Tavern on the Meta

12:04 AM

@JourneymanGeek Do you think we should start with the "concerns one specific site" reason? I can try and at least get a question started that's focused purely around updating all of the fields that are now available to close reasons, however I feel as though the help center changes, specifically, might need to be a second question.

Changing all the fancy stuff for the close reason is rather localized to that close reason, and it links to the help center to support it (which it currently doesn't do a good job of, as you said).

Journeyman Geek

@Spevacus Its fine, getting things started is the hard part

Spevacus

Sure thang. I'll write something up tomorrow, try and get the ball rolling on modernizing all of them.

Just starting with 1 for now. Someone else can make another question if they'd like to address another close reason.

Journeyman Geek

12:30 AM

They get changed at one shot, but knowing the folks here, getting it started is good enough

someone will pick up

Journeyman Geek

12:45 AM

copilot.github.com uhm... so... basically automated googling SO? 0_0

Rob

1:48 AM

MSE is in RO mode.

user728672

Cool.

Journeyman Geek

2:03 AM

Yeah, there's a maintance window that started uh...

1 hour ago? :D

10 Rep

MSO is also in RO mode. The only two sites currently read only.

Journeyman Geek

If you can see this comment, we're now back in read/write. The site will probably be much faster now :) — Mike Frank 44 secs ago

Rob

Seems to be back.

Rob

2:35 AM

@JourneymanGeek A key point in the discussion above is that while updating MSE will update many sites any site that has been customized retains its old, probably incorrect, information; and needs to be fixed on a site-by-site basis,there could be over a dozen (so the question is neither site specific, limited to a few sites, nor fixed - though the question might need a heavy handed edit).

Journeyman Geek

@Rob we could get that moving on MSE tho

and we'll likely get priority

I just haven't personally had the time or energy to do it

Rob

Yes, it's a CM specific permission (editing) but anyone can ask (if they can get a red tag): "... once you're happy with the result, get a mod to status-review the post so that a CM can review the text and edit the existing close reasons.".

anyone != everyone, frequently

Journeyman Geek

sometimes anyone is also != anyone :D

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

5:55 AM

@RocketNikita SLAP has different meaning here. We're in different dimension.

rene

6:06 AM

→ 9 messages moved to Chimney

Meta Andrew T.

6:22 AM

@JourneymanGeek //Create an AI to rule the world

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

!!/terminate @Rocket

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 No such command 'terminate'.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

:(

@JNat cross site spammer for your ever caring treatment. :)

Mod edited spam out, common and big mistake.

Spam should be deleted.

Daily trivia, difficulty level very hard. What's going to happen to the ship below?

Well, I reported it lol.

@Luuklag you're lurker too now? Come out to the light! :D

Tinkeringbell

6:59 AM

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 It's probably going to explode/sink.... looks like a wargame to me :P

Luuklag

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Are there any cookies?

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

@Tinkeringbell you're good! 10 points!

It's going to be hit by this missile:

@Luuklag ran out of them :(

!!/cookies Luuk

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 No such command 'cookies'.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

:(

Luuklag

:'(

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

7:19 AM

Is that a tear?!

handing over tissue paper to @Luuk

No worry it's clean. ;)

Meta Andrew T.

:!(

Luuklag

@MetaAndrewT. is that a pinokkio?

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Looks more like a snotty nose to me.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

@Luuklag not long enough

@Tinkeringbell ohh. Still needs tissue paper then. ;)

:‫‬‭‮‪‫‬‭‮҉‫‬‭‮‪‫‬‭‮҉‫‬‭‮‪‫‬‭‮҉‫‬‭‮‪‫‬‭‮҉‫‬‭‮‪‫‬‭‮҉‫‬‭‮‪‫‬‭‮҉(

oh my

going back to ZALGO school

Luuklag

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 oh no, lord save us!

L͊ͦ́ͣ͐ͤ͋ͩ̉͒̒̓̾o͂͂̉̓ͦͩ̍̾͂͌̑͌̓͂̋ͮr̅ͥ̈ͥ̂̎ͨ̄͆̄̒̆͋͑͊ͤͬ̚̚d̽͂̾̃̃ͯ̿͂̓̿̒͛ ̊ͮ̂̈̔́̓̊̆̊͐̎̇̒̉ͩͯͤs̾ͬ͆̒̅ȃ̓̐̉̎͒̀v̏ͨ̈́ͧͭe̎̔ͬ̄ͣ̓̽͗̈ͮ̚ ̆̀ͣͯ͌̄ũ̈́ͥͯͧ̇̈͌̋́͒s̾ͯ͑͐̓̐͛̒̅̔̓ͫ͊̍̆̿̈́̈

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

7:34 AM

Show off :D

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

7:47 AM

@M.A.R. I really like your meta post, meta.stackexchange.com/questions/333476/…. It would be nice if you split off the five sections into separate answers, so that it's easier to link to specific sections. (Do you mind if I post the CW answers myself?)

Rob

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 It appears to have a Phalanx CIWS on deck, it should be OK:

Watch this crazy Video of U.S. 20mm Phalanx CIWS Close-in Weapon System In Action "massive fire"

►

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

@Rob nah, our new Missile can't be beaten. It's the doom of any ship.

Luuklag

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 those pics were Israeli propaganda?

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

@Luuklag more like advertisement

Spam alert! self flagging own messages

Well funny enough, Israel won't be using this missile.

It's meant for sale to other countries.

Luuklag

@Rob I once saw a clip of something like this, where they did some testing or smth, but then forgot to switch it off. And then along came a fishingboat....

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

7:58 AM

heh, even that site has the cookie consent banner, in the footer. lol

Rob

8:17 AM

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 It's new, and impressive, but too new to have had to stand up to anything. Apparently they planned for India to be a customer and for it to be made there: defenceaviationpost.com/2021/06/… but they are happy with their more capable ancient BrahMos: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrahMos

It can't catch the US's mach 6 missile, nothing goes that fast:

X-51 Test Flight

►

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

hmm

Fair, we'll have to wait until it's tested in the reality test.

Rob

Also, their video of it is an animation; I don't doubt that it works well, just that it's not real footage.

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Oops, nevermind. I admit my mistake. The X-15 from 60 years ago travels faster: youtube.com/watch?v=7zR26e504uI&t=508s en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Luuklag

8:48 AM

@SmokeDetector k

Hmmm I wonder how long it will take the featured cache to reflect the title edit I did...

Journeyman Geek

@Rob there's quite a few countries that buy Israeli weapons

That sounds like the kinda thing we might find useful

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 ^

Luuklag

9:06 AM

@Rob Those are some expensive weapons, 2.75M for a BrahMos, wow...

How much would such an israeli thing cost?

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

@Rob oh, that's nice...

@Luuklag not sure Israel is cheaper, lol

Journeyman Geek

@Luuklag I don't think anyone makes anything comparable

Luuklag

@JourneymanGeek I don't know, but 2.75M for just one piece of munition is quite expensive don't you think.

I wonder what parts cost of that would actually be. That must be significantly less.

Journeyman Geek

@Luuklag it is designed to take out ships

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

Battle airplanes like F15 costs much more, think each unit is 100M dollars.

Journeyman Geek

9:18 AM

And buildings I guess

Luuklag

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 but are not throw-away ;)

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

@JourneymanGeek Sea Breaker can destroy anything, yeah. But its main purpose is still ships.

@Luuklag yeah, that's correct. ;)

Wolf

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 F10 thunder bolt

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

9:36 AM

Luuklag

Strap a claymore or smth on top xD

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

lol why

My house if full with race cars, kids getting one for almost every birthday, using it once or twice and that's about it.

Luuklag

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 home made advanced weapons system xD

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Not at all! When I was self-answering, I had no other choice but to try to fit everything in one answer, and I'm sure more people would want to read it if it's in more and smaller chunks

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

10:08 AM

@Luuklag ohh nice!

Luuklag

11:32 AM

@SmokeDetector k

Luuklag

11:52 AM

@Tinkeringbell, @JourneymanGeek any of you want to status-review this Q from Glorfindel which I found the cause for?: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/337259/…

Journeyman Geek

@Luuklag mind tossing it a flag so we don't forget, I'll take a look when I get home

Luuklag

@JourneymanGeek Sure

Rob

@Luuklag Yes, less than a million a piece for your fireworks seems more cost effective; but they don't work as well.

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 There is faster even still, almost Mach 10 ATM, but Mach 20 is coming RSN; those are bound to cost 10x as much and only fly for a couple of minutes: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrahMos-II en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HGV-202F en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_X-43

Luuklag

12:10 PM

@Rob agreed, a toy car won't drive very well on a sea

Rob

@JourneymanGeek Better equipment at those three links. Who'd have thought that India is one of the leading countries in the SCRAMJet field.

DavidPostill

@SmokeDetector f

Luuklag

@DavidPostill spamseed

by a possible sock

DavidPostill

@Luuklag Not obvious is it? Removed my vote.

Luuklag

@DavidPostill No, not now since the spam answer is nuked

answer contained spam links and used really similar wording

posted a few minutes after the Q

DavidPostill

12:21 PM

OK

Luuklag

Here was the spam answer: metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/post/314251

Journeyman Geek

@Rob India kinda has a pretty decent military base at the moment, and well, are buying the good stuff

Luuklag

12:52 PM

@SmokeDetector k

@SmokeDetector why

Rob

1:24 PM

@JourneymanGeek Ah, yes. The friendly neighbor policy: missilethreat.csis.org/country/pakistan missilethreat.csis.org/country/iran

Journeyman Geek

1:55 PM

@Rob actually I think the indians are ok with the Iranians

Feeds

Using collections to make your SQL access easier and more efficient

Ryan Donovan on June 30, 2021

To overcome SQL limitations, many companies introduced programming languages for building applications that interface with SQL databases—for example PL/SQL from Oracle. PL/SQL applications can be inefficient. But you can streamline this interface using data type collections, making PL/SQL applications faster and more efficient.

Kevin B

2:13 PM

🚽

Luuklag

@Feeds wow, an actual onebox

Journeyman Geek

2:31 PM

@Feeds Using oneboxes to make your feed access easier and more efficient

Rob

2:46 PM

@JourneymanGeek Yes, Iran gets along with India; and with Pakistan, which has a dispute with India. It's all very complicated,with a lot of firepower all within range of each other; and the need to overfly one territory or another to strike one's enemy (creating a new enemy of the country permitting the flight). Glad to live several minutes away from the action: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Journeyman Geek

@Rob also Pakistan knows if there's a proper hot war they'll get pasted

hence cosying up with china, and irregular actions in kashmir and elsewhere

Luuklag

Isn't it so that India and Pakistan are officially still at war?

Journeyman Geek

uh, I am not actually sure actually

Wolf

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 LOL

Rob

3:17 PM

@JourneymanGeek The Kashmir conflict is part of the sort of thing that makes it all so complicated: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… - some people send money to foreign entities to hire influencers (to offer bribes) and insurgents (to conduct military (terrorist) operations). So voting here and there can get skewed, and various areas or people can suffer bad luck.

Spevacus

3:30 PM

@JourneymanGeek I've created the skeleton for the question about updating the site-specific close reason, but I've run into a bit of a problem I'd like your (and others') advice on. In order to arrive at a final draft of the 5 fields that are available to us, I was thinking that we could use a community wiki answer to allow users to freely edit the reason into something acceptable.

However we do have five fields to do this to, so I'm curious if we should do five different CW answers to let people edit each field individually (this feels just a bit excessive but it could work out fine). Or, should I just not post a CW answer (or answers) and see if others would like to answer first?

Journeyman Geek

@Spevacus I would go with one and have folks post their own takes on it personally. Not a fan of CW for that

Then we can work out the best elements for a final one

Spevacus

So you're saying I should post one non-wiki answer that has the draft for all 5 fields and let folks work out the best elements and refine that answer to a final draft?

Journeyman Geek

@Spevacus yes

And if folks feel they can do better post their own answers

Spevacus

roger that!

Rob

Start your engines. JK

@Jou @Spe, so isn't whatever is decided on going to propagate to most of the other sites; so it ought to be written so that other sites won't complain - so it should be Featured on MSE so everyone sees it for a week ... ?

Spevacus

3:48 PM

@Rob Nope, this is specifically for updating Meta SE's "applies only to one specific site" close reason to use the 5 fields that are now available to close reasons. This information is just localized to Meta SE.

One of the problems Geek raised about the site-specific close reason is that the help center doesn't fully back up what the site-specific close reason indicates users should do. But, while we're trying to update the help center for MSE for that, Catija recommended that we update the whole process, which includes updating our site's close reasons to use all of the new fields that are available to us.

Updating the close reasons in this way should help make closure with those reasons less ambiguous for all users involved; the close voter, the post author, and the casual reader.

Rob

@Spevacus So this is incorrect:

They probably set them on Stack Overflow thinking it would propagate network-wide, but they're actually propagated from this site (Meta.SE). Editing them on a different site will create a site-specific override (and prevent future propagation to that site). — Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog Aug 14 '20 at 21:45

or doesn't apply ...

Spevacus

I'm not 100% sure about that specifically. I do feel that the help center for this site certainly needs updated, but the changes that it needs are rather specific to Meta SE. If the default behavior would be to propagate the changes we'd make to the help center here to the rest of the network... We should look into how to not do that.

My focus right now is just on the close reason fields, not the help center (though the help center does need updated)

Rob

@Spevacus Updating the reason re-banners old closes with the *new" reason - so if the reason is slightly different it might be confusing why a very old (borderline) post was closed that way.

Spevacus

Yep, that's a concern we're going to have to take into consideration when updating it. Alternatively, we can retire the current reason if the changes we're going to make are going to be significant, and we can make a new close reason with our adjustments.

While that might happen, the changes I'm personally going to propose shouldn't be too overarching. They should still capture the edge cases, but also include detail to fill the current gaps in guidance.

Rob

4:04 PM

@Spevacus ... or do it twice, once to propagate so almost ? everyone gets a new copy, then again without propagating so we have our own unique version (which explains how it's different here).

👍 for being the volunteer.

Spevacus

4:50 PM

@Rob Yep, that sounds like a decent plan.

Also, thanks :)

Rob

I took a look to see if it was posted, but not yet - will it be hours or days away? (no rush)

Spevacus

An hour or two, unless I should post the answer a little bit later. I was thinking of doing an ask+answer combo at the same time.

Wolgwang

5:08 PM

Is it possible to prevent a room from bumping on the first page of active chatrooms?

rene

Nope, only if you make it a mod room.

Wolgwang

What if someone did?(without making it a mod room)

rene

Maybe rooms that get created from the automatic "comments moved to chat" under a question are exempt from that as well.

@Wolgwang what do you mean?

Kevin B

my understanding is it is possible for a mod to take a "moved comments to chat" room and change the name, add owners, etc, effectively creating a room that doesn't get bumped to the top of the list, but has all the benefits of a normal room

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

@Wolf hey what did you remove? :(

Wolgwang

5:15 PM

Ohk Thanks :-)

Rob

@Spevacus Sounds great. - ɯ-(ꞋʊꞋ)-ɯ

Wolgwang

Jun 23 at 17:16, by SmokeDetector

Please don't play with me too much; I'm a serious bot meant for detecting spam, not for playing around with! I've got some fun features, but please be careful not to abuse them.

Who played with it?

Kevin B

why

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

@Wolgwang wolf

ironically

you're @Wolf too. LOL

Does it ping you?

Wolgwang

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Nope @Wolg would ....

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask V2

5:33 PM

oh wait

LOL

need coffee

rene

sdc coffee sha

SmokeDetector

@rene brews a cup of Americano for @sha

Kevin B

☕️

Spevacus

6:06 PM

@Rob I've gone ahead and posted it. It's a bit longer than I wanted it to be, but here we are.

Rob

@Spevacus Very quickly, will look in half an hour:

Before: "... this question on the meta site where your concern originated."

After: "... this question on the meta of the site where your concern originated."

Spevacus

yep, good catch

er, hang on

yeah I don't use that verbiage in my proposed format

Rob

7:00 PM

Read Q. 👍

Spevacus

Good deal :)

Rob

7:19 PM

@Spevacus Re-reading the Q, and the source text: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/362581/… it's seems that the word child was synonymized long ago and only appears in the source once, it's "per-site-meta" meta.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/… let's not have to look up things, "child" could go in brackets after the correct terminology; if that's better.

Spevacus

Hm. Changing that to "per-site-meta" might be the way to go. I don't see the "child meta" terminology used much anymore.

Rob

@Spe, also rarely (?) it can apply to two or three sites; especially if it was never discussed in the meta of one or more of the affected sites (and they just went over everyone's head, coming straight to MSE; where those site's users may never see the post). ---- Recent discussion: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/366843/… meta.stackexchange.com/a/366849/282094

How on Earth you are going to word that exception succinctly and clearly; I dunno.

4 hours ago, by Rob

👍 for being the volunteer.

Spevacus

7:37 PM

We'll figure it out.

Rob

7:47 PM

It's the same reason (sort of) as if you disagree with a site's moderation and come directly to MSE rather than posting on the per-site-meta (or using the Contact link, if that would be more comfortable) - except that more than one site is involved, which isn't exclusive of the similarity as some moderators moderate more than one site; and the user might complain about 2-5 sites (one issue / person).

DavidPostill

8:17 PM

@SmokeDetector f

Spevacus

9:17 PM

@Tinkeringbell Thanks for running through each field and sanity-checking/nitpicking! I'll apply some more changes tomorrow and let others weigh in while the question sits there for awhile. With regards to the above convo, do you have a personal preference between "child meta," "per site meta" or some other wording? I'm having a tough time deciding. "Child meta" doesn't seem used as often as the "per site meta" or variations thereof. Could use an extra voice :)

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