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00:00 - 10:0010:00 - 18:0018:00 - 00:00

bummi
bummi
10:00 AM
she have a female partner yesterday with the same pattern, let's wait if another will follow
 
Andrew T.
Andrew T.
fr: userscript to change link's font size to 500% on post (question & answer)
(let it smack my monitor), ouch... my eyes...
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
seems easy
 
Infinite Recursion
Infinite Recursion
<^>
 
Andrew T.
Andrew T.
fr: userscript to automatically expand [shortened link] to its URL :/
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
[ SmokeDetector ] Repeating characters in body: manga that i don't know the name by user13450 on anime.stackexchange.com
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
10:11 AM
who the hell is Ponda Baba?
 
Bart
Bart
?
 
Andrew T.
Andrew T.
@SmokeDetector suggested
@SmokeDetector Ponda Baba is... an alien
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in body: Alpha Genix Review by CaraRobi7 on meta.stackexchange.com
[ SmokeDetector ] Blacklisted website: You know that yet playing by naseeb doll on meta.stackexchange.com
 
bummi
bummi
10:30 AM
@SmokeDetector tpu
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
@bummi Blacklisted user and registered question as true positive: added title to the Bayesian doctype 'bad'.
 
bummi
bummi
@SmokeDetector tpu
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
@bummi Blacklisted user and registered question as true positive: added title to the Bayesian doctype 'bad'.
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
10:54 AM
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in title, Bad keyword in body: Lipogen Rx Garcinia Cambogia Reviews:Side Effects, ingredients, Does it Work! by Joanni keaver on meta.stackexchange.com
 
Pham
Pham
 
Unihedro
Unihedro
$9.99 while supplies last. — Ramhound 1 min ago
... wth?
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
probably just kidding
 
bummi
bummi
with a bot ... witty
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
gone
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
11:04 AM
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
@SmokeDetector you better call that number
 
Bart
Bart
"SQL Hotline. You may have dropped your table, we won't drop your call. How may I help you?"
4
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in body, Bad keyword in body: The Easy Diet Meal Plans And The Diet Solution Program by rand abirk on meta.stackexchange.com
 
bummi
bummi
@SmokeDetector tpu
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
@bummi Blacklisted user and registered question as true positive: added title to the Bayesian doctype 'bad'.
[ SmokeDetector ] All-caps title: H2 ALTER TABLE ADD COLUMN BEFORE/AFTER by dendini on dba.stackexchange.com
 
Infinite Recursion
Infinite Recursion
11:21 AM
 
Bart
Bart
@InfiniteRecursion He sure loves the blah
 
Infinite Recursion
Infinite Recursion
Yes, now we know why one shouldn't read, digest and desect the help pages.
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
[ SmokeDetector ] All-caps title: ABOUT REGULATION by GILLES MERLIN on patents.stackexchange.com
[ SmokeDetector ] Repeating words in answer: What is SuppressWarnings ("unchecked") in Java? by AAa on stackoverflow.com
 
Infinite Recursion
Infinite Recursion
are baba, other sites means SO sister sites like scifi.stackexchange.com, gamedev.stackexchange.com, movies.stackexchange.com, GOT IT @ivarni — mujaffars 51 mins ago
^Does anyone know what baba refers to in this comment?
 
Pham
Pham
 
Bart
Bart
11:33 AM
@InfiniteRecursion en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_(honorific) perhaps?
 
Infinite Recursion
Infinite Recursion
@Bart Yes, Baba Bart.
 
Bart
Bart
:D
 
Infinite Recursion
Infinite Recursion
 
Doorknob
Doorknob
> if there is no no-"no-js" case
260
Q: What is the purpose of the HTML "no-js" class?

SwaderI notice that in a lot of template engines, in the HTML5 Boilerplate, in various frameworks and in plain php sites there is the no-js class added onto the <HTML> tag. Why is this done? Is there some sort of default browser behavior that reacts to this class? Why include it always? Does that not...

javascript html modernizr html5boilerplate
 
Infinite Recursion
Infinite Recursion
4
A: Can an android app be installed/converted to run on an iPhone?

DavidNeissno no no no no no no no no no no (ok am I at 30 characters yet?).

 
Mooseman
Mooseman
11:40 AM
burn-pls stackoverflow.com/search?q=%22yes+yes+yes%22 (Only the first few)
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
[ SmokeDetector ] Numbers-only title: 5, 3, 6, ? 64.75 by Mohit Akar on math.stackexchange.com
 
tchrist
tchrist
When you type a random number after the /questions/ link which is less than the total posts to that SE site, it does an odd thing of choosing something nearby. Anybody got details of this algorithm?
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
@tchrist sequential ID allocation
 
user259867
@tchrist The questions and answers are numbered consecutively. If the ID happens to belong to an answer, you are sent to that answer. If it happens to be deleted, you get to the corresponding question instead.
 
tchrist
tchrist
I’m not positive about that deleted bit.
 
user259867
11:54 AM
Example?
 
tchrist
tchrist
Let me find one where the post ID is neither the question nor an answer of the same.
Ok, it is the id. But deleted doesn’t matter.
Blah.
Too early.
So it rewrites the question number to the right question which that post id belongs to and then takes you to that post. Deleted doesn't matter.
 
user259867
Yes, that's what it does; and since the answer is highlighted when you open the page, it is usually clear what has happened: you navigated to an answer.
 
user259867
But if a user does not have 10K (I don't on SO), then the top of the question page is displayed, as if I navigated to that question. This is confusing at times.
 
tchrist
tchrist
I see. That must be what puzzled me.
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
12:11 PM
[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in title: All anti aging signs such as wrinkles puffiness by Angela Kochs on drupal.stackexchange.com
 
bummi
bummi
@SmokeDetector tpu
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
@bummi Blacklisted user and registered question as true positive: added title to the Bayesian doctype 'bad'.
 
Infinite Recursion
Infinite Recursion
 
Kevin Brown
Kevin Brown
@InfiniteRecursion The link doesn't show up much in Google results, so I'm leaning towards "not intentionally"
 
Unihedro
Unihedro
@InfiniteRecursion needs education
 
Infinite Recursion
Infinite Recursion
12:15 PM
Ok, thanks @KevinBrown and @uni
 
tchrist
tchrist
Hm, “accidental spam”.
 
user259867
Yes. I slightly educated the question and the answer. But probably not spam.
 
Unihedro
Unihedro
You're welcome ^_^
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
 
bummi
bummi
12:32 PM
 
Yi Jiang
Yi Jiang
12:46 PM
For some reason I'm stuck in mobile mode when viewing the Stack Exchange blog
Even pressing the 'exit mobile mode' button doesn't do anything
 
Pham
Pham
Spam Q (TPA'd by bummi): Increase strength and testosterone, by □ Brian Charles, on drupal.stackexchange.com.
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
[ SmokeDetector ] Blacklisted website: Increase strength and testosterone by Brian Charles on drupal.stackexchange.com
 
Pham
Pham
 
J. Steen
J. Steen
Wow. Idiot spam script thinks this is a dating site.
 
bummi
bummi
@J.Steen isn't it? ;)
 
tchrist
tchrist
12:53 PM
Depends where you draw the line between groupie and stalker.
 
bummi
bummi
 
Bart
Bart
He can just delete it instead
 
bummi
bummi
@Bart right, no answer yet, sorry
 
Mooseman
Mooseman
@bummi again
 
Bart
Bart
And now it has a nonsense answer
 
bummi
bummi
1:03 PM
@Mooseman it's getting funny there
 
Mooseman
Mooseman
@bummi not a unique situation, i'm afraid.
 
Bart
Bart
Myeah, added a downvote for good measure.
 
James
James
New one on same tag with barely any difference to previous edit: meta.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/38240
 
J. Steen
J. Steen
ffs. The guy's even been edit-banned.
 
James
James
and given soooo much advice and info from a few of us. if he gets edit banned again is it for more than 24hrs?
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
1:16 PM
 
bummi
bummi
@SmokeDetector tpu
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
@bummi Blacklisted user.
 
James
James
They indeed live up to their username
 
nicael
nicael
0
Q: Intra word markdown doesn't function properly when combining italic and bold

nicaelI mean, why can I write in thisway, (just bolding: **wo**rd, or just italicizing:*wo*rd), but I can't ***comb***ine bold and italic? It works non-intra-word, but doesn't work ***intra-***word. Is it a bug?

bug markdown
 
James
James
@nicael that's gotta be a dupe, surely?
 
Pham
Pham
1:19 PM
Spam Q (TPA'd by bummi): What is the price of Diamond Luxe Serum?, by □ jimbrewer, on meta.stackexchange.com.
 
bummi
bummi
1:37 PM
a little strange all the answers here superuser.com/a/894738, could be difficult to flag as NAA
 
bummi
bummi
2:10 PM
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
@bummi gone
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
2:28 PM
 
Bart
Bart
Wow, they welcome such questions?
 
James
James
 
user259867
@Bart Yep, must be making moderator's job pretty hard... can't tell the difference between spam and a legitimate answer.
 
Bart
Bart
@Woodface I was on my way to nuke that one ... guess not then
 
bjb568
bjb568
@Woodface is there a difference?
 
user259867
2:40 PM
Perhaps there isn't. Then it becomes a question of which spam posts should be kept and upvoted...
2
 
user259867
When we busted that 19-post spammer on Poker, some of their answers had positive score.
 
user259867
Hm, I wonder if they are still there...
 
user259867
All gone, thankfully.
 
tchrist
tchrist
2:59 PM
@Woodface Many members appear to believe that every posting whatsocrappyever deserves an upvote irrespective of content. A few subscribe to the contrary proposition.
 
user259867
in CoGro Musings, 15 hours ago, by Ana
I should start tracking the amount of time it takes for users in our different private betas to reach certain (as yet undefined) rep thresholds, and see whether 'time to x rep' early on correlates with an engaged community down the road.
 
user259867
Yeah. So many sad little beta sites gathering dust...
 
tchrist
tchrist
@Woodface ♬ Take a sad site, and make it be-eh-eh-ter. ♬
 
Jason C
Jason C
@Woodface @Ana I'd also be interested in seeing if there is a correlation between rapid early follower / commitment increases in the proposals and burn out / lack of success later. I wonder if the sites that get jumped on quickly tend to be ones that "feel good" at the time but don't last.
 
Lynn Crumbling
Lynn Crumbling
Wow.. poker does not get much throughput.
 
user259867
3:29 PM
Yes, the front page would have the entire March activity if some "Jon" didn't retag a bunch of posts.
 
user259867
On sites like that people get up in arms about mass edits destroying the delicate harmony of the front page. If they care at all, that is.
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive answer detected: Is there an idiom for "I'm not an expert when it comes to kinds of feces" by ej_dutch on english.stackexchange.com
 
Lynn Crumbling
Lynn Crumbling
@SmokeDetector fp
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
@LynnCrumbling Registered answer as false positive.
 
Braiam
Braiam
\int is the mathjax for the "function of" symbol?
 
Lynn Crumbling
Lynn Crumbling
3:38 PM
 
Braiam
Braiam
@Woodface ^?
 
Jason C
Jason C
3:53 PM
@Braiam \int is Mathjax for the integral symbol.
 
Lynn Crumbling
Lynn Crumbling
@Braiam Isn't "function of" just $f(x) ?
 
Braiam
Braiam
@LynnCrumbling yeah
 
Jason C
Jason C
@Frank I was utterly defeated after a mere 20 pancakes.
I must train harder.
 
Braiam
Braiam
@JasonC I was thinking it had an special call
 
Frank
Frank
@JasonC Haha, not bad.
 
ProgramFOX
ProgramFOX
4:05 PM
 
Undo
Undo
@ProgramFOX closed
 
ProgramFOX
ProgramFOX
thanks
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
4:22 PM
 
ʎǝʞuoɯɹǝqʎɔ
ʎǝʞuoɯɹǝqʎɔ
4:42 PM
 
Undo
Undo
voted
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
 
bummi
bummi
How to proceed here: superuser.com/q/894816/172747 He is generating a duplicate, including the answer in the question, how to close this one, as duplicate?
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
@bummi Still VTC as a dupe.
 
user259867
@bummi Why is the user not able to post an answer? Weird.
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
4:47 PM
@Woodface 1 rep, and it's protected.
 
user259867
Hmm. But if the answer is useful, it will be effectively lost within the duplicate question.
 
user259867
It would be nice to convert it to an actual answer, attributing it to the user.
 
user259867
Or two of us could upvote the question... how about that?
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
Maybe raise a custom flag, too?
 
user259867
Give the user 10 rep and tell them to post an answer.
 
user259867
4:49 PM
@bummi I agree that the user should remove the question, but if we want to preserve the content, I suggest giving another upvote and then recommending to copy-paste as an answer.
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
I've left a comment suggesting a course of action.
 
bummi
bummi
Let's hope he will do so ...
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
(or she ;) )
 
bummi
bummi
of course, sorry ...
 
Pham
Pham
 
ProgramFOX
ProgramFOX
4:54 PM
^ SPAM
I'll blacklist that domain in Smokey.
 
rene
rene
Two answers now!
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
What's the command to tell Smokey to blacklist something?
 
Jason C
Jason C
@Shog9 Comment conversation on meta.stackoverflow.com/q/288781/616460 is a good example of a bunch of people guessing about how a site mechanic works. The info is available, but I suspect it was only easy to find because I've been around enough to know what to look for.
... (That is, switch sites to MSE, search for "reputation cap", not the top result but scroll down until one looks about right, follow dupe link, read answer and meta.stackexchange.com/questions/32160/… - not in FAQ, incidentally.) Even that doesn't address any changes in cap calculation mechanics that may have happened recently though, e.g. Bergi's IIRC comment.
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
2x gone
 
Shog9
Shog9
@JasonC I have no idea how that works, and don't particularly care. If it's important to enough folks, they'll figure it out and document it.
(actually, this might be that thing Mysticial was on about with undownvotes not triggering rep-recalcs. If so, it's already documented somewhere and well known to the handful of folks who both retract downvotes and rep-cap on a regular basis)
 
user259867
4:59 PM
@AlexisKing There is no command, it's a thing developers do directly in the code. In other words, the command would be a pull request command in git.
 
Jason C
Jason C
The philosophy of "we write the software, you try your best to figure it out and document it" is not ideal.
It's weird to imagine SE folks looking at floundering comment conversations that pop up like that and saying "Yes, this is good. Carry on."
I think this has been changed a bit, but don't have the reference handy. — Lance Roberts Nov 19 '13 at 21:31
 
Shog9
Shog9
ok, so... If this is what I think it is, and my memory is accurate (neither of which are a given) then here's what's happening: normally, reputation is straight forward accounting. Things add to it, other things take away from it, and there's a cap on how much reputation you can earn from certain things in a given day that is independent of those things that take away reputation.
With me so far? Simple accounting. There's a page where you can see this happening.
Now, where it gets interesting is the bits about reputation loss and the cap.
You spend 1 point on a downvote and then immediately retract that downvote, you don't "gain" a point - those just negate each other.
But if you wait a day or so before retracting the point, there's nothing on the balance sheet to negate; you have effectively gained a point.
 
Jason C
Jason C
Don't explain it to me in a chat room - nobody will ever find this; stick it in the FAQ somewhere. I'm not particularly interested in that mechanic at this moment anyways, but others are. I used that specific example because it was recent and illustrative. Addressing Lance's comment that I quoted above could be a good start.
 
Shog9
Shog9
stay with me - I know this is hard to follow, but try to stay with me.
So, yeah - wrong balance sheet. You'd need to go back to [whatever day] the reputation was subtracted and use some digital white-out to make it add up properly.
That's an expensive task. So the system queues them up.
 
Jason C
Jason C
5:15 PM
I don't know why you're telling me how the reputation system works. Are you using this explanation as an example? If so, can we just skip to the punchline?
 
Shog9
Shog9
And not every rep change triggers the metaphorical guy with the bottle of whiteout.
So, for [some period of time], you'll have this spurious entry on your current balance sheet.
Or you won't.
Or you will, but you won't see it because you're not checking the site during that time.
 
Jason C
Jason C
I think he's on auto pilot. Look at the screen, Shog! LOOOK!! Types loudly.
 
Shog9
Shog9
It's really, really hard to predict.
 
Lynn Crumbling
Lynn Crumbling
It's a bot, @JasonC :)
 
Jason C
Jason C
I knew it!
 
Shog9
Shog9
5:17 PM
Which is why folks get confused when they do see it, because it doesn't make sense unless you know way too much about how this all works internally and you're hovering over the site like a hawk.
IOW, it doesn't make sense unless you're Mysticial.
 
Lynn Crumbling
Lynn Crumbling
@Shog9 I think @JasonC just want you to redirect the text into an FAQ or wiki.
 
Shog9
Shog9
And even then, it's just annoying.
...just like this explanation was.
DID YOU SEE HOW ANNOYING THIS EXPLANATION WAS?
2
YOU WANT THIS IN THE HELP CENTER? IN META FAQS?
 
Jason C
Jason C
So your point is... easily findable documentation is unnecessary, because only Mysticial cares?
 
Shog9
Shog9
no.
No one cares about this. Within a margin of error, no one ever needs to know it.
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
@Shog9 I don't. But apparently, The People do.
 
Jason C
Jason C
5:18 PM
Yeah, I do want to see that in the help center. I didn't think that explanation was annoying at all. What was annoying is the way you just presented it in chat.
 
Unihedro
Unihedro
... We need the Stack Overflow Academy.
2
 
Jason C
Jason C
Clearly nobody cares about it. Comment conversations like the one I linked to above are actually just me trolling you with a bunch of socks.
We need Stack Exchange How-the-hell-do-I-find-the-documentation Academy
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
@JasonC I'm telling you, it's all about the Meta-Meta Stack Exchange.
 
Lynn Crumbling
Lynn Crumbling
New badge idea: "No Accounting for Stupidity" -- demonstrate full understanding of the SO rep accounting system. Manually awarded.
 
Unihedro
Unihedro
Anyone want to give one more wreck on this question? stackoverflow.com/q/29287483/3622940
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
5:21 PM
In an elaborate plot-twist, @JasonC is just Shog's sock.
 
Unihedro
Unihedro
I feel like my edit wasn't enough, but can't tell what else to do.
 
Jason C
Jason C
Example question for SEHTHDIFTDA: "How do I find out how to find out how anything works around here?" A: "You don't need to find out, because you aren't Mysticial." Closed as "lacks minimal understanding" by @Shog9
 
Unihedro
Unihedro
Guys, let's go build Meta Meta Stack Exchange. xD
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
@Unihedro Area 51 gogogo
 
Unihedro
Unihedro
It's for Science, right?
 
rene
rene
5:22 PM
@Unihedro Thanks in Advance?
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
@rene Yeah, needs to be fixed to Thanks in advice.
 
rene
rene
:)
 
Jason C
Jason C
So anyways @Shog, when you add the above explanation to the FAQ, don't forget to tag it as faq and leave a back link to the index. :P
Also, the fact that you thought that the explanation was annoying (it wasn't), and that the annoyingness of it somehow proved a point, was pretty weak. I could post one of Tim Post's (or whoevers) blogs one line at a time in chat and justifiably say the blog entry itself was annoying by your logic. It's right up there with your comment the other day along the lines of "If you don't know about a change, nothing was probably changed."
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
[ SmokeDetector ] All-caps title: PERFUMES, LOTIONS SMELLS by Robin Brant-Lopez on workplace.stackexchange.com
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
@SmokeDetector gone
 
Shog9
Shog9
5:34 PM
@JasonC you were visibly - vocally - annoyed by it. And that's just the explanation for one tiny edge case that I'm not certain even applies here. Can you imagine how long a full documentation of the entire rep system would be? We could probably spend a good page just talking about what happens when you offer a bounty and then lose the reputation you spent on it and then earn some of it back.
who's going to read this book? Is someone getting their associate's degree in Fake Internet Point Accounting?
 
Jason C
Jason C
@Shog9 I wasn't annoyed by the explanation. Not even in the slightest. I thought it was fine. I was annoyed that you posted it in chat instead of somewhere publicly accessible. There goes your point. Try again.
 
Shog9
Shog9
@JasonC no you weren't. I already told you that this explanation is somewhere accessible.
You didn't care to find it.
And neither do I
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
grabs popcorn
 
Jason C
Jason C
Link please.
 
Shog9
Shog9
Which means not only weren't you upset that this isn't documented (because it is), you're not upset that you didn't know where to find it (because you don't actually care)
You're only upset about this because your current fixation is meta FAQs and how employees aren't writing enough of them.
You don't want to read them.
 
Jason C
Jason C
5:37 PM
That's not correct.
 
Shog9
Shog9
You just feel that, on principle, they should exist somewhere
 
Jason C
Jason C
That's part of it. But more than just on principle.
 
Shog9
Shog9
Like those dusty old binders full of requirements we used to have to write for enterprise software.
 
Jason C
Jason C
No, not like those at all.
 
Shog9
Shog9
No one ever read them, but management got scared if they didn't exist.
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
5:38 PM
downs another handful of popcorn
 
Shog9
Shog9
They weren't accurate, because updating them would've been a full-time job for someone and paying money for things no one reads is insane even in Corporate unless the Gov't says you have to.
 
Jason C
Jason C
I'm in one sentence mode, Jan - I hope you have a lot of popcorn.
 
Shog9
Shog9
But hey, they Existed. and that was enough.
And that's what you're asking for.
 
Jason C
Jason C
No, it's not.
 
Shog9
Shog9
A crapload of documentation that cannot possibly be kept up to date with the actual code.
 
Jason C
Jason C
5:39 PM
If keeping documentation up to date is not possible, that's a dropped ball on your part.
 
Shog9
Shog9
A map that is detailed enough to accurately represent the landscape it purports to in fine detail, and thus is actually as large as the landscape it represents.
 
Jason C
Jason C
(Plural "your")
 
Shog9
Shog9
And thus is completely impractical as a map.
A tool wholly impractical for any real use, but which satisfies pedantic tendencies.
 
Jason C
Jason C
No, Shog, by whatever logic you're using, all documentation for all systems is ineffective. By contrast, successful documentation exists, just not SE's.
It is possible to document things in an organized and useful manner. For reference, consult your favorite set of documentation on any product.
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
@JasonC SE does have a useful FAQ
 
Shog9
Shog9
5:41 PM
@JasonC The question that you started with an hour ago or whatever? That wouldn't have been fixed by documentation. That would've have been satisfied by the answer I posted here in chat, even if that answer was accurate (which I'm not sure it was).
 
Jason C
Jason C
Yes, it has a useful FAQ.
 
Shog9
Shog9
Why? Because it's a bug report.
The asker isn't curious to know what devious systems contributed to his +1
He already found the audit tool that tells him what actually happened.
He just doesn't want the little green +1 on his top bar.
Saying, "Hey, here's a book on how the rep system works - if you turn to page 861, you'll find an obscure accounting rule that means we must show you a little green +1" - that ain't gonna make him happy.
What would make him happy would be not bothering him about meaningless rep changes.
Which... We might be able to do.
 
Jason C
Jason C
Just so we're not misunderstanding, are you asserting that keeping SE documentation up to date is an impossible task? Or that accurate documentation of any system in general is impossible? Or that only Mysticial cares?
 
Shog9
Shog9
Although it would probably make the system even more complex.
@JasonC I'm saying your premise is invalid and you're being disingenuous in your arguments.
There is no reasonable amount of documentation that can preemptively satisfy everyone's curiosity about this system.
So we document it as-needed.
Some things we know will be needed by a lot of people, and try to get ahead of them by writing up how it works.
 
Jason C
Jason C
Ok. My premise has three parts: 1. Documentation for various site features is scattered in a way that is difficult to find. However, it exists. This is minor. While I would like to see it more readily available, that is just personal preference. 2. Documentation is not kept up to date. It's not possible to keep it up to date here. It's not possible because of the way it is scattered. Even if a user wanted to keep something up to date, they couldn't. At the moment,...
 
Shog9
Shog9
5:45 PM
Even then we usually have to go back and revise, either because we missed something or included details that were just confusing, or the system changed in response to feedback.
 
Jason C
Jason C
...only SE devs can keep it up to date, but this presents a problem, because you guys have other things to worry about that take priority.
 
Shog9
Shog9
Preemptive documentation is busywork. Dusty binders on a shelf that no one reads.
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
keeping information up to date != preemption
 
Pham
Pham
Low Quality A (TPA'd by Sam): I like booty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!booty!!!!!!!!!!, by □ user9173, on sports.stackexchange.com.
 
Jason C
Jason C
3. I posit that people do care, with evidence such as the example above, and also the desire that many people seem to have to participate in conversations about new features and such on meta. This participation is a great strength here. The difficulty in accessing available information and the consequent inability to keep it up to date, however, undermines the strength.
That is my premise @Shog, as clearly as I can formulate it while typing as quickly as possible in this chat room.
Correction/clarification: "even if a user wanted to keep something up to date, they couldn't". They could, but I believe it is prohibitively difficult.
 
Shog9
Shog9
5:48 PM
@JanDvorak There's nothing to keep up to date here. The behavior we're talking about has been in place for years; it's documented in at least one bug report on MSE, but it's super low priority because it just doesn't come up that often and the side-effects are really minor. Putting this in the official reputation faq would be crazy, a distraction for the majority of readers.
 
Jason C
Jason C
@Shog9 Then at the bare minimum, in this specific example, go reply to meta.stackexchange.com/questions/32160/… with a confirmation that it is up to date.
 
Pham
Pham
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
Can we have a system that allows to index all available information without being confusing?
 
Shog9
Shog9
@JasonC ...wat?
Are you... asking me to reply to an answer that's been valid for years just to say "this is still not wrong"?
 
Jason C
Jason C
Yes.
 
Shog9
Shog9
5:51 PM
you're crazy.
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
Such confirmation will become just as outdated
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
I'm honestly going to have to agree with @Shog here. I'm all in favor of documentation, but SE is not that sort of product; it's not an API or software service that needs documentation on its internals. A camera's manual doesn't need to describe how exactly it works, it just needs to describe how to operate it.
This is a bit of a grey area, but I don't think it needs to be documented in some canonical way.
 
Jason C
Jason C
@Shog9 Ok. There's something that I think is important that I think you are overlooking. It is a key point: Just because something hasn't changed, if doubts are present about how up-to-date it is, then confidence is reduced. I believe doubts are present, for two reasons. 1) Minor reason: Documentation date is old. But of course, if nothing's changed, that's totally reasonable. 2) Major reason: If parts of docs are often shown to be outdated, then lack of trust in other parts occurs.
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
Remember how Jeff said "Meta is Murder"?
This is why.
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
@AlexisKing "ignorance is bliss"?
 
Anna Lear
Anna Lear
5:54 PM
@Pham I think we can all agree on that.
 
Jason C
Jason C
So, in general, constantly confirming that docs are up to date is silly. But SE is a special case. It is a complicated system that is often discussed and few people seem to know how it works. The documentation is scattered, and the stage is set for a culture of documentation that can't be immediately trusted. When you look up a meta post that documents something, and your first automatic reaction is 'I should check around to see if this has changed', then that is a bigger picture issue.
 
Shog9
Shog9
The actual relevant MSE post is this one. Read it carefully - this is not a simple bug. — Shog9 ♦ 9 secs ago
That, I think, is appropriate.
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
@JanDvorak Caring about weird little edge cases is a waste of everyone's time. The site works, dammit.
 
Jan Dvorak
Jan Dvorak
@AlexisKing "the site works" - [citation-needed]
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
@JanDvorak Whether or not it works, this is the least of its problems. :P
 
Jason C
Jason C
5:56 PM
So I'm not proposing to constantly comfort people by repeatedly telling them that "everything is still correct". I'm trying (key word "trying") to make a point that there's a bigger systemic issue, and that ideally a help/documentation system would give users implicit trust that what they are seeing is correct, so this kind of "comfort" wouldn't need to be considered in the first place.
 
Shog9
Shog9
Incidentally, I have a huge amount of meta topics indexed by who wrote them; user:xxxx searches are a great way to narrow down results.
 
Jon Ericson
Jon Ericson
@JasonC Having worked on a few big projects other than SE, I'd say that the documentation is always scattered. The nice thing about meta is that at least users can update the documentation that matters to them as needed. That's not often the case.
 
Jason C
Jason C
@JonEricson Forgive me for not having an example on hand, but if documentation is scattered through comments, various answers on various sites, and various Help Centers and FAQs, how can a user who updates a meta post be sure that they haven't left any inconsistent explanations around elsewhere?
 
Lynn Crumbling
Lynn Crumbling
There is value in the MSDN page field, "Last Reviewed" ...
 
Alexis King
Alexis King
@JasonC They can't, but (1) I don't think that's as massive a problem as you're making it out to be and (2) if inconsistencies are discovered, they can be pretty easily fixed.
Everything on SE is dated with a timestamp.
 
Jason C
Jason C
5:59 PM
How many posts, for example, do you think exist that explain various aspects of how, say, one of the review queues works? How does a user know to update all of those? Diligent marking of duplicates, maybe, to tie it all together, although this still leaves inconsistent information intact, and ruffles feathers too if the duplicates aren't exact.
 
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