Discussion with Sam about Meta site

3ventic

4:15 PM

I'm interested

Shadow Wizard

OK guys, have fun... I got to go :)

Play it nice, that's all I ask

Sam

First of all I've to apologize because of the tones I used in my posts here on meta

Shadow Wizard

Keep in mind guys that Sam is question banned on Meta so he can't express his opinions there anymore

Sam

I was trying to some some hints for improving the guidelines

putting in light some issues

Jan Dvorak

... that ended up rejected by the community.

3ventic

4:19 PM

I need to skim through...

Sam

can you have a look at this discussion?

1

Q: Can you explain me the REAL difference between asking for the best softwares, some good softwares or some softwares?

The formal difference is obvious, and there is a strong difference in many contexts, but I can't see any difference in a website like this. Infact what are you expecting to read as an answer to the following questions? Can you list me the best software*s* to make a forensyc analysis tool that...

discussion

Jan Dvorak

I got to go now unexpectedly, sorry

3ventic

mm

Sam

I find the answer very interesting..

3ventic

Grace Note's?

Sam

4:23 PM

yes

many people think as the word "best" as something that deals with opinionable..

and usually this is the most common usage of the word itself

3ventic

It's because "the best" (almost always) differs from person to person

Sam

yes, of course

but I've tried to show that when we ask for some software for doing X, or some good software for doing X or for the best softwares to doing X

the answer is not quite different..

3ventic

That seems correct

Sam

the real question we are making is to advice the best software that can do X

the important part of the sentence

the one which makes a great difference is "that can do X"

I think

So I was against the demonization of the word "best"

the opinion of Grace Note is that using or not using "best" is just window dressing

what do you think about?

3ventic

hmm

I think it's that most people, when they see best/good/whatever else similar immediately narrow the question down to something that is only supposed to help the OP reach his/her best, while the aim of SE is to be helpful to anyone who might find the question

It might not make a difference, really, but it's something the community is so used to, it feels absurd to even consider the alternative

Sam

4:31 PM

ok.. let's assume you're right. but in that case it would not be convenient to let users open a question which actually seems to be closed for a "window dressing" reason

I mean..

it could be hard for the final user to understand why SE is closing his answer

3ventic

Closing a question for having the word, especially on SR, is dumb IMO.

Sam

I totally agree..

but very often it seems to me that some kind of words / flags are being demonized by most of users..

I would rather lock the question until the user modifies it instead than closing because of "window dressing" reason

3ventic

There are a lot of unwritten "rules" on SE, especially on SO and even I'm still trying to learn some of them

Sam

I understand..

Can I show you another example which leaves me a bit disappointed?

3ventic

Yeah, sure.

Sam

4:36 PM

I totally admit I was upset and my tone was wrong

Have a look at my answer here

meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/121350/…

I was already banned

I cited some piece of the answer by "Andrew Barber"

And he deleted the question because it was OT.

Ok, let's say he is completely right.

3ventic

I can't see your answer

Sam

I will take a screenshot

one second

3ventic

I personally think question bans on meta are bad as a whole

Sam

another user said that you have to be troll-y to be banned..

I think I just expressed my opinion

3ventic

Not true, but it's rare

Sam

4:45 PM

opinionable opinion maybe..

3ventic

It's usually just troll-y people, but I've seen a few legit users

Sam

I've tried to express my opinion, and show some "issue" and contraddiction

in the wrong way

3ventic

I tried to find the latest example I saw, which was related to a good answer, but I can't seem to find it

Sam

it's in another section

software reccomendetions meta

3ventic

I meant about the question ban on MSO from legit discussions being downvoted

Personally, I don't even agree how discussions are being voted on

Sam

4:53 PM

yes, I think the same..

Have a look at my discussion.. maybe I expressed very badly, but sometimes I have the impression that downvotes are too hurried..

3ventic

They usually are too hurried.

Sam

How can the guidelines change if the result of expressing a different idea is being downvoted and being downvoted lead to being banned?

3ventic

I'd try on a site-meta first

Unfortunately, SO doesn't have one yet

Sam

what is site meta?

it's not this? meta.stackoverflow.com

3ventic

It's a name for the meta sites, which are specific to a main site and inherit the reputation

meta.stackoverflow.com is special, because it's also the meta for the whole network

It also has its own reputation

Sam

5:01 PM

ah, I understand

3ventic

232

Q: Stack Overflow is getting a place of its own

We've grown considerably as a network since the days of the original trilogy, when the prospect of growing into a network of over 100 thriving Q&A sites was a distant glimmer in a cloudy night sky. Today, Stack Overflow continues to graciously host discussions about the entire network on its extr...

discussion featured stackoverflow meta mso-mse-split

meta.stackoverflow should become a site-meta by the end of this month and meta.stackexchange the new network meta

Sam

interesting

However I tried to suggest some "errors" that are bound to human psychology

on meta

and obviously I got downvoted very fast..

I try to explain better.. I've complained that human sometimes are too hurried in downvoting or that they are emotional

I got 13 downvote, 16 and 23 on three questions and at the end I got banned

meta.stackoverflow.com/users/247814/sam?tab=questions

3ventic

I need to go now

Sam

ok, thanks a lot for your time

3ventic

If you want to get the question ban lifted, you might want to talk to a community manager or something

The downvoted questions don't seem worthy of a ban

Sam

5:13 PM

yes, of course

but who can I speak with?

ProgramFOX

@Sam Another possibility to lift the ban is to post a lot of high-quality answers.

Sam

@ProgramFOX yes.. I've tried to post some answers but after my "polemic" behavior they were took for polemic as well. I'm just an user here on meta.. it seems really hard to me to achieve reputation score here..

since this section is not really a Q&A section.. on bug I cannot achieve any points.. and answering in discussion I'm loosing points.. since it's enough to say something not shared by others to be downvoted.

ProgramFOX

5:28 PM

@Sam So, because you have posted some "polemic" questions, people are prejudiced. Is that what you think?

Sam

@ProgramFOX I hope it's not like that.. but in some way I also take into consideration that moderator are human..

With 3ventic we were also speaking of hurried downvoting..

but the fact is also that, for sure, I've maken some mistakes.

but if you read my questions I don't think I was troll-y or I deserved a banning..

I try to explain with an example what I mean

ProgramFOX

Yes, that's the disadvantage of an automatic Qban.

Sam

let's say in Italy 30 Million vote for Berlusconi. I try to explain my opinion documenting the issue of Berlusconi's politics. People doesn't want to change their mind (in psychology this phenomenon is well studied and documented and is common to every human being). If I'm not a great communicator people starts to downvote me.

Downvoting automatically lead to ban..

logical consequence is =>

1) it's harder to express your opinion if it conflicts with other's opinion

yes, I could express better for sure..

but I improved a lot my way of expressing in my last post in software reccomendation meta and also in the last answers.. but now it's later..

Can I ask what's your opinion about?

ProgramFOX

@Sam Yes, I think that if you feel that you can express yourself better now than when posting your downvoted questions, improve them.

As I don't feel that you really deserve a ban, go to the Contact Us page and ask the team to unban you.

Sam

Ok, I will try to modify them.
Do you also think that there could be some issue on the handling of votes?

ProgramFOX

5:42 PM

@Sam What do you mean exactly by 'handling of votes'?

Sam

I mean.. I read in a post that downvote here measure the agreement or not agreement on a proposal

but votes are also used to ban people

I see a strong issue on that..

Here Andrew Barber explains how it should be read downvote on meta

meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/121350/…

And this was my answer.. img585.imageshack.us/img585/6210/vvrk.png

ProgramFOX

@Sam On Meta, downvotes don't always mean that a post is low quality, but also that people disagree with what you say.

Sam

@ProgramFOX yes, the logical consequence of that is that an user can get banned if expresses opinion that other people doesn't agree with..

ProgramFOX

I know. And that's the disadvantage of it. But unfortunately, there is not much to do about it.

Jan Dvorak

there is. Don't auto-ban on meta

Sam

5:49 PM

@JanDvorak yes.. I completely agree

ProgramFOX

Strange: a question that suggest to remove auto-ban on Meta is both [status-completed] and [status-declined]

Sam

I think we are saying that there is an issue that makes almost impossible to express an opinion wich is countercurrent

ProgramFOX

@JanDvorak Agree, but the team doesn't want to remove the ban completely.

Jan Dvorak

@ProgramFOX should we ask them for another mildening?

ProgramFOX

We could do that, and see what will happen.

Sam

5:56 PM

If you have time I would also like to show you another topic for which I got downvoted. My question was marked as a dup. And.. ok, let's say it was right. But My question and the following seems to me better than the previous topic.

I've put a lot of effort and also the answering guy did the same.

1

Q: Can you explain me the REAL difference between asking for the best softwares, some good softwares or some softwares?

The formal difference is obvious, and there is a strong difference in many contexts, but I can't see any difference in a website like this. Infact what are you expecting to read as an answer to the following questions? Can you list me the best software*s* to make a forensyc analysis tool that...

discussion

6

Q: Is it acceptable to use 'best' in a question?

Obviously, a question like "What is the best Linux distro" is just BAD in every way, but if it is a narrower question ( like "What is the best Linux distro for everyday use on my old G4 PowerBook" ), is it still OK? In other words, is the word 'best' bad in itself, because it causes opinion base...