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why not central computation system on the north pole - free cooling 😂 with just a bit lag and some slightly pricey cables (coz length)
12:57 AM
2:23 AM
Best Amazon Prime Day deal is an instant pot… Purchased!!!
I don't really know what an instant pot is, but since bluefeet recommended it... ordered.
There's no link. -1, poor recommendation.
But with a link it might be flagged as spam.
:P Maybe "here's how to order!"?
1) go to amazon.com 2) search prime day deals for "instant pot" 3) choose one of three offers
2:33 AM
One of three? What if I buy the wrong one?
Life'd be too boring without risk. I picked one with the lowest ratio deal price / list price.
Life's good, when you're a ninja block
You actually got it?
Got what?
Yes, I did. I thought for some time to expand my cooking range beyond microwaving.
2:35 AM
11 mins ago, by Bookend
I don't really know what an instant pot is, but since bluefeet recommended it... ordered.
Disregard, I don't read right
@Bookend You could buy a non-instant pot... :P
copper pots are good
Non-instant cooking sounds like it'd take too long.
2:47 AM
Why should I have to click "show 1 more comment" to get "this conversation has been moved to chat.", why it's not shown by default? ._.
I wonder how many invitations to chat succeeded
I tried to lure a potential prey to a chat to troll the user to my heart's content, fish wouldn't bite the bait. Very disappointed ...
@meatball The Workplace? All 0-score comments are hidden behind the link no matter what.
But that user tried to pick up a fight with me first
Ok, everything makes sense suddenly.
2:51 AM
That's too strong a statement.
3:41 AM
A: Rate limit suggested edits

Shog9As of a few seconds ago, this limit is now active network-wide: at-most 20 pending suggested edits per editor on beta sites at-most 5 pending suggested edits per editor on graduated sites These limits are based on my analysis of the speed at which edits are generally approved and the number o...

poor grammar nazis 😂
earn 2K & you can nit-pick as much as you want.
Oo wasn't aware that suggested edits were from low rep users only
wait, why am I calling myself a low rep user
that was fast, still got my flag in
3:50 AM
@Shog9 It's common sense that no charges should be fired at April fools day pranks right?
It's easy to do. Simply alter your email address by adding an + with some extra text to your email address. An example would be "giampaolofalqui+socareers@gmail.com". Anything after (and including the) + and before @ in an email address is ignored. Then, you can go to gravatar and upload a different avatar for that specific email address. — Will 14 hours ago
@Telkitty that depends on the severity of the prank
@Shog9 So you finally put an end to the ever so common user that suggests 20-100 edits changing tags and then clutters up the SE queue all by themselfes
@Magisch yeah, reviewers are a shared resource and all that - gotta be willing to work with others.
Although to be honest, folks who do this are fairly rare.
I see about one or two a month
But thats mainly because I have no life and go to the review queues almost daily on work days
@Quill prank not crime, with tag April-fools ... or something similar
pranks are just crimes committed by children
don't call people who play Pokemon Go childish :p
Especially as most of them are in their 20's
DigitalOcean article on firewall policy references SF and Sec.SE answers
why did I not know about this? askjonskeet.com
4:23 AM
I wonder if that URL is blocked in comments too
@bjb568 where are you?
sd k
5 minutes and I'm the second flagger?
sd k
wtf the link in the title
spam a product and increase google ranking in one post
3 messages moved to Sandbox
4:36 AM
@hichris123 if you move the smokey reports, can you move the responses too?
I could but then that would invite you to the Sandbox. :/ I'm fine with spamming Smokey with invites, but users on the other hand...
[ SmokeDetector ] Link at end of answer: How to hide an app from the Launchpad? by omparts on apple.stackexchange.com
4:53 AM
Is there some way to see a global flag summary?
I'd be interested in how many spam flags I have globally :p
[ SmokeDetector ] URL in title, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body, pattern-matching website in title: phytolyft.com/magna-force-plus-reviews/ by robbinwizely on workplace.stackexchange.com
5:26 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] Pattern-matching website in answer: Change start of threaded text path in Illustrator by Tysha on graphicdesign.stackexchange.com
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in body, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: What is VitaPulse? by mallorygerena on superuser.com
sd 3k
@SmokeDetector k
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, pattern-matching website in body: Is Dianabol (D-Bal) An effective Muscle Enhancer? by gracieycook on drupal.stackexchange.com
sd k
[ SmokeDetector ] Link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: En utilisant ce produit, je l'ai perdu environ 20 lbs sofar by user567742 on askubuntu.com
[ SmokeDetector ] Link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: suppose you and you yourself might be amazed to by dersonjuri on drupal.stackexchange.com
5:52 AM
sd 2k
6:08 AM
@Pandya It's Magisch's fault.
6:48 AM
@JamesENL Taipei.
7:08 AM
@bjb568 What I meant was that you've been very quiet. Hows your work going?
7:19 AM
@JamesENL I think.... I will continue playing on my 3ds.
Is there any office of StackExchange in India?
just found this pearl in some code I was "gifted" for refactoring....
@Pandya I don't think so. I think there's only New York, Denver and London? Though they do have a bunch of remote people.
private void GetSomeEntity() // SomeEntity is the name of the managed entity, here removed
// some code that loads some data from the db and then does nothing with it
Just refactor it so it does nothing faster.
7:27 AM
@Bart I think I will substitute it with something like Thread.Sleep(3000). This way, I will still leave some improvement margin for future releases :P
Please don't
it'll end up on DailyWTF
^ life goal
@Bart London, good choice b4 Brexit
Poor @Oded ... being the best, but on an isolated island.
7:31 AM
@JamesENL You really want to know the best part? The joke was actually based on someone I knew in the past. He actually did that, multiple times... Just leave some ".Sleep" aound in the code and every time the client asks for improvements, reduce the "SleepDelay" global constant a little... and then put a "General performance optimization" in the release notes...
thats cancer
Ah, the glorious days before proper version control, pull requests and code reviews.
So, no... and not even remote work from India.
(i.e. one from India who want to work for SE will have to relocate)
@Derpy Wouldn't that be considered industrial sabotage?
Working at SE must be one of those google-esque things
@Magisch probably would. I never said I approved that -_-'. Atlas, I haven't saw him in a while... I hope he doesn't really do that anymore.
7:41 AM
@ShadowWizard that's not necessarily true? They just don't have remote workers there "yet"?
@ShadowWizard Thats probably untrue.
The job postings say that the location is irrelevant to remote work.
@ShadowWizard Nope, that's not the case
See. Lies @ShadowWizard. Lies!! Trying to keep the Indian people down are you? Outrage! I demand hashtags to express our frustration!
7:58 AM
<inception> maybe @ShadowWizard was trying to troll you guys </inception>
The dry fact is that India is not in the list... hence I can understand that they don't have people from India working remotely. (e.g. @Kasra isn't living in India as far as I know)
@TIPS you have any proof?
@ShadowWizard "they don't have people from India working remotely" != "one from India who want to work for SE will have to relocate"
rofl though
This one company has the most ridiculous non compete clause I've ever seen
"For 8 years after leaving [redacted], the employee is not permitted to work for, volunteer for, or perform any activities for any company or operation, for profit or non profit, that sells, manufactures or uses any form of electronic data processing"
I don't know what local laws are like where that firm is, but that sounds utterly unenforceable
clauses preventing employees from hopping to competing companies are common, but people tend to almost always hopping to competing companies because of skill match
8:10 AM
I have personally signed quite a few contracts that had such clauses
And generally no company can prevent you from making a living practicing your profession.
@Bart hmm.... well, that might be true, just hard to believe nobody from India tried to get employed yet.
@ShadowWizard that I can agree with
@ShadowWizard I imagine working at SE is notoriously hard to get into
@Magisch that's totally illegal, anywhere.
8:14 AM
They probably get thousands of applications a month
@ShadowWizard illegal??
not here
especially in R & D departments
@Telkitty so that's sad.... here we have law allowing people to work where they want, and this restriction is against this law, no matter how formal they try to make it.
well here in germany some companies outright prohibit you from working at all X years after you leave, regardless of what you'd be working as
8:17 AM
Company can also sign their employees on a contract saying "rape is allowed here". It won't make it legal.
And that is legal
[ SmokeDetector ] Blacklisted username, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: I feel like I'm getting just about everything I need which feels good by kivier juriya on drupal.stackexchange.com
@Magisch pretty sure that a good lawyer will prove otherwise and beat the company in court.
@ShadowWizard Nah, that has been done a couple times, afaik.
Although that usually comes with the stipulation that for that time, they continue paying you in full
for like high level exec positions
[ SmokeDetector ] Pattern-matching website in answer: How do I copy text from my PC to my phone? by lesliecart on android.stackexchange.com (@meatball)
8:25 AM
@ShadowWizard Because 1) exec might have human resources obtained while at the position, and can take away clients from the company 2) traders/fund managers know positions of a company and so can trade against that position. 3)Research & Development is generally a cost to a company, so whatever those researches produced by a team in years can be stolen by a single ex-employee.
set up another redis server today
tomorrow I set up the node web server and haproxy
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer: What to do if I lost my passport before flight in another country? by sunny on travel.stackexchange.com
sd k
9:02 AM
@JamesENL Fine. I'm just in another timezone.
9:13 AM
Q: Is there a UX SE research portal like the one in Stack Overflow?

Michael LaiDo we have anything like the research portal on Stack Overflow for UXSE where they do annual surveys and release the results? I would love to see this done because it helps all of us to understand the nature of the industry as it changes and evolves.

9:34 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] Blacklisted username, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: pretty quick, soreness was only for about 48 hours. With over by kivier juriya on superuser.com
9:57 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in body, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: Shred Maxx Create daily goals. Expect to by JustinRoark on drupal.stackexchange.com
10:35 AM
@ShadowWizard Yes, I'm waterproof, radicalproof, and a bunch of other proofs.
10:45 AM
80 proof?
Perhaps, I haven't tested
11:09 AM
we should test for ponies-proof too.
@Derpy Will you volunteer some ponies to break in the process?
@Magisch I propose we simply post cute MLP related pictures until either he develops sugar-overdose pony-diabetes or I get bored. Whatever comes first.
11:23 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] Pattern-matching website in answer, blacklisted user: 2 factor authentication - cost effective solution for a web startup by Sophie Stephens on security.stackexchange.com
[ SmokeDetector ] URL in title, pattern-matching website in body, pattern-matching website in title: Revitol Warning www.potentbodyformation.com/revitol-hair-removal-cream/ by normaboger3 on arduino.stackexchange.com
11:51 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] URL in title, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body, pattern-matching website in title: supplementscloud.com/trimplex-elite/ by Thaveres Jil on arduino.stackexchange.com
1 hour later…
1:00 PM
When I pass a known-bad audit in LQP, the answer is usually displayed in its deleted state but sometimes it's "answer not found". Could be the difference between mod-deleted and review-deleted?
@ShadowWizard yes, they can. Trusted users and all that. Potential for abuse is minimal.
@Bookend Do you have an example? Your theory doesn't sound correct - I've seen mod deleted posts instead of "not found", usually on spam
As for why we allow editing on self-deleted answers - IIRC, because those pop back into the review queue when un-deleted, so will be visible.
@Andy I think it's the other way: whenever an answer is shown as deleted, I see a mod was involved.
@Bart big fish in small pond ;)
1:02 PM
Though - pond seems to be growing smaller :/
You could coaster over to europe
So bad
I scared oded away with my infernally bad pun
[ SmokeDetector ] Link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: Trimplex Elite perdre les graisses indésirables by sartajsing7 on arduino.stackexchange.com
1:08 PM
so, which one is worse: big fish in small pond or small fish in small pond with a cat nearby?
Breast cancer is the most commonly diagnosed cancer among women in Australia (excluding non-melanoma skin cancer) and around 15,934 women and 150 men will be diagnosed with the disease this year.
I never knew breast cancer affects men too
maybe some guys have man boobs
1:36 PM
@NathanOliver That's the perfect argument for removing the accept vote, which already has community consensus among SE veterans on MSE chat. The accept vote gives the loudest voice to the person who knows the least about the topic: the poor bloke who was so lost that he shamefully asked a question on Stack Overflow. — bjb568 9 mins ago
@bjb568 Magnificently worded. This statement have to be cast in granite! — Your Common Sense 5 mins ago
YCS praises the words of bjb ... I'm not sure I like where this is heading ...
@Bart they are now allies :p
Sometimes I feel like we people on chat lose touch with the other site users regularly
YCS is from Russia, bjb is based in NYC. Putin is from russia, Trump is based in NYC. Putin praised Trump, YCS praised bjb. Coincidence? I think not!
I hope so, I would rather be in touch with people in real life than people on other sites
1:51 PM
Flawless analysis! Never mind I've never been to NY.
I'm from southern germany
2:19 PM
Telkitty's broad generalisations continue to astound and astonish the audience
most of the times I am just joking
somebody posted that pokemon sprite mixer in PPCG chat and now the entire page of live transcript is filled with pictures of them
one site's noise is comparably better than others
2:34 PM
@Oded kind of funny you use this term, because Trusted Users can't do that... ;)
@ShadowWizard :P
Did I respond to tersely here?
Downvoters should tell the reason why. — Arihant 6 mins ago
@Oded also, what about my second question? :)
2 hours ago, by Oded
As for why we allow editing on self-deleted answers - IIRC, because those pop back into the review queue when un-deleted, so will be visible.
@amanaPlanaCAnalPAnaMA nah, that's still fine.
@Oded thanks! Really, review queue? What review?
2:36 PM
@ShadowWizard Ok... Although I was the one who downvoted... And I did explain why ;-)
@amanaPlanaCAnalPAnaMA heh, true. :)
@ShadowWizard either the late answers or first posts, I think.
@Oded oh, as if the answer was just posted?
@ShadowWizard I just did not start my comment with an unneeded -1
(that would be confusing a bit)
2:37 PM
I think. But don't quote me on that ;)
@Quill You mean pokemon.alexonsager.net ? Were you trying to keep all the spam fun for the PPCG room??
@Oded hmm.... wonder how I can check it...
(I want to add it to my answer on MSE)
I am trying to recall the reasoning for not doing same for answers. I think it was because they have more visibility in certain places, so the community can deal with them.
ffs it ended in a chat flag
@Quill pretty boring by the way. Even the pony creator is better
2:42 PM
@Oded what I vaguely remember is that preventing self edits on self deleted question is made to avoid users having "downvote shield".
Isn't it the case?
@ShadowWizard IIRC, it was also to avoid spammer going "spam post, delete, wait, wait, undelete, profit!"
@Oded but spammer can still do that, he just can't edit.
A troll user did that a few weeks ago when we were trying to get delete votes on a SO question
@ShadowWizard true. I am thinking of something else, I guess.
deleted it, waited 20 minutes for everyone to pass and undeleted
2:44 PM
@Oded Yup, me too... :/
@Quill well, this can't really be avoided...
I can't recall the logic behind that, sorry.
@Oded can you nudge someone who can? Not that important, but you know... trying to gather all the pieces. :)
I can try...
(just not with a sharp stick, I don't want him/her to blame me afterwards.... ;))
Asked in the cogro room. Will see if anyone recalls (I expect Shog will)
2:48 PM
That npm module does not seem to exist... We are not here to debug missing modules. Contact the developer. — Neal 2 mins ago
Am I right there? ^
that's a cordova plugin, the author probably doesn't understand the difference between the package repositories
in any case, that's not really helpful
I didn't know bjb-lang had a programming implementation: codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/134756/…
@Oded cogro room? What's that?
@Quill Hmmm the OP thinks it is js project and not Java? The docs say to do cordova plugin add com.ezartech.ezar.videooverlay and not npm install...
@ShadowWizard internal chatroom for our team
@ShadowWizard the community managers secret room. Community Growth.
2:54 PM
@Oded What do Community Managers do?
herd cats
@bluefeet I thought Pokemon...
@Oded huh! Well, not secret any more.... :P /cc @blue
@amanaPlanaCAnalPAnaMA that involves going outside
@bluefeet Also, depends on the "cat"
2:57 PM
@amanaPlanaCAnalPAnaMA because cordova is js? isn't it?
@Quill even so. I think for cordova plugins ypu need to use their CLI and not npm
yeah, the user thinks cordova package manager is npm. they're a bit confused
woah two cogro members in a few minutes, oded must be a level 99 summoner
3:12 PM
If you have community growths, you may want to see a doctor
Depends on their location.
@bluefeet you can give your phone to someone else and have him/her herd them for you.
@ShadowWizard - so, basically, when a deleted answer is edited and undeleted the question gets bumped. This doesn't happen for questions.
3:30 PM
@Oded really??? Any post about it somewhere? Doesn't sound right...
(not doubting you of course, lol...)
Those are the words of Shog ;)
I don't know if there is a post about that. I think we did post something when we introduced the no-edit rule for questions.
@Oded So if I now edit a deleted question then it gets undeleted, it won't change the question last activity?
A: Couple of issues with Roomba Turbocharging

OdedThe issue with retag being different from edit is moot, as retag is gone. With edit, it is now enabled on deleted questions, unless they are self deletes, as this can open a window to abuse (self delete, edit and later undelete immediately). You can now also see revisions on your own deleted qu...

@Shog9 yeah, but nothing about answers there, or why self delete, edit, and undelete is abuse)
A: How is the editing of deleted posts supposed to behave?

Shog9Let's try and nail this down, since it's a bit obscure (and recently changed again): No one can edit a locked post. The author of a deleted post can edit it unless it is a self-deleted question or locked as noted in #1. Folks with full editing rights can edit any deleted post except those rest...

@ShadowWizard see comments on Oded's post also
@ShadowWizard not "is abuse" but "can be abused in very hard-to-detect ways"
the problem is essentially that undeleting doesn't (or didn't anyway) set the LastModified date
3:34 PM
@Shog9 so it does for answers, and not for questions?
@ShadowWizard not a problem for answers, since editing a deleted answer does set the last modified date for the question (assuming that isn't deleted):
A: Stop an edited deleted answer from bumping the question

Shog9 EDIT: A nifty way to abuse the system (10k+ only!). Well, yeah. But easily detected by other 10k users and mods (the last activity shows your name and the link goes straight to the deleted answer) - if you pulled that trick too often on the same post, you'd probably find yourself called to a...

but for questions, you - the owner - control the visibility of the whole deal, so you can easily wait until the last modified date is old and then make it visible
an alternate solution here would be more intelligent bumping - showing these things to people who can view them and are likely to catch abuse coupled with some sort of trigger surrounding undeletion - but that's considerably more complicated than the current restriction and wasn't feasible when we wanted to allow question owners to view their deleted questions (which was when this was first implemented).
4:00 PM
Today's xkcd comic (Genetic Testing):
4:11 PM
The one thing I don't think I'll ever get used to abt working in tech is people being really annoyed for being offered high-paying jobs
4:55 PM
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in answer: Overcoming 255 character URI limit for files_managed by Riona on drupal.stackexchange.com
5:16 PM
I come home from work and suddenly the room is ablaze with blue activity
Is there a set date for the next Tavern Town hall event?
5:54 PM
not yet
The last town hall and subsequent google hangout was fun :o
6:15 PM
Well, it wasn't that complex:
> The query processor ran out of internal resources and could not produce a query plan. This is a rare event and only expected for extremely complex queries or queries that reference a very large number of tables or partitions. Please simplify the query. If you believe you have received this message in error, contact Customer Support Services for more information.
Ok, joining votes and posthistory is maybe too much (and magic columns)
So that was SEDE? Didn't know it had Customer Support Services.
I guess we can call Nick
He'll probably laugh at me ...
@Bookend but no, it is the actual sqlserver error that is shown.
6:44 PM
My friends play a game on first dates now where it's ask men to name three books they've read by female authors. It never goes well.
Uh, do poetry collections count?
> You’d consider yourself a low-level generalist who is comfortable with multiple languages such as C, Ruby, and Go
I think someone is confused by "low level"
Maybe they are referring to skill level.
@Bookend as in, poetry by women? Or poetry, compiled by women?
I would assume at least the former would count
6:54 PM
Poetry written by women. Somehow I thought that novel-length works are expected.
Which would put me in trouble, I'm afraid.
Presumably whoever is presenting the challenge gets to make up whatever arbitrary rules they want.
I'd be in trouble if books for children / YA were excluded, because:
1) I don't read as many books now as I did when I was a kid
2) The three female authors who come immediately to mind are all children's / YA authors.
@ShadowWizard no, not really. Just means we hadn't hired one yet. No requirement to relocate to a country where we do operate. Main requirement: good internet connection. Other requirements depend on actual role ;)
@Bart exactly right.
That said, this is pretty good (sitting next to me now):
@ShadowWizard Kasra is not Indian - he's Iranian (and these days - American too)
7:00 PM
Why does the Kindle edition cost more than hardcopy?
the digital binding is exquisite.
and has no competition in secondhand market
I get to deal with book pricing (standard, custom editions, digital editions) when textbook selection season begins. Not looking forward to it.
An idea: replace all textbooks with a link to Mathematics
7:09 PM
just need a site-specific extension to show the second-to-last revision of all answers, covered in random highligher marks.
7:21 PM
@Shog9 I'm a ravenous consumer of all things fantasy
suddenly your meta participation makes sense
madeleine l'engle is the first author that popped into my head
getting 200 answers on meta is a difficult thing
the 1k score was easy
I could probably not name 3 female authors because I must have read a good thousand fantasy books by now, and even for good ones I can at best remember the titles
we have a very luxurious and big library in town that allows you to lend out 4 books at a time for free
So every friday I fetch 4 of the fantasy books that the employee there recommends, they have a giant list there.
@Shog9 "Author of A Wrinkle in Time" was mine. Second was "author of the Earthsea books". Third was Jane Austen. I was a bit worried until I remembered all the mystery novels I've read over the years.
7:29 PM
@JonEricson same first as me then
Yeah. Her name was stuck in some lost corner of my brain.
my next two were laura ingalls wilder and agatha christie
Earthsea books were written by a woman?
well then
one of the few authors I remember the name of is rothfuss
As you can see, my fiction reading list is pretty much stuck at age 13
@Shog9 You read the wheel of time series?
7:31 PM
@Magisch nope
Its ridiculously long but also ridiculously good
I have, however, read a great deal about Rand Al'thor
Thats the main character in it :D
The german translation is like 30 books or so
That's what COPPA is for, then: to make sure that people read something before getting lost in the depth of the Web.
different Rand ;-P
7:32 PM
@Magisch Yes. And she's also written some excellent science fiction.
There is a mod on Scifi.SE named that
indeed there is
I know him from the charcoal HQ
charcoal HQ at this point is like 75% diamonds ever since undo became mod :p
one of the best things about SE is that you can use it to slack off at work and it still looks like you're working
or use it while waiting on someone for a meeting and still feel like you're doing something worthwile
One of the worst things about working for SE is that it looks like you are slacking off when you are working.
Working at SE is probably much like working at google
for outsiders its that weird place where about 1 in 10k applicants gets in, and the insiders don't feel the difference much :p
or its one of those places where it doesn't really feel like work and the employees just kinda are there all day and think nothing much of it
Sadly most companies are nothing like SE. The company I work at pays less then half of minimum wage and the hours are rigidly fixed (8am - 4.30pm, coming even 1m late means your working 30m longer, unpaid)
7:51 PM
Deutsche Gründlichkeit?
In a way, yes. Very old and very conservative company owners
@JonEricson nice try, I'm reporting you to your manager anyway
They dont believe in flextime, they don't believe in paying people a cent more then they legally have to, and they don't believe in using benefits to attract decent employees. They have a "they should be greatful that they have a job" attitude
They will be outlived
They also really really hate criticism
So the fastest way to get fired is to talk back to the boss in any way
Also, in germany, we have something called "Betriebsrat", which is basicly an employee representation committee that has some rights and can be formed when a company is over x employees. It has to be formed by a plurality of employees though, through their initiative
Anyone found uttering that word will be fired within a month
7:56 PM
You just have to found the Betriebsrat in secret, once it exists you can't be fired anymore :)
(yes, I know it's not actually that easy)
@balpha In theory, yes. And at some point it will happen and they'll be so mad
Sometimes, they'll request of the IT dept that we dig up dirt on an employee they want gone, because you can't fire an employee for no reason in germany.
In seriousness though, here's a thing I learned from our marketing / dev insights people (and which wouldn't surprise me based on experience): German developers tend to seriously undervalue themselves, making it easier for employers to not give a shit
And then the sysadmin will pretend its impossible and they aren't any wiser
@balpha I know a real load of developers, and most of them make at or close to minimum wage
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