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M.A.R.
M.A.R.
8:00 PM
The first step towards being a meditator is probably feeling the need to come out of the often mundane everyday routine.
So, LEVEL UP
@Rubiksmoose why ugh? You've seen it?
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
I will attempt, as a physicist by education, not to rant about that "documentary". Maybe I'll just let wiki do it for me:
 
user400654
user400654
Ah, so i've been using the wrong word this whole time
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
> Scientists who have reviewed What the Bleep Do We Know!? have described distinct assertions made in the film as pseudoscience.[11][12] Lisa Randall refers to the film as "the bane of scientists".[13]
 
Rob
Rob
yesterday, by Tinkeringbell
@Rob I do wonder why people need to learn to do that on purpose
 
user400654
user400654
how is that even pronounced
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
8:01 PM
@M.A.R. I have.
 
user400654
user400654
sounds like apacheism
only th instead of ch
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
@Rubiksmoose I read that in some deep voice and clenching fist
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
> Scientists who have reviewed What the Bleep Do We Know!? have described distinct assertions made in the film as pseudoscience.[11][12] Lisa Randall refers to the film as "the bane of scientists".[13] Amongst the assertions in the film that have been challenged are that water molecules can be influenced by thought ...
> (as popularized by Masaru Emoto), that meditation can reduce violent crime rates,[14] and that quantum physics implies that "consciousness is the ground of all being." The film was also discussed in a letter published in Physics Today that challenges how physics is taught, saying teaching fails to "expose the mysteries physics has encountered [and] reveal the limits of our understanding".
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
@Rubiksmoose Ugh, that one
@Rubiksmoose Ugh, those ones
 
user400654
user400654
heh, that's fun
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
8:02 PM
Yup. IIRC they placed water drops on emotional words and froze them and claimed that emotions had a difference on their molecular structure.
 
user400654
user400654
intertwining consciousness with quantum theory
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
Washes Watchlist with heavy soap
Sorry @David
 
user400654
user400654
it's, an odd combo, because neither are well understood, but both are very observable
 
DavidPostill
DavidPostill
I enjoyed it because it was thought provoking. I'm well aware that some people disagree with what is being discussed in the film.
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
Distance is relative. Velocity is relative. Time is also relative, then. How on Earth do they get to consciousness from this?!
 
user400654
user400654
8:05 PM
because they're both mysterious, they must be related
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
@DavidPostill About biocentrism (or solipsism), there are really thought-provoking discussions to be had
In fact, so thought-provoking that they make my mind hurt.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@DavidPostill I actually do think it is thought provoking to watch. No arguments there.
I just get really upset when people try to twist science into saying things that it isn't even coming close to saying.
 
Rob
Rob
@M.A.R. The velocity, distance and time of your relatives is something we are conscious of.
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
I had to make heads and tails of Wittgenstein as part of an assignment. Then I realized that if I went that way, financial troubles would have been the least of my problems
@Rob Why. Squints
 
DavidPostill
DavidPostill
@Rubiksmoose Lots of scientific theories started off that way :)
 
Rob
Rob
8:09 PM
Be mindful
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
By watching my relatives?
I'm still not the next Einstein. Citation needed.
 
Rob
Rob
Squint harder, or consult a thesaurus.
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
@Rob I've got my good eye on you.
Which is the right one. -2.
 
Rob
Rob
Spoiler: No one ever visits
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
The other is -2.5? I think
@Rob I'm starting to see things. Maybe I should stop squinting now
 
Rob
Rob
8:13 PM
yesterday, by Rob
People attempting Google Translate crashed their computers and got cut off by their ISP.
Squirting
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
Only in your font
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
8:29 PM
Oof the rest of the Academic Reception section of that wiki article on "WTF do we know" Has some very Not Nice things in it...
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
There's actually a distinctive lack of 'WTF do we know' documentaries from people of renown in a field
Except maybe boring reviews behind paywalls
43 mins ago, by M.A.R.
@DavidPostill Well TBH gathering quantum physics and neurology under a single umbrella is also a red flag because it'd mean it's not going to have a serious discussion on either
Another red flag: The promotional poster:
To use Greek letters to stylize it to make it look more sciency
 
user1306322
user1306322
test: [tag:discussion] [meta-tag:discussion] discussion discussion
mse seems to make both tag and meta-tag look and act the same
and chat too
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
Yeah
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@M.A.R. "it's time to get wise" also has a very "wake up sheeple" vibe to it IMO
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
Aye, but a bit more subtle
Again, the whole "think of the universe as ideas and sh!t" thing can be really intriguing
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
8:36 PM
Absolutely
 
DavidPostill
DavidPostill
 
Sonic the Masked Werehog
Sonic the Masked Werehog
@user1306322 Yep, that's intentional. It's worth noting that in some very old posts, you may see the [tag: syntax intended to refer to tags on Stack Overflow; this is because prior to April 2014 (the mso-mse-split), that was how they used to work.
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
@DavidPostill A docudrama is different from a published study though. I'll read the first one, it seems to need some time because it talks both about rudimentary or historical backgrounds and also delves into topics above my paygrade. When you're making TV for a general audience, you can't treat the historical stuff like it's a blah blah been-there-read-that sort of thing, so I still stand by my statement that a documentary cannot talk about consciousness and quantum mechanics and take both
seriously.
Actually, I've watched quite a lot of movies and a few of the best TV shows, but I'm rather inexperienced when it comes to documentaries, except the altered, translated and probably pirated crap on our TV
Any suggestions? What do you guys watch?
 
DavidPostill
DavidPostill
@M.A.R. Well I've dug my DVDs out to watch it again. I'll get back to you later ...
 
M.A.R.
M.A.R.
8:54 PM
> Neuronal signaling molecules, neurons and neural networks are too large for quantum phenomena to play a significant role in their functioning. The conventional wisdom is that all quantum events are averaging out, so that fluctuations among quantum particles are not important. [...]
The second important criticism is that the interaction of neuronal molecules, neurons, or neuronal networks with their noisy, wet and warm environment will destroy any non-trivial quantum states such as superpositions or entanglements. If this were true, only trivial quantum effects could be present in the nerv…
It would be interesting if new things are discovered, but neurons are indeed treated as cells and cells only ATM AFAIK
That itself is hard enough to research and study
Which scientist was it that said we've explored the space way more than our own body?
 
user400654
user400654
9:11 PM
eh, it's a matter of scale
it's easy to look off into the distance and discover something that's sending something to you
light, or some form of radiation
but how do you explore something that... is, that thing that you usually use to detect things existing
 
DavidPostill
DavidPostill
@user400654 Or "It's easier to examine big things than little things" :)
 
user400654
user400654
exploring that can help further the exploration at distance
by helping you better understand the data that is coming to you
Just as better understanding the core of our planet can help us know what clues to look for in others
or the evloution of t he planet, to determine whether a planet we're seeing a billion years in the past could be harboring life right now
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
What The Bleep Do We Know isn't quantum physics, it's quantum woo "the justification of irrational beliefs by an obfuscatory reference to quantum physics."
> Quantum woo is an attempt to piggy-back on the success and legitimacy of science by claiming quack ideas are rooted in accepted concepts in physics, combined with utter misunderstanding of these concepts and a sense of wonder at the amazing magic these misunderstandings would imply if true.
 
user400654
user400654
9:28 PM
 
Rob
Rob
Exoplanet TOI-849b is 730 light years away, but 730 years ago we wouldn't have known to look for it, or been able to see it.
Today we can see into the past, of another world.
 
user400654
user400654
just such an odd idea to think about, how if we were to leave, to go to a planet 730 light years away, that by the time we got there thousands of years would have passed. As you got closer and closer, each generation of people aboard would be able to learn more and more about it as it became more and more observable
assuming they didn't all kill themselves over being stuck in such a ship for a lifetime
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
@user400654 If you had a ship that could go fast enough, the journey could be as short as you like for the passengers, although for observers on Earth it'd take at least 730 years.
But of course, going that fast requires insane amounts of energy.
 
Yaakov Ellis
Yaakov Ellis
@LinkBerest I only saw your message linked now. Should be pretty straightforward to turn off reactions for a team. If still something that you are interested in, please email me details on your issue, when did you contact support, etc
 
Rob
Rob
9:56 PM
Another odd thing is that long ago light did not exist, and due to the expansion of the universe those objects have moved beyond the horizon of where we would ever be able to see:
Cosmological horizon
A cosmological horizon is a measure of the distance from which one could possibly retrieve information. This observable constraint is due to various properties of general relativity, the expanding universe, and the physics of Big Bang cosmology. Cosmological horizons set the size and scale of the observable universe. This article explains a number of these horizons. == Particle horizon == The particle horizon (also called the cosmological horizon, the comoving horizon, or the cosmic light horizon) is the maximum distance from which light from particles could have traveled to the observer in the...
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
@Rob "long ago light did not exist" I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say there. Light has existed since a tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang started. However, light couldn't travel very far until the universe was about 380,000 years old.
 
Rob
Rob
^^
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
 
user400654
user400654
10:13 PM
@PM2Ring Yes, i was speaking strictly on today's technology, but i guess that wouldn't necessarily be relevant, considering today's technology literally can't (successfully) send humans to another system
the ideas are there, but the how and execution isn't
 
Rob
Rob
"Because no signals can travel faster than light, any object farther away from us than light could travel in the age of the universe (estimated as of 2015 around 13.799±0.021 billion years[5]) simply cannot be detected, as the signals could not have reached us yet.". --- 45.7 light years distance away. --- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe
^^ billion
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
@user400654 Fair enough. Even with future tech, there's no getting around the energy cost of traveling interstellar distances at high speed. I suppose a slow "generation ship" can take millennia to reach its destination.
@Rob Indeed.
 
Rob
Rob
A (currently fictional) method is:
Space folding
Space folding is a fictional method of instant space travel whereby the space folds so that the start and end points of the trip coincide/touch, and the travel takes no time.In the Dune franchise created by Frank Herbert, space folding is depicted as instantaneous interstellar travel effected by mutated Guild Navigators under the influence of the drug melange. Kevin R. Grazier analyzes the concepts of folding space and faster-than-light travel in the essay "Cosmic Origami" in The Science of Dune (2008).In A Wrinkle in Time (1962) by Madeleine L'Engle, "tesseracts" allow for travel through space...
 
user400654
user400654
some of the technology that would be required to make such a generational ship isn't technology that would be... profitable to create
well
unless the space tourism business kicks off
:p
then it'd be beneficial to not require resources being brought up from the surface
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
@user400654 Well, presumably the people traveling on the generation ship financed it. It's hard to imagine any business or government financing an operation that won't return any profits for many centuries.
 
user400654
user400654
10:24 PM
sure... though i'd argue that such technology would require generations worth of development
so... it'd require people willing to foot the bill for things that they'll have no hope of ever seeing
not impossible
and a good bit of the technology is already being explored
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
We don't yet know how to make a closed ecology for a space habitat, or a spaceship on a long-term mission. There have been a couple of experiments along those lines, in particular, the Biosphere projects. But they didn't work too well...
 
user400654
user400654
well, for example, the ISS is helping push along the development of water/waste management
and growing things in 0g
or, micro-gravity
etc
 
Rob
Rob
You'd need a ship like the Valley Forge, that could travel faster than light (currently not foreseen to ever be practical):
 
user400654
user400654
eh, the faster than light requirement would only be a requirement if you couldn't bring everything you needed with you to "survive" the journey
which... is currently a problem ofc
 
DavidPostill
DavidPostill
@user400654 Yeah, right. "The poop is sealed inside a plastic bag and hauled off the next space trash day" Sounds like it gets dumped (pun intended)!
 
Rob
Rob
10:29 PM
Better than being recycled!
They recycle the water.
 
DavidPostill
DavidPostill
@Rob s/water/urine/
 
Rob
Rob
Yes
 
user400654
user400654
that's more what i meant. they're finding ways to make the resources they have last longer
in one way or another
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
@Rob As I said earlier, you can make the travel time as short as you like, without having to invoke physics beyond the current paradigm (like space folding, or warp bubbles). But it just costs a lot of energy.
 
user400654
user400654
or be of use longer
even if not being re-used for the same purpose
 
Feeds
Feeds
10:32 PM
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
A common phrase in space exploration is "the tyranny of the rocket equation". Unless your ship has some way of harvesting fuel & reaction mass while it's on its journey, the bulk of your ship's mass has to be fuel & reaction mass.
But even if you had some amazing tech that allowed you to beam energy to the ship, and it could turn that energy directly into kinetic energy, without needing reaction mass to chuck out the back of the ship, it's still very expensive to go fast for an extended period of time.
 
Rob
Rob
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
Let's say you have a ship that can accelerate continuously at 1 g (standard Earth gravity). That's convenient, because the passengers will experience normal gravity. When you're halfway to the destination, you flip the ship over, and decelerate at 1 g, so you have a low speed when you get to the destination. In less than a year, you're moving at a considerable fraction of lightspeed, relative to Earth.
This classic Usenet Physics article, The Relativistic Rocket goes into the details. With such a ship you can cross the galaxy in around a dozen years, ship time. But it requires a lot of fuel.
 
ArtOfCode
ArtOfCode
10:53 PM
also maintaining 1g acceleration at relativistic speeds is hard
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
That article assumes you have an ideal antimatter powered engine. But a couple of years ago, I did the calculations for how much energy you'd need if you could beam the energy to the ship, like I described a few messages back. IIRC, to power a 15,000 ton ship that continuously accelerates at 1 g for a year, Earth time, uses about as much energy as human activity currently consumes in the form of electricity and fossil fuels.
@ArtOfCode Sort of. If your engine produces enough thrust to create 1 g, then it doesn't matter what speed you're going relative to Earth. It'll still feel like 1 g to the passengers.
 
ArtOfCode
ArtOfCode
@PM2Ring yeah, but that's a big ole "if" when you're already moving at an appreciable fraction of c
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
@ArtOfCode If it takes A units of fuel per ton of ship mass to produce 1g when you're doing a low speed it will still take A units of fuel per ton of ship mass when you're doing 0.99c.
However, accelerating at 1 g when you're at 0.99c will barely make a difference to your speed. But that doesn't really matter.
 
ArtOfCode
ArtOfCode
@PM2Ring assuming that power output increases at the same rate as velocity, which is not the case for most modern propulsion... if you come up with something that does that, yeah.
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
11:09 PM
@ArtOfCode No, I'm assuming the power output is constant. And I'm also using the modern convention of rest mass, not relativistic mass.
 
ArtOfCode
ArtOfCode
I think we're meaning something different by power output... eh
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
Of course, in a real ship, the ship gets lighter as it goes. Unless it can somehow harvest fuel & reaction mass as it goes.
@ArtOfCode Perhaps. Consider the law of conservation of momentum. If you chuck out reaction mass with momentum p, the ship will get kicked forward with the same momentum p.
FWIW, here's an answer I wrote a few years ago that derives the motion of an ideal antimatter engine. To keep things simple, the engine & ship have zero mass. We only consider the mass of the fuel, and we don't eject any solid matter, only photons. physics.stackexchange.com/a/345492/123208
 
Rob
Rob
11:24 PM
A trip to Mars is unlikely before 2033 and expected to take a couple of hundred days: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mission_to_Mars Going to Pluto is almost 3500 days: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploration_of_Pluto#New_Horizons but there are plans to send sugar cube sized craft to the nearest planet (~20 years away @ 20% light speed): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Starshot#StarChip
 
PM 2Ring
PM 2Ring
11:47 PM
@Rob The table in the Breakthrough Starshot article is a bit wonky. The text says "it would take between twenty to thirty years to complete the journey, and approximately four years for a return message from the starship to Earth", but the table gives times >100 years to go to Proxima Centauri or the main Alpha Centauri stars. And a much shorter time to go to Sirius, which is about twice as far as Alpha Centauri.
 
Rob
Rob
11:58 PM
The accuracy of Wikipedia, welcomes your edits.
 
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