardening leave to carry them until their generous pensions kicked in.

Magisch

@ColeValleyGirl Thats the flipside of unions. They've been trying to close a plant that isn't profitable for several years now, but now they've agreed to not actually close it because they couldn't come to an agreement with the union :D

Mithical

> "...I get nervous when users start quoting numbers and propose ways to artificially drive them higher. Calls to lower the bar on quality or close less questions are focusing on the wrong thing. There’s more to a healthy Stack Exchange site than having a lot of questions and traffic..."

-Robert Cartaino

ColeValleyGirl

@Magisch I believe the feather-bedding was at the behest of the municipalities who gave up their local power plants rather than the unions but I could be wrong.

Magisch

still better then the other extreme, imo

nobody is getting filthy rich off of a power plant worker salary

ColeValleyGirl

@Magisch Oh, yes, I know that. Spent some time in the early 90s training former coal plant operatives (crane drivers, essentially) to use IT system. (That's a mouse; you operate it with your hand. No, your hand, not your foot. This is email. This is a browser....). The ones that could adapt were amazed at what they could earn doing desktop support... My synpathies were all with the ones that couldn't adapt.

rene

2:51 PM

@Rubiksmoose please don't spend too much time on posts by brand new meta accounts that are about recent events. Don't feed them. Close as unclear and let them edit.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

3:05 PM

Pretty sure some of those are socks of suspended accounts... flagged one yesterday.

As expected, flag still pending.

(Likely forever.... I don't custom flag anymore for a reason, did it just for fun.)

Anyway...

!!/coffee

SmokeDetector

@ShadowTheBurningWizard brews a cup of Affogato for @ShadowTheBurningWizard

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowTheBurningWizard We're busy, okay. I was crocheting, watching a movie and getting some sanity back yesterday :P

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Tinkeringbell forgiven!

spanking dog instead

Tinkeringbell

Leave dog alone too.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

And possible sock with 211 rep. heh

Tinkeringbell

3:08 PM

Remember... blameless ;)

Shadow The Burning Wizard

:P

Rubiksmoose

3:24 PM

@rene Okydoke. I only noticed part way through that they were a new one with no other accounts. So I stopped after.

PM 2Ring

Looks like Yaakov's been busy on the expanded usercards. meta.stackexchange.com/q/334941/334566

Tinkeringbell

Oh nice! :D

Andras Deak

5 hours ago, by Yaakov Ellis

@AndrasDeak US office is closed today. And all I have planned is to release a feature that should make y'all happy. So I really do not expect there to be any drama

Tinkeringbell

3:40 PM

Eh, this one is nice but... I was expecting something happier? :P

Maybe there's more :P

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@PM2Ring he's busy with many things, it's fascinating to watch.

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowTheBurningWizard Shouldn't you be working too? :P

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Tinkeringbell I'm too busy to reply to that!

:D

Tinkeringbell

My work today included eating M&M's ;)

Shadow The Burning Wizard

I just fixed a long time (2 years) bug with daily report in Outlook. This gives me some credit. :D

Turns out Outlook respects custom height of table cells only.

So the HTML of the email must consist of... tables. (when you need custom height of stuff, e.g. bar graph)

Microsoft in its full glory.

Tinkeringbell

3:43 PM

I'm implementing strategy patterns but not really strategy patterns? But we'll get there, slowly :P

Cerbrus

Outlook is especially stubborn when it comes to parsing HTML

<div class="container subtype"></div> won't work, for example...

As outlook ignores all classes on a element after the first one.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Cerbrus It does work, just not for height.

Maybe it was worse in older Outlook versions, luckily I have to take care of 2016.

Cerbrus

It was a while ago

I remember having to add combined classes to my css like container_subtype and stuffing the styling of both css classes in there.

<3 css preprocessing though

Shadow The Burning Wizard

eww lol

terdon

@Cerbrus surely there are more than 3 css preprocessors!

Cerbrus

3:49 PM

@terdon r/technicallythetruth

terdon

heh

Sorry, I hate that <3 thing.

Supposedly, if you look at it sideways it's like a heart. But all I see when looking at it sideways is a little gnome in a pointy hat taking a dump.

Mithical

<3 you too, terdon

Cerbrus

@terdon Torn your head the other way.

And don't tell me you see an icecream cone with 2 scoops xD

terdon

what can I say, I am visually... challenged. I'll go with challenged.

Mithical

(For reference: My above message is absolutely intended to be read in the context of the message above it.)

Disappointed in SE

3:54 PM

@Mithical you're suggesting we should flag your message as offensive?

terdon

@Mithical No, too late. You love me. You said it, no backsies!

Mithical

Um, uh, I mean, there are less than three terdons! Yeah that's what I menat.

terdon

♪ Mithical and terdon, sitting in a tree... ♪

Cerbrus

P-o-...

<3

Rubiksmoose

@Mithical Goodness help us if there were more than 3! There's no way we could deal with all that awesomeness.

Mithical

3:59 PM

@Cerbrus oh god

terdon

@Rubiksmoose I believe you meant "awesomeness", with scare quotes :P

user400654

o/

Cerbrus

@Mithical Sorry, couldn't resist xD

curious

→ 17 messages moved to Chimney

→ 1 message moved to Chimney

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