@fbueckert I would narrow my question to MSE and the system here establishes the Church of Scientology Exchange: You post a critical remark or an idea and get a slap because the members of the church do not like it. This again diminishes your rights to vote. Fine if you like it that way but it creates lock-in and prevents evolution. I would like to delete my question now but cannot. I would like to ask you to delete your answer, please.

If you cannot change a system form within, you should try from the outside. I love SE but the system of MSE is absurd and especially programmers should note.

@Servy @Oded I have repeatedly tried to flag this question for mod attention. I would like to delete it. It cannot be reworded as to make sense AND comply to SE rules. How other than broad should a question about a downvoting propensity be worded?

@Servy @Oded Forget my last message I would like to keep my question in exactly the present form which imo does make sense. This has been about learning and I believe I have. I will watch what happens and if I keep my bad vote here I will link to this question from other sites and use this as an example how things are handled here. After all there is a meta MSE. Cheers.

@ShadowWizard I have just deleted the removal process. I want to work from within and without. Let us play the game of Peer Pressure. :)

@LoneWolf cool! Was there really a button?

@ShadowWizard Yes, there was. :)

And I now have strategy (after all I deal with dynamical systems): I will see what happens here - I have changed my question and it seems quite legitimate to me (and probably to a lot of normal people). If I keep that negative score I will post on Quora and other competitor sites about Stackology Exchange and the Megachurch of Stackology Exchange and about the lock-in system at work here. See what happens - maybe one should make really, really sure that you guys stay among yourselves? :)

@LoneWolf haha, going over to the big guns? Stack Exchange is unique in many aspects, and yet - it thrives.

Anyway, you might find some links here really interesting:

e.g. "Encouraging User Behaviour With Achievements: An Empirical Study"

But keep in mind that MSE is very different, and does not in any way represent Stack Exchange Q&A sites.

For people from the outside it's indeed a weird, hostile, place.

I'm still mentally looking for a way to try and explain better.

Two barriers are present: language barrier (non native English, so missing lots of words) and being in the "inner circle" of MSE myself for so long, so it's hard to look on it with a different view, which is vital if I want to explain.

@Lone anyway... you plan to stick with this display name and (lack of) avatar? Or get back to your real identity?

@ShadowWizard What do you think - actually there are down- and upsites to anonymity?

@LoneWolf totally your choice, I don't think it will have any real effect either way. (i.e. how others look on you and react to your posts)

There are people who regularly change their name and avatar for fun (or security, not sure), e.g. user who was called "Normal Human" for years, then changed to "Sally" and now he's called "404", you can see him in the Tavern.

@ShadowWizard Since I am trying to get "Business" types into SE this anonymity and strange user names rather repell than attract imo. As I had posted before if you look at the site distribution it is skewed (by categories) but maybe simply because the crisp "fact" orientation quickly deteriorates in the social sciences?

@ShadowWizard What I really will try to change (by using Peer Pressure if necessary) is the system of MSE - it should work like other sites' mega:

As Derpy had said, there are good reasons to start out with your collective score rep here. It this were a program, I would say the logic of it is wrong causing this to be a bit religious-like, fostering conformity. I really like SE too much to see that. :)

@LoneWolf you can't change the system, as @Derpy also mentioned here it's just fighting windmills. The only way is to maybe somehow get hired by SE and become a Community Manager, then you do get real power from within.

@ShadowWizard Can't wait that long. :) -- It depends on what SE wants in the medium to long run. If you do want to reach out beyond STEM subjects I would think you need to change. On A51 (where new subjects have to start) anybody lik fbueckert can downvote a question proposal of a subject he is not following - that is like having the Mexicans vote on Trump :)

@ShadowWizard So to me MSE and A51 are crucial for the evolution of SE as a system; right now they seem slightly rigged. But ok, that is not yet a very well researched hypothesis, just a working hypothesis to check out more thoroughly (e.g. your list).

@ShadowWizard and @Derpy How does SE really make money at the moment?

@LoneWolf Careers and external advertisements.

I'd say 80% or even more from Careers.

The Careers development team of SE is huge, think it's already more than 10.

@ShadowWizard Thanks, that is somehow what I figured a bit (could not imagine ads doing it). And I would believe that Careers is pretty much SO (>90%)?

@LoneWolf more like 99.9%, yeah

@ShadowWizard Ok, 6 Sigma. :) That in my opinion might explain a bit... I would say that that might in the longer run hurt the balanced development of SE. And in Areas like Business, Economics, Marketing etc. you cannot simply give proof of expertise by code snippets as easily as it is in programming and tech-stuff. That money machine will not work in that area as it does for STEM stuff.

@ShadowWizard BTW is my question as it is now ok in your opinion?

I think that the focal point in all of this is that others sites are supposed to be about objective content. As such, it should be possible to claim that a post is either good or bad, and that makes "censoring/removal" of wrong content desirable in a way.

The problem is when the posts starts to be no longer about objective procedures to do something but about opinions.

At that point, you will have to accept that the current system de-facto is giving visibility to opinions that conforms to the shared view. Smaller voices will spoken over and in time disappear.

Wrong or bad as this can be, the system is built that way.

@Derpy Again, that is OK - but I just want to spread the word about how it is and use the power of language and the power of social networks, simple as that. I will not try to become a good sheep, after all I was named wolf. :)

Also, about Area51, I don't know how it works, but from what you said, yes - it seem to be an anomaly. Basically, it lives on the assumption that begin capable to evaluate a proposal make you skilled at evaluate everything. Something that the mains site don't have even when it would be most logical to do so (if I can use spam flagging somewhere, give me that power everywhere just for a simple example).

@LoneWolf Have you tried with some Ramas arts?

@Derpy No...explain, please.

K, was just a joke. Have now realized the names where changed across the globe, so it would make sense only in some EU countries.

Never read the actual books, I was taking my infos from a cover someone showed me in the past.

Now here we go: Reviews of SE - I like what Jason Sachs has written there. Soup Nazis love it. :)

@LoneWolf It's also one of those things: people love to hate SE.

Also, really? Comparing SE to Scientology, of all things?

I'm going to just go with this: You don't understand SE, as you've made abundantly clear. Until you do...there's nothing here worth discussing with you.

> Only a Sith deals in absolutes

@Derpy +1. :))

@fbueckert You are setting up a tautological system (devoid of informational content): People love to hate SE -> people hating SE must be removed -> if you criticize SE then you obviously must hate SE -> you must be removed because you hate SE... It now looks to me that the behvior I observed indeed is a distortion or bias.

Actually, it was directed at both sides. I would want to avoid judgments, but if you start to link to "SE is Nazi" post from one side, and to use the "You fail at understanding why you are wrong so goodbye" rhetoric on the other ... I think you won't really discuss about nothing.

@Derpy I am put on hold, I am downvoted and thus cannot downvote myself, I am simply turning to meta MSE which is other sites which should be legal. Read the post by Jason Sachs and he is right on and if you do indeed prohibit "Satire" then indeed nothing to discuss anymore. :)

I am just saying that if you indeed switch to satire, then probably the few that could have listened will turn their back to the discussion too.

Obviously, one can also ask if others are hearing or listening

@Derpy This site is - I have been told - not a site for discussion. It is all about Q&A and quality and facts (I heard that a lot). Well, Jason Sachs very nicely wrapped it up in my opinion. I have linked to this question on Quora and am discussing it here. I should not be punished for making use of amplification or for voicing my concern on multiple channels maybe?

And just for the transcript: I love SE and that is why I criticize what I do not like about it. Critique helps us to become better, said Karl Popper and I agree. The way I have been treated here for what I believe has been a legitimate question should stand as a beacon simply for how things are done here.

and you probably won't, unless you actually post something that staff will find offensive/rude. But know that as soon as one starts using words like "Nazi", any discussion will probably be regarded as rants, even if there is an actual content.

About the problems, I have already said what I think we have at hand. As far as I am concerned, I do see problems here. But, as I said, it is not up to me to decide if we have to do something or if they even exist.

@LoneWolf I'm... not sure, sorry. Need to check it with fresh mind and with more time in my hands, usually such radical change of questions isn't a good thing, but there are exceptions.

@Derpy You are of course free to flag it. Moderator attention seems to be a bottleneck these days anyway. But by deleting a link to an article that uses an expression from Seinfeld I would say you are simply giving a case in point example for how things really are?

@fbueckert ... come on, don't beat your head against a wall. You like to work hard, play hard and I believe I adapted to that a bit. It is called sportsmanship. :)