Each year they make a lot: stackexchange.com/leagues/1/year/stackoverflow/2021-01-01/… - but one is way ahead of the other, even my "Reach" is double theirs (and I have 1K), while the other's reach is over double mine. - I don't hang out there enough to know who is correct, I suspect that there's a fair bit of hammering by various people - They should face off against Linoff, rene and Glo via SEDE.

So it heats up: SEDE Queries by anonymous - "stuff unhammered by akrun" (322 rows), one is a greater offender than the other but neither is the greatest offender:

@JourneymanGeek and that is why I left a comment under the answer by the mod. Wearing a hard-hat isn't going to help there. We need a cute doggy that bites ....

→ 9 messages moved to Chimney

@rene The second action item they added in response to your comment mentions flagging obviously abusive uses of the hammer. Is reopen hammering your own question considered abusive?

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I've no idea. After the edit it is only slightly better but I don't have the urge to get dragged into that drama at all. The comment I left had several versions and took me 20 minutes to post before I was confident it wouldn't get me suspended on the spot. So I leave it at that and wait for the next meta post to appear.

My two "try SEDE" comments have gained a couple of upvotes in the past three hours, and no followup comments; it does show that those two are near top of the list for hammer reversals,but not actually at the top. --- A custom SEDE query, possibly an optimized version of Glo's (that won't timeout, and is sortable), should solve both the exact question asked: "reopen to answer, close others" and who's reversed (thus voted, by leaving it the most).

My helpful flags are evil

@Rob that error percentage above those lines is astonishing. Almost 25%

Here are some MSE stats, one particular moderator isn't doing a real good job ;)

@Luuklag Sort that second link on the "percent error" column and those two drop off the map. Someone has a forty percent rejection, and others aren't too far behind, in all except one case the ReClosed numbers are very low:

@Rob Yeah I already looked at that too. But there is some sampling bias there, as some people have >1k dupe hammered questions, while others have <50. So there is some learning curve discrepancy in those data

@Luuklag I saw that query, almost all those people are moderators; not sure that the person who is listed at 100% is getting a fair shake with a single use of the Hammer being reopened; probably need a bigger sample size. --- In any event the question is about "reopening to answer, and dupe hammering other's answered questions; even opening answering and reclosing".

yeah that is some shady buisness.

RANT!

End rant.

We need a new query to examine exactly that, which none of my linked examples do; mine only show overall wrong,not specific clear abuse.

^^ At least they didn't send you to shouldiblamecaching.com

@Tinkeringbell lol

plot twist - there's No IE anywhere to be found on work PCs

@JourneymanGeek I have IE, Chrome and Edge. Both Chrome and Edge give me the 'SecurityError: Blocked a frame with origin "http://www.<domain>.com" from accessing a cross-origin frame.' as a popup when I load the page. IE just gives 'Acces denied' (I'm assuming for the same reason XD)

I put screenshots of all of that in the support ticket. Even put in a screenshot of the Chrome developer console and the error it is throwing whenever I try to click an element that is blocked XD

I guess this means I'm just going to be absent on the 13th without having made a proper request.

lol

and your support person dosen't realise they're over their head and need to escalate it to someone with a clue

And I'm going to mail my manager that I need to be paid double this month, for doing support's work as well.

lol

@JourneymanGeek I know support has to just follow a script... encountered it before, you get to call to the philippines, get someone that bare speaks English (if you give your employee number as onehundredtwentythree fourhundredfiftysix they don't understand, they need it one number at a time)... then they take you through all the steps you've already tried (in this case it was resetting my 2FA token), then they gruntingly admit that you'll be called back later....

@Tinkeringbell Wierdly, my company's support person was pretty good, though sick of his existance...

Then in the afternoon you get a call from someone with a very pleasant proper British accent, who kindly asks 'what's the date/time on your phone'... and then you figure out that it's been turned off for a month or more and hasn't automatically updated the time/date and that's why the token isn't working.

I'm honestly baffled. That should've been the first check question they asked me when I called that morning XD

@JourneymanGeek As far as I know, ours really sucks.

I had another company (who I am a client of) take one look at my problem, go "I have no idea how to deal with it" throw it up to l2 support, who then proceeds to go "I know what's wrong but I'll send you up to l3" then "fixed! Have a nice day!"

@Tinkeringbell I think I had issues getting a newly reimaged PC up on the AD

support guy walked me through a bunch of stuff then...

"This sounds stupid but run <some script> a few times, it'll eventually work.... trust me"

in the "It works, I have no idea why it works, and people keep asking me why" tone of voice

10 minutes to end of the work day, yay

well I'm glad we have a Dutch IT provider

@JourneymanGeek Another story: The iPhone work makes me use is having battery life problems. So I ask work if they can repair my otherwise perfectly fine phone... 'here's the link to ordering a new phone'... That's not what I was asking.

@Tinkeringbell ah, that I get

replacing it is cheaper than repairing it

And quicker

@Luuklag For some definition of quicker, I guess.

Having a new iPhone forced onto me would mean I have to get that new one up and running with apps and stuff, and that's slow stupid work.

Dropping off the current phone and picking it up once it's repaired... much faster for me.

@Tinkeringbell Usually when I get a new (android) phone I just mirror over everything on my old phone

takes maybe an hour or 2 to run, but doesn't require much from me

Favorite issue when I did tech support: Hear problem, speak politely and kindly for a minute, explain carefully that we start at one end of the computer and work to the other, ask to check that it is plugged in - err, nope.

@Luuklag I've never done that, and to be honest I'm not invested enough in that work iPhone to learn how to do that either.

@Rob Heh. Well some things are just stupid little things like that....

@Tinkeringbell there probably is a guide somewhere on SE ;)

@Luuklag Yeah, took me 30 seconds on my new phone; one of the first questions it asked me upon starting is if I wanted to do that.

@Rob yeah same here

Most of that time was digging through the box for the OTG dongle that was included. For a bonus I was able to plug in my USB DVD player into the plug and bit-copy my music collection.

@Rob my issue reports generally include everything I have tried so far 😁

That includes checking the power where relevant

→ 6 messages moved to Chimney

⛈

🏭

@KevinB Sunny with a few clouds here :D

Well Aaron's update to his topbar post isn't doing him any good either

I think his reputation on the Meta's in propperly in shambles now

@Luuklag There's always gotta be one black sheep that has to tell everyone about the unpopular changes ;)

True, but the way in which you do that makes a huge difference. He ruined it for himself here

How would you have done it then? :P

For starters not trying to be funny about it, with a nice waving hand picture...

He should have known it was an unpopular decision to make, so trying to be funny about it wasn't the right strategy here

I recall one of the CMs saying that who announces what is determined by what / where they are working on; some get work (and thus announcements) that is well received (upvoted) and others get a mix, but a few get a series of unpopular announcements (and thus are nailed).

@Rob Yeah I know, but the way he wrote this post didn't do him any good either

@Luuklag "Should have known" is one of those very subjective things...

Prefer to think of it as 'could have known', and in this case I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

@Luuklag I don't see any attempt at humor there.

@MetaAndrewT. I think he's grumbling about the very first revision.

@Tinkeringbell well everything that takes away mostly is cause for a meat uproar of some sort. Loss aversion and all

Also being aware of the recent meta sentiment of being disgruntled about posts stating: We have done X, instead of posts asking feedback on doing X. It wasn't too unexpected that the response to this post would be negative.

@Tinkeringbell that he didn't know is bad :/

@Luuklag meat uproar? 😁

@Luuklag That's more a problem of meta though... and one that I'm not fond of, as it drowns out actual problems.

@Luuklag surprisingly, I missed and have never seen that revision(s).

@JourneymanGeek yeah its all about the stake(s)

More seriously - it's a mix of the reasoning, and the fewish folks using the option being users who are long time dedicated users

@JourneymanGeek yeah, cause they are the only ones that know of the feature, due to its great advertising ;)

When you are saying that according to SEDE there are "only" 13k people that have it turned on, it was only this much effort to check who those 13k were....

That's... honestly not how websites work XD

If a feature is used by very few people, and especially if those people are 'old' users, at some point it will be gotten rid of. That's the internet....

@Tinkeringbell you would need to query for who has it turned on, it wouldn't be too much of a deal to also query their stats

See e.g. any feature that allows you to use an 'old' interface: After a while, it will be gone and you'll be forced to use the new one.

There have been several breaking changes recently - such as some of the ones to the review queues, and the mod tools - and this is another non-previously announced change that removes existing functionality, changing users' usage of the site. That's going to get people annoyed, and give the circumstances, even more annoyed.

There's a difference between something someone personally finds annoying, and something that's actually a breaking change though.

What is an annoyance to you, may very well be a breaking change to someone else

@KevinB Well, so far I have not seen any reports of anything actually breaking on the top bar announcement. All I see is annoyance ("I'm annoyed the top bar takes up screen space now, boo!" and "I'm annoyed it wasn't asked first, boo!"). There's not one answer there saying "This breaks the site for me, and I can't use it anymore".

This break the site for me, i can't use it anymore (without the userscript to fix it)

Then go answer, and add screenshots/proof of how unusable the site is for you now.

Because right now, there really is nothing there yet.

It's emotional

No screenshots can show the anxiety/grief this causes me

That's called annoyance, not something broken.

His heart is broken :(

Duct tape it is then, but that really isn't something SE is responsible for fixing.

@Tinkeringbell It's not a breaking change, just an annoyance. But when it comes on the heels of several breaking changes, and has issues that have been brought up repeatedly - not being announced beforehand - people are going to react perhaps more strongly than they would otherwise.

That was my point.

Need i direct you to the welcoming wagon?

@GWarner actually I was in vacation with family ;)

@KevinB Ah yes, you don't feel welcome now... I'll get a doormat for you to walk over instead. You can bother it with all your mud and dirt instead of others.

@M.A.R. correct!

@Tinkeringbell that's a rug, not wagon

you can sweep things underneath it

eh, no

i'm not claiming to not feel welcome

;)

@Mithical Eh, maybe. People should get a grip then, because their behavior is certainly not going to make things better, instead it's probably going to end up driving things into another cycle of 'why bother with meta'.

I'd rather drive it into that cycle than sit down and shut up

Well have fun then... we all know how well that worked out last time.

Again: You have to realize you can't be consulted for every change.

@Tinkeringbell I doubt that'd get much traction internally at this point. They've seen how that ends up.

@Tinkeringbell reddit has their entire old interface as an option....

And if it doesn't actually break something, perhaps the outrage is better directed towards those unannounced things that do break things.

@Tinkeringbell consulted? No. Getting some warning? Yes.

And I am sure there's lots of entire sites with under 13k users

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Meh. "We're going to turn this off in 10 minutes and it's non-negotiable" isn't going to make the difference.

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 had a good time?

@Tinkeringbell that's not much different from 'we are going to move all our communication to the blog and that's not negotiable'

@Tinkeringbell whilst "we're turning X off oct 14th" does make much more sense

Deciding not to use meta for anything other than generating survey questions or finding bugs with already released "features" isn't any better than shutting down meta

@Tinkeringbell one week? Two days? Not hard to do. Might still be annoying to many, but lots better than "We removed this feature because it's useless and only 1274 people used it".

I mean

i understand you have more to lose

@Luuklag Why? It is still non-negotiable...

@Tinkeringbell because people get the time to anticipate

@Luuklag yes and no, when you're with kids, it's never really meant for the parents to enjoy. lol

@KevinB Why? There's not much more to lose, that's exactly what makes meta great... that and the winter-bash ones I guess, but we could probably work around that on site-specific level :P

Have a chance to bring arguments forth that might not be considered yet, that could overturn the decision even if its said to be final

@Luuklag And complain about the same things, except now they can also complain "It's definitely going to be annoying" without having seen it for themselves.

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 haha yeah that is true. Went to visit some cool places?

@Tinkeringbell but it's showing they care, in a way.

@Tinkeringbell fundamentally "We don't think its useful, we didn't ask the 13k users who use it whether its useful, and we unilaterally decided that the end users don't really need this at all"

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 more like common decency

@Luuklag nah, COVID is on the rise, and wife is pretty strict. Plus, our "green passport" expired two days ago. But kids has fun in the hotel, lots of swimming pool time, good tons junk food.

@JourneymanGeek more like: We find it an annoyance, and we don't care about the 13k users who use it, so were deleting this.

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 untill you get your third shot?

@JourneymanGeek That's basically the entire internet though, and even beyond that. It's how we make decisions in our company as well: This feature is causing bugs, extra maintenance, the code base is old and nasty and very few people actually use it.... and we have something new that they should be using anyways, so we're getting rid of it now.

@Tinkeringbell See counterexamples

@Luuklag +100

We're not asking for a whole old UI to be kept

@Luuklag Let's be a little bit more fair. They elected not to care about how they would feel about that setting going away, not necessarily about the users themselves.

@Spevacus the line there is thin, and as blurred as rene's userpic

@Luuklag yup exactly. Hopefully soon. It's now just matter of waiting list.

@Spevacus well I don't know in all honesty. They didn't shown much caring lately.

Care can come in unexpected shapes. It's not always hugs and kisses XD That makes for horribly behaved and spoiled kids.

@Luuklag actually - there's a bunch of good work, lots of effort

then someone loading a gun and calmly emptying the magazine right into their foot

or someone else foot

or my non sticky top bar.

BTW, what's going on? What feature they removed now? @Luuk

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 the top bar, I think

@Ollie oh the option to choose if it's sticky or not? That's old news....

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 People are still kinda unhappy over it. Well It annoys me anyway!

@JourneymanGeek it annoys me even though I'm not one of those who disabled stickiness, just because it shows ignorance and not caring about the community.

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 I did, and its in a sense a quality of life thing

@JourneymanGeek well for this, guess userscripts can be used to reverse the wheel, locally.

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 my main pain point is on my phone

Annoying, but you'll still be able to use the site like before.

@JourneymanGeek no userscripts on phone?

Nope

and its pretty annoying on smaller screens too... On my work supplied 14 inch laptop and the client issued tables and chairs, the bar is exactly at eye level ._.

@JourneymanGeek sure?

Answer claims you can use, with Firefox

I use chrome

and I don't really want to use another browser

@JourneymanGeek but why not using Firefox if it means better experience?

I don't use Firefox because it was really bad when I tried it, but who knows maybe they got better.

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Well....

who knows

@JourneymanGeek @M.A.R knows

but I shouldn't have to switch to another browser to work around a feature that got removed, and no other reason

and I minimise userscript use cause it makes it trickier to verify bugs for status-review tagging...

@JourneymanGeek true. It's like being forced to switch brand of cars because the company removed some key feature of the car.

hm

> Fixed headers are an established pattern across the web and apps. You’ll find fixed headers on Reddit, Quora, Nextdoor, CNN, Vice, Craigslist, LinkedIn, Gmail, Jira, Facebook, Pinterest, Walmart, PayPal, TikTok, and YouTube

Some of those have a separate mobile view with no fixed headers or a dedicated app

gmail is a SPA

the rest i haven't visited in a desktop web browser recently

but frankly, "everyone else does it" is the same argument in support of using modal newsletter popups

are we gonna soon have a "Check out SO for Teams!" modal, because everyone else does it?

@Feeds Long live the onebox!

it's just lazy

@Feeds The full onebox for the full data set for the 2021 Developer Survey now available!

I'm gonna signal-boost this real quick because I'd like to be finished with it:

If you have any changes you would make to the currently proposed changes (see @Sonic 's answer) then please apply/suggest them. Otherwise, I'd like to start moving forward with updating the close reason to use that verbiage.

Thanks @KevinB

@Spevacus I kinda am running on fumes again but I'll throw it into the mod room for consideration

Thank ya

I would ask you to gimme a poke in 6-8 but my current work schedule is really bad

So gimme a poke in a week if nothing happens

Don't worry about it, it's not pressing by any means, I'd just like to move on to the other close reasons at some point :)

But I will, thanks /o/

hello

\o

@magi !!!

@Feeds aww, I couldn't make it "2021 Onebox Survey" ...

@Spevacus I'm fairly certain that there was a discussion here (in The Tavern) regarding this, that it can involve multiple sites (EG: SO and the half dozen languages = ask on main SO meta, or two closely related sites where the issue is only going to affect a few sites and not half a dozen, or migration amoungst a few sites and not elsewhere, etc.) and shouldn't be brought to Meta.SE first; possibly ever.

So this open license is misleading and unhelpful:

> "The simplest way to fix this is to change references to "entire network" to "multiple sites", which I've done.".

The conversation was a couple of months ago,you said you were looking into it; I can't search for it ATM.

@Rob To be clear, all we're changing is Meta SE's "Applicable to one specific site" close reason. This guidance doesn't change any other site's guidance. This is just for Meta SE.

@Spevacus That is clear, I read the post.

Hm. Yeah, I'm just re-reading what you said.

@Rob Hm. Yes, now I see that the wording could, potentially, be troublesome, but I also feel that the situations in which there are holes in this guidance specifically are very slim. In addition, the close reason will link to the on-topic help center entry, as well as a meta post that more fully explains why we close as site-specific under certain circumstances.

But there have also been discussions not long ago that the on-topic entry in Meta SE (specifically)'s help center isn't really... The best, and it could use some expansion.

IMHO, "one specific site" can be wrongly interpreted, since last time I remember, we also had some questions talking about 2+ sites' specific policy. I think the core of the issue is more about the specific policy that MSE community can't handle, not the number of sites.

(I'm lazy to comment though)

how dare

I remember commenting on that problematic question (that should have already been closed, and possibly roomba'd) relating to multiple sites (either related to language sites, religion sites, or political sites), and suggesting the OP to ask on both their meta sites if their communities agree or not, since MSE can't help.

Examples: 1. Furigana is used on two sites (do you and most people here at MSE know what it is?) and is probably best discussed at JL.M.SE, 2. The "mhchem extension" is used on a few sites but probably best discussed on Chem.Meta.SE, 3. the examples in my prior comment, and others not enumerated.

@Rob 1. Japanese.SE (obviously) and Anime.SE? :p

@JNat Cross-site spammer: stackexchange.com/users/22608245/azclear

Yes, I didn't want to center you out in that comment, that it didn't apply to you; who appeared mid-conversation.

Suggestion:

> This question was closed because it is about an issue that pertains only to one specific site on the Stack Exchange network or a limited audience. It is not currently accepting answers.

Now, for the usage description, which I'll let someone else suggest.

@Ollie hmm, should it be tagged [dark-mode] if it's broken in both light and dark mode? 🤔

it would be nice if the g+m keybind sent you to a page on the parent/child meta based on what page you're on

for example, pressing g + m while on a user profile on a site should take you to that user's meta profile for that site

rather than the homepage

@Rob That's not what the close reason is for. It's very specifically about questions that are only about one network site. In the answer, I link a post from Shog9 that explicitly states that your added text is not what the close reason is for.

While such questions may still be closeable, they're not to be closed with this reason, but maybe under other reasons (e.g. with a custom comment).

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ wouldn't be the first time a close reason changed scope

@RyanM Prob not. I removed the tag.

Just a quick question for any moderators here: when a user is destroyed, all of their posts and comments are deleted, including those on posts they made. Is there a reason to explicitly delete their comments on posts they made and are also being removed as part of the action, so they can't be viewed by 10k+ users who can see the post body?

This behavior is causing a bug with comment counts. My third solution proposes not deleting comments on posts that are anyway going to be deleted as part of the destruction, since they won't be visible to the general public anyhow. But is there a reason for not doing that (i.e. a reason why such comments should stay hidden from 10k+ users)?

i mean... purely from a data standpoint, it's much easier to say "delete all comments by x" than "delete all comments by x that aren't on a post that is also being deleted by this action"

Also, does it really matter? As far as bugs go, "the number of comments shown is different to what is reported, but only on deleted posts made by destroyed users" doesn't exactly seem high priority

@Dudecoinheringaahing There may be other reasons why the comment count fails to update, aside from user destroyals. And if one of those occurs on a deleted post, it will also have a permanently incorrect comment count. My answer simply states that that's the most common cause.

The point is, would a moderator object to fix 3 because of privacy/confidentiality reasons?

@KevinB I remember a bug report, something about main over the per-site-meta in links; perhaps the key bound to the wrong code - if it used the avatar link from a post it would go to the correct place.

not sure i understand

with a circuitboard

or, better yet, a yellow paper pad + pencil

@rene Obviously should be migrated to Board & Card Games /s

Obligatory Magic: The Gathering is Turing Complete link

some of my earliest coding was done with pencil on a legal pad

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog when we destroy a user, it is full scorched earth. it is an action of "we don't want a single thing this person made on our site, all or almost all of their activity is unwelcome and none of it is all that worth keeping and it needs to go." if we're doing that, why wouldn't we also want to destroy the comments on their own posts? surely odds are good that, being the only place someone relatively new can really comment, that would be most of the places we'd want to destroy comments?

the solution isn't "stop deleting those comments" it's just "fix the bug so that when they're deleted the display is still correct"

moderators can still delete comments off of deleted posts, so the solution is still seemingly "make the job run properly"

@doppelgreener So you'd favor also removing destroyed users' posts from the view of 10k+ users?

I've always thought of destroying users as removing all of their content from general public view at once. There's no difference between deleting comments on own posts and not doing so, since the content is still removed from public view either way.

Comments on deleted posts can still be flagged, IIRC

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog i haven't commented on that

i see no harm in removing them entirely

you asked why, as part of destroying the user, we'd delete all the comments they made on their posts. i'm answering why.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Comments aren't supposed to stick around forever. I don't see anything wrong with removing comments, especially by destroyed users

i am also saying: don't stop doing one thing that's basically fine because of some minor bug elsewhere, just fix the minor bug elsewhere

That's a perfectly fine mentality to hold, and I'd like it implemented so that other potential reasons why inconsistent comment counts appear are addressed too. It's fix 1 in my answer. But in my description for fix 3, I mention another reason for implementing it in addition to working around the bug.

also there's no concept of hiding offensive comments behind a click like there is for spam/rude posts

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the intent of "destroying" a user (rather than just deleting them) is to remove all of their content, full stop? Their posts are still viewable by 10k+ users because, well, all deleted posts are viewable by 10k+ users, but the overall aim is just to remove their content.

@RyanM Destroying accounts doesn't on its own cause a spam mask, only if someone else flagged it as spam/rude before the destroyal

@Dudecoinheringaahing yes

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog In practice, there's generally at least one red flag on the posts, though

our system doesn't have a super-delete and i'm not sure i'd want to use it even in the case of destroyed users—having a paper trail to reference is important

(moderators have the normal paper trail on comments, users have the normal paper trail on posts)

The fact that they're viewable by 10k+ users is a result of the content being deleted, not an intended feature. I'd imagine that if SE had a more permanent deletion style, then destroyed users' posts wouldn't be visibile

Delete vs. Destroy: meta.stackexchange.com/q/88994/282094 meta.stackexchange.com/a/276378/282094 meta.stackoverflow.com/a/306686/3648282