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1:56 AM
@Shog9 I'm here
@Undo thanks for that, I went to the wrong tavern
Undo I tried.. the wikipedia stuff is taken from elsewhere, so it was a mistake to say it was taken from wiki
That's Wikipedia's problem, really.
you know what give me the pips, is people are keen to reject my reviews, but they let in the plagiarised content in the first place! LOL
1:58 AM
Our problem is just that it's taken from somewhere. Or at least that's how I see it
it's like man, criticise sure, but at least get on your keyboard and do a better job than I am.. you know :D
with the excerpts, I was going to route of rewriting them, but it then takes research, more time to do so, which is ok, if that's the preferred option..
I'd disagree with that being 'okay'.
because we are expected to be cleaner, expert and mother to the site?
[ SmokeDetector ] Few unique characters in answer, repeating characters in answer: Brute force access to a Firebird database? by gilang on unix.stackexchange.com
2:02 AM
Given that (1) plagiarism is bad, and (2) writing a new tag wiki takes probably ten times as long, it simply doesn't make sense to do so unless a new tag wiki (from me, a non-expert) is ten times as good as a blank wiki.
I was going to suggest we create (with SO approval) a plagiarism taskforce or group if it doesn't already exist.. like the SOCVR team
totally agree
I wanted to ask you and someone like Shog about this today ^^
No, we don't need a task force. We just need one or two of us suggesting these to work through the backlog, and one or two of us flagging new cases where it pops up so the reviewers can get their hand slapped.
well neither of us have 20k, so that's a pickle :)
2:04 AM
meh. If it's a valid edit at 20k, it's a valid suggestion.
Flooding the queue on SO is irrelevant.
Right now, we simply don't have enough firepower for even a dozen people to keep up. We need to attack this at the source, with the reviewers.
there's need to be a penalty for writing or approving plagiarized content
And I'm not getting enough support to apprvoe edit suggestions.
There's a freight train coming at us, and even a whole bunch of us can't stop it because right now we only have pellet guns. We need bazookas, then one or two of us can keep on top of it.
I have the new few weeks to help intensively.. then I won't have so much free time, but do review daily
2:07 AM
I'm happy to do whatever can be done to help
where' shog? bloody hopeless :D
I'm going to ask a few SO mods (unless Shog shows up and says no) about enacting the no-questions-asked penalty thing. If we can get that, we have our bazookas and you and I can stay on top of it.
@Undo no-q-asked pen thing?
I think creating creating a plagiarism taskforce or group is not such a good idea, no offence - 1) I can't think of anyone who would like to pay for this 2) it would piss a lot of people off 3) it would potentially involve lawsuits and that's just trouble that most of people do not want.
2:10 AM
@MsYvette A policy of "if you approve plagiarism of any kind, you get a review ban on sight."
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper hmmm yes you could well be right.. I am not good at ideas, but better at assisting others implement theirs. :D Oh and I was not meaning a paid thing.. just a group of people interested in irradicating plagiarism
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper (2) is the only relevant one I'm seeing there, but I still don't think we need a huge group for this like we do with SOCVR.
well I'm already upsetting people attempting to remove it, people are attached to their plagiarised content
or just set up a room with a webhooked bot monitoring tag edits over 25/x characters
but more importantly is this .... Should I conform with the US spelling of plagiarsed?
2:13 AM
@Quill I've considered it, if only there was a good way to get that data.
well, we have bots monitoring post edits in other rooms, I'm sure tag edits are only a step further
There's no WebSocket for them
It's harder, they're not really even exposed through the API
hm. can it be run through a plagiarism check? A google search that if it trips up top search results that are not from SO, then it needs a human reviewer? If it's original the top search results are from SO, otherwise, they're from all over the web, with wiki usually at the top and then the places wiki has borrowed from, or others have borrowed from wiki following.
I run the excerpt and each paragraph from the wiki separately through goolge and then follow the links
2:16 AM
@MsYvette I've looked into that too. Two problems: (1) you suffer from the same issue of getting the data in the first place, and (2) Google is a little touchy about automated searches. Bots can't read ads.
@Undo ah k. I need coffee too many typos
ok so we're faced with three issues:
@Undo aren't they exposed with normal edits in the suggested edit field
@Quill Maybe, but IIRC that only contains pending edits and only on a specific post.
If you're talking about the suggested-edit endpoint
@Undo That's a bad idea. People don't do searches on tag wiki content.
2:17 AM
1. removing current content
2. preventing any further stolen content
3. possibility of penalty for editor and reveiwers
3a. do we backdate this (that sounds exhausting)
Perhaps they should, but .000001% does.
My friend just called Stackoverflow a cult, she is of course an accountant ... lemme debunk her a lil ...
@hichris123 That 0.00001% are the only ones we want.
So banning for something that no one bothers to check seems arbitrary to the masses.
2:18 AM
@Undo Heck, I don't check on occasion.
Sometimes I don't either. That's a risk you take.
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper I have one person who regular emails me to tell me how bad SO is.. LOL
You can't stop a problem by banning for something not spelled out in the rules.
> Approve edits that clearly improve the post
Improve Edit when you can make additional improvements to the post
Reject and Edit to replace an ineffective edit with your own substantive changes
Reject edits that fail to improve the post or that make it worse
Skip if you are not sure and want to go to the next suggested edit
@hichris123 that's why we're discussing it here, to formulate plans
Nothing in there talks about checking for plagiarism.
2:20 AM
@hichris123 I mean, "When approving these edits, ensure that: All the content is original or attributed properly"
There's policies on plagiarism on Se ^^
It could be argued that not all countries comply with copyright law, which is countered by SE does and it's part of the TOS. Is it our job to educate people on the law, or do we just protect the content of the site? actual question - not rhetorical
@MsYvette SE is based in the US; we're under US copyright law. That's not really the crux of the issue, though - the crux is that plagiarism is wrong.
Whether it's illegal in terribadistan or not, it's wrong.
yes. It does come under the umbrella of copyright law. that and the fact it's lazy, cheating and does nothing to enhance anyone's brain cells
@Undo yeah, no one reads those pages. It's like trying to educate the world by putting a notice on your bulletin board.
2:27 AM
@hichris123 Right, so our only choice is to put them in jail with the bulletin board in their cell.
We don't have a huge reviewer deficit. The ones who learn will only be out of commission for a few days, the few who don't... we don't really need their help anyway.
That seems arbitrary to people though.
any ideas on 1 and 2 this @hichris123
1. removing current content
2. preventing any further stolen content
3. possibility of penalty for editor and reveiwers
3a. do we backdate this (that sounds exhausting)
@hichris123 Not if there's an 80-score meta post suggesting it (check), and another high-score post stating that we're going to start doing it, explaining why, with a moderator or two saying "yes" (check).
@hichris123 not arbitrary at all, it's like failing review audits
There'll be heartache, but it's the only real way we can make this nightmare stop
2:29 AM
We need review audits for plagiarised content!
has this been suggested??
Could work, but we have to establish that approving it is Not Okay first.
@MsYvette When you fail an audit, there's so many reasons you can point to why it's wrong. When you approve plagiarized content... not so much.
@hichris123 The help center is a pretty good place to point to.
It's a bad idea to start banning people for reasons 0.001% of people know about.
They get mad.
2:30 AM
I suspect we could fairly easily get it added to the suggested edit queue help text.
And make a featured meta post for a week, if we're really concerned about it.
@hichris123 it takes time to approve wiki edits- well
People get mad about everything anyway, we can't use that as a reason not to change.
We need to make it front and centre then and then 80% of people will know, they will still get mad, but they will know
@MsYvette does this person actually use SO?
Start out with one-day review bans. There'll be pain for the first month or so, then the people who like plagiarized content will give up and go somewhere else
I don't know how else to get the message out.
2:35 AM
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper they've come and gone over the past few years. And I did quit some time back, but that was my problem, not SOs and I think this person thinks I will agree with them about how bad it is. I just keep saying I like it. They know how active I am.. The last email was how excited they were to get SE banned off some educational institutions recommended resources list. I said, well I like it and all my unis have recommended it. Haven't heard back, yet.
@MsYvette Best thing to do is probably not to engage.
@Undo I'm polite. :D This is through email btw, not a SE issue at all
Moderators come down like a pile of bricks on users harassing other users over email.
Nah this person and I became "friends/acquaitances" as they live nearbyish LOL and he's ok, just has a bug bear about SE
but thanks for that reminder, yes.. I keep my email guarded
2:38 AM
@Undo Review bans are not the first step to solving problems. The first step is making people acknowledge there is a problem. And a meta post doesn't fix that... maybe if it's featured, but even then. Few people look at meta. More reviewers likely look at meta, but still... half?
@hichris123 How do you propose we fix it, then?
How long does Shog generally take to appear after a ping? Or is that going to be closed as off topic - too broad
@MsYvette mentally scarred, I see ... :p
Short of a system message, we don't have a reliable way to shove stuff into people's faces.
@MsYvette 6-8 weeks.
2:39 AM
@MsYvette anywhere from seconds to 6-8 weeks.
@MsYvette it's 12pm here, but you gotta remember it's 9am there (wtf)
@Undo I mean... does this really need to be solved? And is this the problem you're trying to solve?
1) is this a problem? Or is the problem poor tag wikis?
@hichris123 We're stealing content from other places.
Or do we need attribution?
@Undo If you attribute it...
@hichris123 Then fine. But people aren't.
I'm still not terribly happy about it, but at least it's not flat-out plagiarism.
There's a plagiarism moderator message template, and it comes with the suspension placeholder. That says something.
2:41 AM
9am where???????? It's 1.41pm here @Quill
Yes, plagiarism is plagiarism, @Oleg. This has been discussed many times over the years and the consensus is that folks on SO do not like plagiarism. We even added a policy at the community's request condemning it and laying out guidance for avoiding it. Plagiarists in other areas of the site frequently find their posts deleted and their accounts suspended; there's no reason to expect different treatment in wikis. — Shog9 ♦ Dec 28 '15 at 17:43
^ also this
@hichris123 trust me it's a problem. I went through them, go through them..
@MsYvette it's 9am in new york where shog is, and oh, you're sydney time
@Quill hey that's good, how do you know that so quickly? a neighbour :D
@Quill Colorado. Not NY.
(see profile)
2:43 AM
oh, close enough
magical world clocks sidebar on Macs
Do I edit more wikis @Undo? I did get some rejected.
I'd stop for a while until we get word from Shog & team
I like the suggestion of making a list for a 20k repper.. LOL how many do you reckon we could get ready for said user?
@Quill 9am? what?
It's 9 pm EST...
2:47 AM
@MsYvette I don't. If it's a valid edit for a 20ker, it's a valid suggestion.
@hichris123 my magical world clocks sidebar hates me
My first batch of these was approved by animuson in one swoop through the review queue. That's far lower overhead than handing a big list to a 20ker.
@Undo I have no reason to dispute that. I have every reason to dispute that this is the problem.
Wikipedia != tag wiki
@hichris123 Clarify?
2:48 AM
Your problem is not plagarism.
@Undo that was Shog's advice
Your problem is people are generating crappy tag wikis.
@hichris123 ... and people are approving them
If you fix the latter, you fix the former.
How do you enforce "no crappy tag wikis", though?
2:48 AM
Because plagiarized tag wikis are not useful 98% of the time.
@Undo There's a rejection reason.
We've seen that... whatever we're doing... isn't working.
@hichris123 And people aren't using it.
I forget what, something like doesn't clarify what the tag is for on-topic ness.
I totally agree that there's another problem here, and it should be fixed too. The thing is, plagiarism is (a) very black and white, (b) looked down upon fairly universally, and (c) represents a decent percentage of crap.
We've got to start somewhere.
This is an easy place to start.
@hichris123 I went through and removed plagiarised content from tag wikis and excerpts, got a lot of people rejecting them. They took the effort to reject the clean up, so who took the effort to accept them in the first place? If it looks shiny it must be ok.. copy pasted stuff, if it takes from the site it must be bad.. me removing shiny copied stuff
if you don't actually improve the content, why would they care
2:51 AM
My friend does not use SO, she's calling SO a cult based on the amount of time I am spending here, lol
@Quill nothingness is better than plagiarism.
I have always thought tag wiki edits and approvals should be limited to users with some sort of tag badge and higher rep users
your meta has no staff contribution besides shog's comment that people don't like plagiarism, they're not inclined to care to click yes
@MsYvette how about tags with <100 questions?
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper it's cos there's some amazing people here and you get interesting discussion and it feels purposeful
@Quill true! higher rep users, or badge in related tag, or badges in x number of tags or an aunty in Arkansaw
2:54 AM
sigh I don't even know why I'm spending time arguing this here. Post something on that meta post if you disagree, or agree, or whatever.
@MsYvette It really doesn't look good when you remove a ton of content. And, to be honest, removing the content isn't a good solution...
I don't know what is.
improve it in your own words (emphasis on improving)
@hichris123 removing stolen content is a good idea
@Quill takes a long time and requires good English skills and, frequently, a good understanding of the actual tag.
2:58 AM
So there are two issues
Removing stolen content
Improving content
@MsYvette sure, it's a good idea. but not necessarily to the edit queue reviewers who just see content removal
no content is an improvement on stolen content
which is why we need a support group to either/and/or/both edit out the content and approve edits, which many mean following the links provided in the edit summaries to check if it is indeed plagiarised.
3:00 AM
you can't guarantee a successful approval
And to prevent people from continually adding and approving plagiarised content, so we don't have to edit 100s of posts
I know
But a larger community consensus would be helpful.
@Undo ehhhh... Are we still talking about tag excerpts? Those things of maybe one sentence that still require 3 reviewers to approve changes to?
@Shog9 I'm talking about wikis.
3:01 AM
both, maybe
Wikis you can actually suggest substantive changes to
@MsYvette Is it? Or is attributing the better course?
@Shog9 mainly wikis, but there are some excerpts that are pure copy pastes
Or, if you're crushingly lazy, just add attribution to
but excerpts...
@hichris123 I was wondering that myself, am happy to do that
3:01 AM
I really hate to see folks suggesting excerpts unless they're making them a lot better.
Even stolen ones?
@Shog9 is it better to delete stolen content or add an attribution
There are a few that are unique enough to be obviously plagiarized, past the threshold of uniqueness.
word for word copy
@MsYvette not actually possible to delete wikis. So, attribution.
3:02 AM
it's like uni, they run your work through some software and it comes out with % of copied content. In the cases we're editing, the % is very high
@Shog9 You can blank them out.
Not excerpts, though.
@Shog9 that's the excerpts, they can't be left blank
@Shog9 just delete the whole tag, I mean, who needs , right?
@Quill Oooh that's a totally different route
So yeah, ideally you're adding attribution to wikis and just making excerpts follow the guidelines
3:05 AM
then, go and downvote the four most recent posts from each reviewer who approved it.
@JeremyBanks sounds like a great idea...
@JeremyBanks easiest way to weed out petty people
also it's their four best posts
@Shog9 ok so with my recent edits, you would prefer me wikis: to wrap plagiarized content in a quote and add a link exerpts: rewrite them
I'm used to coming online with downvoted SO posts, I upset too many people :)
or write crappy posts ;)
3:11 AM
I've got a few weeks of time to really devote to helping out on the site, so am happy to make the effort to make it work. So if you want to give some clear direction @Shog9 I will work with @Undo and whomever else is willing and help clean it up
feel free to just point out problematic excerpts here too. I mean, there must be a few 20K users here.
@Shog9 Big Google spreadsheet sound okay?
Because otherwise we're going to have multi-dozen line lists of them here. They're far too easy to find.
@Shog9 (hi)
not @hichris123 of course, since he's still being lazy with homework and such.
@Shog9 ok how about this. I just do the wikis, add attribution. and is the excerpt is also plagiarised, star it somehow
3:13 AM
oh yeah, just ping @Doorknob
oh, forgot about you. Congrats @Doorknob, you're the official plagiarism remover for the next few months >:D
or @Shog9 could just give us all diamonds, you know
I'll consider that as soon as you earn 20K
It's hard to detect plagiarism, because like college, most things people write involve digesting what other people wrote, regurgitate the contents in different words. Catching plagiarism is almost like catching dumb people who copy & paste word to word of original authors articles ... either that or witch hunt ...
can't even get a 40/40 candidate score without 20K, you slackers
@Quill yes can we please have honorary diamonds to remove plagiarised content and annoying users from the site :D
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper It's very easy to detect plagiarism
copy/paste into Google in quotes -> done
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper Google + quotes = best plagiarism detector ever.
It's not like most of these folks put much work into concealing anything.
3:16 AM
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper in this case, it's mostly copy and paste, so it's pretty simple :D
I might set up a big Google spreadsheet or Trello board that we add stuff to and @Doorknob removes.
I have 39/40 on CR
@Shog9 we don't want to mod, we want to pick and choose what we do :p
well, first pick 200 questions to answer, and then choose to write 200 good answers, and then see where that leads
@Shog9 To be honest, sometimes I look for questions to answer, but either a) there's nothing interesting, b) I don't know anything about the topic, or c) it's a really easy question but not useful for SO so I just downvote/closevote.
3:17 AM
a) rewrite them
b) learn something
c) both
@Shog9 more like 3000 these days
[ SmokeDetector ] Few unique characters in body: Deleting bc no answer by luvluv on expatriates.stackexchange.com
@Shog9 you are plain mean, encouraging us to add decent content to the site
@Shog9 I thought that I was only a lazy slacker until I got 10k... now you're telling me that I need twice as much to be not lazy? :(
@Quill sez the guy with 33 answers
3:18 AM
@Shog9 There's only so many "my Android app doesn't work!11" questions you can rewrite...
yup. 200
The problem is they don't help anyone.
@Undo so how are we proceeding. Do we edit wikis and put the edited post on the board and if it needs the excerpt edited check that box?
They don't help the asker, since they just move on & have another issue since they don't learn anything.
Or is @Doorknob doing the editing from the board?
3:20 AM
And they don't help very many others, since they're likely in the same case as the asker: just bumbling through trying to make something.
Or just start up a voting ring, you know. I'm sure 20k is only a few days away
@hichris123 sure is making a lot of excuses
no schoolwork to do?
It takes effort to write a good answer
@Shog9 It's 10 PM. Do you really want to write a paper at 10 PM?
I thought not.
also takes effort to write a good tag wiki
3:22 AM
I'm taking a break from answering and focusing on moderating... for a few weeks.
@hichris123 It's 8:30 here and I am.
true, but I'm not writing the stolen wiki. We're trying to clean them up, it's not fair to them expect us to be cleaner, author, expert in one.
Yay for multiple monitors
I've written wikis sparingly for just that reason
3:23 AM
Get your head in the game, @Undo!
(I'm quoting high school musical? what have I done with my life?)
Not enough basketball, it seems
@hichris123 Last time I did that it was Ultimate Frisbee and I nearly got it chopped off by a flying disc thing.
There's nothing more entertaining than watching me try to catch a frisbee.
ok, what exactly are we doing?
what this room does best: talking about everything but meta.
3:26 AM
haha I mean with the stolen content
@Undo is going to put together a list, someone will pin it to whatever chatroom is decided
@MsYvette Probably nothing right now; I'm too tired to set something up.
And you can work on improving them there
@MsYvette well... I mean... If you don't want to do the job right, set a good example for others, demonstrate the clear advantages of Clean Living over slovenly carelessness... Then you don't actually have to do anything...
3:29 AM
@Shog9 you understand you are asking people to write wikis that are better than the plagiarised ones and that's difficult and they are likely to be rejected... shrug
It's not the easy way, but It's The Cowboy Way.
ok I will go forth and write original wikis in place of the plagiarised ones and if they're rejected, I will come back here, ping you and complain. Deal
I like this division of labor
You just need people who are good with their words, I'm sure that's not terribly difficult
and I will keep a note of the plagiarised excerpts for Undos star chart
3:31 AM
I'm good with words, it's understanding the blinking content
I will update my meta answer accordingly
Blinking content is the worst.
do we get horses for being cowboys? I'd like a chestnut
@Undo hahahahaha
3:32 AM
bloody content then, trying to raise the tone of the place
Undo what have I followed you into? :D
ttytt I need a break from programming, so I don't mind the distraction
but don't tell Shog that
@MsYvette Either a minuscule amount of glory or a large amount of death and gloom.
Likely both
3:35 AM
I hear ya. I'm learning to cope with the occassional spiteful downvote.. so I can cope
What's the rep req for edit queue privs?
@Quill 2k normally, 5k for tag wiki edits
2 and 5k shouldn't be too hard to get on SO
3:45 AM
@SmokeDetector lol not spam but off-topic
@Undo feel free to edit/improve my meta answer
user image
4:00 AM
@Shog9if the excerpt is totally plagiarised, are you happy for me to put in a totally original excerpt, if I'm going to rewrite the wiki the excerpt is not going to be so difficult
now wait 10 days for reply
so help me if these get rejected I'll be whining in here
4:19 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] Repeating words in answer: How to find the green slime in Slime Rancher? by user137708 on gaming.stackexchange.com
4:38 AM
ok if anyone is interested
5:09 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] Email in body: Derivation of a theory by Augustus Chou on mathematica.stackexchange.com
5:28 AM
I have just gazed upon a million-line perl program. I expect enduring nightmares.
what does it do?
Creates nightmares, obviously
you can write a 100-line perl program to create nightmare.
This isn't just your nightmares though. It infects others too.
if you need a million-line to do the same thing, it would indicate inefficiency :p
5:40 AM
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper Many, many, many things.
More things than I ever imagined, or can.
It's an entire world.
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper Taxes, of course.
poor you, had to read a million-line perl program for calculating taxes :p
no wonder nightmares >_<
I don't even know how to read it.
I’m just wandering around the infinite labyrinth.
All these classes with 500 accumulated inherited methods.
And more.
I guess my team's program is almost half that, if you count the libraries.
But that's cheating.
People used to break things into separate programs.
Now they just shove everything into one.
It's like taking every program you ever knew and wiping away address-space partitions.
@TelkittytheWebDeveloper I need no semicolons.
[ SmokeDetector ] Email in body: Derivation of a theory by Augustus Chou on mathematica.stackexchange.com
1 hour later…
7:12 AM
@Doorknob let me know when you want to edit some tag wiki excerpts :)
7:53 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] Pattern-matching website in body: pressure. Enhance beneficial circulation of by romilee02 on mathematica.stackexchange.com
[ SmokeDetector ] Link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: Cogni Focus includes Bacopin®, probably by romilee02 on askubuntu.com
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in title, pattern-matching website in body: Nootropics is usually known as “Smart Supplements” by romilee02 on mathoverflow.net
8:20 AM
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1 hour later…
10:13 AM
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10:25 AM
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11:09 AM
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11:43 AM
Hey, I've recently got (2) at my avatar at bottom and say 2 message flagged as spam in any room, then it became 1 and then 0! They redirect me to chat.stackexchange.com/admin/flagged?show=all. What is going on? I've never experienced with such feature
You got 10k network-wide so you can see chat flags in chat.SE.
no, because the flag that you got a notification for is already handled
And I didn't understand why pop-upped 2 then 1 and then became 0?
because ^
11:53 AM
@ProgramFOX BTW, I should informed and about such feature while achieving 10k. I've check unix.stackexchange.com/help/privileges/moderator-tools or chat.meta.stackexchange.com/faq doesn't say anything about it.
there's some Meta post about it
can you link?
A: Is there a list of SE chat privileges, and the minimum reputation required for those privileges?

GillesStack Overflow and Meta Stack Exchange each have their own chat; the rest of the network (Stack Overflow in non-English languages, Super User, Server Fault, Stack Exchange 2.0) has a combined chat site (Stack Exchange chat). Privileges apply based on your total reputation on the associated site(s...

@ProgramFOX Thanks
oh! how did I forgot it. Actually I've visited and favourited! also used at the end in this question. Hmm.. I had not read 10k line
1 hour later…
1:02 PM
> This guy is a jerk and he breaks everything from CSS layouts to database queries. But we still love him. Sometimes.
Sooooo SO :)
1:49 PM
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in body: How to measure corrosion rate of an iron nail in salt water? by kyczawon on chemistry.stackexchange.com
sd ignore-
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