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00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

5:16 PM
What's happening all?
general hackyness
Sounds more fun than my endevours
@AidenBell Uh oh, what's up? Also, 'ello
I have been here, catching a glimpse of the chat-wonderment but ... lurking
@TimStone - PHP, also, hello :)
@AidenBell Hey there. Working on XMPP again myself
5:18 PM
Ah, that explains a lot already. ;) Anything in particular, or just trying to get stuff done? :)
@TheUnhandledException How's that going? Good to hear you made a start :P
@TimStone - Yea, being productive actually ... just boring code is all. Drudgery
Ah yeah, I can sympathize with that.
@AidenBell Going well thanks. I have a working script with read only access to this room and the XMPP room which @rchern @TimStone @balpha and @radp are helping me test
and mediumdeviation but I forgot who that is, LOL
@TheUnhandledException @YiJiang I think. :P
5:20 PM
@TimStone Test harnessing transactions in a PHP object mapper and about to start fiddling with a Paypal IPN handler ... yawn.
@TheUnhandledException - That sounds good to me, you know what they say, read is only a +w away from write
@TimStone Ah yes, thanks. Forgive me @YiJiang :-)
@AidenBell Heh. In this case,it may be only a bit but I have to get root first :-)
nice edit
@AidenBell Yours changed so mine had to follow :-)
@TheUnhandledException - What I look forward to with XMPP is bots that can provide awesome stuff for us
Like XKCD updates
Like candy, delicious candy.
5:23 PM
and candy
@AidenBell Now that's a good idea, I didn't even think of that
You'll need to register SO usernames for 'em
Well, one username
wouldn't that already work? I mean, you can add feeds now...
@rchern - Yea, but ... but .... errm ... 2.0
5:27 PM
@AidenBell Feeds2.0 would talk back to us!!!
in The SO Tavern (General) on Stack Overflow Chat, 25 secs ago, by Aiden Bell
@Josh - I know! Room mirroring ... what I say in MSO gets piped here via bot!
IT version of the totally legit candy van, I guess.
easiest way to infect a business? put something on a usb stick and leave it on the ground (;
@radp - it'd be great if there were public USB drives on string everywhere.
@AidenBell source
5:36 PM
@radp Your wall has USB 2?
@TheUnhandledException not yet.
@radp - awesome.
out of curiosity, @the, is there any way you could get the Markdown and not its HTTP rendering through on XMPP?
Actually this is still an issue. Text like:
*This is a test*
Shows up in XMPP as:
<i>This is a test</i>
When it should be italic.
I'll bet that the text I send to the xmpp4r library gets HTML encoded... so I need to find a way to send raw XML to the XMPP client, then I can *remove* the HTML entities decoder I just added.
oh? XMPP natively supports HTML?
5:39 PM
So to answer your question @radp yes, I'm sure it's possible, I just need to figure out how to send raw XML to the xmpp4r library
@radp XMPP is all XML-based
Yes, and HTML isn't really a XML language.
so italics in XMPP is <i>
@radp True, but the commands for formatting are the same
and you can do <a href=""> links?
when you bold, italicize or link in Pidgin, it sends the HTML we all know and love
@radp Yup
and all the sorts of fancy oneboxes that will come through the pipe?
5:40 PM
@radp Am I the only one who still thinks XHTML is a good idea and doesn't SO encode markdown to HTML before piping it to the browser
but right now I send <i>test</i> to the XMPP library, and it's converting that to &lt;i&gt;test...
@radp That, I doubt
@TheUnhandledException that was the point, it'd have been easier to receive markdown and parse it yourself :)
and skip the oneboxing, which, while nice, doesn't really work there.
@radp hey, wait a second. That wasn't converted to a shortened link via XMPP. I guess it's JS shenanigans.
@radp I agree
I was expecting I would be receiving markdown
I was surprised to receive HTML
because I sometimes momentarily see markdown in chat messages
Im still searching for a web app delivered as XML and then XSLT is performed in-browser.
The problem, @Aiden, is that XML is a pain to work with generally.
5:45 PM
@radp - not found it myself. It is bulky true, but it is just a format ... abstract it.
@AidenBell Maybe it's the Python libraries, but they're all bulky to work with.
JSON is more of a joy to use.
@radp - Agreed
Then again, you can't really do everything with JSON.
@radp - Any callback based XML parser is a bitch
What is needed is a DOM/jQuery-like XML parser API
jQuery isn't what I'd call "Pythonic" tbh
not completely, at any rate.
then again JS does have its limitations. (Setters would go a long way.)
5:48 PM
@radp - call chaining is always funky in any language, but at least you can spot it
eh, I was thinking more about how some methods return jQuery objects and how others return DOM objects and you can't really guess which does what.
Yea, but if you were making an API in that style, you just split calls into terminal and non-terminal
non-terminals always return a common type/subtype
Q: Help us redesign the Stack Overflow homepage

Jeff AtwoodThe homepage for all Stack Exchange sites is intentionally simple: it's a list of the last (n) questions by activity date. Activity date means new questions, or questions with new answers or new edits. This has worked reasonably well for the last two years, but it is breaking down on Stack Ov...

Those both do the same thing though?
@radp, I disagree. It isn't a guessing game.
5:52 PM
Oh, ten edits later ;)
@TimStone now I'm even more confused.
allo @Jeff
Hey there @Jeff, how goes?
It's an array of DOM objects... wtf? <_<
and why did I stumble the first time? oh right! each.
5:52 PM
@radp - sshhhh it's ok
jquery is voodoo anyway
hey @jeff.
it's actually probabilistic what any call returns, but jquery always knows.
and a bonus side mission for you guys -- why is our comment question character counter so damn slow on the iPhone / iPad? must be something about that jquery code
@JeffAtwood Tough question, I'll need to think on that one
Right, the .each situation isn't returning DOM elements though, it sets the context of the function to be the DOM element.
5:53 PM
@JeffAtwood - do we win an iPad?
@radp, I think the way it works is absolutely reasonable. shrugs
Hey everyone, @JeffAtwood is giving away an iPad
an imaginary one, in your mind
@AidenBell We win his old router... oh wait, @Sathya got that already ;-)
@rchern Hahah
5:54 PM
@JeffAtwood - I only see apple hardware in my nightmares
@JeffAtwood Sorry, I a) have no iPhone/iPad to test with, and b) am currently too bust with the XMPP side mission :-)
@JeffAtwood since you expect avid users to not use the homepage anyway, why not offer the possibility to filter it down to interesting tags only?
@JeffAtwood, I fear that unicorns may be trying to take over the world. One of them must've dropped some money in my house after breaking in. ):
@JeffAtwood Heh, I noticed that too... /blame Safari
I fear that someone stole my mail :(
@rchern It's responses like this that are the reason he rarely responds to us in chat ;-)
5:57 PM
are you saying that isn't a justified message?! What will you say once the unicorns do take over ):
@rchern Actually I for one welcome our new Unicorn overlords
I fear a hostile takeover though ):
If it wasn't hostile, why are they sneaking into my house!
I'd have invited them in for cookies...
@rchern Maybe they're just shy...but also creepy.
Really? No stars for the unicorn overlords? I'm confused. Oh right. This isn't Slashdot
5:59 PM
begging for stars? tsk tsk
@TheUnhandledException Slashdot doesn't have stars. That said, star transferred.
@radp No. But slashdot does have unicorn overlords.
@TheUnhandledException Here, have a (+0, Meme)
+0 hehe
damns Pringles for praying on my Umami weakness with MSG
6:06 PM
@AidenBell That makes me hungry. I haven't eaten lunch yet
You have meaty Pringles?
@TimStone - They are BBQ, but, all pringles contain MSG which activates umami sensors
Maybe food would help me figure out how a SOChatFeed can look up an SOChatRoom when the SOChatRooms are stored as member variables of the SOChatBridge but the SOChatFeed doesn't have a way to talk to the SOChatBridge...
is eating Pocky
umami triggers serotonin and dopamine interestingly ... hence "once you pop you just can't stop"
6:10 PM
@AidenBell Hm, that's not listed as an ingredient here.. I didn't know that last part, interesting.
@AidenBell I thought that was due to trace amount of crack cocaine?
Oh nevermind I'm thinking old time Coca-Cola
Ah, it seems like the flavoured Pringles all do indeed have MSG
@TimStone - I found one that didn't in the UK
I only looked because it wasn't as "can't stop"y
Heheh. :P
I thought "Why am I not craving more?" .... "Ah, no MSG"
6:14 PM
You have kebab flavoured Pringles? That seems both wrong and delicious at the same time.
OK. Enough food talk. I'm going to get lunch :-)
Pocky FTW!
@TheUnhandledException Enjoy :)
@TimStone Thanks!
Catch everyone later. Feel free to @the me with XMPP issues
Don't break my server now! :-D
But completely trashing it was on my todo list! Now what will I do?
6:19 PM
does jQuery let you sort items in a way similar to Python's? (with the key parameter)
I know, how are we supposed to have fun now? ):
Ok, ok, completely trash it. See if I care!
like sort([1, 5, -2, 3], key = abs) => [1, -2, 3, 5]
It's been kicking me off all day long anyway :-P
6:21 PM
@TheUnhandledException, I guess @TimStone got started early.
I'll be at P.F. Changs, with more important things to worry about than XMPP servers ;-)
Later guys.
umpf. HTMLCollection's don't have a sort method.
what are you trying to do?
@radp You can $.makeArray() it first
A: Help us redesign the Stack Overflow homepage

radpInstead of sorting questions by their activity, sort questions by their adjusted activity. A question's freshness gets a 20% freshness penalty per ignored tag. A question's freshness gets a 25% freshness boost per interesting tag.

see how the homepage would change with this change.
6:32 PM
WTF Facebook? "See Friendship"?
wtf, JS arrays don't have a contains method?
@radp as always, jQuery to the rescue :)
@balpha I was rather looking for an intersect method :)
contains would've been useful for a filter implementation
there's Array.filter, but not all browsers support it
(JS 1.6, I think)
for being such a strongly functional language, JS has surprisingly few functional tools
"JavaScript: The do it your damn self language.™"
6:46 PM
now I need to subtract dates. fml.
7:04 PM
so...I have several internal drives I need to search that aren't plugged in. I hate shutting down. Dilemma ):
@rchern I have a USB thingadongdong for this, heh. :P
Or you need hot swap support!
this instead of this by applying this
yes, those PNGs are 8 megs each and still horrible quality (1265×10759).
sorry, but 8 megs is a bit unfair
for people with slow connections
@balpha I've edited it in already
ah, okay
I love this comment:
//actual goodness
works on so many levels :)
7:20 PM
Heheh :)
I think .20 and .25 was a bit too much maybe.
Oh well.
Nevermind I used .25 both ways.
the most fun part of creating the weighting functions is always coming up with the right constants
hey, .4 works pretty well!
oh, no -- this one should be onthe bottom, let's try .3
Yeah, the obvious solution is adding a slider and leaving it to the user to figure out :P
wait, what constant did I have that kinda worked?
If you're feeling generous add some labels
7:22 PM
@balpha I liked the original solution of trying the same thing until the system caves and just decides to give you what you want. ;)
None <===========o===========> Extreme
man, that get_adjusted_freshness function would need memoization so badly :/
function get_adjusted_freshness() {
    return "Very minty";
It still gets evaluated potentially many times with the same arguments :/
I wonder if I could've gotten away with adding a new field to those anchors.
Inbuilt objects rarely like being fiddled with that way however.
7:33 PM
Meh, worry about optimization where you need it
function freshness_comparator(a,b){ //SIGH!
  x = get_adjusted_freshness(a);
  y = get_adjusted_freshness(b);
  if(x > y) return -1;
  if(x < y) return 1;
  return 0;

$("#question-mini-list .question-summary").sortElements(freshness_comparator)
@balpha I'd dare say get_adjusted_freshness is the bulk of it.
That sortElements thing did freeze the browser for a noticeable while (a couple tenths of seconds, maybe?).
(This is why Python dropped the cmp parameter in sort(), leaving you with key.)
side note: array.sort is fine with (negative or positive), it doesn't need (-1 or +1)
@balpha will try and keep that in mind. Changes to return y-x;.
7:48 PM
var memo = [];
for (var good = 0; good <= 5; good++)
	for (var bad = 0; bad <= 5; bad++)
		memo.push(Math.pow(0.25, good) / Math.pow(0.20, bad))

function get_adjusted_freshness(question_summary){
  var tags = _get_tags(question_summary);
  var good_tags = tags.intersect(interesting_tags).length;
  var bad_tags = tags.intersect(ignored_tags).length;
  var last_activity = new Date($(question_summary).find(".started .relativetime")
hm, I would've thought it's the jQuery parser work that took the most time...
why are you memoizing the maths part?
I didn't profile, mind you.
I was thinking something more along the lines of:
oh yeah, gotcha now
you're probably right
jQuery is slooooow
kill me for that -- but it's true
function freshness_comparator(a,b){ //SIGH!
  if(a.freshness == undefined)
    a.freshness = get_adjusted_freshness(a);
  if(b.freshness == undefined)
    b.freshness = get_adjusted_freshness(b);
  return b.freshness - a.freshness; //chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/259346#259346
@Chacha102 Hey
7:52 PM
If you were taking notes on a computer, what features would make an application attractive for you?
for the chat.SO easter egg, I actually had to (shudder!) work on the HTML elements' .style instead of using $.css to make it even remotely performant
@balpha What is the easter egg?
try to parse HTML with a regex
@Chacha102 no-fuss PDF annotations
that's really all I need.
@balpha How do I "parse HTML with a regex"?
7:54 PM
like, begin dragging on what I want to annotate, stop dragging where I want the annotation to appear, start typing annotation in newly created callout.
maybe shift-drag to add lines.
@Chacha102 easiest: <[^>]>
@balpha I like it!
5 messages moved to The Trash Heap
@radp There is my response to that!
@Chacha102 you ask people for suggestions then trash them?
see you in a week
@Chacha102 try that with jQuery.animate -- it's slow even on a fast machine
7:57 PM
@radp No .. I just trashed you're "Go forth and code!" thing..
I like the idea
PDFs are a pain in the butt frankly..
PDFs are fun
if you have a lot of time...
time is something I don't have at the moment..
I have the time to write some code
but not that much code
I once took the time to really look into the PDF format. Once you get the hang of it, it's pretty neat
why doesn't SO's Markdown allow javascript: urls :/
@radp it will, as soon as there's the /(?:/&%$&%$&%$:.*)/ operator, meaning "matched only by JavaScript code that's not evil"
8:04 PM
couldn't you just have it match either $ or jQuery?
$ is a reserved symbol in regex
also, you might be using the $.skynet plugin
.skynet doesn't match.
however, guaranteed to be non-evil programs like this do:
oh, so beautiful code
A++, would code again
damn. i do have to shutdown.
rchernbot switching to hibernate mode
8:45 PM
note to self: label hdds so that you don't have to try hdd after hdd ):
Hint: A:\ is probably your 5.25" 360k floppy drive
no floppy in this computer. and in my secondary computer i took out the floppy years ago to add a 3rd hdd
You're so avant-garde!
oooh, what if your OS fails to boot for any reason @rchern?
do you maybe have one of those fancy BIOSes that can boot from CD?
I bet you'll upgrade to 32bit CPU soon
8:52 PM
my secondary computer was top of the line in 2002 (:
@balpha is that compatible with Win3.1?
i kept the floppy drive, it just stayed in the closet.
9:28 PM
I like the logic in there.
10:07 PM
This is the answer:
A: Help us redesign the Stack Overflow homepage

BarryYou could add a new set of tabs underneath the Active tab. New Tab This would be actual new questions not questions that have been edited or answered. Nice new and shiny questions with zero answers. Updated Tab This would be all the other questions - recently edited or recently answered. Yo...

I don't really like it.
SO doesn't need more complexity.
For starters, tabs are really views, so adding views under views makes no sense.
i mainly wish there was a way to do OR tag searching
@rchern +10
My wish is to be able to do AND text searching without having to quote every word.
As I pointed out to Jeff in a comment, Google Search doesn't work as well for SO because it won't do Advanced Searches, like views:0.
10:18 PM
Happy Halloween Everyone...
Halloween is for Halloweenies.
I know.
I shouldn't have.
Couldn't resist.
Still should've.
Come on bubble thing.
It's OK, I'm not really celebrating :-)
Woo! I got it to collapse.
10:20 PM
Just handing out candy to trick-or-treaters... to prevent my house from getting egged ;-)
Sorry for the flood.
10:33 PM
In my day we waited for it to get dark out before trick-or-treating, like civilized people
you? civilized?
Back then I was. Then the Internet arrived, and everything changed
11:10 PM
user image
Heh :P
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