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Journeyman Geek

12:24 AM

That's not an office chair

Meta Andrew T.

4:00 AM

Somehow morning?

Feeds

4:44 AM

Podcast 252: a conversation on diversity and representation

Ben Popper on July 14, 2020

A conversation with the co-chairs of Stack Overflow’s Black and Brown affinity group.

Tinkeringbell

7:20 AM

@MetaAndrewT. somehow, yeah.

Mithical

7:41 AM

→ 25 messages moved to Chimney

Looks like someone went through and downvoted all the answers to the poetry contest

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@Mithical me not that did

Fun haters, blame is theirs.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

8:11 AM

@Rob is this male or female?

Not that I care much, but @M.A.R might.

:D

@MetaAndrewT. not anymore

Rob

8:23 AM

@ShadowWizardWearingMask It is not proportional so it's difficult to say, I would guess male.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

8:38 AM

@Rob thanks!

JNat

9:14 AM

@SonictheMaskedWerehog gone

M.A.R.

@ShadowWizardWearingMask No comment

rene

9:31 AM

→ 13 messages moved to Chimney

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

9:45 AM

@M.A.R. and commit?

M.A.R.

@ShadowWizardWearingMask Not a programmer or astronomer

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@M.A.R. fine fine, so you can have a Commitment.

M.A.R.

10:13 AM

@ShadowWizardWearingMask Oh that's beyond benign!

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

Hey @Tinkeringbell - why was my answer deleted from this question? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/350544/…

Tinkeringbell

@Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi It was brought to my attention for being rude. I fixed it, you ruined it again, so I deleted.

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

How exactly was it being "rude"?

Tinkeringbell

I think you can figure that one out. Rude, offensive to groups of people, take a pick.

There's no need for the language you used to ask if you can still become a moderator if you don't agree with the entire code of conduct

As proven by the above sentence.

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

This is a link to the revision of that answer, for the record: meta.stackexchange.com/posts/350800/revisions

Tinkeringbell

10:18 AM

Oh, I know which answer we're talking about, no need ;)

If you don't want my opinion but instead want the room to tell you I was wrong, you probably shouldn't ping me with your question ;)

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

It was clearly not offending anyone, nor was using rude language.

Tinkeringbell

It was clearly bothering someone, or it wouldn't have been brought to my attention.

Honestly, if the question of whether you or anyone else can become a mod without fully agreeing with the CoC is important to you, you can ask it.

But given your insistence on the use of specific language to ask it, I can only conclude that that question isn't important to you, pushing your agenda is.

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

The reason I use that specific language - which for the record is associating the mandatory usage of stated pronouns to a specific ideological agenda - is that this requirement bothers me.

Because there are perfectly rational, respectful reasons to disagree with it. And yet, one cannot apparently become a moderator without embracing it.

Tinkeringbell

Well, then don't become a moderator?

Because as a moderator you have to upheld the rules the platform gives you to uphold, and I just did, whether you like it or not.

"No language likely to alienate or offend people"

M.A.R.

🍿

Tinkeringbell

10:25 AM

Are those McDonalds fries, ice cream in a red carton, or a red/yellow birdhouse?

M.A.R.

It's a pyramid with a giant pool of blood in front of it

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

I don't think I would have the time anyway. But if someone had both the time and the will, they might not based solely on an arbitrary, subjective definition of what constitutes "offense". Offense is taken, not given.

M.A.R.

So metaphorical

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

Which is precisely one of the reasons how the entire Monica business started, for the record.

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. Hmm. I thought the Mayan sacrificial ones were more stepping stone like...

M.A.R.

10:28 AM

@Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi if you want others in this room to discuss neutrally whether a certain phrasing would be rude or not, we need a quote or a screenshot. Otherwise, I think discussing it in private is better?

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. He linked the revision history above...

M.A.R.

@Tinkeringbell We're sorry, we couldn't find the page you requested.

Tinkeringbell

Aww, poor repless you.

M.A.R.

q_q

Tinkeringbell

Have at it then ;)

M.A.R.

10:29 AM

I'm only repless because I didn't answer "y teh downrate" questions

Tinkeringbell

M.A.R.

. . . Too many of them

It's rather inflammatory. I don't know about rude.

Tinkeringbell

I'm pretty confident in my decision that this being language likely to alienate groups of people is a correct interpretation, and that the question about moderating and the CoC can be asked without doing so...

@M.A.R. Perhaps we should rename the r/a flag to 'violates the CoC'...

M.A.R.

Should I believe the Anglocentric US-based propaganda about venturing deep into space? Have you stopped beating your wife?

Tinkeringbell

It links to it, after all.

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

10:32 AM

Your decision is also "likely to alienate groups of people" - those disagreeing with CoC changes, for example.

M.A.R.

In case my previous message is unclear, you can Google the second question.

@Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi This idea has been brought up so many times. What it's essentially saying is no change is possible because you'd alienate the ones disagreeing with it; in itself, it can't be a rebuttal of anything, thus.

Tinkeringbell

There's plenty of other posts for disagreeing with the CoC changes. But do note that even so, language likely to alienate of offend people is still not allowed on those posts either. (And no, you don't get to bypass that because that was in the CoC long before the change you're disagreeing with).

So disagree, but do so respectfully, and do it on the appropriate post.

M.A.R.

And I haven't decided anything on the matter yet, personally.

Tinkeringbell

14 mins ago, by Tinkeringbell

But given your insistence on the use of specific language to ask it, I can only conclude that that question isn't important to you, pushing your agenda is.

M.A.R.

That. To immediately call it "left-wing identity politics" you have immediately questioned the motives behind this move without the defendant having been able to present anything for themselves.

f.khantsis

10:37 AM

Hey guys, I have a question about meta stackoverflow, is this the right place?

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

And I agree with removing that - my edit removed it.

M.A.R.

@f.khantsis sure, ask away. It's just a general-purpose chatroom

f.khantsis

basically, I put in a synonym and retag request 8 months ago. It got +5 reputation, but no action was done

I am still interested in that request. Should I make a new post, or how do I promote the retag/synonym

M.A.R.

@f.khantsis SO is rather procedural about tag removals/synonyms etc. You can ask your question again on SOCVR, or put up a meta post.

f.khantsis

what's SOCVR?

this was my meta post:
https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/391010/synonym-request-agm

M.A.R.

10:39 AM

SO Close Vote Reviewers

This room is for support and discussion about reviewing and co...

20

15

Tinkeringbell

Yeah, I think people there will know better than the current people here...

M.A.R.

@f.khantsis Oh. Perhaps chat is the way to go then, to bring new attention to it

f.khantsis

ok, I'll ask in that chatroom, thank you guys

Tinkeringbell

You're welcome!

(MAR did all the work, but meh :P )

Dang I almost missed lunch!

Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi

11:01 AM

"language likely to alienate of offend people". Who arbitrates what is "offensive"? The rule is based on the emotion of the recipient instead of the intent and action of the sender.

Your very arbitrary enforcement of this rule has historically led even to the impossibility of explaining one's reasons behind criticism - such as in the deletion of [this answer](https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/336755/397731) that I strived to write in the most neutral way possible.

After deletion I asked a moderator on how I could edit it to explain my viewpoint in a way that is considered acceptable, and I…

M.A.R.

@Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi I hope you're aware that "who decides what's offensive" is an argument mostly thrown around by people who do want to be offensive. I'm not gonna assume you're one, because I'm missing a lot of context still. So, to be clear, are you here to contest the deletion of one or more of your posts, or are we about to have a philosophical discussion on what constitutes offense?

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. Just in time to add spam to my lunch today.

M.A.R.

In the latter case, I'm afraid people have been more sensitive lately, and sometimes trolls have abused this to the detriment of people's valuable time, but almost by definition, if people agree that something is rude, it's rude.

If you disagree, you're just one side of the argument, and if several people agree something's rude, it automatically is. Your options are not bringing it up, at least that way, or to leave the group altogether.

Everyone can and might say things they don't consider rude while others do.

Tinkeringbell

They should make you a mod someday, M.A.R.

M.A.R.

Nah, I'm probably too clingy to my clown side

I need to grow up a little, and also participate a little

My last post goes back to . . . two days ago. On meta.ELL

But they're infrequent, OK!

Tinkeringbell

11:21 AM

No worries. Take your time growing up ;)

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

11:50 AM

@Emanuele-reinsMonica-Ciriachi I'll just share my two cents on this: by making this political, you offend people who choose to have non-standard pronouns because you stick a label to them. Pronouns got nothing to do with politics or ideology. And by trying to make it appear that way, you try to disqualify the whole thing. That's my personal view, and I support the mod actions. If you want to disagree with something, don't bring politics into it.

Mithical

12:01 PM

s/choose to/

Spevacus

12:24 PM

Ayyy, fun backlog today.

How're we doing?

Tinkeringbell

Bored at work, and there?

Spevacus

Similarly bored at work.

Tinkeringbell

\o/ Welcome to the club :)

Spevacus

My job, if I choose to accept it, is to launch an .exe programmatically from our main software. How long it takes me to perform this task is... up to my discretion ;)

Tinkeringbell

My job is to fix stuff that should've been fixed ages ago.

Spevacus

12:28 PM

Oh... And our DevOps builder agent crapped out, so we decided it just needs redone. I get to do that at some point later today as well...

We've got a bunch of those issues, too. Not enough for yelling, fires and pitchforks, but enough for the list to seem a tad daunting.

Tinkeringbell

It's okay. Most of them are small fixes, stuff that should've been found when testing before a release but of course is only found after...

It's mostly just annoying and boring because now it comes with a whole lot of administration and making sure you get the right branches and things merged and blegh :P

Spevacus

I feel that. Our head programmer used to work by his lonesome, and while he tries his best to keep up with the times, the idea of source control still eludes him a bit.

Apparently he was once upon a time semi-fluent with Mercurial. He wasn't ready when the company hired two young people (myself and another) and showed him the wonderful world of Azure DevOps.

Tinkeringbell

Poor guy.

Source control is a thing here too. They're getting better at it but it's still far from perfect, sadly.

Spevacus

In my (very limited) experience, I've found that I should just be thankful when things work out.

Tinkeringbell

That's rule number 1 of programming, right? ;)

Spevacus

12:45 PM

Trueeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Yes, it is.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

Sometimes they work out in a wrong direction though, like a tooth growing in the opposite direction, then you need to spend a fortune in the future to fix it...

So it's important to keep an eye in early stages. ;)

Spevacus

I think that's just ensuring you have job security. ;)

rene

→ 11 messages moved to Chimney

Tinkeringbell

@Spevacus Hey, I've got to make my money one way or another!

Spevacus

=)

Journeyman Geek

2:56 PM

@Tinkeringbell you clearly think he hasn't suffered enough 🤣

M.A.R.

@Spevacus I love it when I'm part of the backlog. Makes me content.

Can't begin to imagine how famous journalists feel by being read

Spevacus

You and Tink worded your replies very well. It was worth reading :)

Aibobot

So... today...

reached home at about 10am, slept till 2, got woken up, was at the vet and got home at 4, slept till 8 pm

mom woke me up for work... I was all "Bwaahhhhh? ITS 8? I MISSED WORK????"

(I work at 11pm today, and it was 8pm not 8 am)

._.

Spevacus

\o/

Aibobot

one more day of this for this week, but 3 night shifts a week suck

M.A.R.

3:07 PM

One reason I chose pharmacy over medicinal doctor

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek was it that obvious?

user400654

3:29 PM

🚽

Aibobot

It is a bit :D

Tinkeringbell

I'll try and be more subtle next time ;)

Rob

@M.A.R. PharmD is so long in school, with another year or two one could become a doctor or a lawyer: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Pharmacy#Iran en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_education#United_States - becoming an Anesthesiologist takes half the time: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anesthesiology#United_Kingdom and pay U$1/4M / yr. (in the US).

terdon

3:47 PM

@Rob half the time? How so? Anesthesiologists are MDs, so they do all the time it takes to become a doctor and then another couple of years training.

Rob

4:03 PM

@terdon Anesthesiologists can start with a degree and don't need a doctorate.

terdon

@Rob Where? I've never heard of that before. The page you link to starts with "A candidate must first have completed medical school training to be awarded a medical degree, before embarking on a programme of postgraduate specialist training or residency which can range from four to nine years".

Is there a specific country that has Anesthesiologists who aren't medical doctors? I admit I find that a scary thought, it's a very complex subject that requires a broad understanding of the human body.

Rob

Click on the link "medical degree" and see what a degree is, and how it differs from a doctorate.

It's not as great a difference as Radiographer vs Radiologist: globalpremeds.com/blog/2016/06/29/radiology-radiography where the difference in length of training between those two (and the responsibilities) are huge.

The "residency" from four to nine years is paid work at a hospital, as opposed to paying to go to school and being unemployed.

M.A.R.

4:24 PM

Anesthesiologists here also have to do more years than PharmD

The length doesn't matter too much, I want to pursue an academic career anyway.

And being a lawyer here doesn't pay

@Rob I study in a state university, all expenses paid. Well, most expenses paid.

It's in my hometown, so I actually go to the university from home

Conscious choice; me being an RTR patient, in another city I would've had to find another nephrologist, some tiring procedure between the two, and a lot of hassle if something goes wrong.

And Tabriz's pharmacy faculty is the 2nd best in Iran. It's not saying much but I don't have world conquering Oxford studying plans at the moment

@terdon One certain patient was hospitalized in the transplant ward for 90 days since the anesthesiologist didn't clear him for the transplant operation. He'd been there a while when I got there, and 22 days later he was still there

Rob

@M.A.R. I noticed that, while gurgling some info; If you do well on your entrance exam it's free.

John Dvorak

Is there such a thing as artificial kidneys? Most likely a better choice than a transplant.

Rob

@M.A.R. ... and has unusual hazards in some cases.

Aibobot

4:44 PM

@JohnDvorak uhhh

dialysis machines?

John Dvorak

Something ... portable, would be nice

terdon

@Rob It doesn't, really. I mean, the page describes various types of medical degree, of which only the first (Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery (MBBS, BMBS, MBChB, MBBCh) isn't a full MD that gives you the right to practice medicine. And it makes sense, since anesthesiology is a medical specialty, just like immunologist, or psychiatrist or any other.

Aibobot

@terdon and the system can be different. US only does medicine as a postgrad no?

terdon

I would be very surprised to learn that there are countries that allow people to be anesthesiologists without also being medical doctors.

@Aibobot Depends. You have pre-medical school which is one of the ways you can enter an MD program.

But yes, in order to practice medicine, you need a post-graduate degree in the US AFAIK, I don't think there are schools that offer MDs that you can enter straight out of high school./

But even in systems where you do enter straight out of highschool, the programs are much longer and are the equivalent of postgraduate degrees.

Aibobot

@terdon here its undergrad but there's a collab with duke and nus for an "american" style medical degree. :D

hence me knowing that

terdon

4:51 PM

Anyway, @Rob, it also states it quite clearly at the beginning of the WP entry we've been quoting at each other (emphasis mine): "Anesthesiology [...] is the medical speciality" and "A physician specialised in this field of medicine is called an anesthesiologist" and "* In some countries anesthesiologists comprise the largest single cohort of doctors in hospitals*".

@Aibobot Isn't it significantly longer than other undergrad degrees? Does it take you as long to graduate with a degree in Chemistry say as it does to graduate with a degree that lets you practice medicine?

Aibobot

@terdon I don't know :D

you basically need to be a straight A student ++++ to even think about it

nus.edu.sg/nusbulletin/yong-loo-lin-school-of-medicine/… says 5 years

I don't know if a chemistry degree is 3 years or a 4 year honours degree

terdon

@Aibobot But can you then work as a doctor or is that just the preliminary degree you need before going into some other school?

Aibobot

@terdon that'll get you in as a doctor

no specialisation I guess

(i don't know lol)

terdon

Yeah: "with the foundation to undergo further training to become excellent clinicians and specialists, clinician-researchers, clinician-scholars, or health administrators."

Aibobot

@terdon well - I'd guess they'd have fellowships, recidencies...

but you'd be a doctor

terdon

4:57 PM

Dunno, the page carefully avoids that term and instead calls them "medical practitioners"

Aibobot

lol

terdon

shrugs Bureaucracy.

Aibobot

I'd be able to answer if I wasn't terrible in school :D

Bart

5:13 PM

@ShadowWizardWearingMask DAMMIT

Rob

5:45 PM

averagesalarysurvey.com/pharmacist/iran salaryexplorer.com/…

@terdon In my reply to @M.A.R., the question asked of him, was why not go to school for longer or shorter and get paid more; than to be a PharmD and get paid ~U$19K/year? - Terdon (and others) we don't mind you listening in but additional questions should go to the question being asked or to the one who has the answer (possibly the one being asked) - this isn't what I studied in school.--- Sources for wages:

Rob

5:56 PM

As an example, McDonald's minimum (in the US) is almost that much and the average is much more: payscale.com/research/US/Employer=McDonald%27s_Corporation/…

M.A.R.

7:20 PM

@JohnDvorak It actually wouldn't. Subcutaneous dialysis is less effective.

@Rob A dollar is 210000 rials now. Do you think that's a fair comparison?

@Rob There are only two major primarily education-based jobs that earn more here: dentistry, and MD. Furthermore, these figures seem to be for pharmacists that work in pharmacies owned by someone else. At least here, with some shenanigans, although not too much, you can get a document to own a pharmacy. If you do, you'd often earn more than a simple pharmacist, if the pharmacy's in a busy enough location.

And that's not really a high bar. Iran has a much smaller ratio of pharmacist/population and MD/population

Honestly, if I was going for the money, I should get in the real estate business or something similar.

I've seen what active professional doctors go through everyday. Very tangibly.

And it gets only harder as you go higher.

terdon

@Rob I'm sorry, Rob, I know I go off on tangents because I find something intriguing. I just read your comment about anesthesiologists not being medical doctors (perhaps more accurately, I read my interpretation of your comment) and started wondering about that. Which is why I kept pinging you. I didn't mean to be pushy, it really annoys me when people keep pinging for no good reason, so I should have known better. :/

M.A.R.

Well @Sha pings me for no good reason

^ useless ping

Journeyman Geek

@terdon you pung him again

terdon

Well yes, but this time it was indeed intentional! :)

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. ping for the sheer joy of pinging!

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

7:33 PM

@Bart did you steal Shog's detector? That message didn't ping you. Or... Wait... are you Shog ¿

M.A.R.

@Journey

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

:D

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizardWearingMask we are all Shog!

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

Huh why no bold

Journeyman Geek

I think the ? spoiled it

the upside down ? thing

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

7:34 PM

You mean the ¿

M.A.R.

Jan 18 '16 at 17:26, by Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Plot twist: We're all @bjb's socks.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

Lol

M.A.R.

؟

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

My phone has auto long press since it fell over a year ago.

@M.A.R. you were different back then

M.A.R.

Maybe you're angrier ever since it fell

@ShadowWizardWearingMask Yeah, not superhuman

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

7:38 PM

@M.A.R. hey, my reasons are always good.

DavidPostill

yesterday, by Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@rene you win, since @Bart is not here.

How is that not pinging @bart?

Journeyman Geek

shhh. LET HIM BELIEVE IN MAGIC! :D

M.A.R.

@Rob the chart also seems to include pharmacists with a bachelor's degree. To my knowledge, this is a rather new phenomenon here and allows folks who can't do better at studying to get some leeway. It's rather restricted though. I'd doubt there are more than a thousand pharmacists in Iran with a bachelor's degree, so I have no idea where the information in that chart comes from. Either that, or it's mistakenly displaying students that work as assistants to pharmacists and such.

Sonic the Masked Werehog

@M.A.R. Wasn't there a plan to redenominate the currency by 10,000?

Spevacus

ArtOfCode... More like... ArtOf... Shmode. >:(

DavidPostill

7:55 PM

@Spevacus I already took care of it ...

Spevacus

You're a saint.

DavidPostill

😇

Rob

8:58 PM

@terdon It was more about yesterday, and someone else, than you and today. The other person kept asking the same question, one that had been answered and the comment answering quoted; only to lead to them asking again. I can only politely say that their backscroll must have been broken. -- I wasn't objecting to what you asked, just suggesting that the expertise lay elsewhere; other than me. - No harm done.

Journeyman Geek

@Rob uhhh

Was it the guy complaining about pronouns?

Rob

I'll have to scroll back, in an hour to answer. My initial answer would be: that wasn't the problem.

Journeyman Geek

Clearly, I ping no one :D

I reply even less :D

Rob

✔️

DavidPostill

9:14 PM

✖️

Rob

9:58 PM

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

11:04 PM

@DavidPostill he didn't visit the room for a week, so wasn't pingable. If a name doesn't autocomplete after a @, it means it's not pingable. E.g. now @Adam isn't pingable. :(

??

That was pure spam.

Too lazy to look on MS now, but I'm pretty sure.

Journeyman Geek

Looks like span

Bryan Krause

11:33 PM

@terdon I think he just misunderstood the wikipedia page. There are definitely people trained in anesthesiology who administer anesthesia who are not MDs (one category in the US is called 'nurse anesthetist'); no one called an "anesthesiologist" in any primarily English-speaking country (won't count on translations) has less than an MD or equivalent (source: I work in a department of anesthesiology)

Rob

I'm guessing that the exchange rate is *tricky*: https://travel.stackexchange.com/q/142013/90750 - people want foreign currency and pay a better rate than the banks; but the limit for leaving the country is €5K (a good one month's salary in the US). --- "Do I think it's a fair comparison?", well checking the current rates it's even lower, equal: 740,000,000 Iranian Rial =
17,575.11 United States Dollar per year (for 5+ years of university, compared to slightly more for no university or experience). The point seems fair.

SO Close Vote Reviewers

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