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5:00 AM
did ya'll have to embed the livequery in the code for the chats?
@drachenstern, I heard there was a repo for SE scripts somewhere.
If only I could remember what the link is
Hah :P
@RebeccaChernoff yes yes, I know, but I don't want to just assume I'm going to piggyback on someone else's repo :p
but if you'll have me I'll gladly use it ;)
We load the livequery script from a separate server currently.
But we don't like that and don't want to do that anymore. ):
5:01 AM
And attach the userscript on that script's load event.
@RebeccaChernoff I know, I know.
so if I want to load it from my userscript then will it be assumed to be cached?
But he asked how we do it right now. :P
@drachenstern How do you mean?
So what's the better way?
@TimStone I mean ... I don't know
5:02 AM
She wants to embed it in the userscript, I want to get rid of the dependency.
probably just that I want sleep
how will you get rid of the dependency?
That's always an option, you know.
I would think that embedding it would be the better option
For chat, it's possible to hook into the events in a way that doesn't require livequery.
@TimStone how's that?
5:04 AM
You can just listen in on the AJAX events and respond accordingly.
@TimStone how does that work?
With $.ajaxComplete
I'm a fan, since livequery hates me
I'm just not sure it is worth the effort to save 42kb. (;
5:08 AM
I just realized the element I'm concerned about will already be there on page load, not just show up I don't think
so I only have to worry about when it gets removed from the dom
And there's a button to click for that, so I'm good
@RebeccaChernoff Well, there's some issue surrounding someone wanting to use it in an independent script too. I don't think there's any protection as far as it being included twice goes, is there?
That being said, we should probably finally sometime kinda sorta get around to having that design discussion to cover such things :P
5:25 AM
So walk me through this someone, I already had a github acct, as shown by having opened two or three tickets, but what do I do to "join the project"? fork it to my own github account?
and I'm gonna guess from the name they don't support Hg do they?
I use hg-git without any issue (I don't use git)
So no, but yes by way of hg-git.
Alright, back pain is being relentless, back in a bit.
@TimStone fair enough. though our stuff is within a scope limiter isn't it?
I guess calling that script wouldn't be, meh.
5:41 AM
Yay iPhone. But yeah, the script basically replaces jQuery methods to do its work, so there's not much preventing that. We could always change that I guess, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to look into whether or not we needed it at all.
(the script being livequery, that is)
tim did you say you're on iOS?
Yeah, laying down until the pain goes away, heh. I'm too young to feel this old ;)
lol, I know that feeling
Ok, well then tomorrow I'll want to be walked through this hg-git stuff, cos apparently I'm doing something wrong
but for now, I'm gonna go lay down too, but not for the same reason as you
Probably should work on my posture, hahah.
5:54 AM
Alright, g'night
Geez you two. I'm sorry - do I need to get off your lawn?
No, but feel free to find me a more comfortable chair
LOL Talk about random. So, our local PHP meetup group has been having a discussion on the mailing list about password security and someone linked an old blog post. In the summary of that post I find:
> We learned that in a password hashing scheme, speed is the enemy. We learned that MD5 was designed for speed. So, we learned that MD5 is the enemy. Also Jeff Atwood and Richard Skrenta.
5:56 AM
In case you're curious.
BTW, some of you ubergeeks may be interested in Symatec's analysis of Stuxnet: symantec.com/connect/blogs/updated-w32stuxnet-dossier-available
6:14 AM
thanks george that is cool :)
It's a freaking long read. I'm only half way through it. However, it's definitely some cool stuff. That worm wasn't slapped together by some script kiddies, that's for sure.
6:46 AM
WTF, #stackoverflow #hacked or genuine error?? http://imgur.com/BhQUq
Hmmm, Google's got a new header bar, but only for the search pages
@RebeccaChernoff ROFL
@YiJiang tis in gmail also
@YiJiang I'm pretty sure I saw it gdocs as well.
Nope, I'm wrong about that.
Hmmm, well reader doesn't have it yet
6:53 AM
Anybody watch HIMYM? That tweet makes me think "oh, honey"
@RebeccaChernoff heh. That acronym took quite a number of cycles to process. (I've watched it a few times, but not with any regularity.)
watch the whole thing - there's a jump in the middle
LOL nice
I think that tweet totally fits. q:
Yah, definitely.
You should tweet that link back to them. :)
7:02 AM
Haha. I was nice:
@simondowdles What does it say at the top of that image? (: Also see http://bit.ly/exU2Jx.
Yah, I wouldn't expect you to do it, but it sure would be funny.
Depends on if/how he replies! q:
Hmm...I wonder how Gnome's "this window has been running a long time" thingy works. I've been doing a whole bunch of rotates in GIMP and it finally popped up. (Normally, it shows up much earlier, I hit cancel and it doesn't bother me for a while.)
yawns Back pain defeated! Hoorah.
@TimStone Yay!
7:11 AM
Now to decide if I should bother trying to work, or just rest up for my 10:00 meeting..
Backpain is regular companion of mine. Thankfully, it has been defeated tonight as well. :)
Success all around :D
I'm soooo glad I plunked down the cash for this used ergo chair. It hasn't eliminated all of my pains, but it has gone a long way.
Oh, btw @TimStone, @YiJiang - if either of you want to post the SE[Chat]Modifications userscripts on StackApps and get the rep, feel free. Otherwise I'll post tomorrow.
Yeah, I'm still trying to pick up a new chair...like most things I've "been meaning to do" it hasn't been done yet. :/
@RebeccaChernoff makes note
7:14 AM
Once I can afford it, I'll likely buy a new one, all properly sized for me and what not. In the meantime, this does just fine. Much better than a new chair from a department store or whatever.
The cushion in the best of those seems to last about year. =/
This one came from Walmart or something...it's starting to fall apart anyway, heh. To be fair to the chair though, half the problem comes from my terrible slouching while sitting, but.
And just on time, as my clothes finish washing, it started raining
A good chair will promote better sitting posture. Though, I do still find myself leaning forward and slouching at times. I blame the desk for that. I sure do miss the nice keyboard tray I had at my old job.
@YiJiang I take it you hang 'em out to dry?
7:19 AM
@YiJiang did you list the election page as an app on stackapps.com yet?
I have a tendency to sit very far forward in my chair, so my back is all bent.
Q: Stack Exchange Elections Statistics Page

Yi Jiang The Stack Exchange Elections Statistics Page is a simple single-page website that displays information on election candidates participating in the Stack Exchange 2011 Moderator Elections. It pulls together information normally found in each candidate's profile as well as their Meta and SE-w...

@JeffAtwood Ah, I see you found it
ooh, I have one I can list.. the math.se "I hate return entering a comment" one
@JeffAtwood lol
7:24 AM
There was new activity on that question the other day, it made me sad.
> I think it is absolutely shocking user-interface design to have "pressing Enter to submit" behaviour when textareas are involved where the Enter key is used for creating new lines and paragraphs
except, we don't support paragraphs and newlines in comments, of course
That whole fiasco was sadly hilarious. I'm picky about things working the way I want them to, but sometimes I just grin, bear it and adapt. Sheesh.
People are afraid of a wrapping single-line input, apparently.
@JeffAtwood, have you gone over your thumbnail png creation quota for the decade yet? (;
I can't help it, I am awesome at creating thumbnails
lol I'm gonna use math.se in my screenshot
7:29 AM
tis only fitting!
shakes head
4 mins ago, by Tim Stone
shakes head
I should be an olympic medalist in thumbnailing
7:37 AM
Q: Disable enter for submitting comments

Jeff Atwood About This user script disables the default behavior of the enter key submitting a comment. With this script installed, you must explicitly click the Add Comment button to submit your comment. Source If you have Firefox+GreaseMonkey, Opera, or Google Chrome, try this GreaseMonkey script tha...

question: what browsers support the greasemonkies now?
@JeffAtwood Almost every, though support for some of it's functions depends
As long as you stay away from the GM_* functions, just about everything, even IE and Opera.
right but how does one install a greasemonkey script in each browser?
I showed how to do it in chrome in the above ^^
is it the same in other browsers?
For Firefox you obviously need the extension
For Opera you need to download the script and put it in a folder
IE ?
7:41 AM
For Safari and IE you need a plugin, the instructions should be available on their websites
In Firefox I believe you just click the .user.js link once you've got greasemonkey installed. In IE/Opera you have to have an addon and then download into a specific folder, ummmm, in Safari you need Greasekit and then I think you can just click the .user.js and it'll pick it up.
instructions for Chrome, IE, Safari, Firefox would cover 99% of real world users on our sites
@RebeccaChernoff that might be a good thing for you to post on stackapps as a faq reference for [scripts]
I have the chrome walkthrough, we just need IE, Safari, Firefox walkthroughs
^ Moshe has a guide to installing scripts on Safari
7:42 AM
Opera, seriously, if you are using Opera then you have bigger problems than how to install the greasemonkies
In Opera you set a folder in your preferences and then from then on it is native support, no addons or anything.
@RebeccaChernoff actually the tag wiki for [script] would be an EXCELLENT place to put this info
mm, agreed. I'm fading fast here though so it's on the list for tomorrow.
I don't see the edit tag wiki option on Stack Apps, weird
@RebeccaChernoff let's try to get that done tomorrow.. I have the chrome one in my question
7:46 AM
Yup, absolutely. If I do it now it is likely to have a zillion `b`s or something in it from me falling asleep on the keyboard. >_<
because, I would like to blog the scripts thing on friday
G'night :P
@TimStone g'night
7:47 AM
Bah, I can't sleep in tomorrow, I have to actually wake up! 2am is gonna kill me already. q:
@RebeccaChernoff Hey, I have to be up by 10!
@GeorgeMarian Oh no, I'm not leaving. That'd be blasphemous.
@RebeccaChernoff Bah, you people and your jobs. ;)
omg so much better.. I hated that old favicon for wordpress.se
hated hated hated
@TimStone Hah. I didn't expect you to leave, but I did find it surprising that you'd be going to be so early.
7:50 AM
@JeffAtwood Don't you review every bit of design that goes out on Stack Exchange sites?
not every pixel
and besides, you often have to see things "live" and marinate in it for a while to really see
I mean, we are still figuring things out about core Q&A community and it has been.. what.. almost 2.5 years now?
heyyy @SMark
@GeorgeMarian Heheh
Hi @Jeff, apparantly, I am first time here
I have been away since chat function implemented on so. :D
until i got email for codegolf beta site :D heh
@TimStone nice, edit that in as the screenshot to the post
(but don't touch my thumbnails.. if anyone changes my thumbnails, I keel you)
because, well, my thumbnails are the best, Jerry. The best!!
7:56 AM
yes @SMark I remember you became very busy at work
of course we all know your real work is at Stack Overflow, so we forgive you. For now.
yeah, i moved to different department within same company, just buzying, I might need to find new one.
I tried to find some last time, but since I am at japan
we love you long time. FOR WORK RELATED REASONS I MEAN.
I don't see much positions there
7:58 AM
yeah Japan would be tough.
@JeffAtwood I need to get over my hang-up of having company names in my CV and post mine already. It's not like that information isn't basically public already anyway.
@JeffAtwood Suggested edit on the [script] tag on StackApps is blocked because there's one suggested edit pending on it stackapps.com/suggested-edits/8
@yi done
@SMark of course, feel free to reference your Stack Overflow profile and your CV if you have one.. I think smart employers should be looking at this stuff
thanks @jeff, I will, and I might need to polish my career with some programming stuff, since I am currently jack of all trades :P
8:03 AM
@SMark you have generalist badge so we can prove that
@SMark man i miss japan , are you working in tokyo ?
heh, yes, I used to generalist in real life too :P
python, javascript, regex, php, ruby, c# -- generalist :)
yes @reno I am at tokyo
8:04 AM
stackoverflow.com/badges/15/generalist only 182 users with this badge FYI
I was feel rewarded when you implemented that badge :D thanks
@JeffAtwood, did you see yeterday's suggestions for chat badges? :)
@Jeff, no, we never got as far as meta, it wasn't that serious... :) hang on...
> Also, this stat would be an orphan stat in your profile. I would prefer to see a silver "talkative" badge that would be something like 20 stared comments in chat.
8:13 AM

Silly badges for chat

21 hours ago, 19 minutes total – 43 messages, 5 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 13 secs ago by Benjol

The fact that you started the conversation name with "Silly" doesn't give me much confidence :P
oh god
20 hours ago, by Benjol
@MarcGravell, I think when if you are talking about chat & badges, seriousness is somewhat in the rear-view mirror :)
@Benjol Oh, you pre-acknowledged this...very good, hahah.
The idea is serious, the propositions are only half serious, the names not at all
More badges for chat sounds like a good idea to us, obviously :)
8:16 AM
@benjol I totally support your idea that /review should be in random order on SO by the way
I just haven't had time to do it, and Sam is on walkabout currently
I'd have the "fat fingered" badge for sure.
@JeffAtwood Good to know :) How about the idea for "seen that, remove it from my list please" ?
@JeffAtwood There's also a few bugs that recently came up. Did he fix those?
I think random fixes a lot of these concerns personally.. when there are 600 posts every day to "review", nobody is going beyond page 5 and even getting to page 6 is a Skeet-level accomplishment.
@YiJiang jarrod is working the list
I opted to start in the middle, heh.
8:18 AM
I question the value of pagination at all on /review
I think it should be more like "here's 20 random things to review, click this button to get 20 more random things to review"
@JeffAtwood Well yes, if it's random order, then you can just refresh :)
but sam is so tied to his precious sorts
We'll distract him with syrup while you make the changes.
maybe Marc should work on that
@JeffAtwood, I'd still like it to work a bit like an inbox though, so you can triage your way through with "yes, no, yes, no", rather than "no, ignore, no, ignore, no ignore again"
8:20 AM
there is no viable way for us to track that
@TimStone Well if he's on walkabout it's his fault :)
@JeffAtwood too expensive?
@Benjol Can't be that hard - I've certainly seen client side scripts to remove posts you have viewed before from the SO homepage
sure, one list of 1.4 million integers per user, how crazy could it get?
@YiJiang, hmm, so you want me to script that do you? :) I guess I could try. I haven't done a GM script in like... eh long time, before they beefed up the security
@Benjol I already have that script - with some simple modification it should work on the /review page
8:29 AM
@YiJiang, but where would you put the 1.4 million integers? :)
@JeffAtwood do things get removed from the list when a moderator does something, or already when enough people have flagged them?
What I don't like is the lingering feeling that I'm flagging things that already have enough flags
@Benjol marc will work on adding the random
@TylerChacha did you list your scripts on stackapps.com/?tab=scripts yet? hmmm?
@JeffAtwood No. I just picked someone up at the Airport..
It is the only good reason to be awake at 12:30am..
@Benjol I'll tell @MarcGravell to chat with you about it later
give him a few hours to look at it first, since it isn't his code
@JeffAtwood no worries, it's not me who wields the SOB here anyway :)
(Stick Of Blame) before you flag me :)
no problem, Complainy McComplainerson.
8:43 AM
@JeffAtwood It's what I do best, apparently :)
@Benjol ahem
you're right that the paging is completely insane on /review
I mean once you have more than say 90 items
@YiJiang, oh, you think you're the best do you? :)
Well I am going to sleep. All of you keep making more work for @JeffAtwood. He needs something to do..
@JeffAtwood For me it's having the same eyeballs on the same few items which is crazy (except for @Tim of course, who says he starts in the middle)
8:44 AM
@Benjol I weld the Wheel o' Blame, for goodness sake.
well in waffles' defense he wanted new users to get the Colbert Bump
hence the sorting by score descending
@YiJiang so? That makes you Blamey McBlameyson :)
that's only important on smaller sites though IMO
@Benjol What, have you not seen me shout at the team for all the HTML abuse?
I learned all my HTML from w3schools.com -- I got my accreditation there
8:48 AM
@Yi Oh yes, Obsessy McObsessyson :)
@Benjol Being correct is not obsessive. ;)
@JeffAtwood I didn't hear that, la la la la la...
@YiJiang obsessing about other people's correctness is. (And don't come near me with your <B>, I've got a <TABLE> and </TABLE> to hand)
hey, I tweeted your thing and it went crazy. I did my part.
see http://w3fools.com/
> Retweeted by pasxal and 100 others
Wow, you learned me something. I always believed w3schools was w3c for dummies. that's EE-level darstedlyness
ok TTFN. And remember, statistically speaking, we will all be dead forever.
8:55 AM
@JeffAtwood, is that the final release of Windows 7 SP1 or the RC?
ah, it's on general release Feb 22nd.
10:02 AM
> Should young children be allowed in restaurants? Absolutely! Cooked properly, they're extremely tasty. - The Child Catcher of TW1, Twickenham bbc.co.uk/blogs/magazinemonitor/2011/02/your_letters_1094.shtml
pokes @MarcGravell with the giant Stick of Annoyance
stop poking me!
how might I be of service?
Fix Markdown mini! Seriously, some of it's parsing rules just doesn't make sense
Look at the history of that quote
talk to @balpha about that - that's his thing
your pointy stick has great summoning power today
@MarcGravell \o/
I shall don my +3 shirt of deflection
btw - @benjol - you wanted somet'?
10:10 AM
@YiJiang what are you talking about? I think requiring ]( in link definitions not be separated makes a whole lot of sense
@MarcGravell Well, Jeff said you'd ask me, but it's just an old suggestion to provide a 'random' sort option in /review. I'm not sure I can add much more than that
oh, right, that - yes, that is what I have spread in front of me
actively working on it
until @Yi started poking me
(What I also wanted was to be able to 'dismiss' things that are either ok or I don't know how to handle, but he said that was too complicated, but that was just him :)
@balpha Bolding URLs, it just doesn't work
hmmm... guess so
10:13 AM
@MarcGravell & @balpha, just for context: @YiJiang was coveting my Jeff-bestowed title of Complainy McComplainerson earlier. He's struggling to prove his credentials right now...
I hear there's space in the MacWhiney clan...
@YiJiang > Should young children be allowed in restaurants? Absolutely! Cooked properly, they're extremely tasty. - The Child Catcher of TW1, Twickenham
@balpha How do you view the source of a message again? I remembered there is an URL for it, but I can't remember...
Spaces, hmmm...
10:19 AM
Hi! :)
@Nyuszika7H, they let you back in? :)
@Benjol yep :) I was only banned from MSO chat for around 10-15 mins
@YiJiang, could html5 storage be used to keep the ignored ids? that would take the burden off the servers...
@Benjol Definitely, but it's not a good solution
There'd be no way of knowing when you could empty the list :)
10:36 AM
Q: Data Explorer is down.

KobiI can't create or run queries on the data explorer, I'm getting an ASP.NET yellow screen of death. Please bring it back so that I may fulfill my statistical needs.

Look what happens when @waffles is out :(
checks if giant stick can reach that far
I know there was some work happening on that server, but I was under the impression it was "up"
ah, looks like the db went
11:34 AM
@Benjol - that change is in, btw (probably released tomorrow) - was there a meta question about that?
@Marc, I think so, let me look. You mean the random change?
random changes are the norm for us...
Q: 'Random' sort order on /review pages

BenjolOn SO, at least, there are more than 600 questions/answers to review. I figure that no-one is going to plough their way through all 600, so maybe a default 'random' sort order would be a good idea, so that we get more eyes on more posts. Just a thought.

@MarcGravell, while you're in the code, can you answer the question that Jeff forgot to answer?
3 hours ago, by Benjol
@JeffAtwood do things get removed from the list when a moderator does something, or already when enough people have flagged them?
an excellent question - I'll have to look at another bit of code to see the answer to that!
don't know, off the top of my head
I know they disappear if you flag them - but please don't flag like crazy ;p
(i.e. just to clean down the list)
@MarcGravell the temptation is there...
Well if it doesn't take too long, I'd be interested to know, because currently it's one of the things that keeps me away from /review
11:39 AM
personally, I don't buy Jeff's argument there - this kinda ties into the "meh" voting we do in chat. And the numbers are a lie to - it isn't "users * posts", it is "users who looked at review, and only the posts tey explicitly clicked 'meh' on"
which in many ways is a vote just the same as an up-vote, down-vote, or flag. And we keep them, and manage to figure out when a user has upvoted etc
Personally, I can't see a problem enabling a "dismiss" vote, and tying it in such that [n] dismissals automatically removes them from the list
but to answer the question: it looks at the time interval and the qualifying factors. If you have flagged it, it goes away - but otherwise: it is simply "does it still qualify"
the most notable "nay" there being "it got deleted"
@MarcGravell, information overload, parsing
1. What's meh voting in chat?
10k users - if they see a flag appear, and click "no this isn't flagworthy", we do some math on that; number of people supporting the flag vs number of people ignoring the flag
ok. I guess the question then in /review is whether you want flag+meh or flag+dunno+notflagworthy
11:48 AM
so in Q&A terms (/review), if 5 people looked at a "first post" and didn't think it was a problem, and nobody has explicitly flagged it - it is probably OK
@Marc, hm, though it might just be that they don't feel particularly qualified to judge.
and by "looked at" here, I mean they probably clicked something to say "go away, but nicely"
@Benjol - hmmm; I see your point
tricky, huh?
I don't really like three-way choices (see Area51 voting, nobody ever really gets the hang of that, I reckon). but 'go away' is potentially ambiguous
good/bad/pass :)
TBH, sometimes I just feel too lazy to do everything I think I ought to (flag, comment, downvote...)
Auto-comment would be pretty cool. "Your post has been judged and found wanting, please correct your ways" :)
11:51 AM
well take what we get ;p you're under no obligation, etc
except the MORAL OBLIGATION to your SO peers ;p
being nice to noobs is a noble aim, but when you're up to your neck in them and having trouble breathing, the temptation to just nuk'em is quite strong ;)
Question: how do things happen from the moderator side. That is, would my idea of removing things from the list once they have 'enough' flags make any sense?
Typically I go to the list now and see things that have been downvoted 4 times on the first page, and think "there's enough people doing this already"
12:25 PM
@Marc How about your dismiss button only removes it from your list?
@badp, that's the idea
I think @MarcGravell was musing about whether you could use the dismissal of multiple people to infer that the post wasn't bad
And that's where it gets a bit tricky
I'm just spitballing, in truth
(I say that's the idea, it's what I meant anyway)
I guess that if absolutely everyone ignored a post, it could end up in 'limbo' for ever, but that's already the case now - if everyone ignores a post, it stays in the list for ever anyway... doesn't it?
I like to think that someplace, somewhere in that list of first answers
there's mine
and yours too.
@badp, wow! that prompted me to go and look up my first answer, to discover that it's my second most upvoted answer. Things have gone down hill since then, apparently :(
12:34 PM
What was the question? "How to add numbers in jQuery?"
"Where can F# actually save time and money?" ;)
I'm afraid I'm the only person here who has never really used jquery... :)
captures the jQuery virgin for the offering ritual
12:51 PM
just wait until we wrap you in a jquery object!!

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