Tavern on the Meta

12:04 AM

Anyway most of our work is done. Its up to the company to deal with what's left

12:51 AM

hopefully now that we've implemented this people can see how relatively useless (IMO) of a feature this is, because downvotes are statistically so rare. — Jeff Atwood Dec 1 '09 at 5:47

Was this true at the time?

Downvotes being statistically rare.

artem

@Alex Downvotes still are statistically rare, according to this query https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1063189/site-wide-upvotedownvote-ratio
only 3.1% of all votes are downvotes

If you set MinRep=15 and MinVotes=1 in that query, that is...

Aibobot

1:21 AM

@artem though, that wouldn't take into account deleted posts I suspect

and a good chunk of downvoted posts are deleted, or self deleted

artem

1:46 AM

@Aibobot @Aibobot I don't know, this answer does not mention if it counts votes on deleted posts or not, but since it's up- and down- votes cast by users, i'd be surprised if these numbers are updated when posts are deleted.

Aibobot

ah, true

hmm

should science it XD

Meta has lots of posts that are deleted, both by community and selfly

Alex

2:02 AM

@artem Ah, so the emphasis is on statistically rare.

Cœur

The new CoC will change all history links to theirstory links.

Aibobot

erf

that's kinda ....

In poor taste?

The problem with how people see a code of conduct is that its a restriction - shackles, or a beating stick meant to smack

Its supposed to be a shield to help protect folks and something aspirational to show how we should behave

I liked be nice

but some folks kinda need more specific examples of niceness

artem

@Alex as in, "statistically rare condition"? Then it was a hyperbole even then, I guess any user with 10 or more posts must have received a downvote here

Journeyman Geek

@artem sure

I think I average about 4 a week on meta

On SU less so

Alex

2:18 AM

@JourneymanGeek That's not so bad. On one per-site Meta, my "next badge tracker" shows me that the tag I am closest to getting a badge in is one in which I have a negative score.

Gryphon

@JourneymanGeek I've found people tend to be much much less stingy with their votes on meta then they are on most other sites.

Journeyman Geek

Yup

Gryphon

Both upvotes and dwonvotes.

Journeyman Geek

Also I'm a slightly popular user and do not care about rep

Cœur

If some people in the world disagree on "A president should be a moral leader", I can imagine that some people will also disagree on a similar concept of "A company should be an exemplary lead for its community". Yet, the two (company+community) would probably always benefit with showing nice diplomacy.

Aibobot

2:27 AM

@Cœur The company is people too

and well, sometimes folks can... uhm

What's a diplomatic way to put it

lose control of a situation

One thing I've learnt talking to people is... well

there are actual issues here that need to be addressed

Well and a few new ones

Cœur

@Aibobot Not everybody has voice publicly in a company: there are so called "Community Managers" (CM) and other official representatives.

Aibobot

Sure there are

But there's a great reason a significant number of CMs are ex-mods

(Caesar isn't bit - he brings in a wealth of experiences and a fresh perspective. He seems alright)

And what folks are working towards is trying to restore the special relationship that users and SE had

Stormblessed

2:48 AM

@Cœur that link’s dead

Cœur

@Stormblessed It may be geo-restricted? Try a different country. Or your privacy-filter is blocking it, that's also possible.

Aibobot

link works for me

@Cœur also, well, I find it difficult to imagine what happened here with mods kinda mobilising to ask for stuff to get looked at happening anywhere else

most places are just too large and fragmented for that kinda organisation, and we did have a large number of mods resigning or on strike

Stormblessed

3:09 AM

@Cœur it works now, at least when clicked from google?

It’s weird

The link from here works now

@Cœur “try a different country” is great tech advice XD

Journeyman Geek

3:27 AM

@Stormblessed I've abused tunnelbear for that

and my IPV6 tunnel is in HK so stuff gets confused

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

4:44 AM

!!/watch-number +919928525459

SmokeDetector

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog That pattern looks like it's already caught by Potentially bad keyword in body and Potentially bad keyword in answer; append -force if you really want to do that.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

!!/watch kenchandbibesy\.com

SmokeDetector

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog That pattern looks like it's already caught by Potentially bad keyword in body and Potentially bad keyword in answer; append -force if you really want to do that.

rene

5:28 AM

→ 18 messages moved to Chimney

Cœur

5:48 AM

@Stormblessed Well, it's 2019; all video streaming platforms are geo-restricted, many newspapers are geo-restricted, and even Stack Exchange JavaScript itself is blocked in my physical country: I'm basically switching from country to country all the time to stay on the internet. And using hyperboles to talk about it, as even writing "VPN" or "1984" on my keyboard is recorded and tracked.

rene

srsly? meta.stackexchange.com/review/low-quality-posts/67434

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@rene What?

rene

Exactly

Shadow

7:16 AM

@rene well that's technically NAA. Other same answers have been deleted by SE staff shortly after being posted.

So it's natural and expected that people unaware of meta culture will flag it.

rene

Okay, fair enough

Shadow

7:30 AM

No icecream! :D

user58

N- no... no ice cream? ;_;

Shadow

Niet

Nada

Nitch

(?)

rene

:(

Shadow

lol

@Bart can bring some, I saw he has in his freezer.

Bart

leaving

Shadow

7:34 AM

nooooooo

grabs @Bart back

rene

loot freezer

Shadow

No no it's trapped

watching sadly @rene falls into a pit while trying to loot @Bart's freezer

rene

What can be bad being trapped in a freezer with ice cream?

Shadow

^^

user58

@rene Well, freezing to death, for one thing

Bart

8:30 AM

@rene is Dutch. He doesn't freeze to death. He will just measure ice thickness and will organize an Elfstedentocht.

rene

And coordinate ice transplantation where needed ....

PM 2Ring

I don't know how to respond to this answer. I don't want to get into an argument about freedom of religion vs gender identity. But I am curious what the up & down vote counts are...

@PM2Ring +44/-35

Thanks, rene.

yw

8:43 AM

Although it could be flagged as unfriendly, I think it's important to not censor stuff like that. He avoided being outright nasty. And obviously a lot of members agree with or at least sympathize with his position.

Magisch

Considering Tim's Comment it's fair game to leave it up

I did downvote, though

PM 2Ring

Yeah, I didn't see the comments before Tim zapped them. But I have seen vile anti-LGBTQ+ comments during this fiasco, and they often gather upvotes before they're deleted.

There was even a "question" posted here on MSE by a member who primarily posts on science sites (where he has several thousand rep points) which was basically a proclamation that he henceforth refuses to interact with any trans members. It was deleted in under 10 minutes, but it was still very unpleasant while it lasted. — PM 2Ring 17 hours ago

Magisch

@PM2Ring on MSE? I can't find it in the 10k tools

when was this?

PM 2Ring

8:59 AM

@Magisch Yes, on MSE. Sorry, I don't remember the exact time, I think it was about 2 days ago, not long after Sara's "apology" post. It's hard to keep track, I've spent a lot of time reading MSE lately. ;) I do remember the user, though...

Journeyman Geek

9:44 AM

@PM2Ring if all else fails... Downvote

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek Do you know if any retractions to the press wrt. Monica are forthcoming?

Has this been discussed in private?

user58

Hasn't been discussed as far as I've seen.

I'm not the dog, though ;)

Bart

@PM2Ring it's one of those cases where I'd love to be able to answer an answer. Comments won't work ...

Magisch

Can you raise it

Andras Deak

@Magisch ha

PM 2Ring

9:54 AM

@Bart I suppose one could write a new question that addresses the issue, and link it to the answer. That sort of thing is sometimes done on Physics.SE. But how do you do it diplomatically? It could so easily degenerate into an "us vs them" war. At this stage of the game, I'd rather seek unity than to reinforce battle lines.

OTOH, I don't want religious people to feel they have the right to impose their morality or worldview on those who aren't followers of their religion. And on the gripping hand, I can appreciate that some of them don't feel comfortable having to deal with LGBTQ+ people.

Andras Deak

@PM2Ring you can't, it would be singling out the user and directing meta effect at them

it's as good as a declaration of war

Bringing up further arguments would induce further arguments. I think the best we can do is just downvote and ignore it. Some arguments have been made in comments, you won't be able to achieve more.

Bart

@PM2Ring I personally will keep any broader articulation of views to myself until there is an active post (not response) along those lines.

PM 2Ring

Right @AndrasDeak & @Bart. I think something needs to be said, but I don't know exactly what to say, or how to say it in such a way as to not inflame things.

Andras Deak

make sure it's not been said in comments already

I'm not sure something needs to be said; the point is that people can say what they want as long as it's not intentionally hurtful. If it's plain wrong we can just downvote it.

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch no

Nothing as far as I know

Bart

10:07 AM

@PM2Ring I know the feeling. I have plenty of ideas for a response, but comments won't do. I would just let it stand (with a downvote) as an example of a sentiment present in the community.

PM 2Ring

Agreed. We do need some visible examples of that.

Journeyman Geek

10:32 AM

@user58 I know only about as much as any other mod does. Sometimes less

I've had trouble keeping up the last few days 😁

duplode

@PM2Ring It might be worth noting that the comment by aniline which that answer gives thanks for and describes as "insightful" was flatly transphobic.

Magisch

I think everyone is underestimating just how many people on SO/SE are socially conservative

Not that I like it, but I do think that this will end like Twitter's CoC. Twitter can't afford to expel everybody who doesn't abide by it, because there are too many people who don't. I suspect the same will hold here.

PM 2Ring

10:57 AM

@duplode I figured it probably was, since it got deleted, but I guess Tim did a mass comment purge, so stuff that was relatively innocuous may have been deleted, too.

202324

@Magisch xenófobos y prejuiciosos

Andras Deak

@202324 I don't think that was an act of xenophobia

sloppiness definitely, but you can't really judge motivation or intent

CalvT

@JourneymanGeek can you tell me if this user has any deleted spam posts or similar? superuser.com/users/1098949/tom-harry

user194636

@CalvT wouldn't that be better asked in the Teachers' Lounge?

CalvT

@PaulWhite I'm not a mod :)

user194636

11:12 AM

Oh I thought I recognised the name, sorry.

CalvT

Np - you'd recognise me from Charcoal

user194636

Ah yeah that's probably it!

Journeyman Geek

11:25 AM

@CalvT no

But account looks as legit as a 3 dollar bill

CalvT

@JourneymanGeek Thanks. The SO account has a 3 dollar bill answer, but don't want to jump straight on them with red flags if it's just them not knowing how SO works

Journeyman Geek

I don't trust anyone with two first names

John Dvorak

@JourneymanGeek not even this guy?

Andras Deak

That's one first name. Mind the hyphen.

same as JFF

Aibobot

he is french

Andras Deak

11:35 AM

meaning you wouldn't trust him anyway? :P

Aibobot

they make good cheese

John Dvorak

French cheese may be good, but Swiss cheese is holey.

Bart

^

user58

16 hours ago, by user58

12 secs ago, by user58

7 hours ago, by user58

2 mins ago, by user58

5 hours ago, by user58

*rolls eyes*

Andras Deak

but Swiss chocolate <3

Magisch

11:37 AM

@user58 you're stealing Henders' style

Journeyman Geek

@user58 I did if worse

Bart

@AndrasDeak it's a problem ... it's a real problem.

Andras Deak

how so?

Bart

Every supermarket visit is a challenge

I shall not feed my addiction

Andras Deak

At least it's a self-regulating process. At one point you're broke and you can't buy anymore.

Bart

11:45 AM

I don't think I want to know what I look like by the time I run out of money on chocolate ...

user194636

Like Bart with a chocolate bar?

Magisch

@AndrasDeak I only like things with syntactic sugar in it

Andras Deak

well you eat weird things, that can't be helped

John Dvorak

@Magisch for a moment I thought you'd misspelled synthetic

Magisch

I eat ternary null coalescing operators

Andras Deak

11:48 AM

that's as weird as it gets

Magisch

no, it's ??

Mgetz

@user58 needs more quote-bell

Aibobot

@Bart - I work, inside an airport

so... thankfully I have self control

Andras Deak

factor of 3, oof

Bart

@Aibobot I would be found in a chocolate coma at the Martel store in our airport here ...

Cœur

12:07 PM

Journeyman Geek

The company is Stack Exchange Inc

Cœur

@JourneymanGeek So Stack Exchange Inc is calling itself "Stack Overflow" when they feel like it, or was there a subsequent name reversal in the past four years?

user194636

It's confusing and silly, but it is what it is.

user194636

> The Stack Overflow Network is a set of related Internet sites and other applications for questions and answers (also referred to herein as the “Network”), owned and operated by Stack Exchange, Inc. (“Stack Overflow”, “we” or “us”), a Delaware corporation.

user194636

stackoverflow.com/legal/terms-of-service/public

user58

12:16 PM

They're both legal names of the company, no?

user194636

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Andras Deak

The name of Stack Exchange Inc. is called Stack Overflow ;)

3

user194636

Glad we cleared that up

Cœur

@JourneymanGeek just want to know if five first names is fine or untrustable as well? Asking for a friend.

Journeyman Geek

12:28 PM

@Cœur untrust overflow

That or royalty

Cœur

@JourneymanGeek Well, I'm King of Heart, so I have connections.

Journeyman Geek

@Cœur also with no caps

@Cœur oh soooo

SO is apparently more marketable. Granted this was the folks who felt careers was a sure bet.

The company is still stack exchange

Andras Deak

Is careers not a profitable thing? I thought it was.

Magisch

12:43 PM

@AndrasDeak SO Is making negligible money for how big it is

Andras Deak

huh

Magisch

iirc stack exchange is profitable but not by that much, and its revenue is really low compared to how big so & se are

user194636

documentation

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak it apparently did badly enough that the company laid off folks

Good folks too

Andy

@AndrasDeak As a user of careers (on both sides), I have complaints about it. As someone seeking a job, it's not horrible. My biggest complaint is that there are jobs posted both onsite and offsite so it's a confusing mess of "what happens next" - and the answer is "it depends on how you submitted the application".

As a user hunting for new employees, I dislike that I always have to talk to a sales person. Always. There is so much that can't be done without their input.

Andras Deak

12:53 PM

I see, thanks

Journeyman Geek

@Andy simple problem? It's a hugely contested market

Andy

However, SO has provided higher quality recruits than places like GitHub, Glassdoor, LinkedIn and a few others I can't remember off hand, so it's something we suck up and grumble about internally...constantly.

Journeyman Geek

You are competing with everyone and their cat

Andy

I'm pretty sure I've lost to a cat before

Journeyman Geek

Well that's typically been SE's selling point

Andy

12:56 PM

I agree. However, we've been looking at other options more recently simply because that delay to talk to sales is so annoying.

So, while we may eventually go to them, it's really not the first stop. There are just roadblocks.

Magisch

@Andy You hire through SO Careers?

Andy

For example, right now we have two job slots on SO. I'm hiring for 9 different job titles. If I want to add a third slot, I need to reach out to sales, wait for them to get back to me, jump through the hoops to get that slot added. Oooor...I go over to Glassdoor and post multiple jobs without talking to anyone. That's what we're doing right now

@Magisch Yeah

Magisch

How expensive is listing there compared to glassdoor and the like?

Andy

Two postings on SO vs 5 on Glassdoor right now :)

I don't have Glassdoor's pricing available right now. I can talk to a coworker and get that though and give you a true comparison

She won't be up for about 3 hours though.

Bart

Didn't SO use a "for the year" pricing of around 6k?

Magisch

1:01 PM

we list on glassdoor and similar sites on occasion

Andy

@Bart Just a tad less than that, yes

Magisch

most of the applicants we get are unqualified and low effort

Bart

@Andy some time ago I suggested we look into that for hires here ... that was quickly abandoned.

Andy

Glassdoor is low effort, but high volume.

@Bart You need some of the VC money :)

Magisch

iirc the places we list we pay like 20 quid a month or something like that

Andy

1:04 PM

I know one of the other teams used GitHub's job posting board. I don't know that price either, but they said they were really disappointed in the results that produced.

SO knows they have the quality. My biggest complaint is the process. I want to be able to do more without talking to someone.

Magisch

Might be worth for some of our projects. Finding someone with experience in a very niche programming language and able to get and hold a clearance is hard as hell

Anne Daunted

1:23 PM

The comments under this answer were deleted. Wished I could say that I'm surprised by this.

Shadow

@AnneDaunted why? What was different from comments under other answers?

kush

Is there a way to ask management to resign so it doesn't look like a personal attack?

Journeyman Geek

1:41 PM

No

And tbh - that might work against sorting stuff out

Magisch

@kush not in this chat

user194636

ah the good old days of staff moderating meta.se

Shadow

@PaulWhite they never did

Magisch

not like they have much of a choice. There's merely 1 active MSE mod left right now

and I don't reckon they'll appoint new ones at this moment.

user194636

exactly

Shadow

1:45 PM

OT questions were always closed and deleted by ordinary high rep users.

user194636

so who handled non-red flags then

Shadow

Spam deleted by 6 flags, etc.

user194636

anyway don't spoil my snark

Andras Deak

@kush no

Shadow

@PaulWhite from my experience, it took 6-8 weeks, literally. So I stopped casting custom flags, after a month it's usually not relevant anymore.

Magisch

1:46 PM

@PaulWhite broadly nobody. Some of them sat for months

Shadow

@PaulWhite SE staff did (CM probably) but reallllly slowly.

user194636

that makes sense eh

Shadow

Asking for status tag addition were always ignored, I might still have such request pending.

Let me check...

Magisch

we were so happy when we got mods. And now they're mostly gone :/

user194636

they might be back

user194636

1:48 PM

JG is fidgetty already

Shadow

@PaulWhite parrot is gone though

user194636

I thought she was just taking a wee break?

user194636

Hard to keep up

Shadow

@PaulWhite no idea she usually came here even while in vacation

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite I'm still thinking about it

kush

1:57 PM

Asking someone to resign is NOT a personal attack.

Journeyman Geek

@kush uhm

We don't agree on very much in this room...

and I've not seen one person say otherwise

kush

I've said it.

Magisch

@kush I'm unwilling to have that discussion in this room

If you want to clamor for staff members to resign, do it elsewhere

202324

@kush asking someone to resign is a personal attack. Change my mind elsewhere.

kush

How can I change your mind if I can't talk about it?

202324

2:00 PM

Elsewhere.

Journeyman Geek

@kush We might disagree with decisions taken by someone

user194636

@Shadow I saw she had returned to her home site chat, that's all I know

Journeyman Geek

but we're better than that.

user194636

does seem like a discussion that couldn't possibly go anywhere good

Journeyman Geek

We're not out for blood. We're asking for things to be made right for one of the members of our community

5

kush

2:02 PM

But I never said they are a bad person.

Journeyman Geek

@kush drop it please.

kush

I didn't say they should go to prison.

Journeyman Geek

Drop it. Please.

kush

It is up to them to do or not do.

202324

Ready to flag.

user194636

2:03 PM

Load the flag cannon!

Journeyman Geek

Is ok.

There's no particular need for it at this moment

user194636

unloads flag cannon

kush

sigh

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite couple of things - while folks have been absolutely lovely...

I want to see how this pans out

Rubiksmoose

@PaulWhite I definitely pictured this as a T-shirt cannon FWIW.

Journeyman Geek

2:07 PM

If things get really bad, I'd consider it

But only to shield folks

user194636

@Rubiksmoose do not give away the secrets of the flag cannon!

Rubiksmoose

@PaulWhite Dangit! [hides in corner]

user194636

gosh there's a really old Elton John video playing on MTV Classic

user194636

he has hair!

Rubiksmoose

Oh wow! I actually saw Elton live, he was great.

Machavity

2:09 PM

@PaulWhite A clockwork flag cannon? What?

user194636

this room is pleasantly silly at times

Rubiksmoose

Silly is good. This place could do with some more silly recently.

202324

This room is where fun is. The rest is where reputation is.

user58

We've got a fun reputation, though.

Machavity

No, this room is for sober discussions about Meta. But Meta... tis a silly place

Journeyman Geek

2:17 PM

Sober?

user58

It's a Tavern, it's not going to be sober.

Journeyman Geek

In that case, absolutely stay away from those mason jars.

They're Shog's very peculiar...

Machavity

I always wondered what the 9 jars on the wall were

Rubiksmoose

Well there used to be more!

♪ knock one down, pass it around, 8 of Shog's mason jars left on the wall ♪

Journeyman Geek

Also one hell of a hangover. And I ain't bitin ya.

kush

2:26 PM

when I think of tavern, I think of witcher the video game

Rubiksmoose

@kush Anyone up for some Gwent?

kush

I never actually learned how to play :(

it never ran particularly well on my Lenovo Ideapad Y510p because GT750M in SLI is still GT750M

Machavity

@kush When I think of Witcher I weep for the English language

Rubiksmoose

@kush Yeah I can see how that didn't run terribly well.

kush

TIL witch (verb) means cast an evil spell

"Mrs. Mucharski had somehow witched the house"

I remember back around 2002? I had an application in my system tray in windows called wordnet or something and I would press some keyboard combination and this window would pop up and I'd look up the dictionary. I was so amazed that an entire dictionary fit in my computer.

Machavity

2:43 PM

@kush Nowadays, we fit the entire Internet in the palm of our hand. And then we use it to merely find out who is currently married to J-Lo

Gryphon

@Machavity In our defense, that's now changing on timescales lower than a planck time. Which violates our current understanding of physics, making it rather interesting from a science perspective.

kush

3:12 PM

.

Journeyman Geek

→ 21 messages moved to Chimney

kush

wait that's a thing? you move smoke detector messages to the chimney? :D

Journeyman Geek

Uhm, yes

Smoke in the trashcan would be bad