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10:00 AM
yep - the little foal I have - with the collapsing hind legs from starving - is doing so well
I am specialised in rehabilitating horses.
@YvetteColomb its fairly obvious from the photos he's doing better
@JourneymanGeek Apparently there's something wrong with the C key on my clipboard...next time, I should always right-click and select Copy
10:02 AM
@JourneymanGeek yep - I wormed him today and he's letting me get close to him, his sister still won't let me touch her and gives me the wild eye
I know that look ;p
I got bitten by a pony once...
yep - I have to be careful, as if they feel too much pressure, they can turn on a dime to kick or strike out with their front legs. She's terrified of people.. She has not long come out of the wild, running with a herd of totally wild horses and her mum. She will be good. All my horses end up loving me.
hah. I had bribes. That little... ;p
it ate a sugar cube out of my hand. Then bit me. Then glared ;p
lol little minx
10:06 AM
yeh I get close to them through food
my big girl Cleo - is such a darling horse. she comes up and naps when I'm at the paddocks, she feels relaxed enough to take a break when I'm around. She's the lead mare and takes care of them all. I tell her how good she is. She gets lots of pats and hugs.
I love this pic
I'll stop spamming the Tavern with horse stuff now :/
10:57 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in body: Has Anyone Heard of Bitcoin Trader? by Virtual on bitcoin.SE
I figured out an interesting tactic: whenever suggesting an edit, make an obvious typo in any added text. Thus, it's likely to be approved faster because it's reviewed by just one user who Improves it and fixes the typo, as opposed to by two users. If it's not noticed and just approved, just suggest another edit to fix the typo, and then you earn double rep.
@YvetteColomb that ... that ... looks like a mule :x
unimules, unite!
11:06 AM
until people get mad at you for gaming the system
I mean, we do actually have more than one reviewer for a reason
And you've get pwnd by the SE machine
11:21 AM
sorry for the interruption, I need a bit of help: is there anything I could do to save this FR from Roomba? I'm sorry for not having explained my FR properly in the beginning, but it looks like adding more clarification hasn't really changed anything (+2/-9 to +4/-11). What should/can I do? Thanks!
@TelKitty gasp a mule :D
One could snark with: "Let's start with Qualirty"
@YvetteColomb yeah, feral horse X a feral donkey ~_~
@GaurangTandon that links to a chat transcript
@JourneymanGeek sorry, my bad. this FR it was
11:29 AM
@TelKitty take this
they were both sleepy and dozing
fluffy <3
IN THEORY I could save it if I could fix up that incoherent ramble of an answer I have there
11:34 AM
I kinda think that question has a little more value than that
but oh well, whatever ;p
@JourneymanGeek please do, 33 days to Roomba! :-O
@GaurangTandon removed the chunk that was terrible
its not a great answer but its workable.
@SonicWizard added all the dupes I could find ...
This foal is called Padawan
11:39 AM
@JourneymanGeek hey wait, I didn't even notice you'd already posted an answer two days back. You deleted it within minutes of posting it seems :P
see the history
the earlier version was terrible
Its merely meh now :(
Wait, it doesn't seem to even answer my question :(
I agree with all what you posted, but then I'm asking for a new feature
But I think the feature isn't that useful!
and these are reasons why!
So none of the cases you stated would apply
ya. Its terrible
11:41 AM
Well, nvm
I'll just let it go
I don't even know how to fix it and it should go away
Well, then delete your answer, and let it be roombaed, I'll archive it later for safe keeping
Someone else has gotta answer?
No worries
will do
I'll see if I can write something better - but I think my attention's diverted by the new stuff going on
actually looking at it, I don't really think its answerable outside a status declined/accepted answer from TPTB
11:46 AM
Yep, that's right
Though i was more hoping of an answer, from the community, along the lines of "this feature could be very useful, and here's some more elaboration on why:.." or that "this feature is useless, and here's why...". All the current comments seem to focus on the abuse potential offered by the current system, so they're off topic, or at least appear as so to me, as they don't focus on the feature request itself.
@SonicWizard It's not a dupe
This question is a question about UI inconsistency between locked and historically locked posts, it's not asking what it is
Whoops, the bump got it another downvote. Seems like it is entirely a lost case, unless of course, a new answer is posted. No worries though. And thanks for the help. I really appreciate it!
@PrincessLuna In the linked () target: "The 'historical significance' lock reason works differently"
11:53 AM
It still doesn't explain what looks like a bug. It doesn't at all mention why, when voting is locked on both posts, why one shows the voting buttons and one doesn't
In fact, that's why we have two separate FAQs on the topic.
the current abuse potential is why I think its a bad idea
and that I'm not sure how it makes the site/network better
Speaking of inclusivity, maybe it's time that this declined (by Jeff) FR be reconsidered:
Q: Allow an edit to notify downvoters: "I think I've fixed the issue now - please check"

Jon SkeetTo me, a downvote usually indicates a problem with an answer. When I downvote it's to mark the answer as having a problem, not the person. If the answer is fixed, I want to remove that downvote - but it's tricky to keep track of all the questions I've looked at over the last few hours. I don't a...

12:16 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: How to check ping failure in logs/event viewer? by Naz Jonson on superuser.com
12:30 PM
> Overall, for mentored questions, there was an increase in the
amount of good questions asked, and reduction of
bad questions asked by Stack Overflow standards. - http://chrisparnin.me/pdf/chi18.pdf
It'd be surprising if otherwise.
Like, what were they doing if mentoring made it worse...
Like, it might not have "initially scaled" but what were the ongoing costs of running it?
Were there hidden costs?
Were people helped who became more "sticky" that we'd had rather not became stuck on us? Stuck Overflow, if you will?
12:46 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: How to check ping failure in logs/event viewer? by Muhammad Qasim on superuser.com
> Novice participants self-selected into the mentorship chat after composing a question on Stack Overflow.
Selection bias?
Maybe the mentorship did no good?
I think they kinda want to get the same effect with adding questions to prompt
prompts to asking questions?
Something like that
Here's a better rendition of The Awakening, I think...
I sang it with FSU's Chorale Union.
12:55 PM
Stack Exchange wants us a Clippy! D-:
> Give me questions I can't answer, not answers I can't question. - Dr. Richard Feynman
You can have rover.
This is a really great paper and more people should see it: chrisparnin.me/pdf/chi18.pdf
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: Is it safe to use paper towel as a filter when brewing? by CoffeeSupremacy on coffee.SE
1:04 PM
Going the way SO is going, we'll soon have even more questions you'll be able to answer. I'm not saying want to answer, but that's a personal problem of those who care about a nebulous undefined "site quality" more than they do about the tangible rewards the system objectively rewards to them. Maybe the term "rep-whore" is banned because that's what we're actually supposed to do? /s
@John Well, they killed Vlad. Those bastards.
1:24 PM
If I got suspended on SE.... probably no one cares :D
@JohnDvorak or basically help other folks with being better users where its possible
Replace all Q&A with a chat room
So, regarding the mentorship program, I think people want to help, so if Stack Overflow can match them up with people who need help, it'll help more new questioners, and improve the site overall.
@AaronHall or even within the current framework, comment (asking for clarification), edit (as needed)....
Don't forget downvote and vote to close.
1:37 PM
Just like writing papers, some professors are likeable, some aren't. Will there be any "rule-of-conduct" requirements to be a mentor? Also, consider "bad day"...
but that's janitorial work, not mentorship
Hmm, ratings and reviews for each mentor (uhh...)
It's hard to teach a class when someone's running a vacuum in it.
It makes the site purely pleasant for other users
1:39 PM
Assuming no selection bias, according to the paper, the mentorship program decreased "bad" questions by 20% and increased "good" questions by about the same percentage.
I guess the big problem there is scalability
What's the incentive for mentors? How do you mass match mentors and new users?
And users deliberately trolling mentors
What's the big problem if it doesn't scale?
(like some "live chat" button on some websites)
1:41 PM
If the goal is to help marginal users, it will help some marginal users.
That's a marginal improvement.
if you have folks trying to get mentorship and failing, in some sense it may end up worse
and just cause something works on a small scale may not work on a broader scale
@Undo minirant time?
Easy enough to turn it on/off on whatever criteria we want.
'sorry, no "mentors" available at this time, would you like to publish now or wait for a mentor? expected time for an available mentor is 20 minutes'
@Undo I actually like the template idea better
Imagine a system that really pushes mentorship if you’ve already asked a bad question. Less volume, more benefit to the site and the user.
I definitely want templates. It’d be a great thing to get out of this
1:44 PM
What if I know even before my first question that I'll need a mentor?
Or SO will certainly get it
(the most likely scenario)
'while waiting, do you want to watch how mentorship works and helps you?' click... watching YouTube videos demonstrating a successful mentorship case
@JohnDvorak Button can still be there, just not red and flashing.
@JourneymanGeek "Hate bad questions? Uncle SO wants YOU. Join the mentorship battalion! Get your mentorship badge! Earn real-world reputation as a helpful person, today!"
1:45 PM
@AaronHall oddly enough? I have a lot of reputation
and maybe a bit of a Reputation.
@JohnDvorak I challenge the notion that folks who don’t bother reading the /ask interstitial will actively seek out mentorship. Some, perhaps, not a majority or even close.
And on the rare occation I get sucked into a bit of mentorship I feel badly prepared for, but seems to work anyway ;p
@Undo I do think the multipage FAQ is a mistake
@Undo agreed. But what about those that do care?
have for years
@JohnDvorak Give them a button, but don’t emphasize it. It’s pretty easy to tune a UI to attract whatever users you want.
1:47 PM
@JourneymanGeek we actually need multipage question wizard page, not FAQ...
this is all just me spitballing, if we can scale mentorship to handle first-time askers in bulk that’d be awesome. Otherwise, focus on the places that can most use the help.
more mentors, more chatrooms
on mentorship.stackoverflow.com domain
(and tv.stackoverflow.com)
@JohnDvorak SO gets a ridiculously huge number of questions, remember.
And yet they whine they don't get enough newbies
1:50 PM
I don't think you're going to find enough mentors to handle it. But hey, if we do, awesome
Drop the end part, and have just a bunch of chatrooms with askers and answerers?
afk. Minirant will come if I think about something to rant about
more that prospective newbies find the place challenging
And if the chat provides something useful, then ask a lasting question
that's interesting
My first SU post was an answer
and my first 3 questions are closed. And the 3rd and 4th deleted
1:53 PM
A good question and a good answer are two things.
Hmm, yeh, what should mentor do if the mentee wanted to ask obvious off-topic question...
my early posts feel like neither in hindsite
@hey I think its pretty clear you don't like this idea ;)
@JourneymanGeek not really, I just have a doubt since I usually consider myself the most negative person in the office thinking all possible bad cases that could happen...
@hey if you read the paper, they dealt with that problem.
"mentee" might be my new favorite word
1:56 PM
in a sense though, someone telling someone they shouldn't ask OT questions and getting listened to saves everyone a lot of time and grief
@JourneymanGeek in every sense
The new issue is newbies whining that they got told by mentors their questions are OT, and asking anyways, getting smacked and whining even more. I wouldn't worry about it, but I still expect it to happen.
hence the in a sense
but then they arn't listening
and just want somewhere to post questions
@JohnDvorak That's not really an issue. They can't even complain that they were misled or had their expectations mismanaged.
2:04 PM
eating Mentos now...
just read the paper... do they have some details in mentees's cultural background, like... spoken language?
maybe I missed it somewhere
I am overdosing in coughing medicine - recommended dosage does not seem to work
err... check respiratory instead?
don't want to wake up 3 times by coughing again tonight
2:25 PM
nothing wrong with my respiratory system ... just some coughing THAT ANNOYS ME AT NIGHT!!!
@πάνταῥεῖ [:6902149] Post - Bad keyword cheap in link text
sd tp
sd poof
@SmokeDetector tp
sd poof
@πάνταῥεῖ I'd say it's a fp
2:41 PM
Lets wait until the airline link appears again.
2:51 PM
@ShadowWizard did your sock escaped here?
@πάνταῥεῖ it's a fp
Don't flag answers as spam when the question is asking for recommendations
if you did that, most of the answers on softwarerecs would be spam
@SmokeDetector fp
sd poof
And if you add - behind the feedback (fp-) SD doesn't post messages you need to poof afterwards :3
@SmokeDetector why-
yep, it works
Lol, didn't know why was affected xD
3:10 PM
@Princess My - key is sticky today
3:26 PM
@rene lol no, more likely sock of this user. ;)
@πάνταῥεῖ what made it sticky? o_O
sweets of course
@πάνταῥεῖ spilling sugar on it? :P
free candy for everyone
sigh snow/rain mix. I wish the weather would stop being so... hostile.
3:37 PM
Isn't there a word for snow/rain mixes in English?
Noun: sleet (countable and uncountable, plural sleets)
  1. (chiefly Britain, Ireland) A mixture of rain and snow.
  2. Rain which freezes before reaching the ground.
  3. (firearms) Part of a mortar extending from the chamber to the trunnions.
  4. sleet ...
Verb: sleet (third-person singular simple present sleets, present participle sleeting, simple past and past participle sleeted)
  1. (impersonal, of the weather) To be in a state in which sleet is falling.
  2. I won't bother going out until it's stopped sleeting.
Precise meaning varies by region, so I wouldn't use it. No ice pellets here, just droplets and snowlumps (not individual snowflakes)
> I'm facing the same issue in GoDaddy. Http is redirected to https, but for the naked domain (https://naked.com) I always get a certificate error. Any help will be appreciated.
I'm sure this is a perfectly good example of a naked domain...
4:03 PM
Does anyone know if Meta is broken?
Okay, sleet. But the weather forecast never uses the word. It's "frozen mix" or some such
Guessing it's an uncommon word?
@bro Yeah, typically the US "true" definition of sleet is only for ice pellets formed like that. So if it's a mix of that and snow, it's a "wintery mix" or "frozen mix".
4:06 PM
You answered 7 Earth Science questions in April 2014, got appointed a mod, and answered 1 question since.
Are chat rooms still shown in the sidebar of SO homepage / question pages?
Yeah, I'm the least active mod in posting. But I do handle a lot of flags.
@bro Periodically
huh, which chat rooms?
> Where to look for C# projects with details instructions to start for a new bee like me?
4:15 PM
The most active ones, which I imagine are SOCVR-related and JS/C++.
But I don't see that myself, as I'm hiding a lot of content.
Looks like a partial solution to the chat drama would be to not show the chatrooms there. They are useless for new users anyway.
More room for ads, hot questions and whatnot.
Just show more neutral chat room like Tavern on SO... erm.....
Tavern on SO had "to register a complaint, press Ctrl-W" in its room description.
4:19 PM
Could be a site-wide banner.
But it kind of excludes Mac users, so probably not,
so not inclusive...
4:38 PM
On my way to/from work I pass open basketball courts, for anyone wishing to play. Yet to see a game between women there. Why?
Could it be that some games are appealing to some demographic groups more than to others?
(It's not like the courts are always crowded; they stand empty for stretches of time.)
If you're from SO leadership, you try to solve the problem by changing the rules of basketball to make it more like synchronized swimming.
Like 5 players controlled by only 1 controller...
4:55 PM
> It stoped being welcoming when “subjective” questions were removed. Removing preomammer jokes was the worst mistake! -- Pop Catalin at 9:46 AM - 29 Apr 2018
Because those jokes were so inclusive...
@bro But a better analogy would be that you hear some women (as well as some men) complaining about how the basketball courts aren't inclusive, as the experienced men insult those who are just starting out.
Nobody is defending insults. I'm talking about the process of looking at survey data, seeing low % of women, and deciding it's necessary to cry and vomit because of that.
It's pretty clear that any kind of quality control can be perceived as hostile: votes, edits, comments, to say nothing of close and delete votes. And people with vulnerabilities of sorts are affected by perceived hostility more.
So if their perceptions are to shape site mechanisms, there should be no quality control.
4:59 PM
But if you take a survey of those on the basketball court, find that it's mostly men, and hear women talking about how they want to play on those courts, doesn't 2+2=4 there?
By surveying a large enough group of people one can find evidence of anything, including bigfoot and UFO.
stack overflow for women? (not serious, please don't hurt me)
@bro Sure, and voluntary response bias exists. But it seems likely enough that the small percentage of respondents who were women is significantly different than the percentage of women in the entire industry.
Yes, for any number of reasons. How about this: household chores not being divided equally, women in tech have less time left to participate on SO.
Or: women in tech have to deliver 150% to get the same compensation, so they can't afford to spend work time on SO.
5:07 PM
Or: women in tech see their position in the organization less stable (not a member of in-group), so cannot risk to be perceived as being off-task on company time.
Okay, conduct an experiment, see if that's true. Likely some effect there. But when people are telling you their personal experience of why they don't participate... listening can solve their issue. Sure, maybe they're not representative of all $group. But it's at least something.
Why do woman programmers get less salary?
@hichris123 nobody seems to care why I no longer answer anything
I'm in the "cares too much about site quality but unable to answer the good questions" minority
Yeah, I hope this effort by SE will focus on both becoming more inclusive and weeding out low quality questions. Both are issues facing the community.
@JohnDvorak that is not limited to programmers sadly and weird enough
If anything you'd expect women of equal skill to be paid more, not less...
Maybe a form of prejudice where women are perceived to have less skill than they actually do?
5:42 PM
There is stuff written on the topic... my point is, if gender bias in tech industry exists at all, then surely SO does not hold monopoly on it. And whatever bias is present elsewhere can manifest itself in SO survey data.
@JohnDvorak TRIGGERED :p (not really :P)
6:16 PM
Let's see... what in the transcript of this room would make the best Twitter outrage thread?
Probably something involving a cat and sunglasses.
6:53 PM
@JohnDvorak welp, this. I lose more time to answer everytime I get more privileges to moderate the site...
It's relaxing to not care about the site's quality...
New Stack Overflow model
I think you like to be the victim // I think you like to be in pain // I think you make yourself a victim // Almost every single day
7:13 PM
When a comment is flagged, do moderators see whether the flag is by the author of the post being commented on?
Knowing this would help in evaluating the situation: if a comment is something that's only useful to the OP, and they read it already, it's obviously NLN.
7:35 PM
@JohnDvorak why you no longer answer anything?
See? I care. :)
2 hours ago, by John Dvorak
I'm in the "cares too much about site quality but unable to answer the good questions" minority
I wish I could provide a more detailed explanation
@JohnDvorak need translation to plain language... you mean you don't answer the "easy" questions out of principle, and let others do it instead?
I don't wish anyone to answer those questions that I refrain myself from answering.
Should I change my ways and start answering more?
@JohnDvorak if you just want rep then yes. If you want to do your small part in the endless fight of raising SO quality, then no.
I agree that nuking/not answering low quality questions will lead to better quality in the long run, but there's a line somewhere... and I have no clue where that line is being drawn.
Don't answer dups. Edit everything else that you answer. The notion that you shouldn't answer even when you can because the question is crap ignores the primary advantage of SO over traditional forums: editing.
7:48 PM
@Shog9 I think he means crap that can't be edited into good shape.
I do
e.g. some "this code isn't working, show me why plz", which is likely most of the "easy" questions.
Such as...?
Specific example
or even without "isn't working", just "I need to do X, plz guide me how to do that, I have no idea where to start".
Gotta be a question you could answer, and would answer save for your desire to not answer crap
7:50 PM
Here's a quick sample from the SOCVR room stackoverflow.com/questions/50089890/…
@Shog9 sec, I was about to answer one earlier today, let's see...
Q: Getting form’s select list values before form’s submission

FreddakosI want to get the values from selected “select list option fields” in a form, before submit the form, and use them as variables in my web page. For example: I have the form bellow: <form> <select name="test"> <option value="111">Something</option> <option value="222">Something</option> <option ...

this isn't crap, but obvious "do this for me".
@Shog9 I've found the problem with this is by the time I'm done editing and start writing my answer 3 other people have already written theirs and then I don't have a chance anymore
> I learned that what I need can be done with JavaScript, but unfortunately I am completely ignorant with JavaScript. Could anyone guides me?
See what I mean? ^
I guess your strategy works if you're planning on making an excellent question and really excellent answer out of it.
Then there are questions like these... stackoverflow.com/questions/50090640/…
7:52 PM
@ShadowWizard that's a question you'd want to answer?
@Shog9 that's a question that's answerable and not a duplicate, yet nothing we'd want to answer
@ShadowWizard So, what else is left after "do this for me" is removed? "Find a bug in my code?"
... I don't want to answer "please find the missing bracket in these 300 lines of code" either
not a dupe either
What do you want, then?
@Shog9 I can answer by giving full code, yes. Think I should do it?
7:54 PM
3 mins ago, by Shog9
Gotta be a question you could answer, and would answer save for your desire to not answer crap
@ShadowWizard if that sounds fun...
@bro I wish I knew
I recommend a turkey sandwich with cranberry sauce.
@Shog9 Would you be okay with people doing that? Answering low effort derivative garbage because it's fun for them?
Or maybe I'm just projecting.
I'm pretty sure I'd get raked over the coals if I answered every "Hey I can do this homework thing I might even enjoiy it" question
7:55 PM
This one's really easy to answer but I don't feel like it should be: stackoverflow.com/questions/50090665/…
@Shog9 it is... will take me ~10 minutes or so to write decent code, 15 if I want to test it before posting, but it's pure spoon feeding. We really want this in SO?
@user5389107 I answer low effort garbage when it's fun for me.
Haven't been suspended yet (well I was but not for that)
So, apparently it's okay to do that.
Sometimes I see SQL question where I think "That could be fun, but it's also a no-effort homework problem and if I tell OP how to solve this I will have done a disservice to their education and add another inconsequential unhelpful piece of writing to the site"
7:57 PM
Maybe answer with general advice that leads to the solution but stop short of actual code?
Like what would be a frame challenge on IPS but for SO? Interesting
@bro actually no, what is left is a pretty common AJAX usage. Anyone who spent few hours learning AJAX will be able to reach the same answer I was about to write by themselves.
@ShadowWizard Out of curiosity from an AJAX newbie, put a timer and periodically put forth an ajax request with the currently selected value and process the response?
@user5389107 Maybe begin to care less about asker and more about what's fun for you?

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