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9:00 AM
@dim well it could be a copyright problem, it could be a sensitivity problem, I'm not sure these all have the same answer
 
user194636
@dim Generally speaking there's a lot of latitude given for people's profiles, and to a slightly lesser extent avatars. If you genuinely find it grossly offensive, raise a custom flag on one of the user's posts and explain your reasoning for a moderator to consider.
 
user194636
Separately, we don't enforce copyright. That's an issue for the copyright holder to take up with SE.
 
I'm only familiar some of his famous drug dealing activities
 
user351483
Content and attitude is generally more important than profile pictures.
 
user194636
Pictures of e.g. Hitler are generally deemed offensive enough to remove as I understand
 
user194636
9:01 AM
Not something that comes up a lot
 
dim
@Paul I'm not, myself, offended by many things. I just find this strange and I thought maybe there was some rules about it. But I didn't even think of copyright issues.
 
@Snow especially for a space probe
 
chx
@JourneymanGeek @Shadow what I was very surprised at is how David Fullerton whom was more known for being the engineering lead but is also president now it also community team lead
 
user194636
@dim Yeah I mentioned copyright because @Emilie mentioned it.
 
@chx he isn't community lead
 
9:03 AM
We get the occasional offensive user name too
 
user194636
@dim As I say, we're generally pretty permissive on avatars. Actual flags will be handled by a human making a judgement call.
 
@JourneymanGeek are cats avatars allowed? =^•^=
 
AFAIK, Tim Post and hairboat are actively in charge of the Community Team, which includes the community-facing CMs and the ones in a support position. This could be outdated information, though.
 
Not if the cat holds a copyright over its photo
 
user194636
38
A: As a moderator, how do I handle a potentially inappropriate profile picture?

Tim PostOur stance on this is simple, but quite subjective. It's first worth reiterating that within reason, a user's profile page is their own domain. Given that: We like people being creative Profile pages aren't the most visible thing on the site To some users, their own profile is often the most v...

 
9:06 AM
@JohnDvorak don't you drag us into the monkey selfie copyright debacle again.
 
chx
@JourneymanGeek "I’m David Fullerton, Stack Overflow’s CTO, responsible for the product, engineering, and community teams."
 
@Bart But... it's the only tolerable selfie
 
True
 
@chx so overall boss person
 
chx
@JourneymanGeek that'd be the CEO. dev.to/stackpodcast/podcast-69--its-too-rainy-for-a-parade this podcast describes him (himself?) " Lord High King of Nerds David Fullerton" which roughly aligns with what a CTO usually is.
 
user194636
9:11 AM
Well that's a little presumptious
 
@chx there's also marketing
But overall boss person over the folks involved
And if you think about it
someone not directly in the situation, in the chain of command,
which is kinda a good idea here
 
Khalid El Khatib on October 12, 2018

It’s been an exciting 2018 for Stack Overflow. In late spring, we launched our Welcome Wagon initiative to make the network more welcoming. In May, we shipped Stack Overflow for Teams and made our knowledge-sharing platform accessible to teams of any size. And September marked our 10th anniversary, which celebrated the 25 million answers to 16 million questions that have been viewed 12.3 billion times by developers.

We’ve grown the ways that we serve developers, and we’re growing our Executive team to support these initiatives as well our ever-expanding community. The team has two new members, and one of our long-time executives has a new role. …

Doesn't state exactly what David's responsibilities are, but makes it clear it's more management.
@202324 Note that this is from a year ago.
 
user194636
Who writes their blog post titles
 
@PaulWhite Yeah, "Exciting Leadership Announcements" is probably the least exciting title ever.
 
user194636
Five Leadership Changes You Won't Believe
 
9:21 AM
@user58 you just nerdsniped me
 
chx
Well, if they have an entire VP of Marketing and Communications then why doesn't do... the communicating job
I don't understand anything
but then again, I am just lowly Drupal developer. What do I know.
 
user206222
I say this without any cynicism -- it's probably at least in part an optics thing. It appears way better to get a reply from someone Higher Up than the level you complained to.
 
Talking to people is hard
(sorry sending myself a link)
 
user206222
That's not really a criticism, frankly it's kind of expected. I can't imagine it's like he just... came up with that, on a Sunday, and decided to post it.
 
@Aza I doubt
(this is JMG's sock)
 
dim
9:29 AM
@Paul Nice meta post, which answers my question, except for one last detail: I have no idea, in my specific example, if such an avatar should be considered offensive, insulting or would create disruption. Well, I should probably not bother much, I'll leave that alone.
 
user206222
@Aibobot ::nodnod::
 
user206222
@Aibobot Which part do you doubt? I am curious
 
@JourneymanGeek Just don't stop in the middle of the street.
 
user194636
@dim If you want my opinion, I would say not.
 
I think this was probably a coordinated effort by the whole community team and several others. And David just posted it because getting a response from the CTO looks better then another from the person you complained to/about
 
9:31 AM
David's also President of SO, not just CTO.
 
user206222
^ that's what I mean. I'm not trying to undermine the statement in any way, I just expected it to be from someone higher on the totem pole. So my expectation was met.
 
@Aza well that and a few people worked on it
 
user206222
@Aibobot Yeah, s'what I'm sayin' :)
 
and that it was written on a sunday
I don't want to sound presumptious or anything
 
user194636
@Magisch Who knows. It is very different in content and tone though so something changed.
 
9:32 AM
but that felt like the smart thing to do
pick someone high up and respected, not involved...
Divid has a certain amount of respect amougst the users with a little more tenure too
 
user206222
Yeah, it's super fair to do
 
@Aibobot apparently not enough to spell his name right though ... :p
 
user194636
One could speculate all sorts of interesting things. CMs drafting a letter to their bosses?
 
@PaulWhite more likely stuff going on in chatrooms
I get the idea that SE employees are chatty
 
user194636
No way to know. It has been a crazy time for all.
 
9:34 AM
Are y'all saying that it's just yet another ruse to placate the masses until the next inevitable drama?
 
user194636
I don't feel confident predicting anything any more.
 
user194636
@JohnDvorak I'm not. Seems genuine to me, but the next steps are fundamentally difficult. No way around that.
 
user194636
Well except maybe kicking the whole can way down the road.
 
user206222
@JohnDvorak I don't think it's a "ruse," I think the message is quite genuine about its intent to placate. The question is whether they have the tools in place to prevent another incident.
 
user206222
It's essentially them going, "shhhshshshsh. we know. give us a hot sec."
 
user194636
9:36 AM
Society itself is very divided over issues like these. No reason to expect SE & community will be much different.
 
user194636
It is nice to enjoy a bit of calm though for sure.
 
user194636
Eye of the storm as it may be.
 
It's an actual apology, and I'm willing to take it in good faith
 
I don't think SE is engaged in some shadowy scheme to continue annoying us all
they're trying to make the best out of a difficult and trying situation, yes some of which was caused by their own blunders, but still.
 
user206222
There are real questions as to whether the Stack's systems are set up to handle these issues. Do elections always support a warm and welcoming site? Does voting? How about closing questions? But... I don't know if now's the time to press them. Just questions to be aware of, and keep an eye on. For now, they say they want to do work to help, so... patiently seeing what happens is totally reasonable.
 
9:49 AM
@Aza Some stuff feels creaking at the seams
Its a matter of scale I guess
 
This comment doesn't sit right with me: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334551/…
I want to flag as unkind but unsure
 
I'd leave it
 
@Magisch meh, let it be I'd say. It's a viewpoint many will have no matter how often SO will say otherwise.
 
@JourneymanGeek he says it himself: "I’m David Fullerton, Stack Overflow’s CTO, responsible for the product, engineering, and community teams."
 
I suspect his theory is plausible
 
9:55 AM
Maybe not directly, this is Tim Post, but he's responsible for it.
 
@Shadow he is Sara and Tim's boss
 
Yep
High rank officer is responsible for anyone below.
 
There's a somewhat humorous aspect of "Nah, this won't involve person X, because we still like person X. Surely they keep quiet because they have to" to a lot of the comments over the past week.
 
I think this is just humans wanting to see patterns where there are none
it is plausible this was just bungled and not malicious
 
That's my view of it, yes.
 
user194636
9:58 AM
Seems like fair comment to me.
 
It is quite plausible there was no actual malice or even disrespect intended from anybody.
 
"We're doing a good thing. Let's do the good thing. We all agree on the good thing, right? Let's go ahead with the ... wait ... who brought the excrement and why is there a fan in here?"
 
@PaulWhite +1 ditto
 
user194636
Deliberate malice and disrespect is less common than day to day experience on some SE sites might suggest.
 
Kind of like something I'd say myself, in different way/words.
 
user194636
10:00 AM
Yes. I'm not saying I agree with it, but it is a legitimate point of view, and not overly unkind.
 
user194636
Neither am I saying I disagree.
 
user206222
@Aibobot Yeah, I feel it too, but when have SE's systems not been at odds with its human aims? In one sense, it's something we just have to live with. In another... we can ask for something better.
 
And yet there have been quite a few accusations of disrespect from the company toward LGBT moderators
 
@Bart "Because you signed on those forms, don't you remember? Here, form #1AG51 asks to bring a fan, and form #1AG38 says we need 150kg of excrement brought here ASAP."
 
user194636
@JohnDvorak Accusations have not been in short supply it is true
 
user194636
10:02 AM
I accuse Smokey of making poor coffee
 
user194636
What do you think about that
 
Is he single again?
!!/coffee one
 
@Shadow brews a cup of Latte for @one
 
user194636
!!/location
 
@PaulWhite teward/Supergate
 
10:02 AM
Good.
Two rogue Smokeys poofed away.
 
user194636
Supergate sounds high-tech
 
@PaulWhite you better be careful. There's a reason for the expression "gone up in Smoke" ...
 
To Oblivion?
 
user194636
vanishes
 
On the upside, robots are defenseless and hurling all blame on them makes the problem go away... On the other... eh. Let's not.
 
10:04 AM
adding @John to Smokey black list to show that robot can bite
;)
 
@PaulWhite And let that be a lesson to everyone else.
3
 
heheh
 
@Aza well - no matter how hard you try, its hard to put yourself in the situation of someone else
And that's a really useful aspect of diversity
and you often find people open up to different people. You don't have to see it all
And work from there
We can't cover all the sorts of different folks sadly
but enough and we can make a start
 
It's also hard to put in oneself's shoes if any attempt at fruitful discussion devolves into an all-out war.
 
@JohnDvorak oh, true
but that's another problem to be solved
Or more precisely, to put good ideas and intentions into practice based on why they failed
 
user206222
10:19 AM
@Aibobot I feel like, this is one of the biggest misconceptions about what activism means, honestly. And it's a part of why a lot of people push back on activism with, "I don't get it."
 
@JohnDvorak The social dynamics of moderators is... complex
@Aza but people don't get it
I mean, if people got it, there would be no issue
 
user206222
Right, that's the problem, but I don't think in the way you think. One sec.
 
exactly
That's kinda what I mean. We don't think alike
we don't have similar world views
 
user206222
You don't need to put yourself in someone else's shoes. That's... not a thing you should ever have to do, as a prerequisite for support. And truthfully, if you are not in a specific group, you are, not capable of living that group's experience. Which leaves a lot of popular activism in a conundrum: how are we supposed to figure out what to do, if we can't see it ourselves?
 
@Aza I see it another way - that folks are more likely to reach out to someone they see as sympathetic or an ally or more like themselves
Cause I'm feeling like one of the failures here is how much everyone missed
 
10:23 AM
@Aza I feel like just having a civil discussion would go a long way.
 
If folks spoke up, no one listened.
If they didn't, well
 
user206222
I think that's close, but still not quite it. The kinds of people that minoritized groups are drawn to are, frankly... just people who listen, and act by that.
 
I don't pretend to be an expert XD
 
user206222
@JohnDvorak 'Civility' is in the eye of the beholder, and has deep problems. I wrote about it on my resignation.
 
Never underestimate the power of just listening while someone rambles.
 
10:23 AM
^
If this had gone by for another week
I probably would have messaged a friend outside the SE community
and confused her for an entire hour or two
 
user194636
@user58 You make it sound like a person's time is unlimited and for free.
 
user194636
My time is valuable. I don't have enough of it to spare listening to everyone that has an agenda.
 
user206222
This is an answer that makes a lot of people deeply uncomfortable, because it means giving up your choice to challenge someone else. It means just, believing what minoritized people say, and acting on it wholeheartedly, without asking for evidence, proof, forcing a justification... and that's not comfortable, for a lot of people. A lot of people feel like they have a right to exert those challenges.
 
user206222
@Aibobot You've been lucky, then.
 
@Aza no, she dodged a bullet XD
 
user206222
10:26 AM
@Aza (This is also the problem with civility. I can have a civil discussion, but there are certain questions people can ask me that I just can't answer honestly and civilly. There's no truthful, "civil" answer to be offered.)
 
user206222
@Aibobot That's fair :P
 
@Aza When I talk to people it's because I want to know what they think, not because I want to hurt them
 
@Aza though - if you're coming into a conversation on the defensive, assuming that you need to be non civil...
wouldn't that be a self fulfilling prophacy?
they might just be ignorant
 
user206222
@JohnDvorak What I'm going for is: having a conversation like that is secondary. If I say, for example, that I need you to address me a certain way, then we're not really having a conversation until you do. The act of belief is primary, and comes before any conversation we could have.
 
There's also something to be said for people being worn out by constantly having to defend themselves. After a while, it can get really hard to keep civil when you're explaining for the hundredth time that no, I'm not ruining my life, I'm fixing it, to people who just don't get it.
 
10:31 AM
@Aza and that's probably kinda part of having a civil chat
 
user206222
@Aibobot If it's your definition of civil, that's good! But it's not in most people's.
 
@Aza I'm probably the worst person to have this chat with lol
 
user206222
Most people want me to answer: why? why should I make this change for you? this is a burden. will you be upset if I don't?
 
@JohnDvorak I think about lunch. See? You don't even have to ask. ;)
 
user206222
@Aibobot I think you're a perfectly fine person to chat with about this stuff!
 
10:32 AM
I try to remember. Sometimes I forget... ;p
@Aza uhm, I have a different set of experiences
Have a bunch of friends who're trans
And yanno? Its clearly important to them to be allowed to be who they really are, and I'd be damned if I let something silly get in the way of that.
 
user206222
@JohnDvorak It's not really an assumption. I can try to be as civil as I'd like, but ultimately if I want to fulfill the Idea Of Civility, at some point I'm going to have to make a compromise. If someone presses me, do I really want to force the idea that, no, you need to be using my actual name before we can have a conversation? At some point, that becomes uncivil. At some point, it becomes clear I am making a demand, that our conversation is predicated on this. Then I'm uncompromising, rude...
 
And that's a thing.
Putting the happiness of those around me over my occational inability to understand certain things ;p
 
user206222
We're doing it right now -- no harsh judgement on you. I've said that, at some point, people read those precursors as uncivil. You have said something that, while not a direct contradiction, is at odds with that. And now I am explaining why... which is tiring. Or I could just say "yes it is," which would be rude. Or I could quietly leave.
 
@Aza In a sense, part of why it makes so many people uncomfortable is that they brush up against the worst of humanity time and time again on the 'web, and the abuse makes you defensive. Every change or situation, you only see how people who like to could twist it to hurt you. You've been burned so many times - why not now? Getting over it is hard and takes a while
 
user206222
@Magisch I don't spend a whole lot of time in these spaces, on the web. Most of my experience is in person, and it happens just as much in meatspace, if not more. The worst of humanity isn't localized to the internet.
 
10:39 AM
Probably true, although most people who really just like to hurt no matter what that I've known were on the web, where anonymity shields them
 
@Magisch well, you can kinda leave a space on the web
 
@Aza I am shamelessly stealing and using "meatspace" in my conversations from now on.
 
user206222
While that's true, practically speaking, no one on the internet can touch me in a way I'm not exposing myself to by choosing to take up space, here.
 
@Magisch You're also not in quite the same position, so you won't get the same things.
 
its kinda hard to block people in meatspace
 
10:39 AM
Are you certain they are trying to hurt you? Because I, for one, certainly am not!
 
user206222
@Bart It's a good word! I'm real fond of it, I try to drop it in anytime it won't sound like an innuendo. Which is... less often than you'd think.
 
@JohnDvorak we're not always aware of the hurt we cause
 
I still flinch every time someone makes a hand movement in my direction, because there used to be a guy at school who just loved causing me panic attacks
 
or the potential cause of hurt we cause
 
No matter how much I fight it that flinch never goes fully away
 
10:40 AM
@Aza I wonder if its one of those things that either got picked up from me, or from similar sources
I say meatspace a lot ;p
 
@Aibobot Knowing what hurts the other person goes a long way of succeeding at not hurting them.
 
Also, if y'all haven't already, I'd advise reading this... might shed some light on what @Aza's talking about here.
 
user206222
@JohnDvorak I'm gonna step back again to the meta-level, and ask a higher level question. Without me having answered your question, do you, right now, believe me when I say they are trying to hurt me?
 
@JohnDvorak but sometimes showing the hurt also hurts
So you just stop digging, have a little faith, and listen as much as you ask
 
user206222
Is your aim to pull evidence from me, to bring me to justify? Or, is your aim to get me to elaborate? And if I can produce no evidence -- or simply decide not to -- will you be less inclined to believe me?
 
10:43 AM
I'm always willing to listen
 
@Aza My instinct is curiocity
But yanno. I do realise that there's a thin line between being curious and being... insufferably annoying
So there's always stuff I want to ask, but I try not to pry
 
@Aza If someone makes a claim but cannot provide evidence, that does tend to make me less willing to believe them in general. With no evidence, it comes down solely to how much I know and trust the person.
 
And one person just being curious can be insufferably annoying to someone who had people using "curiosity" as a tactic to attack and silence them say a couple dozen times.
 
user206222
@JourneymanGeek I also know you, which makes a big difference. I know the questions you ask come from a place of sincerity, because you've shown that sincerity in the past. But it's also nice to not have to answer questions ;)
 
user206222
@Gryphon There you go, then. That's the process by which belief in minoritized groups is deconstructed. Someone asks a question: we must reply, and we must reply well, lest we be more likely to be disbelieved.
 
10:45 AM
Do you believe me when I say I don't want to hurt you?
 
@Gryphon There's a corollary to that
 
@Aza at the same time, you don't. And I don't think you owe me any answers
 
@Magisch Yes, if evidence is provided, I will believe you (and that point it's not really belief, it's basic recognition of facts).
 
user206222
@JohnDvorak I would like to know your thoughts first, as to whether you believe me when I say they frequently intend to cause harm, and then I will come back to this question.
 
@JohnDvorak if someone said could you hurt them, would you believe?
 
10:47 AM
@Gryphon The fact -> proof model only works as long as it's not weaponized. It's simply not really possible for people of marginalized groups to keep defending them. They're already a minority. They already have loads of people using the socratic method as a stick to beat them with. At some point you stop trying and stop talking about your experiences
 
user206222
@JourneymanGeek You are in an unusual (and, sincerely, appreciated) position.
 
for the simple and undeniable truth that explaining that a hundred times is draining your energy, if nothing else.
 
@Aza I'm willing to believe that.
 
@Magisch Yes, but vague allegations against people can also be weaponized. See: what's currently happening with Monica's situation.
 
right. Thats entirely not the fault of people who may or may not have expressed to have been hurt by her actions though
And you can't put that on them
 
user194636
10:50 AM
It's not entirely the fault of anyone
 
user206222
@JohnDvorak Would you believe me less if I declined to answer your question, about why I believe that they are intending to harm me (and people like me)?
 
@Magisch I wouldn't blame anyone in particular
 
Wait what we talk about now?
 
It was a chaotic, angry mess.
 
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was referring to SE's vague accusations of "violations of inclusivity and diversity".
 
10:51 AM
If we're going to blame people, we're going to go down the same slippery slope that we were in before
 
user206222
I would rather not talk about Monica, right now, if that's all right.
 
@Aza fine by me
 
I believe everyone involved had good intent
@Aza sorry about that
 
@Aibobot we're still rolling down the slope, David's post is just a handle to hold while falling, but very unstable.
 
My apologies, I brought her up. I'll stop now.
 
10:52 AM
@Shadow it is a start
 
user206222
Thanks, @Gryphon.
 
Its not just one thing though
 
@Aibobot exactly
 
But realising its a problem is always a start
 
Need a stable bridge built... still very far from there.
 
10:53 AM
I think there's never a good reason to flat out disbelieve someone describing their experiences.
 
I feel like my honesty is being questioned right now.
 
@Magisch Well sometimes
 
There may be a limit to assistance that can be provided lacking specificity, but saying "I don't believe you" to someone that is hurting is never okay.
 
@Magisch When it's clearly flat-out trollery, there can be an exception to this.
 
@Gryphon define "clearly"
 
user206222
10:54 AM
@JohnDvorak I am, but it's a question I'd sincerely like to know the answer to. People have been questioning my honesty aggressively for the last two weeks, my empathy for this is both high and low ;)
 
user194636
@JohnDvorak Why do think that? If you don't mind explaining, that is.
 
When is it clear? When it isn't? Almost impossible to know for 100% sure.
 
@Aza over what? I'm more upset whatever it was got so far.
 
user206222
If it doesn't feel comfortable... that's good! Hang onto that feeling -- that's how I feel, every time I'm challenged on these topics.
 
I don't think taking the actions you took - like quitting being a moderator are something that are taken lightly
 
10:56 AM
@Shadow Example: "People started mailing me nuclear weapons".
 
@Aza I don't doubt your honesty, and I understand you don't want to justify yourself because you've been doing it for so long and to no avail.
 
@Gryphon that's not trolling (by itself) just exaggerating, can be on purpose to be sarcastic.
 
user206222
@Aibobot A lotta stuff, everywhere. From whether using the wrong pronouns for people who use they/them is Actually Misgendering, down to whether or not I am being truthful about saying I'm a woman. Down to things I cannot demonstrate. I've had around a half dozen challenges this week of the type: "You say you are a woman? Well, prove it."
 
@Shadow Fair point, but I'm still going to believe the statement taken literally.
 
@Aza ....
Most of those behaviours are silly
 
10:59 AM
@Aza this is beyond absurd, you should just ignore such silliness. Sorry you have to face such things.
 

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