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8:00 PM
@Shog9 - Is that really the outlook? 20 users should go around voting in blocks of 20 like a fire hose?
Becomes difficult to find old crap with it.
@TravisJ you realize there are a lot more than 20 10K users on SO, right?
6 mins ago, by Shog9
Which is usually the real problem in practice: only a tiny, tiny handful of people actually use their delete votes
Yes, but how many of them do anything but answer questions?
@durron597 I want to fix some of the moderator tooling first, because it's even more long overdue. That's an active initiative as of next week. The 10k tools were designed to facilitate more oversight, which at our current scale, is a function that they fundamentally don't provide very well. You need to be able to drill into those lists more conveniently at a much deeper breadth, and (optionally) filter out the stuff you can't act on, even if just seeing what's ultimately happened to it is interesting. — Tim Post ♦ Jun 27 at 4:08
Many high reputation users are not active on meta.
8:01 PM
Maybe the only thing that is left to do is watching troublesome tags for new posts but leave the current mess in its status quo
Nor on moderation in general aside from what they encounter
Would it be the case that we're missing some kind of "burnination" tool, then? Do these problems seem to come up during tag burnination?
@Shog9 "probably" incomplete? It's desperately incomplete. And filtering is nonexistent.
@Makoto so one of the easiest things to do here would be to just delete all closed, negatively-scored questions in a tag when the tag itself was burned.
@Shog9 We are doing it this way because we are trying to relieve moderators from being involved in the process
8:02 PM
@Shog9 So help my understanding. How do we determine when the tag is "burned"? I believe that to be when there aren't any new questions tagged with it.
Is there another state that I'm unaware of?
Because, honestly, that sounds like a great approach.
I can't remember the last time burning a tag was done by a mod, except for the last 100 questions
> Now, even if you can edit without approval... You probably shouldn't bother if there are more than a few dozen questions. Even if you have a few other people involved, 50-100 is probably the most you should bother with unless you're down-right masochistic.
> For tags that involve large numbers of questions, just flag the burninate-request and leave a note for the mods that the cleanup is done. They'll pass this along to someone like me, I'll verify that you didn't lie about the sanity-checking and cleanup, click a button, and it'll be like the tag never existed...
@TravisJ the thing is that canvassing for votes and using down votes to delete a post was specifically advised by mods. They are refusing any mandate to help with that aspect of site quality.
A: When to burninate

Shog9Before you start doing anything, put a little bit of thought into the request: Does this tag even need to be burninated? There are a lot of burninate-requests posted to various meta sites that are... To put it gently... A complete and utter waste of everyone's time. Some folks will seemingly p...

We did etc. etc. entirely by ourselves
8:03 PM
[ SmokeDetector ] Repeating words in answer: Move image down using HTML/CSS by daddy on stackoverflow.com
@durron597 and if you can, that's no problem.
No, mods don't scale. But neither do our tools in the face of the onslaught of crap.
But at the point where you're saying you have to organize voting rings to work around the deficiencies in the tooling, I'd have to say there's a problem.
something needs more power to scale.
@Shog9 If the tooling were improved, then we wouldn't need to use downvotes in this way
8:05 PM
@Shog9 I agree, and we should fix the tooling, not prevent people from working around the deficiences
Okay, from context it's a mod-specific thing. Perhaps power users need more insight into that?
Q: 10k "Most Delete Votes" List - Don't Show Questions I Can't Vote For

John SaundersThis is somewhat related to a question here on meta about whether the number of questions in the "Most Delete Votes" list in the 10k moderator tools should be increased. I looked for that question every way I could think of, to add this as an answer (if it wasn't closed), but couldn't find it. I...

I can easily delete hundreds of questions an hour if need-be. If the need grows greater than that, we probably have bigger problems to address.
At the same time, users who would not have access to that tooling should not bypass the reputation requirement by simply coordinating workarounds and gaming the system.
If the 10k tools became more useful for burnination efforts (tag filtering) then we wouldn't need to do this.
8:06 PM
@durron597 you don't actually need to do it now.
Why is the focus on tag burnination though? That doesn't seem like the overall problem I observe. Questions in general are a lot easier to moderate. The current culture of focusing user coordinated removal of answers is what bothers me.
@Shog9 Which circles me back to my original point: do you want us to clean up crap, or not?
I mean, if your primary goal is to get rid of a tag, then closing all the questions that should be closed, deleting the ones you can, and retagging the rest is sufficient.
@Shog9: More communication, perhaps? If you can actually handle these more efficiently than the community, we should probably have a better communication flow towards this.
@TravisJ it's a way to have some measure of success.
8:07 PM
In fact, there was an entire discussion recently on the decline of answers per post and while the cause is hard to determine, anything undermining answers at the moment is not a good idea.
@Shog9 This would result in hundreds or thousands of closed questions that will never get looked at and remain on the site forever
@MichaelT - Clarify? The tag burnination, or the answer removal?
Which goes back to my question about "is closed a transition state or a final state"
Looking at the front page remains very disappointing. Too much crap there.
When you go looking... that is all you will find.
8:08 PM
If "closed, not deleted" is a reasonable endgame state for a question, then what you suggest is fine
@Makoto I wrote a big-ass meta post about it and if you use [burninate-request] as a tag on a MSO question it's linked there...
But a tag burning - you can see that number go down.
As usual, folks don't read
Hey how many late answers did SO get?
@MichaelT: There's still crap questions, but the thing is, I see a lot less of it on the main page than I do in a specific tag.
8:08 PM
@TravisJ removal of answers here is a symptom, not a cause. It was already established long ago that deleting good content/answers is not the right way to do things (even durron agrees), so that shouldn't be your focus here
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M 1.2k
That's . . . disappointing.
@durron597 not necessarily. A big chunk will be deleted automatically; a smaller chunk will be deleted by vote over time (again, delete votes don't expire). Some may take years to be gone. They won't be lost though.
@Makoto front page of SO is filtered by triage.
Physics isn't SO's fingernail and it got 505.
8:09 PM
@TylerH - That is what garners my attention. The question closure is not as much of an issue, but the focusing of votes in general is still a problem that goes against the way the site was designed.
@Shog9 The tags are an organization scheme to help us find questions that we know are bad
it's much easier to find a question about, for example, legal advice while it's tagged
@Shog9: Yes, the question in...question was indeed originally tagged with burninate-request
@Shog9 if we burn the tag to avoid having to delete the tag right now, then the question becomes much harder to find later.
Maybe the right thing to do is make it much easier for tags to be in a "no new questions may be asked with this tag" state
I'll re-read that post, though.
With close votes aging out and large queues or small community moderation pools, it can be very difficult to get anything closed or deleted without coordination.
8:10 PM
Then, can continue to exist, we wouldn't need to burn it.
Especially so on old posts.
@durron597 so, this is where drawing a line between "small enough we can do this with 10 people" and "big enough that it'll be easier to just tidy up the edges and ask for help" is gonna benefit you a lot.
@MichaelT - And what negative effect have these old posts had on users aside from those looking for that type of post to close?
@Shog9 We were able to do and and with 10 people.
1500+ questions in all three.
The hardest, most tedious parts of tag cleanups for me are going through questions and finding those that shouldn't have had the tag in the first place, or should've had a different tag.
That's where it really helps to have some dedicated editors working with you
8:12 PM
@TravisJ they remain as examples of acceptable quality for new users.
@Shog9 I agree this is the hardest part, that is why my edits skyrocketed in the last two months
I didn't bother to edit a question I voted to close in most cases.
@MichaelT - I don't think new users find them. I doubt many new users even go around looking.
I absolutely would edit a question if closing it was a valid endgame state.
When it comes to deletion... I delete everything that's closed and scores <= 0 or scores < 0, with a minimal amount of review (spot-check for diamonds in the rough). Deletion is fast.
Every day people use them as justification for why their question should remain open, or as a template for how much we don't care about txtspeak
8:14 PM
If new users aren't finding the large signpost canonical questions how are they finding a question with 65 views from 2010?
Search google, find a stack overflow post. Look at the quality.
@TravisJ I think you underestimate the average user's ability to suck at searching
@MichaelT yeah, but... That's mostly laziness. There are other bad justifications they'd use if those weren't convenient
Folks are great at bad justifications
@Shog9 every less excuse is a better post.
@TylerH - If a user is finding a bad post before a canonical post, does that mean the bad post should be removed or improved?
@TravisJ probably removed
I've had folks write me lengthy essays explaining why they shouldn't have had to write more than 1 sentence of explanation in their questions
Consider the median question quality and ask if we can expect people to write better than that.
@durron597 - No one has found that. It 5 years it has had 100 views.
@durron597 - Which is to say, no one is googling that phrase.
@Shog9 Due to advances in mind reading?
8:16 PM
And back to my main point, 2 views per month is really affecting every new user?
@TravisJ my point is that low view questions can have good SEO
And what post would you rather see for that search?
We are not here to optimize for SEO
You haven't been involved in annoying arguments with people "oh I found this blah blah"
@josilber yeah, tl;dr is usually "it's a fantastically hard problem, therefore only those who know the answer already could understand it, therefore making it accessible to anyone else would be counter-productive for me"
8:17 PM
We aren't optimized for SEO? ... I disagree.
SEO is a red herring here
Stack Overflow is the first result a very large amount of the time for software related issues.
Most views are on low-view questions. SO is a big long tail of niche information
Niche information that we used to have to buy a book and poke around for.
Really it is a very efficient tool at problem solving. It may house some information which can be harder to find at times, but it is also very good at building information on new technology at a very quick pace.
@TravisJ I meant that we shouldn't moderate posts for their SEO rank
8:19 PM
@TravisJ Again, the fundamental disagreement here is that you think crappy questions should stay and that others, myself included, don't.
I mean that a post with 2 views a month isn't in dire need of moderation.
Do I need to find more old crap?
@durron597 you're stuck on this. But no one is arguing that
@durron597 - No, quite the contrary. Kill em with fire. But do it naturally, don't run around targeting perceived problems.
10 mins ago, by durron597
Maybe the right thing to do is make it much easier for tags to be in a "no new questions may be asked with this tag" state
8:21 PM
I could get with that.
I think that may be the missing tool.
I also would agree with that.
@durron597 that's easy enough.
we could do a trial run or something
Please do
@Shog9 consider that only thing that does scale is the automatic scripts.
But how would it work, though? Give that power to moderators?
8:22 PM
Improve the roomba and people can work more easily on the posts that need it.
25K? 30K?
Make an MSO post about it?
@durron597 when a gets X votes, it gets featured for a day. If it hits [Y] votes, the tag gets "locked". When cleanup is done, it gets burned.
It's not a privilege that should be given to just anybody.
That'd be a rough test we could run.
8:22 PM
@Shog9 I like that
If it works, easy enough to bake in
That seems practical.
@Shog9 That sounds fantastic.
Perhaps have a percent threshhold in there too? In addition to your metric, once some large percent of the tag was edited out the lock is triggered
@TravisJ that's hard
8:23 PM
Okay nvm then
Looking for a light weight system I can just do manually until we decide if it's worth automating
@Shog9 Shall I make an MSO / MSE post about it?
@durron597 MSO
@Shog9 Admit you like to push buttons
@Shog9: Would this take into account legacy burninate requests as well?
@rene Who doesn't? It's more fun if they are big red buttons too
That post though...
@Makoto so we have a bit over 100 requests >= 20 right now. That'd keep us busy for the rest of the year for sure.
@rene mostly just durron's
@MichaelT - How do you even find this stuff? Just let it be lol find stuff to answer and help people :P
8:27 PM
Fair enough
@Shog9 what about a case like this: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/304218/drop-tag-table
Highly upvoted but OP eventually decided it was not a good idea
@TravisJ I just look at old questions in a tag that have an up vote on an answer.
@MichaelT - I just try to look at a question from someone that I can help or educate.
@Shog9 Don't I know it =D
8:29 PM
That is only a small fraction of the site.
That is the whole point of the site.
You are restricting the maid to the foyer.
The rest of the house needs cleaning too.
@josilber so... This is why we gotta try this out, because #1 we gotta figure out what that Y threshold should be and #2 we gotta decide whether someone needs to exercise oversight on this ("no you're not burning web-apps just because people who ask questions about web-apps are all bad at it - they'll just be bad at it elsewhere")
Q: Make it easier to prevent new questions being added in a tag

durron597In part because of the recent controversy about downvoting questions for Roomba, @Shog9, myself, and others had a long conversation attempting to address the real problem: what are the goals of tag burnination? The main reason to get rid of a tag is to prevent users from asking questions about t...

8:31 PM
It means looking under the sofa for the dust bunnies.
(go ahead, guess where folks are asking their crappy web questions now...)
Burn - you know you want to.
@durron597 - In a burninated tag?
@Shog9 Makes sense. I think one potential issue (maybe just something I perceive) is that some burnination requests get more upvotes due to clever title than due to high-quality suggestion.
, , ...take your pick
8:33 PM
@TravisJ edited
first please
Though looking through your list there are plenty of highly upvoted questions with non-clever titles. So maybe not a factor.
Can it be added to the title?
8:35 PM
Q: Paypal Integration

user438860HI, can any one guide me to integrate paypal with php?

@MichaelT The answer is bad too
Q: What is the concept of menu?

sruthiActually for what purpose is menu used?

It's really easy to find these.
@josilber hence the [feature] part of this.
@Shog9 Do you think that this "tag locking" is the same thing as blacklisting, or do you think a "locked tag" should be it's own thing separate from blacklisting?
8:38 PM
@MichaelT - But what harm is a closed question doing? Also, apparently that style of question can generate a lot of traffic.
@Shog9 I mean, I can't ever see a reason for or to come back one day. I've always wondered why tags get approved for burnination but not for blacklisting. Can you explain?
@MichaelT - " don't have an Android phone right now. But in my application I need to use the accelerometer values. So I need an a simulator capable of it. How can I do this?"
(from the same user)
Q: How can i simulate accelerometer in android emulator?

sruthiI don't have an Android phone right now. But in my application I need to use the accelerometer values. So I need an a simulator capable of it. How can I do this?

Traffic on crap is not a good thing.
It isn't the question, it is the answer.
The answer is where the quality comes from in almost all cases.
If the question elicits an answer which helps thousands of people, then was the question worthwhile?
Was the answer crap in that case?
And those are closed question I linked. Do they have good answers?
8:41 PM
Nope, burn 'em
If not, why are they still around?
They aren't causing any problems. Time was better spent creating good content than it was finding these small outliers.
Ideally, do they all get removed? Yes. In practice, does spending time removing them detract from the amount of time you can share your knowledge? Yes. Which do you choose? Constantly remove content you feel is crap, or constantly creating content which you know is gold.
Do you want search queries instead of examples? I am saying this is too prevalent. That scripts rather than votes should clean them up.
What prevented roomba from getting to your examples just now?
Up vote on the answer
8:45 PM
@durron597 historical reasons, mostly
blacklisting prevents submission of any edits containing the tag
Perhaps roomba should allow very old posts to have their upvoted answers weighted against time.
so once it's blacklisted, you cannot edit questions in the tag without removing it
Maybe allow 1 upvote per year to age away in the calcuation
That would have caught your examples
@Shog9 That's a good thing, isn't it?
8:46 PM
[ SmokeDetector ] Pattern-matching website in answer: What is the meaning of "heap burning coals on his head"? by Linda on hermeneutics.stackexchange.com
A: What should the system be deleting automatically that it already isn't?

user289086Old zero scores with comments These are questions that got duped, or solved elsewhere and ignored, or homework that passed its due date. Sometimes they have answers, or a few comments. The 365-day script will not delete a post that has an answer, or two or more comments. Change this to a slidin...

@MichaelT Most of your examples should be downvoted because they are terrible not because they need to be roombaed.
The More aggressive deleting of 'one up vote' closed question section.
@Shog9 - Would it be bad to let 1 upvote per year age away on answers to negatively voted questions?
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in title: Web redirecting to porn site by William Calvin on security.stackexchange.com
8:49 PM
@durron597 - Well, the answer shouldn't be downvoted if it solved a problem at the time. I think that is just gaming the system in order to remove the question. Address the problem of the question, not the answers. Downvoting the question is fine if it was posed incorrectly.
@TravisJ Why age the upvote? Why not just have roomba delete if q.score < 0 and a.score < years of question
That is what I meant
Perhaps I didn't articulate it properly
How many duplicates do we need? stackoverflow.com/questions/linked/218384?lq=1
A year ago it was 400 long.
@MichaelT Most of those are probably XY questions anyway, which can be in infinite configurations
8:54 PM
heh, that looks like the results of a NullPointerExceptionFactory in Java.
Does roomba not remove duplicate posts?
Nope. Not if they have an answer or two comments or an up vote.
they remain as "pointers to good content"
which is useful, though maybe not 2,000 of them to the same question
@tchrist I think I prevailed on this one (that is, unless you haven't yet slept) -- ell.stackexchange.com/questions/69408/…
@durron597 it's confusing
FWIW, I'm sick or ate something bad or something. Gonna stop trying to be lucid for a little bit; will catch up later.
@Shog9 feel better!
9:06 PM
[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive answer detected: Finding number with prime number of divisors? by Penis in pussy love on math.stackexchange.com
@Shog9 feel better!
You all made the poor man feel sick...
What did he expect, being a decapitated head...
[ SmokeDetector ] Blacklisted website in answer, pattern-matching website in answer: Ошибка в файле mysql при распаковке из архива by markmiheev on ru.stackoverflow.com
9:32 PM
@TylerH that's a floating head to you
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in answer: Python Login to remote website by Raha on stackoverflow.com
@SmokeDetector sd trueu-
Common spam pattern, user asks question then provides own answer with spam link.
9:48 PM
user image
<trash style="display: none;" />
The database load for the next First Answer question is quite slow.
National coffee day y'all
like, every day is coffee day here...
in The Whiteboard on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, yesterday, by Jimmy Hoffa
@ThomasOwens Head's up. Every day is Coffee Day.
smart man
9:59 PM
in The Whiteboard on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, Jul 23 at 19:45, by Jimmy Hoffa
room topic changed to The Whiteboard: General Discussion for http://programmers.stackexchange.com Pants optional when telecommuting. [coffee-day] [facedesk] [good-booze] [grog-nerds] [horror-stories] [monads] [my-code-is-compiling] [parsing-errors] [the-other-monitor]
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in body, pattern-matching website in body: reducing waste and fraud by malinijuriya on drupal.stackexchange.com
@Frank The small version of your avatar looks like a hamburger.
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M ha
10:34 PM
[ SmokeDetector ] Blacklisted website in answer, pattern-matching website in answer: Как восстановить файлы (.ai) от Illustrator cs4? by maksfrolov on ru.stackoverflow.com
sd trueu-
10:55 PM
@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M you have to zoom out pretty far for that…
11:24 PM
[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive answer detected: How to boot off of a Linux .iso from a Windows machine by user456058 on askubuntu.com
11:38 PM
sd why
@AstroCB [:4026124] Body - Position 348-353: whore
11:49 PM
I'm so hungry
eat steak
I had planned on it
I find bubbly lemonade/sprite soothing for an upset stomach ...
Have a bunch of steaks in my fridge

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