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1:01 AM
ugh morning
interstate ???
trying to restart the translation bot
translate pt: Feed?
not working
1:50 AM
@user298438 eh, that's not a very nice thing to say
2:10 AM
Why does that need to be flagged?
@Undo well, network policy on rudeness, user who clearly isn't playing nice...
Are we defining all bad words as rude now?
the other, flag-deleted message says the same thing
@Undo its kinda sans context, aimed at.. I donno, not really making any sense
The one with flags on it now is not directed at anyone.
If we're gonna take that stance, you basically have to ban a list of words in any context. Might as well be a server block.
A: Are expletives (cursing, swear words or vulgar language) allowed on SE sites?

Jeff AtwoodNo. Expletives are not acceptable behavior on any Stack Exchange site, even on Meta. There are a very small handful of exceptions (such as if you were talking about the word itself on a language site), but in general you should not use expletives anywhere, under any circumstances. If you can't e...

I invoke meta here.
2:13 AM
That's talking about the sites.
Also the fact that the user said the same thing again when asked nicely. And on the whole isn't making very much sense.
It's gratuitous and doesn't add anything.
@JourneymanGeek I don't debate that, I debate the practice of flagging other messages in order to achieve a desired outcome.
May 15 at 17:59, by Shog9
And if you're gonna be pedantic, "fuck" isn't profanity.
@Undo both messages flagged say the same thing
In different contexts
2:15 AM
Ok, so the first isn't aimed at anyone cause... IDK, the lines before that dosen't exactly make sense to me.
Translate bot
(which has been broken forever)
But is there any value it?
Are we defining chat based on value?
'cause there goes Anime
The translate bot was mod only as far as I'm aware... and only staff are mods here.
Are we seriously going to have this long debate about this? It was profanity for the sake of profanity. It's not worth this whole discussion.
2:17 AM
But it wasn't. Not the way I read it, at least
Cause I literally asked nicely, which I always do, for people who do.
I mean, that's literally the first thing I do.
And I don't think flagging that was out of line either
@JourneymanGeek Interestingly, the original consensus was "Yes, but keep them to a minimum", which was at a score of 142 3 years ago, which is above the current score of "No". I'm not arguing either way, just pointing out that there's been an answer deleted which appears to manipulate what's believed to be the consensus.
Look at the edit history of both answers
2:36 AM
If we are to compile a list of banned words, could we add "literally" there? It's misused too much.
@JohnDvorak is it literally used too much?
And, since "problem" is already there, let's add "programming"
and I actually used literally literally
@JohnDvorak yes please
It does, shockingly enough, do what it says on the tin, used as per the instructions.
2:38 AM
The turn indicator lights also indicate the car is about to make a turn ... if used that way.
@Shog9 I'd be happy to, but can't, as I can't see deleted posts on MSE. However, I don't really see a fundamental change to the answer in the "No" answer's edit history (which I can see). The archive of the "Yes, but minimal" answer indicates it was, prior to the archive, most recently edited on 2009-04-11. I'm not trying to argue either "yes" or "no", just that the removal of that answer results in a distorted view that it's the consensus that there isn't even a dissenting point of view.
I'd be fine with it just being stated that "this is the way it's going to be, because the SE decided it would be". My issue is that it's presented as a normal Q&A, with votes, which strongly implies that it's the collective consensus of the people using the network, which is a distortion of what appears to really be the case.
@Makyen point wasn't so much the edits as the combined chronology
Summary is that a bunch of answers were all deleted at the same time the remaining answer was edited
Because it isn't exactly a normal question; traditionally meta questions are treated as wikis
Part of the problem is that's just how the network is... MSE is a source of information/documentation about the network. That's what the FAQs are... it's not about consensus, it's the rules that aren't only codified in the help center.
It wouldn't hurt to put some of that in the official documentation/CoC etc... and I'm guessing that's what today's blog post is saying... they're going to be doing more of that... but even then, those ToC statements of policy need to be pretty general. That's how policy works. Too many specific rules and you get people rules-lawyering you into submission. We require the sites to be a place of respectful discourse...
@Makyen I wouldn't even have pulled it out if Undo hadn't asked why
My philosphy of chat moderation is that is isn't something you can do by focusing on individual events.
Its really about setting what works well for the room itself over a period of time.
IIRC, the impetus for the cleanup was yet another in a string of arguments involving folks pointing at different answers as justification for... Well, doing whatever they wanted: cussin', flagging, complaining
2:50 AM
I've had 8 years to do that on RA. I've had a few months here, most of which I didn't really use my powers.
RA = root access - the SU chat room
So, stuff like this is literally "hey, this is kinda how we want this space to be, please" first
I don't think a zero tolerance for swearwords is making the chat any better...
maan, we've had this conversation before
ok, so...
personally I'm not a zero tolerance person.
What is a swear word?
I mean, if there's mind profanity in the middle of a conversation, I'm not even going to notice
2:57 AM
I don't think we have a zero tolerance policy in here, anyway... but I popped in here and the first thing I saw was a bright red message in my face with just a swear word... really not what I needed ...
My typical response to minding is often going "hey, language" or "dude, that might get you in trouble, want me to move it?"
I do not oppose removing non-sequitur swearwords like has just happened.
We can agree there
So, for me, rule 0 is "the chat must flow"
if it were [status-fubar], then I don't think anyone care, but well, "F- off"?
3:00 AM
Yep. I don't have a problem with that.
Smokey uses the poop emoji for NAAs
Does she?
and I like that
but it's on MS, outside of SE environment
3:03 AM
unless you install the AIM userscript, which also brings them to chat
@Shog9 I certainly don't have a problem with the cleanup of most of the answers (the others I've skimmed weren't useful). I even prefer "No, with some minor, specific exceptions". It just concerns me that there was a long standing (i.e. many years) opposite answer (or at least one with different shades of emphasis), that was deleted on a post that does get used to justify a specific stance. While the intent of the cleanup may not have been to show one POV as a consensus, it has that effect.
I'd honestly be more comfortable with just a policy statement that says the same thing as the current answer is just the way it's going to be on SE.
@JohnDvorak 0_0
I thought chat did emoji
@JourneymanGeek Yes, it supports Unicode characters, as you've now demonstrated. :-)
@Makyen oh, that seemed better than... well testing it with the poopmoji ;)
Probably a good choice :-)
3:11 AM
We had... at least 2 toilet emojis recently on this room, and one got starred ~_~
Friend of mine and I have a thing were we do co-op games...
And PorkChat makes them huge... which is fun.
3:30 AM
What's better... toilets or teapots?
Well I guess that's a number 2-418?
@Makyen so... Here's the dirty little secret: when Jeff posted that answer, he was effectively saying, "this is how I'm going to moderate".
...actually, that wasn't much of a secret
it didn't much matter that there was another answer that scored higher; if you wrote vulgar posts and they got flagged, they'd probably get deleted. Particularly on meta.
Heck... Some common bits of vulgarity got built into the flagging system, so they'd get deleted immediately. And that's still true to this day.
3:46 AM
:The words "accept rate" being most profane of all
But... Folks would go to meta, and see those two answers, and say, "the system is WRONG! this top answer says I CAN post vulgar stuff! With extra exclamation points! With no repercussions! As long as I do so in moderation! And my definition of moderation involves EXCESS! ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!!!1!ONEONEONE!"
and by "say" I mean "reply to the mod message suspending them"
which of course accomplished nothing
The FAQ exists to describe how the system works. Not how folks wish it worked.
Can't we align the two?
Swear Overflow
f*** yeah!
(oops, wrong pokemon)
3:52 AM
The needs of people who are at work and don't want vulgar content and swear words on their screen outweigh the wishes of the people who want to cuss in posts... whether that extends more formally to chat is somewhat up in the air at this point... and that may be clarified more in the future. As Jeff says... what value does it add? Cussing in posts (if they're not about cussing) serves no value to later readers, it only lets the OP feel a little better to be ranting about a problem they have.
It can make the post more entertaining to read
But... we hate fun :(
We're not here to entertain... and there are plenty of people who don't find it entertaining at all.
Less relevant on SO (where we hate anything but a good ole debugging session), more relevant on sites I actually like to visit.
> Ah, now... Cursing is another matter. Wretched spam! May your for loops spin impotently, your stacks overflow, your segments fault, and all your accesses be deemed violations! May someone let all the smoke out of your monitors, and may all your tin grow whiskers.
that was the REAL loss of deleting the other answers
3:54 AM
if you must curse, be creative? ;)
Now that's entertainment. :)
I'd say that on WorldBuilding, "you're fucked" is a touch more effective at driving the point home than any allusion to furniture components.
@JohnDvorak but its better to go why one is, well, up a water body of post consumer food without an impeller... then to tell them they're up s*** creek without a paddle.
and I think saying "you're f****d" on a post on WB will certainly be flagged, and is against community standards without a doubt.
Its just how its always worked
and we do well enough without profanity
3:58 AM
Still no better than this meta post (warning, swear overflow)
@SomewhatMemorableName heh
A: Could a Spaceship Enter/Exit the Atmosphere Without Landing

Gar_eeGoing strictly off of your original question without knowledge of your comments specify more, then yes it's possible, and yes we probably do have the technology right now to do it. If you look at Blue Origin's New Shepherd rocket, it's designed to burn straight up until it's apogee is above the...

ehh. Feel free to flag I guess
@SomewhatMemorableName That... has probably outlived its usefulness...
4:00 AM
I'm not going to flag this and I hope you won't either.
@Catija heh, that actually kinda reflects how much things have changed ;)
But I think that was literally "Atwood as the community team" era
@JohnDvorak naw
I'm not really a fan of "But they did this!"
How are we supposed to learn from examples then?
And kinda finding that balance between being friendly and welcoming, and getting offended by everything. ;)
Well, as a user, I'd appreciate that moderation takes into account common sense and nuance
if it was something trivially automatable, it would
Common sense would be nice, yes. Which is why I'm perfectly fine with swearwords on WB.
And so, this is a problem I face a lot on the other chat.
On one hand, I usually can handle profanity I am not comfortable with without resulting to my mod tools, or the threat of it
On the other, the levels of proactiveness and management style of it varies so much that some users kinda feel that they need to worry about some random person flagging something, and some random set of people handling it..
and unfortunately the result of this can vary between outright hostilty to just a chilling effect.
4:07 AM
What if we removed 10k chat flagging and left it to mods?
That results in a lot of gaps
euphemism helps... shuck instead of S-word, darn instead of D-word, foock instead of F-word
@SomewhatMemorableName personally?
I type it out, stare at it, then go change it to something that reflects a broader vocabulary :)
@SomewhatMemorableName To me that is just a sign of a person who does not know how to communicate without swearing.
@GiantCowFilms don't we all?
4:09 AM
If you think about something long enough, there is usually a more effective way to communicate without swearing.
@JohnDvorak No. Some of us don't swear, don't speed, don't drink, don't do drugs and we are perfectly happy and fine. That blows some people's mind.
Don't drink? Yeeugh.
except I was wrong: 1657 "damn"s and 436 "darn"s on here.
4:11 AM
I'm not sure about perfectly happy, but yeah, I don't swear much, drink alchohol or do drugs
@SomewhatMemorableName damn is super super mild IMO
In some cultures, "damn" isn't considered an offensive word.
@JohnDvorak Hopefully you didn't for the first 21 (or whatever the legal age where you live is) years on this planet. The trick is don't start.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog But in some it is. Therefore out of respect for those other cultures, don't use it.
@JourneymanGeek Same with me
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog In most, I'd say
And if you aren't aware, you can always apologize and don't do it again.
4:12 AM
@GiantCowFilms yup
You cannot be perfectly self aware all the time
I'm not going to stop drinking. We have good beer where I live.
Also, I live 400 km away from some great wine producers, and it shows in our grocery stores and occasionally in my fridge.
Giving up booze isn't difficult for me...
@JohnDvorak IIRC you're German, right?
Ah, right, I forgot the origin of your namesake keyboard layout.
@Catija When did you?
4:17 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog plot twist he has secretly been using QWERTY the whole time.
I actually have
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog ... February... and before that in November '15... sort of required.
Not secretly though, it's just the topic never came up
@GiantCowFilms Don't you mean QWERTZ?
I have a "Y" key there. Unless there is a joke I'm not getting.
4:19 AM
The QWERTZ or QWERTZU keyboard is a typewriter and keyboard layout widely used in Central Europe. The name comes from the first six letters at the top left of the keyboard: Q, W, E, R, T, and Z. == Overview == The main difference between QWERTZ and QWERTY is that the positions of the Z and Y keys are switched (hence the nickname "kezboard"). This change was made for two major reasons: "Z" is a much more common letter than "Y" in German; the latter rarely appears outside words whose spellings reflect either their importation from a foreign language or the Hellenization of an older German form under...
I didn't know that.
I could imagine switching would be really annoying, typing y's instead of z's and z's instead of y's.
Try French...AZERTY
It's prettz eayz to get used to it
I mean... It's prettz eqyz to get used to it
4:22 AM
@JohnDvorak You spell "easy" as "eazy"?
Just for this one purpose, I do
I think from now on I will spell it "eazy" just for lols.
I bet it will drive some pedantic people nuts.
I wonder if "nuts" is a swearword :P
depends on the context.
I'm beginning to see how life in Oslo is like...8:30 PM and the sun's still out.
4:24 AM
if its used to refer to craziness or the fruit, its fine. Otherwise, yeah, no.
How about the fruit?
That too is fine.
you get my point....
azerty is not as bad as qwertz
Its so different you know its all going to be odd
UK to US is amazingly hard
cause the @ key is different and such
The more alien a keyboard is, the less annoying it is to use IMO :)
That one is actually good
4:36 AM
dvorak is completely alien ;p
Yeah, my friend used it on his laptop, and annoyed all users who borrow his ._.
You wouldn't even be able to touch type on it
which would be annoying
I used to do UK QWERTY in US layout
Quite the opposite
Touch-type is easier to learn on Dvorak than on Qwerty
my dream keyboard is, in fact a US layout keyboard with the ISO style enter key ;)
@JohnDvorak you'd need to learn
I can't touch-type qwerty
4:38 AM
My typing style is odd
I kinda type with two fingers and my thumbs
but its good enough for my use
I suppose that being a dog makes that easier...
(also its a mechie so you can hear the stacatto typing)
@JourneymanGeek Huh. The UK layout seems needlessly different. When all it really adds is a pound key
@Rob and just enough symbols are in different places for it to be annoying
I want an ASCII keyboard
two 4x4 panels, one for each nibble
32 keys total
plus modifier keys
5:17 AM
whoo package
@JohnDvorak sounds like a fun weekend project with a microcontroller
I do want to build a 40% keyboard for fun some day

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