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3:00 AM
For several consecutive problems.
it's been weeks since what I consider to have been the major incident
thiz puzzles me.
Illegal license violations, GDPR-violating PII collection via ads, the firing of Monica...
yep, I'm quite aware
just not so much up-to-date
But hey, they did improve the CoC
Improved it after the drama?
I wasn't here for the height of the drama.
Whether that's fortunate or not.
3:02 AM
Yeah after deleting the highly downvoted announcement right? Well, the improved version is good enough. I'm personally cool with it.
It's just... as others have put it, a matter of priorities
I wish we still had the Be Nice policy. It was much more succinct and included just as much.
But yeah, priorities. There is a lot more rotten with SE than a badly-worded CoC.
It's a chandelier cake, when the original was fine.
TIL there's a name for that thing
The original wasn't just fine. It was perfect.
3:05 AM
The upgrade seems unnecessary.
@forest eh, it didn't quite scale, and people somehow manage to rules lawyer nice
@JourneymanGeek People always will. Now, however, it's gotten even worse.
The early CoCs worked quite well cause community involvement
The more detail you have, the more options there are for abuse.
Don't forget
3:05 AM
I have to admit I've abused the current CoC more than once to get comments deleted.
Mods are stubborn, strongwilled pedants
but we also care deeply for our sites and the people in it.
Some are very kind, easy going.
I appreciate SE mods in general, even if I disdain (some of) the staff.
I had a problem with a few, but on the main sites I'm on (Infosec and Crypto), the mods are awesome.
I mostly do, too. Unfortunately, many of those I admired have resigned (rightfully so)
It's unfortunate that they had to resign, but fortunate that they were willing to make that sacrifice.
3:08 AM
Now we're left with a larger proportion of a bit 'less nice', so to speak, community managers
Which will continue to distance the community and staff over time.
Until finally someone pays me to spam the site into oblivion and I can get back to doing what I love.
@Marc.2377 the community managers are fine
@JourneymanGeek Most of them, at least. CMs are overall pretty good.
they might be, but they are somewhat under orders, arent they?
@Marc.2377 and yet, they're trying their best
3:09 AM
@Marc.2377 Well I'm thinking of just one or two people who are willfully... bullies, shall we say.
But the majority are nice and well-meaning.
just to be clear I don't have a problem with any of the CMs so far.
@Marc.2377 Wait until you get banned for a month and they refuse to tell you what for.
Even when multiple people in comments mention that it seems like patent abuse.
But that was just a few, and wasn't representitive of mods or CMs in general.
I don't even participate too much here to warrant that, but would not surprise me if it did, given the grand scheme of things right now.
It happened to me and I was very pissed, but after seeing what happened to Monica, I realize it was a rather small abuse in the scheme of things, and not something unique to me.
@forest eh, if it was me, I typically tell you what its about D:
Just you don't always seem to understand
3:12 AM
You keep saying that, but...
Even when I sometimes repeat myself
As I saw someone else stating on Meta somewhere, their actual job and pay are on the line, should they refuse to follow guidelines from upper management (even when unjust)
Even other people realized that you were being intellectually dishonest in your repetition.
@Marc.2377 that's true of any job
can't disagree
3:13 AM
@forest and yet, that's not a "no one told you"
Yes, but some jobs are more strict than others.
that was "Me telling it to you in the most annoying way possible"
@JourneymanGeek Yes it was, as others pointed out to you.
Countless times.
I even got multiple (well, two, but that's still multiple!) emails about the event.
But hey, I can't argue semantics with someone who thinks "hypocrite" and "liar" mean the same thing.
/me digs for quote
@forest and yeah, people were annoyed
@forest and yet you do
Do what? Argue semantics?
ah, here it was
in English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, Aug 30 at 9:07, by RegDwigнt
A hypocrite is not a liar, that is sort of the whole point. They genuinely believe in both of the conflicting things.
3:16 AM
And doing it now
Well yeah since right now all you can do is kick me (and I'm about to leave anyway). :D
Don't forget
And not kick me on, you know, totally and utterly unrelated chat rooms with their own rules. >_>
the old policy was be nice and assume good intent
And yet, as lots of people pointed out to you, you were blatantly assuming bad intent yourself!
But hey, SE is full of double standards, so who am I to complain?
3:17 AM
@forest if you don't understand the rules its on you ;p
Oh I do. I also understand English and the definitions of words.
no. I was annoying you cause you were annoying me ;p
Oh yeah the repetition thing.
Yeah that I could tell.
as for the no profanity rule
its network wide
I was kicked for saying "scr*wed up" once...
And once for saying "he*l" (the place where the wyrm dieth not and the fire is never quenched).
Oh yeah, and seeing multiple mods use the f word... ya know.
But yes, I get the no profanity rule and I do abide by it now.
I g2g so I'll leave you and your blood pressure alone now
3:21 AM
I even saw a relevant post here days ago arguing how we would benefit from having that precise bit added back to the CoC - assume good intent
Assume good intent?
I posted that
you? hold on
yeah, exactly
nice one
and tbh, it would also be a really nice, non controversial way to show the community they're listening
3:24 AM
sure would.

Unfortunately I assume they showed no sign of having even _seen_ that post?
(aibobot is also me. Posting on my phone and my work PC ._.)
No real idea
but its out there and sometimes you have no idea what people see until it happens
there used to be a time when we weren't left wondering for much long though
Jeff once did a FR I did... 3 years later
3:27 AM
the FR aspect of things always seemed to suck a bit, except for the first couple of years after launch, apparently (can I say suck in this context - are we all adults here? xD)
anyway, there used to be some more involvement, that's how I perceive it
@Marc.2377 its always been pretty terrible
Meta isn't really designed as a great way to do FRs
its actually kinda a wierd thing that grew organically. Its not good at any one thing, but its better than having 4 things for it.
anyway I've seen jeff saying more than once (on Meta and actually on video too) that about 90% of feedback etc. was pure garbage
Sounds like Jeff
3:30 AM
and I was made aware recently that there has been a situation wrt another site/software he is currently involved with
you might have heard of that
Oh? Discourse I know
situation no
that situation
or rather, a series of
arn't they all?
And no, not really following discourse
I heard from someone who was personally involved (on the receiving end of it all) on that chat group I mentioned
on Discourse - in fact it would be nice to have you I guess. We have some good members. Some of which who have been directly mistreated here
discord is it?
3:34 AM
It is. If you check my profile on any SE site (except the main network domain) there will be a link there.
I have it on my phone
Well, guess I'll be going, got a few other matters to attend to
nice chatting, cya another time
p.s. just wanted to say welcome to @SmokeDetector after reading his description.
As I, for one, also welcome our robot overlords
1 hour later…
5:03 AM
this is an interesting discussion about pronouns from 5.5 year ago - it's got some recent answers.
Q: Does the SO community view itself as gender neutral?

Hayley GuillouThe website design and formatting of Stack Overflow is very gender neutral, but most users (arguably) come to the site for user content. So a question (or two) to ALL fellow users: When posting a question/answer/comment do you try to keep your post gender neutral (by thinking about correct pron...

6:47 AM
8 messages moved to Chimney
1 hour later…
7:53 AM
Well, changed the clocks last night, so got an extra hour of sleep. You'd think, then, that I'd be well-rested... but you would be wrong. <insert picture of coffee / hot chocolate mix>
8:14 AM
@Shadow PERSIAN. It's Persian!
@M.A.R. meh. Arabic letters. :D
Well then we're all talking Latin and Greek at the moment.
With a weird accent
I am ze Faench stereeeotype.
@EKons is from Greece
8:41 AM
@M.A.R. That's a relatively recent change, though, isn't it?
I mean, using the Arabic characters. Or was that Turkish?
...or was it the other way around in Turkish?
I dunno, I'm all mixed up.
I thought turkish used latin charecters
cause Attaturk thought it made them moden
The Turkish alphabet (Turkish: Türk alfabesi) is a Latin-script alphabet used for writing the Turkish language, consisting of 29 letters, seven of which (Ç, Ş, Ğ, I, İ, Ö, Ü) have been modified from their Latin originals for the phonetic requirements of the language. This alphabet represents modern Turkish pronunciation with a high degree of accuracy and specificity. Mandated in 1928 as part of Atatürk's Reforms, it is the current official alphabet and the latest in a series of distinct alphabets used in different eras. == History == === Early reform proposals === The earliest known Tur...
yeah so that's what I was thinking of
2 hours later…
Yay free flags 🤣
Enjoy them while they last.
I think no at least have the weekend 😁
10:46 AM
Yeah... For a process that shouldn't take that long... I find it takes quite some time! :)
@Tinkeringbell eh. It's not really a huge priority
Probably not no...
Well, I want to have you back ... ASAP!
I miss sparring with people and hate leaving flags just because there's no second pair of eyes :(
11:01 AM
I don't want to push too hard though
Folks have enough on their plate
To be fair, they'd probably have less after giving the diamond back to you.
It's in motion
It is :) I got the e-mail asking if I had any objections yesterday... :)
@user58 a lot of it I can't help with. Some of it I Probably did fine with no diamond
And big picture is still fixing things longer term with the community ._.
11:57 AM
As a parrot I would assume hearing yourself say "Yeah, this is not good" counts as the second pair of eyes ...
Parrots only repeat what they are told ;) They need someone to tell them 'yeah, this is not good' first :P
Okay, open the flag queue, first comment flag: "Yeah, this is not good" click decline ... :p
I've actually started post flags, because I'm a bit out of comment flags 0.o
Let me know when you're in for a refill ...
Let me get the queue back to double digits first? Only 7 more flags to go! XD
12:14 PM
Too bad @rene... I'm 'stuck' at 103. The rest is for wiser heads than mine.
No problem. Wiser heads will show up ....
don't tell me you have an mse post already for a flag you handled :/
user image
....don't ask me what the context of that image was when it was first created, because I have no idea.
I just came across it recently on my laptop and thought it appropriate when @rene said "wiser heads will show up". ;)
@rene It seems so...
But the comments are handling it fine :)
12:33 PM
@user58 the head floats by ...
12:51 PM
No idea
1:25 PM
We have 2 smokeys again?
10 messages moved to Chimney
@user58 Persians switched to the Arabic script after being invaded by Arabs 14 centuries ago, while Turks switched to Latin after WWI. C-. Pay attention in class.
> "class"
I have no class, I'm extremely rude.
Alright. Pay attention rudely.
It still does not excuse your behavior, young man/woman!
Go to your room.
*steeples fingers*
1:32 PM
... given that they are a room owner here, that seems accomplished @M.A.R.
@user58 Aw, adorable
@Bart Oh, that explains the smell
I believe in a classless society 🐶
We've proven to be quite classless over the last few weeks.
Yes, you have
At least mine is the default, I didn't change anything
Can I take smiting sticks onto an airplane to Iran? Just curious ...
1:41 PM
Going from Emporio Armani to paper mache fake 3D glasses
@Bart there's lots of bureaucracy until you give up
You're welcome to try, stickman
1:59 PM
Awesome. I've just launched <redacted> after 6 months, it said it needed an update, and promptly updated itself. It then launched itself again, said it needed an update and began updating itself again.
2:11 PM
That just happened to me two days ago, sooo
2:22 PM
@JohnDvorak Sometimes the updater needs to update the updater so it can better do updates.
2:45 PM
I'm actually tempted to make some sort of NLP function that attempts to discern "rudeness", although I don't know how it would be distinguished from curtness or directness.
Also, there's also the issue of message vs. delivery.
I personally prefer a respectful delivery of a problematic message over the reverse.
But being on this accursed autism spectrum makes me care more about systematizing than feelings.
@DavidA I think there already are a few of those out there? (They do always require human oversight)... I know the IPS comment bot has some sort of algorithm that 'scores' comments based on how rude they may be (we don't do much with it yet though)
In fact, if I could be bothered, I'd like to see if people on the autism spectrum have a statistically significant preference for a deontological ethical framework over consequentialism compared to the general population.
Interesting. According to some research, I might be somewhat wrong about that.
Look around the SObotics room; maybe what they have will already satisfy your needs
3:05 PM
@JourneymanGeek Is there no way to dump these in SO?
Well these users are often question banned.
And we really do want to discourage them from asking here
In theory a mod can try to move it, but if they're qbanned there it will fail
Also its a bit of a return to normality D:
Hopefully not because all the dissenters were banned.
I think they've just said what they wanted to say and then stopped.
@DavidA I think, for all the uproar MSE has seen the past few weeks... surprisingly few people were actually suspended.
@DavidA Drama dosen't burn on forever
The question is what we have left after that
@user58 Ceiling head watches you type
3:15 PM
@JohnDvorak the best part was when that happened to Hanselman in the middle of one of his presentations....
@JourneymanGeek Odd... The user appears to have an account on SO that hasn't been used in a year.
I get 1/2 swag: i.sstatic.net/kKwZU.png
I think a lot of IT people fall into this "close tickets as fast as possible" mindset.
@DavidA we deal with a lot of those ._.
@rene you can have mine so you can get full swag
3:29 PM
@DavidA Paper from University of Amsterdam on building a rudeness classifier might be of interest
Now-a-days (I mean its only 4 years since that paper so take that with a grain of salt) the focus is on identifying patterns of behavior as these are more telling. I don't mean a "rude score" of 5 of 10 is not bad a repeated pattern of 5s might be (though that certainly exists). But of a system that would use sentiment analysis on several comments and their responses (weighed by flagging) to build patterns which are then used within the algorithm to determine the likelihood of a "rude" comment.
^ and yes, this should cause a notice similar to what SmokeDetector does not an autodelete
also, its not really that different than the technique that paper employs
@LinkBerest smokedetector doesn't delete anything.
4:06 PM
@rene yeah, that's what I meant ("similar to what SmokeDetector does")
but yes, I missed two commas
4:32 PM
herp de derp
either I was already ill and it's struck with bad timing
or the flu vaccine has made me ill.
4:54 PM
@LinkBerest response to content can be influenced by any number of things that are not necessarily rude however, such as prior experience with said content, particular interest in a subject, or varia.
@DavidA Generally speaking, (at least from SO outwards) we try not to move content that would simply be closed on the target site as well. Maybe it's different from SE outwards, but I wouldn't think so?
5:35 PM
@rene I'm disappointed that you felt the need to remove a good-faith reaching-out to attempt to improve a tense situation. I was inspired, perhaps partly from the conversation between heather and Monica that they posted about on meta, and also by some heartfelt words from another mod. But hey, it's your room - if friendly conversation and repairing of situations is off-topic, that's your call, and I'll leave.
I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't misrepresent me though, implying I'm "counsel[ling] users to change their own self-being" and lumping me in with those slinging "insults/berating". THAT's insulting.
5:48 PM
@Randal'Thor FWIW, I think rene didn't make that big of a mistake. You were clearly trying to improve a tense situation, but there's been plenty of times in here before were exactly doing that led to more tense situations. Look at it from his side: there's been plenty of attempts to do the same thing over a few days, and none of them ended well...
6:00 PM
It does start to look like some people have all the rights to say whatever they want, and other folks are being kicked when answering. It feels a bit unfair that their content gets to stay.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier No one was kicked... just some messages moved to Trash before they could even attract an answer and incite a situation where people needed to be kicked.
I've been kicked. But possibly Rand wasn't. I'd rather all content was removed, rather than hand picked.
Can you put a chat mod-flag on the stuff that ROs forgot to move? I'll take a look. Just one at the beginning of the chain would suffice.
welcome to the utterly broken world of chat flags
@Tinkeringbell I think that what I mean is, it feels strange that initial content that incites answers, that eventually lead to more tense situation, is allowed to stay, whereas answers to said content aren't. If I could get together a clunky metaphor, it's like in hockey.
One player makes a move that eventually leads up to a penalty. Initial move isn't penalized, but subsequent ones are.
Even though the initial shove in the boards wasn't warranted, or legal.
6:06 PM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Well, in this case... chat moderation is a bit broken I guess... but in general if a conversation is over because it turned very unpleasant, and someone posts something that might start it up again shortly after (or directly pinging one of the people involved in the initial unpleasantness)... that last bit is the part that gets removed.
Ideally RO's and mods clean up the entire initial conversation too, hence me asking you to flag it if there's still remnants left...
that's er... an interesting star and unstarring exchange here..
The ROs aren't always around to see everything. If I notice something likely to cause a problem, then I'll tend to remove it. However, the Tavern is... a busy room (the only room I can think of that's more busy (excluding bot rooms) is the Teachers' Lounge, TBH), and some of us are busy and don't always see everything. So, yeah, things aren't always going to be handled the same way every time. It all depends on when someone arrived, who's there, what the context is...
And yeah if people could stop the starring that'd be great, thanks
I mean, for instance, the content to which Rand answered, still sits in the Tavern, if I understand the transcript correctly. Whereas their answers don't?
@user58 Someone seems to believe that it's star worthy, yet someone else doesn't. I'm not sure what the rules are about that, I thought people were free to star what they believe to be star-able?
@FélixGagnon-Grenier are you expecting some sort of answer to all this?
Stuff from the middle of an argument tends to not belong on the starboard, especially if it's dependent on context.
6:11 PM
@djsmiley2k-CoW the star part, or the content part?
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Rand's reply wasn't exactly a reply in that it was an attempt to start a different, related conversation - a conversation that was deemed to not really belong in the Tavern by a RO.
content. personally the star thing is childish on both sides.
@user58 Ok. In the chatrooms I frequent, culture is a bit different, and sometimes such stars allow other folks to read things they would otherwise have missed, but other places other rules :)
And seriously, stop with the stars, please. Someone is apparently starring and unstarring themselves, in order to cause a problem.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier In this case, the message Rand replied to was directed at a single person, and it was read by that person, and replied to too... The conversation was basically over. Also, what user58 said about it being a tangential discussion.
6:14 PM
errr can the mods/ro's not see who's staring
and if not, just delete the entire comment.
Nope. Nobody without database access can see who starred.
I think they can't. that would be unfortunate to delete everything.
if only stars set the activity flag
It's someone behaving childishly. I'm not trashing a whole conversation because someone's acting like a seven-year-old.
@Tinkeringbell Ok. I think I am not used to such a high profile room then. I (think I) understand what you say, but experienced things differently in otehr rooms.
6:15 PM
it'd stop these people who just idle, to sit there randomly staring something to cause up trouble.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Yeah... the Tavern is a bit of a highway as opposed to the town road that most rooms are, and as such is going to be a bit different.
ugh this is all so tense. Am I the only one getting tearful when expecting things to go roughly, and then they don't, and I'm all "why am I like this, people are nice"
It's... going to be different the next time something like this comes up in this room too. There's a whole lot of context here (most of which I sadly can't really disclose) but if you have a user that's feeling ganged up on, and conversations about that going of the rails a few times...

the next message posted about it will probably be deleted with the advice that 'if you want to reach out, please do so privately'. Which is really sound advice here, as this room is busy and a lot of people tend to chime in without it being needed ;)
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I recommend crochet :)
> Crocheting is Relaxing
A core reason that many of us crochet is because it helps us to relax. One of the reasons crochet is so relaxing is because it allows us to achieve mindfulness, the state of being in which we are fully immersed in the present moment.
6:18 PM
I recommend spicy chocolate ice cream
...it's surprisingly good, although odd at first taste
or strawberry salads! Strawberries, ice cream, chocolate sprinkles/sauce and whipped cream :D
Top off with your favorite kind of strong alcoholic drink for good measure.
(er beat me to it lol) wow. that sounds amazing, it really does. with some super smoked scotch, it must be amazing
... "salad" ...
@Tinkeringbell Or hot chocolate. Hot chocolate after ice cream in the winter is great...
@Bart Isn't a salad just some stuff tossed into the same bowl? Then this is a salad too XD
6:20 PM
("Winter"... it was an overcast 90 degrees today, which is winter)
@user58 Hot chocolate with a shot of alcohol is indeed great in winter :D
I can't say I've ever had it, so I'll decline on giving an opinion on it ;)
@user58 this is the internet. We don't hold off on opinions for sensible reasons!
I like being sensible. :(
....doesn't mean I always succeed, but still.
in great news
Silent fireworks are properly becoming a thing here!\o/
6:29 PM
@djsmiley2k-CoW Are they really silent, or just quieter than normal?
I've heard about them, and I think I might like them too... but I've never actually seen it in action
did I miss anything pertinent today
A lot of crochet and two LOTR movies...
I'm sure all that crochet talk was a very threaded discussion
6:39 PM
You can hook in a pun on every topic, can't you.
it's my super power
(pretty crappy super power, but still)
Makes for a pretty boring yarn, to be honest.
It's kinda pointless.
...I sense more puns looming on the horizon.
6:44 PM
see I come here with a simple bad pun and you take that and put it to eleven
twelve, even
@user58 I do have a loom. Should finish the band that's on it sometime this winter.... I have to many UFO's lying around :/
UnFinished... ?
Objects ;)
you should make a red parrot
mid flight, like that one stock photo
Wouldn't copying a photo be a bit... repetitive?
6:46 PM
it would look amazing though
@mag please have an internet
(I should stop with the puns before it unravels and I get socked.)
7:37 PM
Anybody willing to lend some graphic-design skills and sensibilities for the cause? If so, please let me know. Thanks!
@Randal'Thor noted
@user58 I'm going to take that out of context
@Randal'Thor Rand alright, I'll be a bit too honest for my own sake. It's darn obvious you mean well, but I've seen people do this very same thing and, especially in this case, it escalates. It never achieves the goal you want to achieve. (CC @Félix) I think it's for the best those messages were trashed, although I would have wished to be able to phrase them as well as you did, if I hadn't this rude awakening sort of experience with this.
Sucks but sigh I don't see any less bad approaches to this.
And thanks for bringing up the subject again! ... :P
And that's all I have to say about that.
I'm a good grave digger
7:54 PM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I have/had the impression you couldn't accept a single user had a different view on events and your responses seemed aimed at continuing with whatever it takes to convince them they are wrong. I wanted that to stop immediately, right there and then. Kick-mute is then the only option I have available. You asked later why you were kicked which I answered. I consider the issue closed.
@LinkBerest yeah, after I reread it later I came to the same conclusion but then it was too late to waffle my message. Sorry about that.
Yes. It was, and is settled (for me) as other ROs came with exceedingly clear and fair comments. Seeing what Rand was saying made me comment further, as it suddenly was not simply isolated (I can take being intimated to stop talking about a thing, I did find it sub-optimal if it was some kind of habit). I do not wish to berate you on this, and thank you for the explanations.
8:07 PM
So what's actually the deal with sharing Site Analytics data? The Privileges page says not to: Since this is a restricted privilege, we'd prefer you not share the raw data. But I see a bunch of people sharing it. Is it actually just a preference that anyone can choose to override, or are there some kind of rules about it?
Q: Are other sites (besides MSE) growing inactive?

weakdnaEver since Everything That Happened with Stack Exchange, it's understandable that many users are hesitant to get re-involved on SE. It's understandable that many users are deleting their own accounts, out of protest, or out of frustration, or for many other reasons. But I have noticed that, at ...

@Alex there also is an CVS download. I consider that to be the raw data. The graph is fine-ish, I think
So there's no reason for me not to include the graphs in my answer?
@Alex My impression is it's a priv people even forget exists so there is a push to show people colorful numbers opposing that "we'd prefer you not share"
@Alex I see no reason why you couldn't share a screenshot of a graph in a limited time range to support your question or answer.
8:12 PM
I keep thinking of things as equilibria
I mean: I doubt many 25k-ers have printed those stats, framed them and put them on the wall to look at ...
Good reason I should never reach 25k on a reasonable timescale
Well, I edited the graphs in.
On that note, wouldn't it be better to have one answer covering all the sites rather than each user posting an answer with the one or two sites accessible to them?
Cool, Smokey does that now?
@M.A.R. On a Beta site you can get it at 5,000
8:23 PM
@Alex hmm, yeah. maybe. Ask @Glorfindel ...

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