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12:06 AM
I wonder why Norm deleted their account again
@Catija I also dare say taking care of toddlers clearly helps with the "But Why?"s
@hey You can change your name back to Andrew T.
I mean, taking care of a small grumpy terrier is great training for moderation
@JourneymanGeek He doesn't speak well enough yet to be in the "why" phase... I think that starts more in the 3 year range...
I lack any of the prerequisites to have kids so far so... I'm just guessing?
12:12 AM
He can say a few words... and it's really cute when he does "no,no,no!" or the weird word he uses to mean most fruits... which sounds like something half way between banana and blueberry....
@Catija The question was, am I really like that first muppet?
I like my question better.
@Catija I call them "fries". So does the puppeteer in the intro to another video
One that you've watched
"Downvote! NAA flag! Delete vote!"
12:25 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Which are the quietest seats on these aircraft? by Kate Williamson on travel.SE
@SmokeDetector why
Post manually reported by user *DJMcMayhem* in room *Charcoal HQ*.

This post would not have been caught otherwise.
12:55 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Or is the question "Do I really act like a muppet?"
(fun fact! If people want to answer a question, they will!)
1:20 AM
@Catija What do you mean?
@πάνταῥεῖ Never be sarcastic on the Internet if you don't know how to.
@Shog9 I'm still waiting for you to consider my edits to this question. Note that I've now considered that the intent in bans is to get people to leave the site.
Once I posted a cat pic and it was removed, I am still owed an explanation.
And I'm naked in my avatar, so I'm wondering why hedgehogs get special treatment
pretty sure you can post naked almost anything other than human
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog gonna be honest: this is pretty low on my priority list right now
but, if it makes you feel better... I just submitted a PR for this
Hmm...I guess Sega is sexist. Most non-human male characters don't wear clothes, while most non-human female characters do: sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Category%3ACharacters_by_gender
@Shog9 Thanks, that does make me feel much better. Why not just sync it with the top banner notice in the first place?
1:34 AM
the top banner has other things it needs to do - like show up before the question is closed, but only for the asker
Strange that no one really cared about this until I arrived. (Someone did post about this, but it was closed as a duplicate of a wholly different issue, and no action was taken until I arrived and had it reopened.)
I did borrow from the logic used for that though
Turns out, this bug was introduced in 2016
Q: Exact duplicate doesn't require answer but claims one exists

jorikiThis question was (rightly) closed as an exact duplicate: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1717381. (If I'm not mistaken, only moderators can do that.) The message at the top differs from the normal duplicate message and says "This question is an exact duplicate of:" without claiming that...

@Shog9 IIRC before then all questions had the "asked before" notice
yes; see the link I just posted
that in turn was introduced in 2014
Wasn't there a time when older duplicates (reason 1 vs 101) also always had the "asked before" notice?
@Shog9 2013, you mean. Before that it was "closed as exact duplicate" nonsense.
1:36 AM
was it 2013? I could've sworn it was 2014, but my memory fades
either way, things were super inconsistent prior to that (and still are)
@Shog9 February 2013.
fair enough
@404 - I may have switched some booleans around. Will take a look when at my dev machine (probably tomorrow). — Oded Mar 31 '16 at 18:29
If I post a question such as 'most used function', which site does the question belong to?
I contemplated SO, but the question is not specific enough, but I don't really know if it suits any other sites
@Shog9 Why not? How about ?
It's to provide a source for the changelog.
why did you post that? There's already a bug report on MSE?
@Shog9 Because the MSE post is a support query, and not a bug report?
1:49 AM
@Shog9 Ah, didn't notice you edited the tags. It was a support query at the time I answered it.
@Shog9 In that case, can you please slap a on the MSE post?
2:29 AM
Does an edit on spam post remove the red flags on the post?
But you don't want to edit it cause... er... reasons
Cause I've been told for years that those things feed spam filters ;p
Doubly so with mr smokey
(miss smokey?)
The general rule is don't edit spam ... unless it's actually a user trying to be helpful and being inadvertently spammy.
For example, : martialarts.stackexchange.com/questions/7962/… from earlier... I'd edit it to remove the link to the classes.
Besides Smokey, what negative effects does editing spam posts have from SE? Does that reduce penalty on the spammer? Makes it miss the radar for limiting penalties and IP bans? Something else?
2:36 AM
It makes it less likely that the rest of the users who see it will flag it as spam.
If the other users don't flag it, then it won't be deleted as spam.
If it's deleted as spam, editing doesn't do anything.
2:54 AM
@NogShine rollback can
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog ain't planned until a patch is accepted
I don't like status tags that don't indicate a well defined status
NormalHuman and Yvette deleted their account at the same time, coincident? I think not ...
@TelKitty Yvette is not deleted, just renamed
She's just on a break.
3:05 AM
In the unlikely event of them end up on a sun drenched, beautiful island together with 6 horses, I wish them all the happiness.
And Norm has also deleted his Twitter account
3:28 AM
3:49 AM
I didn't have a Twitter account until early last month, which I only used to contact British Airways to see if they'd land their first 747 in Austin on the right runway for plane spotters to see (they didn't). I didn't begin using my account until April's tweets about this room.
I've had twitter for ages
I've only really started using it since someone went "hey, could you tweet that clever thing you said on chat so I can retweet it?"
I have like four twitter accounts.
But I don't really use them.
I don't consider 127 charecters enough for anything serious
I didn't initally realize that you could rename a twitter account, so I created one long ago and never used it... then I reserved one with my name... and never really used it... and I made one for an Etsy shop... maybe just three... and eventually, I realized I could rename them, so I renamed the second one to iCatija... but I don't use the other two still.
I renamed mine from the cringy teen-20s username I had
which... my main email still has, but we gotta own our pasts right? ;p
3:58 AM
Yeah... I cringe at things that have numbers. I became quite the username elitist... When I couldn't just get Catija on twitter I was ... very annoyed.
No numbers ;p
That's the nice thing with my current nick
its mostly unique
This one is, too... and the person who has it on Twitter has never tweeted, as far as I can tell.
I have not used twitter for nearly 2 years. Deleted linkedin too.
In the extremely unlikely event of me becoming super rich and famous, especially in power, I would have to delete SE/SO account too.
although I might just open another account
4:02 AM
Somebody already secured @gparyani a long while ago...but I was able to acquire @sonic_gparyani
Meh, I'm starting a programming class for young middle school students called "Sonic's Programming Camp", so that will be useful
4:17 AM
Uh. Mor... Afternoon.
Norm deleted all the things again? Is it weird if I wasn't really surprised...
Yes he did
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog thanks, but I'm okay with this name, until he comes back
Probably suffering the same problems I had back in 2014
At least his GitHub tools are still available
And his website
4:41 AM
FYI @user1114:
39 mins ago, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Somebody already secured @gparyani a long while ago...but I was able to acquire @sonic_gparyani
4:53 AM
Rugby on the Meta
1 hour later…
6:13 AM
Is there something CM can do about questions about user deletions and suspensions? There is no anonymity even after deletion. Someone or the other is starting discussions again and again.
@NogShine that's really something the mods need to deal with
Moderation isn't just about mechanics - its about handling the community
@JourneymanGeek Only if they care.
CM's can be a backstop but I'd rather deal with those myself.
Well, if your mods don't care, they are either apathic, overworked or stressed out
None of those are good
And there's lot of good examples of how to deal with people talking about suspensions
@JourneymanGeek It is not that they don't care completely. They don't mind discussions about suspended and deleted users. That is the problem.
6:30 AM
@NogShine isn't that something you should talk to about with them then?
@JourneymanGeek Yes, this should be handled by them.
and if you feel there's an issue, let them know!
Mods are humsns too
Sometimes, we miss things
or see things differently
6:58 AM
"Mods are also not above the law"
(never seen CMs or SE staffs getting suspended though)
Well, if you don't make it as a CM you are demoted to become a developer or dba ...
That should keep them motivated ...
7:17 AM
> people being mean to dbas
Yes ... but they always have their opinion about my beautiful query being slow and whatnot and ... they are always right ...
7:31 AM
@JourneymanGeek Except for the ones that are dogs.
@hey in a practical sense - mods are literally users with a small extra bit of powers
and there's always a few users on specific sites you can probably trust to have a good read on things
(and sometimes intentionally choose not to be mods :( )
@rene Pretty sure there's occational, civil disagreements over things
@JourneymanGeek not when you have me as dev around ...
I know what I'm capable off
7:38 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog that dupe points to a feature request. It's an awesome Q/A ... still
@rene The ideas in that FR are relevant to this question and mostly answer it.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog fair enough
@rene Please add meta.stackexchange.com/questions/64068/… to the duplicate list
(That's an FAQ)
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog "CMC's Summer Friendship Camp"
Looking at the transcripts, it was just close to when Shadow and πάν were suspended from chat that NH requested deletion of his account
@rene Author edited the post so the linked target no longer applies, but the one I linked here does. Please change the dupe target to the other one.
7:47 AM
sigh ... done
so, today the new info about the "Arbitration Scandal" should be in?
8:40 AM
sd tp-
9:37 AM
sd tpu-
1 hour later…
10:39 AM
@TelKitty et al - still pregnant, she's had some minor changes. Will let you know if I think we'll have a foal before you visit :D
@user3956566 :D
And I bought 5 tops while @ birkenhead :p I know I am hopeless >_< ... currently working on the report
@user3956566 looks like it's going to be good weather from Wednesday onwards, it would be awesome to camp while the horses are then :D
@TelKitty I've just finished an assessment - writing some basic programs, interesting.. 1 assessment, 1 MC quiz and 2 exams to go and I'm done! I can't wait. You should take some pics of the tops and email me ...
10:53 AM
@TelKitty I'm dearly hoping I'm not so sick.. either way, I want to see you! and we have enough beds to put you somewhere to sleep or we can camp. It's so nice, I can't wait for you to meet our new horses. Cleo is such a good girl, a strong herd leader. Penny is not looking so good the past few days, she's suddenly looking older and tired. :[ I'm making sure she gets her supplements. I'm thinking of rugging her, I have to be careful not to overheat her.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog yes, I'm taking a break, but still giving the foal updates, as there were a few people interested.
@TelKitty we can talk again over the weekend, keep up with the report!
@user3956566 Sure, hope you feel better soon :)
11:14 AM
The irony of meta... it discourages me from participating because people use votes to indicate they support or dislike something rather than the actual merit of the question
@Mgetz I think the trick for me was... stopping worrying about votes
I ask VERY few questions but...
@JourneymanGeek I recognize that, but I'm human
@Mgetz The bigger picture is "getting your audience" - even when you know its going to be relatively unpopular
Meta's really the best way to influence folks done right
11:39 AM
I'm glad I'm a flower
@rene you say that... but I'm reminded of Flowey from Undertale
I'm known to do all kind of weird things with people minds ... I'm sorry ...
sd why
@SmokeDetector sd tpu-
sd poof
11:59 AM
11 messages moved to Chimney
@user3956566 Are you going to retain your moderator privileges on SO?
@Mgetz I've been complaining about that for a long time. I morally detest the idea that one should lose rep merely because people disagree with a post.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog to me this was broken when it was split out into meta.se from meta.so, meta.so votes don't affect rep and thus don't feel as heavy. Here they do
The only difference vs site specific meta sites is that you actually loose rep at MSE
@πάνταῥεῖ That's a huge difference
@Mgetz Back when MSE was called MSO, it was still MSE, but with a different name and different scope. It actually had its own separate rep. The problem wasn't introduced when MSO split from MSE; it was always there.
12:10 PM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I'll trust you on that
@Mgetz -- shrug --
I believe voting on FRs, even on per-site metas, harms inclusivity quite a bit.

Voting behavior on meta and inclusivity

Jan 18 at 23:44, 56 minutes total – 105 messages, 3 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked Jan 19 at 0:41 by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

(And yes, I did actually lose a privilege simply for having my suggestion deemed unpopular.)
Jan 19 at 0:12, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog
The current voting system makes people, especially those somewhere on the autism spectrum (like me), perplexed. "The question is clearly well-written and shows clear research effort, but just because you disagree with it it suddenly isn't written well enough and shows too little research effort. What is going on?"
Jan 19 at 0:14, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog
@M.A.R. Not just the tooltip. It was confusing for me as to why s and other questions (including those on main sites) were held to different standards. I couldn't understand it.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I'm sorry, but where do you have evidence to back up ASD diagnoses linked to being especially confused about downvotes compared to basically anyone else?
@PrincessLuna Omit the part of the sentence that refers to autism.
AS isn't the point there.
that I'm trying to make here.
That's the point I see
12:17 PM
Nononononono wait you got it wrong.
Votes were never meant to be required to express anything in the first place.
-- shrug --
Every attempt to force votes to carry a meaning has always been trashed with arguments like "I am entitled to vote the way I like"
Use comments instead.
So, if we accept that you can downvote a post not because it is wrong but just because "Tim lost his keys"... there is no need to argue about the perceived meaning of votes.
We already accepted they having none beforehand.
the help center is quite clear about what is an appropriate downvote
12:20 PM
that only works on main site, and Meta SE is main site.
Jan 19 at 0:31, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog
@M.A.R. I can say, this behavior has had a chilling effect on my overall willingness to suggest ideas. Which is detrimental to a community where ideas should be free-flowing.
@Mgetz You're right that article is quite misleading regarding the real behavior you'll see at MSE
@Mgetz I know perfectly it states that, but it didn't stop people from claims like "I don't have to explain my votes to nobody. If I want to downvote you because your username or because you have more rep than me, I am free to do it."
Needs to be rewritten
MSE is a wolf wearing sheep skin.
12:22 PM
Jan 19 at 0:04, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog
I would propose this: the normal set of votes would be used solely to indicate quality, as they are for main sites and questions on meta sites, while we would introduce a new, separate set of "agreement/disagreement" votes that wouldn't affect reputation in any way.
Just read the whole conversation, linked at the top
Feel free to propose, SE never did any changes to meta vote.
Who knows, it'd make SE more welcoming.
Because of the recent inclusivity push, this proposal might get some traction. But back in January, it would have gotten no traction.
@hey the main flaw we have is the same requirement we need to alleviate bad content. Create enough bad content and you are silently put in the penalty box.
12:26 PM
On the other hand (as everywhere) rep loss through down-votes is already weighed out fairly by rep gain through upvotes. Scores might look bad, but under the hood a post might still have gained rep positively.
Works on the surface, fails when you apply it to subjective topics. As I said before - it is weird that we accept that different mods can handle the same flag in different ways and you should simply "Try again your luck" if you feel a declined flag was undeserved... yet every single new lottery ticket can put you one little step close a flag ban.
Jan 19 at 0:19, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog
Look, what goes on in my mind is "hey, I had 127 steps to go before I get to see view counts. But just because I expressed an unpopular opinion, I've been thrown back two steps; now I need 129."
Jan 19 at 0:28, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog
@M.A.R. Ideologically you shouldn't be losing your hard-earned rep just for suggesting something that is unpopular.
I asked a question I knew would be unpopular - since it suggested changing a core mechanism of the site.
I got a net gain in rep.
12:33 PM
Now, while you can neutralize the 129 back into 127 by, say, suggesting an approved edit, it's still bad, because it would have been 125 if I didn't lose rep for it.
And on MSE, oddly, as a site with no parent, your rep kinda acts as your rep.
tl;dr I'm not really concerned about the numbers here. I'm ideologically, morally opposed to the idea of losing rep simply for disagreement.
@JourneymanGeek That's what I meant
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I am morally and ideologically against a kudos model.
@πάνταῥεῖ Meaning?
kudos, karma, rep...
12:36 PM
This leaves only reality distortions
And on MSE - for me, its about the strength of your proposal, and even if unpopular, I might have folks looking at my idea and going "hmm, actually that's not that bad"
or even "that's terrible"
and if means a net good for the network, shrug
I can make it up once the current drama is over ;)
That's what I believe: write an unpopular feature request with very convincing reasons and diplomatic wording = net gain in rep
6 mins ago, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
tl;dr I'm not really concerned about the numbers here. I'm ideologically, morally opposed to the idea of losing rep simply for disagreement.
Ain't gonna fly for me.
12:40 PM
Jan 19 at 0:04, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog
I would propose this: the normal set of votes would be used solely to indicate quality, as they are for main sites and questions on meta sites, while we would introduce a new, separate set of "agreement/disagreement" votes that wouldn't affect reputation in any way.
propose it.
No. I'll get downvoted, and I've had too many declined feature requests lately.
12:43 PM
Really, if you really care and want the system to change. Propose it.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog May be too many is the key point here
Jan 19 at 0:31, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog
@M.A.R. I can say, this behavior has had a chilling effect on my overall willingness to suggest ideas. Which is detrimental to a community where ideas should be free-flowing.
The reason I don't post my FR because I really don't care that much anymore.
12:44 PM
Broadly I suggest and answer cause I think it makes the community a better place
Sometimes I even find myself outside the safe confines of SE doing that.
As long as you're focused on rep or even keeping things neat and orderly, you're not going to get how to do MSE.
Focus on "how do I help people the best" and "what can I share" and... things just work
@hey sadly, the system isn't build to support this kind of behavior. One can't simply try to "change the system" by posting a proposal and then refining it with feedback.
@Derpy well, to an extent!
Learn from mistake, or just move on.
A lot of the system in SE isn't mechanics
Its behaviour
12:46 PM
Pulling knobs and pushing buttons is behavior, yes.
@TelKitty my ISP blocked that... certainly NSFW...
@πάνταῥεῖ More that meta is our case law.
We have very little strict rules and a load of collected wisdom
@TelKitty The picture contains errors?
So effective use of meta is literally a way to create a 'tradition' or a bit of case law someone else can refer to.
@JourneymanGeek nope. I can't. If my initial proposal is strongly frowned upon I can "lose my ability to speak". I also have no way to restart an old discussion because if I post a new "question" it will be closed as a dupe even if the old one was made 6-8 years ago... And to use bounties to reopen an old argument, you'll have to have the rep to do so in the first place.
@Derpy I actually feel folks are too eager to close as dupe.
It's a love-hate relationship where you love SE for certain things, but also hate SE for other things. I can live with it as long as I'm not annoyed.
So, to me, meta also acts as a helpdesk
Its a useful place for folks who are starting to get the system to get things better
I even gave some useful markup formatting tips ;)
12:50 PM
I'm not a fan of how folks dupehammer stuff, but I'm not sure of a strong, convincing reason I can use not to
Weird, I tried the link on chrome/firefox & IE across windows and mac, all worked fine for me @hey @PrincessLuna
@TelKitty I tried with Chrome, didn't work either
@Derpy That, along with people using Chaos Emeralds quickly (@JourneymanGeek), is part of why I wrote How do I get attention for old, unfixed bug reports and feature requests without official responses here on Meta?.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog but you encourage people do dupehammer a lot
So technically... you're kinda part of the problem ;p
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Dupehammer in . Don't tell me that wouldn't make sense to you?
@JourneymanGeek In recent days I've limited [chaos-emerald-pls] to cases where the proposed target is an FAQ
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog and not everything needs to be duped against the FAQ either
Its a bit user hostile.
Anyway, I have been in the 4th group since long then
Now, on SU, where I have community FAQs, I often wait for an answer before closing as dupe
12:54 PM
I've also left additional comments pointing to the specific section where the question is answered.
(since the dupes actually help feed to the community FAQ)
@hey Still quite useful diagram.
the point isn't closing as much as possible as dupe, its to help folk find the best, most comprehensive information
@hey wait a sec....
@TelKitty FireFox win10 here
12:56 PM
@TelKitty -- thumbs up -- :-D
And when someone very instantly uses their Chaos Emerald where the target is an unresolved FR, I leave a comment with a link to How do I get attention for old, unfixed bug reports and feature requests without official responses here on Meta?
See? That literally dosen't help fix the behaviour in question.
@TelKitty there it is, Lol
@hey found.
@TelKitty Is it actually necessary to link here, though?
12:58 PM
no, you can move it to trash
deja vu
@TelKitty even content aside, would that even be.. well respectful to Yvette?
@Derpy Unicorns fighting windmills. That's a nice picture ;)
I think Yvette is okey with that. We know each other pretty well.
12:59 PM
I'd totally consider that inappropriate, and "you can move it to trash" isn't an appropriate reply
you are infer things
Someone else being okay with it doesn't make inappropriate content acceptable here.
Hmm, well but the explicit name relation
Q: Electronic opt-out, correcting miscommunication, and additional questions answered about the 2018 ToS update

Tim PostWe’ve listened to what you’ve been telling us about the arbitration clause that our most recent ToS update introduced. While we can't incorporate all of the feedback you offered, we did listen to it, and got with our legal experts and higher-ups to see what we could deliver as a compromise. We ...

how nice the mod life is. Someone post an allegedly inappropriate link... and you have to look at it to check if it is really inappropriate and has to be removed.
I don't miss that. My moderating days have ended looong ago.
@TelKitty sadly enough? Its my responsibility to go "hey, this is not ok".
With recent events? Its part of my responsibility to also try to set those lines, where possible.
So, I am totally in a situation where I need to infer things and make those calls.
1:16 PM
> the vast majority of people actually using the site as intended are essentially anonymous touches.
What does anonymous touches mean here?
@rene appropriate use of comment to ask ;p
@rene Probably smth. you'll receive in a darkroom. dunno?
I've been laughed at before when I asked stuff so I rather ask here if it turns out to be obvious
@rene asked ;p
I hope he didn't mean douchebags because that was what came first to my mind. Don't ask why.
1:30 PM
Vast majority of users are anonymous "unregistered" users?
that ... would make sense
@rene to be fair, I also inferred some sort of disrespect in that line, so I wouldn't exclude that was indeed the intended meaning.
"touches" is autocarrot from "though"?
all options are open if you ask me
@hey ^cannot compute?
1:49 PM
> There was a serious flaw in code published and positively promoted at your website and our spaceship crashed. Is there a way you could agree to participate with our losses? -Elon Musk-
^ learn CSS clip:rect(.....) with @bjb568?
CSS the devdoodle way

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