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12:00 AM
I was supremely excited when I could finally edit other posts, that was the big one for me
@MichaelMrozek Yeah that's been so much fun
voting to close and editing
Actually, on StackOverflow, being able to edit others' stuff is my favorite priv. Up/Down vote totals was my goal on Meta
because I love seeing how divided the community is on things
12:02 AM
I want 10k on meta so I can finally see deleted posts; they're constantly linked from other posts
Oh, you're at 3001 on SO. I suppose it would be wrong to downvote a random answer of yours right now
@MichaelMrozek I want 10K on any site but I doubt that will happen. I finally got 3k on SO after 1 year 5 months :-)
lol @MichaelMrozek
@MichaelMrozek Feel free. I'll just go answer more questions
And flag all your chat posts HAHA
ya know, you don't need 10K on public beta SE2.0 sites :P
Yeah, I'm really close to 2k on Unix. So close...
@Josh You're impressively balanced; most people have a lot of rep on one trilogy site and none on the others
12:06 AM
@MichaelMrozek Thanks :-) I've worked hard to do that
12:20 AM
Well I'm off for the night. Catch you guys/gals later!
7 hours later…
7:24 AM
How's the commute today?
top o' the mornin'
(blink) It's morning already?
Train is late -_-
@Diago 07:25 UTC =)
@Sekhat fffffffffffffffffffffffail
7:25 AM
It is here :)
@badp Actually it's 09:26 GMT+2. But I doubt I am awake yet.
Yeah, I know, I'm in UTC+2 too
Still on summer time here so 08:25 for me
@Sekhat, wow, what time do you start work (in theory)?
9 to 9.30. If i arrive on the latter i only get half a lunch break .
7:29 AM
'til what time in the evening?
You should've skipped yesterday's to get a full break today!!
Or 17.30 if you prefer 24h clock
@Sekhat So it's you poor souls who flood my 1818 trains!
so a nominal 8-hour day?
7:30 AM
Sounds good, I once worked for a company with a 37-hour week, stopped at half three on fridays IIRC
The following job was 42.5h week...
Bet those extra 5 hours made all the difference.
to the boss, yeh... Admittedly it was in a different country, with different 'cultural norms', and one was industry, the other service...
If there is one thing i dont like with my commute + work time. Its that it leaves little time for much else in the week
Ah where did you move from and to?
I know the feeling, I lose min 1h per day on commute.
@Sekhat UK->CH
7:38 AM
:) you prefer life away from the UK?
Long story, but as a picture is worth a thousand words, here's 2000:
I see your point.
So it's more geographic than cultural/national.
There are hell-holes in Swissland too, and beautiful places in the UK. Just difficult to find work in the latter.
:) As a developer?
I suppose. Cant say ive added beauty to my list of wants out of a location.
Thatll change im sure :p
@Sekhat Well, yeah
@Sekhat It's a long story, as I said, the scenery was one factor amongst many, not the most important. More of a happy side-effect
7:48 AM
Hmm, brb, cant roll a ciggy and chat at the same time :p
Can anyone explain this one to me? My brain seems dead this morning
Q: Is this an error on Stack Overflow?

pranayhttp://stackoverflow.com/questions/3624271/get-me-the-clear-picture-of-outer-joins-in-oracle-9i/3624289#3624289 shows 1 upvote and when click on it shows below image

I don't get what you want here?
@LasseVKarlsen I don't get the error he is trying to describe?
The answer originally showed 1 upvote
But when you clicked on it, it expands to show +1 and -1
which adds up to 0
@LasseVKarlsen Yep. My brain is fried this morning. Thanks :) I missed the math
7:57 AM
right now the votes are +2 and -1, which adds up to +1, but when the error was reported, it was +1 and -1, which adds up to 0, yet the answer showed 1 upvote
that is, that is what I get from the posts there, I can't verify it, my time machine is on the fritz today
could be a byproduct of the caching done, if I were to hazard a guess
I really just wanted to give a proper title.
but I thought caching was only done for the front page, not for the question pages, I thought those always showed real live data
@LasseVKarlsen You are correct. Only the front page is cached, and the vote breakdown is also retrieved live. Which is why it has a 1000+ rep requirement if I recall correctly
Hm, ReSharper 5.1.1 released
@LasseVKarlsen Is it any good these days? I have had endless hassles with the last few releases?
8:04 AM
Yeah, I can't seem to make up my mind about ReSharper vs. CodeRush/ReFactor! Pro
I have ReSharper installed now, in some ways I like it better than the DevExpress tools
but it can be such a hog on the CPU and memory sometimes
Also it seems there's always something that isn't quite working with ReSharper
I tried getting the pattern search function to work, but it just doesn't want to
And Extract Method refactoring in 5.1, just don't dare trying to rename the variable and argument names it suggets
it will mangle your code
@LasseVKarlsen I had it loaded during a DevDays presentation last year and it killed my VS. I ended up not being able to do the presentation
So I'll try 5.1.1 and see if it has become any better on this things
Nice, not
When I do presentations live, I try to keep my active tools to a minimum
I have 1 or 2 of my own I use, a clipboard history tool, Visual Studio, and either ReSharper or CodeRush, whatever I fancy at the time
Yeah, it was a major mistake on my side, since it worked fine in the other 2 cities, except I upgraded inbetween :(
Which reminds me, I really need to fix that bug in my on-screen keyboard tool, seems it crashes hard on 32-bit OS :(
One of the pitfalls of only developing on a 64-bit OS
Guess I should build a 32-bit VMware machine
I have an XNA presentation I need to prepare for Tech-Ed Africa, I better get my machines sorted this weekend :(
8:26 AM
At my desk :) Hello all again :)
half hour lunch again today then :)
yeah :( At least we get to play Battlefield Vietnam at lunch :)
downstairs vs upstairs, It's a laugh. Just have to duck out early :(
Ai, iOS 4.1 is apparently available now
8:32 AM
does it fix the iphone 4's phobia of being touched?
Doubtful, but it is apparently going to fix the 3G performance issues
:) I'm an Android man, so it doesn't affect me one way or the other.
But it's good to know they are trying to sort things out.
iTunes however, is beyond hope
They should fire the people responsible for creating the Windows version of iTunes
from what I hear, the mac version is that much better :P
I'm happy with my iPhone 3G (except for the iOS 4.0x performance issues) and my iPad, but iTunes....
Yes, apparently it is
Not much of a consolation when I'm on Windows though
8:37 AM
Is there a big difference then between the Mac and Windows version of iTunes?
I don't know if there's any feature, UI or whatever differences
mainly performance I believe.
But performance-wise, the Windows-version could probably run smoother if created by batch-files
For instance, setting a photo on the Ping profile is apparently a difficult task, the dialog just doesn't close
I guess they tested it
I guess their test was "I guess we tested it"
Ok, Ping will wait, need to start the IOS 4.1 upgrade, it'll probably take the rest of the day so better start now
iOS 4.1 not available :( I guess the IT news site I read that on was mistaken
stupid weask.us site stealing stackoverflow questions... at least I know to copy to question title and search for it on SO :)
@LasseVKarlsen Apparently it will be available next week. I still need to load iTunes 10.
8:43 AM
Yeah, but apparently the GM (final) version was seeded to developers yesterday
And some sites have made it available, so though Apple or iTunes doesn't give you the link, it is apparently the final version
If you believe their word
Will follow up when I get home. It hasn't seeded to the developers at work yet.
9:11 AM
well it only took 24 hours to find out my streaming problems with WCF may be due to Casini not supporting it.
ah cool :)
IIS 5 won't cut it?
@Sekhat Except I can't find the download for it. Looks like it may still be in beta
@Sekhat You can try, but I won't put a lot of hope on it.
@Sekhat It's part of the WebMatrix download: microsoft.com/web/webmatrix/download
:D I'll give it a try if IIS 5 fails miserably
9:51 AM
uh, iTunes 10 has been released
10:26 AM
And iOS 4.1 is available, though not officially
Upgraded my iPhone 3G and it seems much better now
Gah, Telerik is bugging me about my expiring component subscription
changeset:   2069:0665193eae8c
tag:         tip
user:        balpha
date:        Thu Sep 02 12:31:44 2010 +0200
summary:     Bouncy is dead. Long live Bouncy.
@balpha Can we hold a funeral?
meh... most people would just come for the feast
10:43 AM
Sadly that's true.
How do you signal it now?
Have you F5ed?
Now I have
I have the (*) in the title
Is that it?
10:45 AM
Look again @lasse
@balpha I wanna see too :[
I'm sorry, I don't see anything special
No, @diago
Ah. Nice, much easier :) Good work there @balpha
What, tell me, tell me!
10:47 AM
@LasseVKarlsen Should I really put you out your misery :)
It has something to do with where you type.
Apparently you have to
mention my name again
yes, apparently it does
because, it's not like I've said that I'm colorblind and have problem with contrast
so easy to see
Ah. That makes sense. Let's see how many others pick up on it.
@balpha Maybe make it red?
10:49 AM
hopefully this won't be a problem on the SO chat
different color scheme there
Man, I hate bandwidth in SA. An hour to download iTunes 10 on a 4MB line. sigh
@Diago Is it so bad?
I should never have gone for uncapped.
@Ikke Well, with the shaping on the uncapped accounts it is. If you stick to capped you get full speed all the time. Here they shape by the hour.
@Diago That's ugly
Yeah. And frustrating since I am trying to cut costs.
10:52 AM
@Diago actually, I can make the number black
I had a darker background previously
that's why I made it white
@balpha I think your right. THe black could work, but the blue feels a bit too light? And red will grab attention. Possibly why it was noticed. It's an idea?
What you guys need is a real GUI designer
No offense guys, but to fall into the "not design for color blind people" trap over and over again is basically inexcusable these days
@LasseVKarlsen we have one
Also I know of very few people that do consider people that are color blind. Scarily.
So make him/her read up on things like that, 8% males are color-blind
10:55 AM
@LasseVKarlsen Please relax. So call me an idiot because in the very first iteration of a new feature I didn't think of everything.
Which means there's close to 10K people on StackOverflow that are colorblind
If there's 50/50 on male/female
No, sorry, I'm not calling you an idiot
I'm saying that you need to consider this
Yes, it's a bug. And just like any other bug, this happens.
Yep, and marc has it on his list
Is there a SE site for GUI thesedays? I think I want to post a question there, @Diago's comment about not many considering this makes me want to ask a few questions.
Mention my name again in a sec
11:05 AM
Thanks, I thought I found a site I could give you a link to that would make the site appear in some way as I see it, but it just made everything grayscale
and I'm not that bad off
Yeah, but I think those sites are a bit too aggressive
And of course I can't really verify how good they work :P
Hopefully you can store a link to that in your bug-list so that you can get a better view of what the problem is
For instance, try to differentiate text and links on the page you get through that site
can someone @ me please? I want in on the party :)
@LasseVKarlsen If you see any difference between before and after the filter, they fail
@Benjol sure, have some jumping
11:17 AM
ah, nicely nice
they fail for me, hopefully they should show a difference for you :)
+1 @balpha
@balpha We really need upvoting ability....
Nice, my avatar shows correctly to Protan and Deutan colour blinds
@Diago, what for?
11:23 AM
@balpha All that image rewriting must CRUSH their servers.
They should probably be selling that as an application.
@Benjol I actually honestly can't come up with a reason right after saying it. I suspect my mind is still asleep :(
Can you do image manipulation clientside?
@devinb they have the server sponsored by their hoster
@Diago aka starring? :)
@badp Yeah Yeah. I know. :P I should really stay offline today. My mind is at least a minute behind my fingers at the moment
11:26 AM
the starring/upvoting thing is in discussion
oh? MSO discussion or private discussion?
@LasseVKarlsen Ok, The new iTunes for Windows is most likely designed for the colorblind.
@badp jeff discussing with himself :)
@balpha I juts mean that the cost per user (per pageview) is really high on that app.
11:28 AM
iTunes isn't designed
It is congealed
@LasseVKarlsen OK. I was an iTunes fan. Really. Honestly. Until about 10 seconds ago. Both the Mac and Windows versions looks like it was designed by a 2 year old!!!!!!
@balpha, esc doesn't kill the numbers like it killed the bounce?
You can click on the number to highlight the message
Typing seems to clear it too
yes, it's cleared (all at once) by saying something or (one at a time) by clicking it
11:32 AM
That's it. I am going back to bed. When I wake up hopefully these updates I have just loaded will just be a very bad nightmare.
Does anyone know if there is some kind of caching mechanism in apache (by default)?
> As of Apache HTTP server version 2.2 mod_cache and mod_file_cache are no longer marked experimental and are considered suitable for production use.
@balpha But is it enabled by default?
I have some weird caching problems
Niceness, found a chrome extension that fixes things :D
Added underlines to links
+ I can override everything
Is the circle with the number an image, or something else?
no, that's just a css-styled div
11:39 AM
pushing rounded corners to the ultimate? :)
Try mentioning my name now
well, a div of width x with corner radius x/2 happens to be a circle :)
ah, well, you fixed it :) I can see the number clearly now
what is the name of the div?
11:40 AM
just for good measure
or rather, class or whatnot
my name again, and I'll stop asking :)
Yep, thanks!
I used a Chrome extension called Stylish: chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/…
11:42 AM
@balpha ..but... it's a circle, not a freehand circle!
And added this style override:

a { text-decoration: underline; }
#reply-count { background-color: #ff8080; }
@badp oh yeah, I forgot drawing-style: fouryearold;
wasn't it circle-style: awesome;?
Really gotta pick back up on CSS 3
2 hours later…
1:15 PM
Morning everyone
@Josh Morning
@Josh afternoon
How's everyone doing today? :-)
@josh grumble grumble.
1:24 PM
@Josh meh, meh and mehhhh
I hate maintaining crap code
Hey guys, c'mon, Friday's just around the corner! :-)
@spoulson I hear ya!
@spoulson I hate changing crap code. Especially when it doesn't want to contort to the shape it should of been originally.
My task for today is to rewrite my company's entire framework system in LOLcode xD
Oh cool new reply indicator
@Josh @Sekhat neato
1:25 PM
@spoulson Yeah much less playskool like than the other one. Looks like it could use a teeny bit of gussying-up
The number looks too low to my (non graphic design) eyes
@Sekhat This one app still uses Visual Studio 2005/.NET 2.0. The original coder has no clue that floating point type is not ideal for currency. Also has no idea what the Controller pattern is for.
@spoulson spouls the only way I dealt with it was by remembering that my job only existed because "real developers" don't know how to do their jobs.
@Josh Must be a small framework.
Some controllers are static classes, some aren't. Some "Helper" classes were created that should really be controllers. Some Web forms have more data manipulation in it than the controller it uses. UGH
@devinb I like that point of view
At least I got to introduce jQuery to the codebase. Felt nice deleting tons of crap javascript.
@spoulson same here, except I'm modifying a Web Service and the original coder had no idea what methods or classes were. The file is 3451 lines long...
@devinb No, actually it's fairly large. Includes an MVC website framework system, active record database system, CMS system, ECommerce system, and two specific industry eCommerce solutions. I have a LONG day ahead of me! ;-)
1:28 PM
I once got to delete jquery out of an app.
@devinb GAH! Why is that?
They were including it in every user control, and they used it only once.
@spoulson He wizened up and replaced it with prototype.js :-D
They simply had no reason to use jQuery.
But the dev was ABSOLUTELY certain that he had to include it.
"Where did all my jQuery go?" he asked
@devinb LOL
1:30 PM
"I deleted all the references, you weren't using them"
"But I was told that I HAD to use jQuery"
Another gripe: Horrible comments. He had the wisdom to comment everything, but the ineffectiveness to make them a complete waste:
He was under the impression that including jQuery just made his code... better.
`// for a RESPA loan, set the initial value of the Using Closing Agent flag`
`// based on the loan purpose.`
The method name explains it better than the comment
// increment i
1:32 PM
I am a huge fan of commenting but a major pet peeve of mine is comments like
// set i to zero:
I read a block of commented code that was under
"This block dynamically sizes the div"
Except that the commented out section was in fact a service call to generate meta data.
and had NOTHING to do with divs or sizing.
@devinb brilliant, out of sync comments FTW
@Sekhat I checked the source control (I was trying to debug this) and I discovered that the comments were not out of sync. He wrote the comment at the same time that he removed the code.
Much better comments are like:
// (Trac #123) I know this isn't really the best place in the code to do this solution
// but it would take many additional hours with no real benefit to move it to the
// right place. Complaints to: [email protected]
this is from the JS of this chat:
/// <summary>
/// makes noise
/// </summary>
/// <returns>noise</returns>
function makeNoise(level) {
    if (!player || level > getNoiseLevel())
1:34 PM
@Josh ouch, who reviews that code?
Does it make noise?
@devinb I do :-)
I laughed my ass off when I read that
@spoulson well, the documentary says so
it's still in the source somewhere
doesn't say what level is though! :O
1:35 PM
@Josh Did that person get a promotion, or a lateral move to the public sector?
How am I supposed to know how to use it!
@balpha So... what does this function *DO*
@devinb this!
@devinb They're a very valuable member of our team :-) If you don't have a sense of humor and enjoy what you do... why do it? As long as it's all harmless fun. If that were in a message displayed to the customer that would be a very different story! ;-)
1:39 PM
@Josh Yeah, also, when you know them its easier to know what they mean. We've had some situations with previous devs who were not really joking.
"/*Look, I know <reviewer> is going to say this is the wrong place, but F*** him. I'm sick of his nagging. */
And when he was asked about it by <reviewer> he said "I didn't think anyone would look at that function."
@devinb Very true. And also, as long as they follow the rules. The [email protected] bit was humorous, but he did reference the internal issue tracking system where his work and svn commits were thoroughly documented, so he followed policy, albeit with his own special touch ;-)
@devinb Yeah that's not nearly as cool :-)
@Josh He sounds like a guy I'd love to work with. Unfortunately, all of my code at the moment is client-owned. So I can't put in any jokes. Not to say I don't. Just that I'm not allowed ot.
@devinb I know how that goes. We're a SaaS company so we own all our code
We had a client lose our code at one point.
@devinb They misplaced the 3.5" floppy? ;-)
1:43 PM
They had switched source control systems in the mean-time and had not migrated all the projects. Or they had left our project somewhere in the "depracated" column.
For whatever reason, I (a maintenance coder in those days) was told to fix a bug in an application with no source code.
@devinb Easier said than done...
Speaking of the size of this framework I jokingly said I was going to rewrite -- I'm about to ask a question on SO about recommendations on rewriting part of it and when to do so; does anyone know an easy linux/os x way to geta metric which would be helpful in determining the size/scope of the project? I.e the number of lines of code across hundreds of files?
Our direct client (a good guy) ended up going to the basement and found the actual machine that one of our devs had worked on, dusted it off, booted up and took the local copy.
I know about the wc tool but how would I run that on a large number of files?
But it was out of date, so we ended up reflectoring the dlls and rebuilding the code.
@devinb whew!
1:46 PM
@Josh In windows I'd just batch script, then import to excel
hmm, code rush has just put red squiggles everywhere. I think it's got it's knickers in a twist
Oh, as always my favorite site comes to the rescue!
Q: How do you count your Lines of Code?

KrishnaWe want to invite a third party for reviewing our code and they want to know a ball park figure of number of lines of code we have in all our applications! Depending on the coding style of each of developer and depending on the language chosen there can be significant difference by measuring the...

A: 6 or 8 million.
In other news, what's up with "dropshadow"? Are there shadows that don't drop? "Raiseshadows"?
there are raised shadows, inner shadows, outer shadows..
A "drop"shadow is created due to the nature of the sun causing an object to "lose" it's "darkness". The darkness tends to spill out behind the object as if it were dropped.
hence "dropshadow"
... duh
1:51 PM
@devinb Your "duh" is my entire point :P
@badp my response didn't come across as satirically as I meant.
@balpha Can we get extended edit-msg windows for all users who are me?
@devinb Hardcoding a user, hmm? Let me quote a very smart person:
2 days ago, by devinb
The maintenance coder in me wants to slap you in the face.
Well obviously, it would be in a config.... but still, I have been shamed by you.
Well played yet again.
There's only one person I could never argue with :)
You could have checked for the primality of the user number
How's the first day of Not Programming Related going?

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