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11:00 AM
@OrangeDog The ultimate corporate world: 911 does not accept friend requests but most operators do, and 911 is friends with operators. Get ready to pay $$$$ to your operator to contact 911
Thats the way OP finds these to report btw - go on any site, refresh a couple times
honestly if you're not using an ad blocker as any kind of internet browsing user, you're doing yourself a disservice and putting yourself at an unnecessary risk of cross-site tracking and feeding the ad corporations your interests for free
Also, could they not have a cohort of users "previewing" the ads
so my advice in any cases regarding any kinds of ads - install ad blockers
as in, toggle a flag somewhere, you get the "unverified" ads and a new ad queue + something for the carrot
11:01 AM
@SébastienRenauld no because they don't trust us. i thought the new coc made that clear
if nobody from that cohort flagged an ad for X views, then it goes on the main cohort
even spam is only removed in timely manner from SE because the users do it
but I doubt that would survive as an answer for long, so I'm just telling you here (it's gonna be our little secret :x)
most of the automation to get rid of spam is 100% user created and maintained
@StephanS they probably think seeing playboy models is good for us
11:02 AM
Also, it looks like you Ad team has stopped caring about obnoxious animated ads, @Shog9
@Magisch no cigar, tried that also, never got to the bad ads posted in MSE. But I do believe those who report of course.
@Sklivvz umm it's officially allowed now.
they did say animated ads are now considered OK
A: NSFW video and annoying animated advertising on Music SE

Terry Guyton-BradleyWe do intend to display animated ads on Stack Exchange. However, jarring and wiggling ads will be blocked and removed from our properties. Thank you for reporting.

Not getting ads at all on some sites on incognito
Hell yeah
if you look that the ads being posted they're on mobile
11:06 AM
Animated pampers ad on the workplace
I know work typically is a shitshow, but still
@SébastienRenauld hey I use pampers
I mean buy
for my toddler
The closest I have to a toddler is a cat
@SébastienRenauld potty trained?
@Shadow nice avatar btw
and about to be renamed to Houdini soon
she breaks out of and into stuff
she figured out how to unlock and open the front door
11:07 AM
we'll remember your name in the HALL OF FAME
@SébastienRenauld wow smart cat
@SébastienRenauld may I recommend a youtube channel? youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ/videos
Reminds me of the white mice in The Guide
@user1306322 thanks? Might be premature though, I'm in Grace Period
@user1306322 I know it
@Shadow I know and it sucks, but not obnoxious ones
11:10 AM
@Sklivvz any animation is obnoxious.
I would say a fade in is tolerable
If you allow one, you allow them all.
Of course, which is why they never did before
@Sklivvz well that's not really animation.
It's CSS effect.
That I can tolerate too, agree.
@Shadow tbh this one is more appropriate: youtube.com/channel/UCpLQXR116cLVUa1LRY8KS4w
11:13 AM
@SébastienRenauld hmm?
End Game instead of Game Over?
We had the locking/unlocking from the lockpicking lawyer, and now we have the cat
@Shadow You mean CSS the hacking language, you shouldn't mess with that, I hear people break into websites using that and inspect.
@Feeds This content is not available in your country.
it's crazy
11:15 AM
spotify link: Sorry, couldn't find that.
@Sklivvz Do you honestly think they have the human capacity to police an ad network?
@Magisch they claim they do
@Sklivvz lol
they claim lots of things most of which are lets say overly optimistic
I don't believe they care at all, but that would be just the old me being negative
11:18 AM
@Sklivvz nobody who claims that deserves trust lol
you can't expect good from a profit-oriented business, ever. Look around, look in the news -- environment issues, political conflicts, censorship, in some countries incarceration is even done for profit. It's a sad state of affairs but the world is slowly changing. Also don't actually go on any news sites today if you're not feeling well already :)
I'm wondering how much of how Wikipedia is governed can be adapted into a new, better version of SE network
@user1306322 not all "for profit" groups depend on millions of volunteers
it seems too complicated for me to understand at the moment but I'll keep reading
Firefox and its parent companies have a bit of a complicated relationship
I've said this before but the only reason, the one USP keeping costs down, their saving grace is the core community
some of them are for profit, some not, idk how it feels to the average contributor in that ecosystem
@Feeds it was eh
11:24 AM
@StephanS did you listen at 4x speed?
If they manage to completly scare it off or, to say it in more succinct words make us "remove our problematic selves", then a lot of reasons why SE works cease to function
@user1306322 2x
I like to leave myself some time to think over what is being said between the uhms
1 message moved to Trashcan
2 messages moved to Trashcan
hey I had starred those
want my stars back
11:26 AM
stars are overrated
GitHub stars, yes.
I mean, the whole of GitHub.
@user1306322 there wasn't really anything insightful to take in, it was just commentary
I like to gauge people's personal character by their speech patterns and word choices so it's of interest to me
@SearchAndResQ don't talk in this room, keep your number
@user1306322 Wikipedia does have some interesting approaches. For instance, they can issue topic bans and interaction bans (sort of like judicial restraining orders).
11:30 AM
wow that's a lot of days ago
Wikipedia's legal system is equivalent to a small nation-state
@DavidA I would not be against someone compiling an easy to digest overview of Wikipedia's systems as a meta discussion for all to consider :p
as a comparative with SE's of course, to stay on topic and have valid context
you know, to weigh pros and cons
are there any experienced wikipedians among our users here who can shed some light on how Wikipedia works?
I don't know how much has changed in the last 10 years...
well, here… we know what changed lol
This would be the entry-point
11:35 AM
wikipedia has recently started its own welcome wagon though
dat prominent "Assume good faith" in the right sidebox…
If an admin (of which there are various kinds) cannot resolve a dispute then there's a "supreme court" with a pretty formal process, tons of case law, etc.
@OrangeDog yet they recently banned and desysopped someone completly bypassing the arbcom process and dispute resolution processes because that someone ran afoul of the spouse of one of the board members
@Magisch I don't understand, these QnA sites do understand we all work for free.
There have even been "constitutional crises" when the "monarch" was found to have bypassed the "judiciary" and "legislature"
11:39 AM
some 40 admins resigned at wikipedia over it, and the community elected board members had to pitch a fit to cause the T&S team to agree their case files could be reviewed by arbcom
and all of arbcom had to threaten to resign in an open letter
@Magisch sounds fun, as I mentioned I've not been involved for that least ~10 years
does Wikipedia's contributions license allow for content reuse on other platforms? (with attribution to original editors/source)
@user1306322 it's CC-BY-SA 3.0, so yes
oh nice so it's the same as here
also this: meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/… is a strategy paper from one of the working groups that details a proposed pivot to a more top down decision model and the implementation of a code of conduct across all projects
meaning WP is going down exactly the same path :)
11:41 AM
In the end, everything was resolved somewhat amicably. The admin in question got unbanned but not reinstated as an admin (and a petition to the community to be reinstated got denied, so he has come to terms with the fact that his behavior was not up to standards).
Q: Stack Exchange and Stack Overflow have moved to CC BY-SA 4.0

Tim PostEffective today, all Subscriber Content on Stack Overflow and the Stack Exchange network will be available under the terms of version 4.0 of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike (CC BY-SA) license. This change follows our last Terms Of Service (ToS) update where we inadvertently introduce...

@DavidA nah. They relented now because their community threatend to tear itself apart. But none of the actual concerns were resolved
@OrangeDog I suppose my contributions since that announcement would be under 4.0, but prior ones are still 3.0, as I did not explicitly receive a relicensing request and therefore could not agree to it, which I wouldn't anyway.
@user1306322 that is exactly everyone's point that SE refuses to address
they're refusing to address many points
11:43 AM
@OrangeDog Was there ever any further response on that thread from Tim et. al.?
not yet, but keep an eye on thursday announcements :p
@Luuklag Tim's response is there. That's all.
@SébastienRenauld as I said in a Meta post, the Google Ads platform does indeed provide age and content category filtering. You just have to actually enable them.
Quickly eclipsed by the next debacle of course
also, how funny is that -- promised not to ship on Fridays anymore, but picked the next closest day that isn't on weekend? That's straight out of a comedy show
11:45 AM
All they need to do is track the license of each comment/post and ask people to bulk-relicense their stuff when logging in. Editing a post creates a derivative work which can be licensed under the new CC (upgrading it on the spot), but older revisions might be a problem.
@DavidA that means keeping the old license forever
@Sklivvz yes, that's how licensing works
For inactive users unfortunately. :-(
@DavidA Have the community user make trivial edits
@Luuklag like replace all pronouns?
11:47 AM
@OrangeDog Ah yeah I see, legal is "on-board". So they think they are in their rights.
@Luuklag no, they never said (that I can see) legal was "on-board"
@OrangeDog nah people have already voiced their concern about the network misrepresenting them by "editing words into their mouths" (I get that was a joke but it's something people think has merit, and there is this counter-argument to that)
we assume because answering the question would be an admission of fault, causing them to immediately lose the resulting lawsuits
If I make a derivative work of somebody's CC-BY-SA 3.0, surely I have to pick the same license (due to the license choice)
i.e. ShareAlike — If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you must distribute your contributions under the same license as the original.
11:50 AM
@SébastienRenauld actually you don't. You can pick a later version that isn't meaningfully different, like 4.0.
(I'm not that deep into Creative Commons legal lore so I can't comment on that)
@DavidA Are you sure? I can't find anything going either way on this one
Only pedants care about this stuff, but the SE userbade i
@SébastienRenauld "You may Distribute or Publicly Perform an Adaptation only under the terms of: (i) this License; (ii) a later version of this License with the same License Elements as this License; (iii) a Creative Commons jurisdiction license (either this or a later license version) that contains the same License Elements as this License (e.g., Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 US)); (iv) a Creative Commons Compatible License."
Only pedants care about this stuff, but the SE userbase is notoriously pedantic.
11:53 AM
@AndrasDeak Aw, that's touching
. . . stop poking
Q: Can I "upgrade" the version of CC BY-SA from 3.0 to 4.0 in my modification?

r3blWhat I'm doing: I'm adapting a work licensed under CC BY-SA 3.0 Unported license to a different language. I'm indicating the original work and its license. I'm indicating that I have made changes to it. Can I release my modified version of the license under CC BY-SA 4.0 or do I have to licens...

@DavidA Any sort of intelligent community on the internet trying to sound more profound than a dancing donkey is pedantic.
@DavidA all licensing becomes meaningless if companies are allowed to voilate them without repercussion
Except no-license licensing
they aren't allowed tho
11:56 AM
I know, right! But it makes more sense than this current situation.
they are currently being allowed to do so
I'm gonna be watching the news headlines for the inevitable mention of the network's name in the coming weeks
they're doing it right now and are not being stopped
criminals are allowed to do crimes, doesn't mean they won't be punished by law tho :p
it's a contract of sorts
do this crime - pay this much in money or freedom loss
is SE being punished by law right now?
11:57 AM
not today I think :D
and we can't exactly ask them for updates on when they're gonna get into legal trouble
oh boy if that can of worms gets opened
CC-WIKI does not really support software snippets for example...
so -- theoretically -- people should not be copying and pasting from Stack Oveflow
Q: The MIT License – Clarity on Using Code on Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange

samthebrand Update (Dec. 22, 2015): Thanks, everyone, for your feedback to this proposal. We're going to digest this one over the holidays and should have a follow-up announcement answering your questions and addressing your concerns after the new year. We won't be making any hurried decisions on this top...

N.B. the promised follow-up was then not implemented
licensing in general is a trash fire I like to avoid as much as possible anyways
"The changes proposed here have been delayed indefinitely"
everything not for hire I do is cc0 the "just use it and leave me alone" license
12:00 PM
I remember, I was working for SE at the time. Poor Sam.
I'm majorly looking forward to a brand new society and legal code being formed on Mars and Moon colonies in the future, it's gonna be interesting what they come up with. Perhaps it could be a "be nice" policy mediated by a reasonably intelligent AI
@Sklivvz waffles?? Why?
without all that crust of the real world legal systems which is in many places vague, unclear and can be played around
@user1306322 Trump will impose sanctions even on those colonies.
@Shadow No, Branding department
12:01 PM
@Shadow Sam Brand, not Sam Saffron
@M.A.R. oh
@Shadow idk if we'll still care about what he says in a year or so, much less at the time of colony foundations
@Sklivvz he still works for SE?
@user1306322 Based on past experience, the only way I see this blowing up in the media is someone creating a twitter storm or forwarding it to Vice, Vox, or Gizmodo.
@Shadow neither does
12:02 PM
@DavidA buzzfeed writers are already onto this
@user1306322 we will. He'll be elected again, I bet on that.
Possibly Breitbart, but who cares about them.
@Magisch isn't that an apache license? (I don't know much about licenses)
@Shadow ice cream?
cc0 is a public domain dedication
12:03 PM
@StephanS the CC stands for Creative Commons...
The Wikipedia story got covered in Buzzfeed, Breitbart, and Slate.
one of the breitbart editors is on wikipedia
thats why
I hope they leave this well enough alone, breitbart is a trash fire
@Magisch importantly, also with a liability waiver
@Magisch Tin Tin's dog?
ok I really gotta eat now, so later
12:05 PM
Wikipedia actually blocks links to Breitbart as an unreliable source.
Anything they do cover that's newsworthy should be picked up by someone else with better standards.
Well, I'm not an American or an economist, but they said he's made things better (whatever that means) with the exception of healthcare.
@user1306322 guten appetit
I'm not unaccustomed to people voting for someone that leaves with them with a full stomach even if they have "ideological differences"
Americans would do it. Iranians would do it. Plutoians would do it.
BTW, what a bunch of jerks, Plutoians.
12:12 PM
@M.A.R. they have a right to be jerks. We did demote their planet after all.
Don't ever go there.
@M.A.R. Hey, Plutoians are cool.
Q: I'm resigning as a Stack Overflow Comunity Elected Moderator

George StockerI'm resigning as a Stack Overflow Moderator. Thank you to everyone who has worked hard to make this Q&A site what it is. I'm resigning for three reasons: Stack Overflow Inc. has forgotten how to lead, how to persuade, and how to talk with the community. This has been a slow decline since 2014...

Surprised. For probably the second time since last month.
@PM2Ring They're xenophobic
I am more and more thankful every day that I do not have a public-facing job.
Same :|
12:16 PM
"Facing" shivers
@M.A.R. nah. 10000 rep.
@Shadow That's not fair
If I traveled back in time to, heck, even when Welcome Wagon started, and told you about the events of Sep 2019, would you have believed me?
That's a Crick question.
He asked it before discovering DNA.
@M.A.R. nope
No, really, he did ask it
Those who would, are now network wide suspended, probably.
12:19 PM
@M.A.R. depends, if you look at what Jeff and Joel were originally trying to make then yes I would have believed you. Because what's happening is in direct conflict with the platform's original intent
@Shadow Suspensions are way cooler than emulsions
We have been emulsified, brother.
That's so deep. Someone cool said that ^
Especially the "brother" part
@DavidA now there's two Magisches!
@DavidA funny thing, I dreamed Twitter oneboxes work yesterday
@rene and now I have Under Pressure stuck in my head
at least its an awesome song :)
12:25 PM
you're welcome
I don't understand why Twitter looks completely different when you're logged-in vs out
@M.A.R. actually - that's his last name
@M.A.R. if I'd ask you to call me "sister" instead.... what will you do? ;)
@Shadow okay brother Sister
@M.A.R. flags
12:27 PM
that face
Will miss that
Nah, I miss Will.
@DavidA 1447 followers. Not nearly enough.
We need more borderline. There's too much white and black in the world anymore.
flagged for racism
12:29 PM
@Shadow Yo sis.
what did I just come back to
@M.A.R. shit
Thats gonna leave a really hard to fill void
So, maybe we'd need ETAs for the next mod meta post on meta.SO after this.
@Magisch Unfortunately - that's the one place where I actually hope SO listens.
9 days
21 minutes
30 seconds
65 days
12:31 PM
@JourneymanGeek yo yo
@JourneymanGeek mama?
@JourneymanGeek He means meta.SO. 37 minutes
@M.A.R. I'm not - that last policy change on Meta.SO was rough......and then this happened
@LinkBerest its been a lot of rough changes and... lots of neglect
And well, basically throwing in breaking changes atop breaking changes
12:32 PM
@LinkBerest You're not resigning from Stack Overflow Community Elected Moderator?
yeah, but that was the only time I remember seeing the community at large arguing with the moderators or moderators public arguing with each other (and staff publicly arguing with moderators)
SOC 'EM. SOC 'EM all to hell.
<- not a moderator so no?...huh?
I need that line in a movie
@JourneymanGeek This is the point where they have to
I hope
12:34 PM
@Magisch I don't know
@Magisch why weren't any of the previous points?
granted, I'm only really active on like 4 sites but that was by far the worst case I saw (outside SE staff on this Meta)
@LinkBerest eh, While people are angry, it is literally a direct result of these events.
@DavidA I have a public facing job and its why I had to change my username and picture (I used to trust that being active on SE was a positive but not since last year)
10 years ago I would have used my full name. Not anymore.
12:37 PM
I've never seen posts with thousands of votes anywhere
@JourneymanGeek Stack Overflow
@JourneymanGeek yeah, I'm not saying it contributed. I'm saying that I'm not surprised just because of how tired all the mods must be (and esp. SO mods due to my involvement in that site)
@LinkBerest If you didn't get any of my messages they're safely ignorable
They're mostly placebo
@JourneymanGeek look, I still think there should be a badge for this
12:39 PM
@LinkBerest That's not the only reason they're tired though
@StephanS we do not shame people for stuff like this
People have bad days, weeks... sometimes months
@JourneymanGeek bad centuries, if you're a Cerberus
yeah, just this one did not surprise me (personally). There are a lot of reasons tiring people out and I just happened to be involved in that one (of many - I just remember it getting heated between users and moderators and that's rare for me to see)
12:41 PM
@LinkBerest we're only human
We lose our tempers sometimes, we argue
@JourneymanGeek woof?
George was one of the most vocal leaders in the SO community
But I'd say, pretty much every moderator now cares deeply for the network or humans
George gives his reasons and I respect them (not arguing that it was that or that it was even handled badly ---- just one more reason to be tired out really)
@PaulWhite he means figurative
12:41 PM
And ironically was everything I wish SE management would be
@PaulWhite wauzers have been known to hold grudges for over a decade
Meh, grudges are overrated
Now whether you keep a machine gun in your garage changes things
@JourneymanGeek you can read my full response if you want. I don't hold a grudge and still think we wanted the same thing in the end
(I have to keep my dog away from the cleaning supervisor if my dad is overseas cause of that one time he kept teasing my dog... he nearly got bit)
12:43 PM
Unless you have a grudge against machine guns
@LinkBerest is a dog joke
sigh its hard to tell with you sometimes ;) :)
@JourneymanGeek What if Berest is a wau- . . . that
Howzer. I keep thinking of Howzer
↑↓→← for your convenience
May I carry your bags?
12:45 PM
Hides pistol behind his back
pushing flowers into @M.A.R.'s pistol instead of bullets
bleh, soo much I've left unsaid over the past few weeks as I've watched the bridges to the community get systematically burned one by one, in effect with the CMs standing on them.
Wow, you just killed rene
This is what online friends are worth, people.
@Mgetz Shog can float
@M.A.R. that's a howitzer ;p
12:47 PM
@M.A.R. friends? this is a room full of chatbots
@M.A.R. but can he float in a river of toxic waste alone? There isn't enough whiskey in the world for that.
@M.A.R. with so much crap around now, he'll be overwhelmed by the smell alone though.
that's why we never leave
@M.A.R. fifth time's a charm
@JourneymanGeek oh right. Him
@Mgetz for all that's happened, I still think that the CMs are the one bright spark, and the only reason the network got to where it is, or could survive
12:48 PM
@M.A.R. R.I.P.
they're seriously underappreciated
@JourneymanGeek this is common knowledge by now
@JourneymanGeek They are, and yet they are being undermined actively. I personally wouldn't stick around for that.
12:49 PM
@JourneymanGeek some CMs are awesome but I've seen abuse coming from other CMs
@Mgetz They could probably fix most of the big stuff in 2-3 weeks with enough support. Give a good answer to the CC changes backed up by legal, handle the pissed off mods...
@Sklivvz eh, I kinda mean a few specific folks ;p
@Mgetz Alternative energy sources
You probably know who I exclude, vaguely
OMG who's Vaguely
The on the ground folks are good
12:50 PM
@JourneymanGeek yes but until they stop getting undermined, nothing they do is going to matter. We the community need to be able to know that they won't get undercut and that they have the authority to manage they community as appropriate.
Is it pronounced Wage-Lee or Wag-Lee?
@Mgetz and that's been happening steadily over quite a long time
and getting the company to see that feels impossible
The point stands, we the community might support our CMs. But if the CMs are trying to stand on ground that's constantly shifting it's a losing proposition for all involved.
Imagine pulling a rug under Shog
And it's downhill.
Hilarity ensues
@Mgetz I don't see a stratergy here though
12:53 PM
@M.A.R. unless it's the alpine slide I can't see that working
@JourneymanGeek I don't either; I see random kneejerk reactions that the CMs are being asked to cover for when they don't appear to have been involved
@Mgetz which is annoying too
Tim, George, and Monica are all commenting in that answer, but at least it's staying civil.
@Mgetz head physics
@DavidA they're all the grownups of the network ;p
I'd expect nothing less
@DavidA which?
12:54 PM
@DavidA They're all civil people, even when smacked in the face. That's admirable.
HEY. I can be a grownup
A: I'm resigning as a Stack Overflow Community Elected Moderator

Tim PostI'm really sorry to see you go. It's difficult for me to envision the office without you. I'm also sorry that you feel the way you do about the proposed procedures. They're still open for feedback, we've got the condensed text versions to clear up some ambiguities in the charts ready to go out ...

@DavidA +20/-27
It's not tim's fault that he has to defend the indefensible
hmm...wish I had more than bold or italics for emphasis on comments (tends to either look like shouting or just blend in too much) - way low priority I know but I just noticed it
12:56 PM
@DavidA That really shouldn't be downvoted IMO
@Mgetz Agreed.
In my opinion it should be DVed (I also commented on why)
@LinkBerest the whole UI is a mess
Downvotes are too often used to express "I don't like it."
It was never meant to be that long, or something you'd need to extract information from
12:57 PM
I try to at least upvote if something is useful on-balance.
@DavidA Metaaaaa . . .
> I hate how everything happened too. I've been literally sick about it for the last few weeks, but it is also a very rare anomaly when it comes to moderation here. It is very rare that a moderator is asked to step down for reasons other than vanishing
I sound like Journey
@JourneymanGeek Maybe true, the real issues run years back
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there was a procedure and they just swallowed the diamonds for dinner. What's different this time?
12:58 PM
@M.A.R. hmm
There's a precedure mod mods recalling another mod, so to speak
And if George can't summon the faith in the system to trust it going forward, who honestly can?
P.S. we have loads of proverbs in Persian and Turkish for "a remedy after someone has died"
@Magisch the ball is not in our court
@M.A.R. "A day late and a dollar short"?

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