Tavern on the Meta

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

12:26 AM

@JNat Cross-site spammer: stackexchange.com/users/11782493/bertrand2222

(edited to remove one since they made legitimate posts on a different site)

Rob

12:55 AM

TUL: possessedbycaffeine.com/pimpjuice-purple-label-2

Shadow9

7:01 AM

@Rob you need to clear your cache then, and you'll see Gravatars again. Until its next crash, in 6-8 hours/days/weeks at most.

avazula

shouldiblamecaching.com

Shadow9

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog it's case by case, can't give definitive answer. What change you have in mind?

@avazula exactly! And talking about caching, you found a cache of your tattoo(s)? ;)

avazula

@Shadow9 I haven't. I left, I had to sign my sales agreement yesterday evening

I posted a drawing of (some of) them though :)

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shadow9 I have two changes in mind. But first, an example case to better illustrate my point: say a new feature change is rolled out in May 2015, but the deployment of the feature contains a bug that causes it to not work in most cases; that bug is fixed in September 2017. I can do one of three things: 1. list May 2015 as the date it was deployed (technically true, but not really), 2. list September 2017 as the date (really "true" but not technically so), or...

Shadow9

@avazula :(

Magisch

7:09 AM

morning

Shadow9

What did you sell? @avazula

@Magisch good?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

3. list the feature deployment at May 2015 but indicate in the entry that it didn't actually work, and add a second entry at September 2017 saying that the bug was fixed at that time (my preferred option, but goes against your advice of not listing bug fixes).

Magisch

@Shadow9 ok-ish morning

road is dangerous today, iced over

Shadow9

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog hmm... borderline case, so yeah think #3 is the best choice of those.

avazula

@Shadow9 Bought, actually. I'm buying a house! :)

Shadow9

7:12 AM

@Magisch ouch... here in Israel the cold wave is finally over, now we're back to warm-ish winter day. (19 degrees celcius)

@avazula oh wow, that's a big step! So, mortgage?

I wonder if people can start GoFundMe for buying house.... ;)

avazula

@Shadow9 For 25 years, yea! x)

Shadow9

ugh.... well guess it's the standard? Here 20 years or so is common.

JAD

here it's 30 years :o

Shadow9

You have mortgage insurance as well? @avazula

@JAD well, it can reach even more, all depends what you take and in which bank.

avazula

I wanted a small monthly reimbursement (< 1000eur /month) so I went for 25 years

JAD

7:14 AM

@Shadow9 I've seen products like that here. It allows people to chip in, and in turn you get a lower interest rate or something

avazula

@Shadow9 Yup! Can't buy without those over here.

Shadow9

@avazula small? heh.... here 1000 euro is considered a LOT. :)

(it's half the average salary)

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shadow9 Here's one of the specific examples: in March 2016, the duplicate banner notice was changed from "this question has been asked before and already has an answer" to "this question was marked as an exact duplicate of an existing question" if the target question was unanswered. However, the original change checked the closed duplicate question for unanswered-ness instead of the target, so it never worked correctly. Later, in May 2018, that bug was fixed.

JAD

@Shadow9 nah, it's not really. 30 years is like 95%+ of what's sold here. Reason for that is that you can deduct interest paid on mortgages from your taxes, but only for 30 years. That also means that it's kinda silly to have a mortgage for shorter than 30 years.

Shadow9

@avazula good! :)

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

7:16 AM

The intentional feature was rolled out in March 2016, but the true spirit of the feature was never properly realized until May 2018. Relevant Meta post

JAD

@Shadow9 what kind of risk does that insure?

Shadow9

@JAD lol, nice!

@JAD that you won't be able to pay the debt anymore, e.g. losing your job and not being able to find a new one. Guess it's tricky behind the scenes, e.g. if one just becomes lazy and quit they won't get the insurance money, just in case of major injury, sickness, etc. (and of course death)

avazula

@JAD Death, illness, unability to work ...

Nicolas Raoul

Hi all!
When are the Community Promotion Ads expected?
In 2019 the posts appeared in January :-)

JAD

but a LOT of those rules are legacy from before the 2007 financial crisis. Before than, zero-payment mortgages were very popular. The idea is as follows: you pay interest, but you don't pay anything else, so the principal debt will remain the same. The motto of that product was more or less "that's a problem we'll fix in 30 years".

it's kinda mind-boggling if you look at it now

Shadow9

7:19 AM

@NicolasRaoul In 2019 there were twice the CMs we now have.

So I won't hold my breath.... it might even be aborted. @Catija can you give some info about Community Promotion Ads please? Thanks! :)

avazula

@Shadow9 In here it's 2/3 of the minimal salary

Nicolas Raoul

I can do the posts if needed ^_^

Magisch

@NicolasRaoul don't know if they're still doing them, a few CMs are no longer here

Shadow9

@Magisch few no longer here, few moved to different positions, etc.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@NicolasRaoul An SE employee needs to connect the meta post to the ad system behind the scenes, so simply creating a meta post tagged community-ads will not initiate the actual program.

Magisch

7:21 AM

@JAD the idea was that by paying interest only the house value will appreciate so much that you can sell the house when you move, pay off the mortgage and make a profit

Nicolas Raoul

Understood, thanks all! :-)

Shadow9

@JAD yup. People just don't think far enough.

@avazula oh wow, nice.

@NicolasRaoul cheers! Do you prefer tea, or coffee?

Magisch

This went further into negative amortizing interest only adjustable rate mortgages, e.g mortgages that would start out with interest only payments of 3.5% or so and then increase to 7-9% after 2-3 years, at which point the principal balance would grow every month even with payments, the idea again being that you can sell off the house at a profit due to price increases

JAD

@Magisch pretty much

Nicolas Raoul

@Shadow9 Despite being a Java programmer I drink neither lol

Shadow9

7:23 AM

!!/Java for Nicolas

SmokeDetector

@Shadow9 No such command 'java'.

avazula

@NicolasRaoul hot cocoa then?

Shadow9

:(

JAD

but it sucks if you're suddenly forced to sell when the market is on a downturn, since you have 0 equity built up

Shadow9

Sorry @Nic no Java from our barbot.

@JAD tru dat

Nicolas Raoul

7:26 AM

!!/brownie for Nicolas

SmokeDetector

@NicolasRaoul Brown!

Magisch

the idea they sold to people is that they could pocket the difference between the 7% interest and the rate of appreciation of the house

this works as long as house prices appreciate 10%+ every year

avazula

@Magisch 7%? My mortgage will have a rate of 1,4% tops!

JAD

which they seem to be doing right now

that was before the crisis

Magisch

@avazula yeah, the mortgage market is different in america

a colleague of mine was able to lock in 1.1% for 20 years

avazula

7:38 AM

That's low

@Mag you're still planning to buy?

Magisch

I never planned to buy

I'm still planning to move to scotland pending a sensible resolution to brexit

saving for that

JAD

I got 1.94% for 10 years only half a year ago :'(

avazula

Oh right I remember that

Shadow9

@Magisch how much you need to save? Can't you just take a loan and move now?

Magisch

How brexit plays out is a big factor in if I'm moving at all

if the UK goes down the drain or has to make super bad concessions to the US in a trade deal I might not want to move, thats why I'm waiting

and I'm not particularly cutting back to save for that, I'm just saving in general right now

Shadow9

7:46 AM

plz-delete website shortcuts @waffles

Magisch

@Shadow9 gone

Shadow9

lol the one who wasn't pinged kaboomed it ;)

(hope editing pings out clear them?)

Andras Deak

@Shadow9 I don't think it does

Rob

@Shadow9 Indeed there has been a change. What I see now is a tiny square with a red dot in the corner. If I click through on the image I go to Gravatar, when I click back it retains the Gravatar image until I reload the page. Not that it's "better", but it's no worse, and different from before. (Something changed).

Mithical

8:11 AM

@Shadow9 it does not

Shadow9

8:22 AM

@Mithical :(

@Rob lol... so Gravatar is almost as weird as it's bad....

Sounds like they use CDN based on location, and something there is borked.

Rob

It's not fixed (different) in the chat, but it is different on Meta.

Shadow9

If you go directly to the image, do CTRL+F5, then go back and again CTRL+F5?

Rob

Mobile KBD, no CTRL. 💥

Shadow9

ohhh so maybe it's your browser to blame. :P

Rob

So the image is no longer "broken", instead it's replaced.

Gimby

8:33 AM

I see the mystery of the missing avatars continues

Shadow9

chicken was more fun

Rob

But the image in chat isn't (yet) fixed, it shows the ALT text IF the user's name is extremely short (example, user "canon") otherwise it doesn't show the ALT text (or the replaced image, either way) and simply shows the user's name (truncated, as before).

Shadow9

8

Q: Some users' chat icons are sometimes displaying as default gravatar depending on size

In Ask Ubuntu chat, there are some users (e.g. cl-netbox and Thomas Ward) of which the user icon is recently displaying wrongly most of the time: cl-netbox' icon on all sites id a blue square with the white letters cl. It shows up this way in the user list on the right and even in the popup ...

Gimby

@Shadow9 chickens are always more fun.

John Dvorak

You mean Cuccos

Gimby

8:44 AM

Both, Cuccos are wannabee chickens.

Rob

@Shadow9 Turkey is way more fun. Raise your arm in a turkey barn and the ones nearest you gobble - then the ones next to them gobble, then ones further away gobble, until it goes to the back of the barn, then it comes back - like an echo. A weird turkey gobble echo wave.

@JohnDvorak You mean Cuoco:

Kaley Cuoco

Kaley Christine Cuoco ( KWOH-koh; Italian: [ˈkwɔːko]; born November 30, 1985) is an American actress and producer. After a series of supporting film and television roles in the late 1990s, she landed her breakthrough role as Bridget Hennessy on the ABC sitcom 8 Simple Rules, on which she starred from 2002 to 2005. Thereafter, Cuoco appeared as Billie Jenkins on the final season of the television series Charmed (2005–2006). She has also starred as Penny on the CBS sitcom The Big Bang Theory (2007–2019), for which she has received Satellite, Critics' Choice, and People's Choice awards. Cuoco's film...

John Dvorak

who?

Gimby

that girl from that show about nerds

JAD

jeez, that show went on for 12 seasons? o.O

Journeyman Geek

grumbles about cultural misappropriation 😁

Rob

8:53 AM

@JohnDvorak her.

John Dvorak

ah, thanks

Rob

🌝

BlueSoul

@JAD yep, 12 seasons, progressively getting worse and worse as characters were flanderized and the original message twisted.

avazula

@BlueSoul flanderized?

As in Ned Flanders? :D

Rob

Flannel?

John Dvorak

8:57 AM

Shadow9

@Rob tell that to balpha

BlueSoul

> The act of taking a single (often minor) action or trait of a character within a work and exaggerating it more and more over time until it completely consumes the character. Most always, the trait/action becomes completely outlandish and it becomes their defining characteristic.

Shadow9

@JAD pfft... not even nearing the Simpsons

Mithical

Stupid sexy Flanders!

BlueSoul

and yes, the name is based on Flanders.

> The trope is named for one of the examples in The Simpsons, Ned Flanders, who was originally just a considerate neighbor and attentive father, with his devout nature simply being that he willingly attended and paid attention in church, all to make him a contrast to Homer, before becoming obsessively religious.

Rob

8:59 AM

It is flannel, which she often wears.

John Dvorak

wouldn't that be flannelization?

@Rob well plaid, sir. Well plaid.

Mithical

@BlueSoul isn't he literally the Devil

John Dvorak

Well, in one episode...

BlueSoul

@Mithical only in an Halloween episode I fear.

John Dvorak

avazula

9:04 AM

Huh, I can recall of another shape of Satan Flanders

Oh right. Treehouse of horror IV and XVIII.

Rob

I'm still wondering exactly what "action or trait of a character within a work" was exaggerated over time, thus consuming the character. Each seemed different, especially from prior roles (3's Company, Rockford, etc.). Within the show each seemed to move away rather than towards their beginnings.

Rob

9:34 AM

@YaakovEllis, thanks for the fix; it's a reasonable compromise. For a real fix: The Gravatar FAQ is unclear about downloading the image and replacing them with an Imgur hosted version (by running a script on the server) but the auto-generated algorithm is known, so SE could generate the image locally and swap them out; that doesn't assist with the small (but

significant) number of users with custom uploaded Gravatar images.

Fixed good enough, for now. Over the past decade there have been quite a few complaints about the service (and breakage). Probably SE's primary concern today is user privacy (and maintaining control of it), rather than passing it out to FB, or Gravatar, etc.

BlueSoul

@Rob Which show? Are we still talking about Big Bang Theory?

Rob

Thanks again.

@BlueSoul, to which did you refer?

I never watched BBT.

Yaakov Ellis

@Rob (but I didn't fix anything, it just started working again on it's own)…um…I mean…thanks, yeah I spent a ton of time on that, important that my gravatar is seen as widely as possible XD

Shadow9

@YaakovEllis it's not in your hands, pretty sure of that - it's something on Gravatar's side.

Rob

The recurring themes and elements appear to have an ending.

Yaakov Ellis

9:46 AM

@Rob yeah. It is something that will go on a list. There are so many things to do though, phasing out gravatar is somewhat low in the priority compared to other things coming up

Rob

@YaakovEllis It is "different", and not really "fixed" (by most definitions); but it's an acceptable compromise, as to Dev's time / cost / etc. As for "seeing your Gravatar", well that's a bust:

Magisch

@YaakovEllis did you finish your proposal for the serial voting stuff yet?

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch not yet

got pulled off to other things in the middle of it

Gimby

investigating into gravatars and stuff.

Magisch

ah

let me know how it shakes out when you submit it and get feedback (if you're able to share anything)

yesterday another aspect of the whole issue came up, namely people who have misgivings with chat rooms allowing vote or attention requests because they could seem like voting rings, which is currently not police-able

I had to think about that that concern too would be solved by better handling tools for mods to get to the bottom of voting rings

Rob

10:02 AM

A bust (your avatar looks different now):

Yaakov Ellis

Gimby

@Magisch Better in chat than say on discord, at least here it's in the public eye. It is sort of policeable now with the availability of transcripts.

Magisch

@Rob pun so flat it could have come from me ;)

Christine Cooper

Greeeetings!

Do we have anyone here who is an admin of an active discord server and has knowledge about the general tools available for admins?

Magisch

@ChristineCooper In which specific way? Are you looking for channel configurations, codecs and group settings or moderation tools?

Christine Cooper

10:12 AM

I have a few general questions about it, if anyone here is an admin on discord servers.

Magisch

Got bigger then I thought it would, no need to keep that here.

Mithical

11:09 AM

@ChristineCooper What kind of questions? I have admin access on a few servers, but I'm not really an expert at using the tools

Yaakov Ellis

@Gimby also, there are replies here. Discord…ugh

Magisch

11:35 AM

discord is a different type of chat platform

I like it for a more social use case with my friends and family, but I don't have it at work (unlike chat)

terdon

Sigh. I still think the SE chat platform is hands down the best chat system I have ever used.

Largely for the ability to reply to specific messages combined with the blissful absence of animations, colors or emoticons.

Magisch

I really like SE chat too

if it was a freeware software I'd use it

terdon

Best. Chat. System. Evah.

Well, OK, not on mobile. But still.

Magisch

it's perfect for a grump like me

I don't like too many flashy effects

terdon

Yep.

And most systems out there, like discord or slack or whatever, have all the flashy effects and yet lack the one thing that actually makes communication easier: the ability to reply to specific messages!

FFS! That should be step one in a chat system. But no, instead, we need animated demented yellow faces grinning at us, or a shit icon with buzzing flies. Because those really improve our ability to have a discussion.

JAD

11:45 AM

@terdon 👌👌

@terdon discord allows you to quote a message, which is kinda similar

terdon

I blame the millennials! :P

JAD

(not sure if it sends a notification though)

Magisch

I really wish discord had threaded messages with jump points

terdon

@JAD Not quite though. And even that is a bit tricky.

Magisch

also, discord does not allow me to opt out of specific group pings

only out of @everyone and @here

terdon

11:47 AM

also,I have that great extension that makes the original message appear in a popup when you hover over the arrow that indicates a reply. That and the one that lets me use : and the up arrow to select what I want to reply to make the SE system very, very efficient for me.

Magisch

extension or userscript

JAD

that does sound neat

terdon

@Magisch Yes, that's so annoying. I have to mute every bloody channel manually. And I seem to be added to every available channel. So finding the one that's making noises at me is hard.

@JAD You don't have these? One is discontinued, I think, but I can give you the code.

Ah, looks like this one should include most of the things I mentioned:

66

Q: SE Chat Modifications -- Keyboard navigation and commands for chat

Screenshot Use /command shortcuts to perform common chat tasks: See message history inline: Easily preview replied-to messages: And much, much more... About Legends tell of a prolific Meta Stack Overflow chatter who despised using their mouse above all things. In an effort to keep t...

script chat

The one I use is this, but for some reason I only seem to be able to find it on a chinese website now. It used to be in the chromstore:

gugeapps.net/webstore/detail/chat-reply-helper-for-sta/…

Gimby

I have an honest noob question that I forgot to ask yesterday when Rob was posting all his gravatar grievance proof: how are the images uploaded to stack imgur and then displayed here in chat? I checked the help but there does not seem to be any mention of it. I guess you can upload the images manually somewhere?

Magisch

there's an "upload" button in chat

next to the send button

Gimby

11:56 AM

Ah, therein lies the problem then. No such button for me :)

I think I'm too low on the foodchain.

Mithical

It disappears if you type something.

Gimby

No it's never there, maybe because I have <100 rep on MSE

Mithical

Ah, yeah. Just checked, you do need 100 rep.

meta.stackexchange.com/help/privileges/chat-rooms

Gimby

I made the mistake of downvoting two answers, so now I'm a nobody.

rene

no problem, I downvote the rest of your posts ...

Gimby

11:59 AM

uh, thanks?

rene

yw

@Gimby you can still upload an image in a normal post and then paste the imgur url here. That basically has the same effect.

Gimby

Or I could just upload them to normal imgur :)

rene

the chat image uploader didn't receive the love it deserved

Shadow9

status-not-enough-resources

rene

@Gimby true, but then it is not in the stack.imgur collection

Shadow9

12:03 PM

Maybe @Yaakov can pull something up when having some time... the chat image upload needz sum luv

;)

I assume plain copy&paste won't work, otherwise balpha would have done it while working on the chat.

Journeyman Geek

@Gimby for desktop chat there's an upload option

Shadow9

@rene so? It's not like we have any control or even tracking in that collection. It's impossible to know who uploaded what.

Journeyman Geek

its not there on mobile

rene

@Shadow9 so if imgur ever goes belly up Stack still have the images (as they are backed up, I believe weekly)

Shadow9

hmm... any point editing this old question and posting up-to-date answer?

Or just close it as "Can no longer be reproduced" since the whole thing changed very drastically over the years?

Journeyman Geek

12:07 PM

I would say post a new answer

Shadow9

@rene for some reason I doubt imgur will "go belly up" before SE.

It's much more... stable. Company-wise.

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow9 eh kinda sorta.

Shadow9

@JourneymanGeek question contains quote that doesn't exist anymore too

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow9 Parts of SE cost money.

:D

Mithical

12:20 PM

@rene On the other hand, it does automatically shrink images. Which the main one doesn't.

user1306322

do you think there is a chance that questions about Discord management and administration could deserve its own SE site if they were still creating new ones?

or would it be a natural fit on WebApps perhaps

idk about SU, maybe there

rene

@user1306322 webapps seems ok for that I think.

Shadow9

@Mithical it does when you copy&paste image - if it's heavy .png, it will auto convert to JPG.

(it's all on imgur side, nothing SE is doing, afaik)

user1306322

pngs above 1 megabyte iirc get converted into jpegs even if the max file size is normally 5mb

Shadow9

Yup

user1306322

12:25 PM

imgur hates pngs

Shadow9

Not ideal, but it works.

user1306322

also 4k screenshots

Shadow9

@user1306322 because they take tons more disk space, and only few people ever notice the difference in quality.

Journeyman Geek

>_>

they arn't that big

Shadow9

1 mega PNG can usually be converted to 100-200 kb JPG, from own experience.

Gimby

12:26 PM

It was mostly curiosity, I don't really have a burning desire to upload images to chat ;) But once in a blue moon such things are useful.

Shadow9

That's about 80% gain of disk space, and for imgur it means saving millions of dollars.

imgur is just greedy

Who isn't?

I'm not

Prove

12:28 PM

I keep those 1mb pngs on my hard drive all day!

I don't convert them!

Shadow9

lol

But if I send you 1000 pngs, 10 MB each?

Will you still keep them all?

user1306322

maybe

send them and I'll see what's in em

Shadow9

See? You're greedy too.

;)

user1306322

I'm not greedy, I just don't have the space right now

Shadow9

@user1306322 sure you want to know? :D

user1306322

12:30 PM

if it's the same images all over again, it's not gonna take up much space

Shadow9

opening folder "never-open-unless-you-really-really-really-need-to"

user1306322

imagine the savings they get with all the reposted meme images

Shadow9

@user1306322 think they really do this?

user1306322

absolutely, memes are reposted sooooooooo often

Shadow9

But if I change a pixel, what happens?

user1306322

12:31 PM

that's still like 98% repeated content, it's gonna archive very well

Shadow9

@Sonic once delivered me a message through a picture. ;)

user1306322

anonymous accounts only get 50 images total on imgur btw, if you upload 51st image, your 1st will be removed

Shadow9

@user1306322 huh. So there's image rot, that's a huge reason not to use imgur to post on SE.

user1306322

not on anonymous accounts for sure

if you log in, at least you get some reasonable limit

these days tho you need to "prove you're a human" by giving them your active cell phone number for free so they can sell it to marketers

Shadow9

@user1306322 whaaaaaat..... who they think they are? Google? lol

I gave my phone number only to Google since it controls my phone anyway.

Also Twitter, but just because I'm lazy, and it looked like logging in with phone number was easier.

But all the others.... forget about it. :D

user1306322

12:36 PM

never had a twitter account in my life

or facebook for that matter

Shadow9

So how people send you messages?!

user1306322

phone texts and gmail

rene

smoke

Shadow9

So... primitive....

user1306322

nah don't smoke :p

vape signals are all the rage these days

or were a couple years ago

I usually just talk to people on the phone or in person when I need something

Shadow9

12:39 PM

user1306322

chat messaging even though it's fast is still too slow

Shadow9

And yes, it's PNG! ;)

@user1306322 but it's possible to avoid if one is busy or just don't feel like being bothered.

Phone call is harder to ignore/delay.

And rejecting a phone call is... rude. Most of the times. :)

user1306322

well, I don't usually bother people without business and neither do they, so we kinda have a good system for that already

Shadow9

hehe. Good!

user1306322

if it's important they'll call again

well, I gotta dry my hair and go get two bowls of soup, one for now and one for later

Shadow9

12:47 PM

@user1306322 hope your hair isn't wet with soup..... ;)

Cya later, bon appetite!

(I also had only soup for lunch, but only because the pita bread was burned in the oven and it was the last pita)

Gimby

Hey, soup can be quite filling.

it's a pretty good lunch IMO.

Shadow9

@Gimby sure, but it's mostly in my head that I should have more to eat. :/

djsmiley2k TMW

@Shadow9 that's a real p.i.t.a.

</dad joke>

Shadow9

That's the soup I had:

Gimby

Ah... not fresh soup. That's slightly different.

Shadow9

12:52 PM

@Mith you also eat such soup sometimes? ^^

@Gimby it's in the middle... it has home-made taste, and has no preservatives, etc.

Mithical

Sometimes those ramen noodle things

Shadow9

Me too! They're also yummy.

@djsmiley2kTMW rofl

rene

@Shadow9 home-made taste ... just like smoke taste ... thekitchn.com/liquid-smoke-what-is-it-70099

Shadow9

@rene hehe. Smokey would love it!

!!/smoke

SmokeDetector

@Shadow9 No such command 'smoke'.

Shadow9

1:02 PM

:(

BlueSoul

Sonic the movie reviews are start popping up on various sites.

And... you kinda can see which ones were paid for.

Gimby

The movie looks like it's fun, but I am kind of fearing all the fun bits have actually been shown in the trailers

Shadow9

1:22 PM

@JNat long time no cross site troll... thanks!

Rob

1:34 PM

@YaakovEllis it's back to broken. ¯\_༼ •́ ͜ʖ •̀ ༽_/¯

Yaakov Ellis

not my fault

Rob

!!/blame

SmokeDetector

@Rob It's Rubiksmoose's fault.

Magisch

aha

Rob

You're off the hook then.

JAD

1:46 PM

@Rob gotta escape backslashes ¯\(°_o)/¯

Journeyman Geek

>_>

No point having power if you can't abuse it for awesome

Shadow9

2:04 PM

@Rob sure? Let's check again

!!/blame Yaakov

SmokeDetector

@Shadow9 It's Andras Deak's fault.

Shadow9

hmm

Rob

There's enough to spread around.

terdon

@Shadow9 Is Hebrew written under a line? I mean, is it the tops of all the letters that are aligned when writing, like in Sanskrit, or the bottom like in most (all?) European languages?

Rob

!!/blame He whom shall remain blameless!

SmokeDetector

2:08 PM

@Rob It's Yaakov Ellis's fault.

Rob

Worked that time.

terdon

2:30 PM

@Rob s/whom/who/ :)

I think. Crap. Now I confused myself.

What the hell is the object there?

Nah, it's who. It's the subject. Phew!

Rob

2:58 PM

We don't know which "he", so it can be whom:

Who (pronoun)

The pronoun who, in English, is an interrogative pronoun and a relative pronoun, used chiefly to refer to humans. Its derived forms include whom, an objective form whose use is now generally confined to formal English; the possessive form whose; and the indefinite form whoever (also whosoever, whom(so)ever, and whos(eso)ever; see also -ever). == Etymology == The word who derives from the Old English hwā. The spelling who does not correspond to the word's pronunciation /huː/; it is the spelling that represents the expected outcome of hwā, while the pronunciation represents a divergent outcome –...

149

Q: What’s the rule for using “who” and “whom” correctly?

I can never figure out whether I should use who and whom. Most people use who for both colloquially, but some people say this is not correct. What’s the rule for using who and whom correctly?

pronouns grammatical-case relative-pronouns questions whom

terdon

@Rob It doesn't matter. The who here is the subject, so it can't be whom.

Anyway, that's basically obsolete in English. It is never a mistake to use who, but it can be a mistake to use whom. So it's better not to use whom at all.

curious

→ 34 messages moved to Chimney

Rob

🦉

BlueSoul

🦄 all your base are belong to us 🦄

^ @YaakovEllis

Shadow9

3:14 PM

@terdon it's just the graphic design of the product, got nothing to do with Hebrew... it's written Right-to-Left but nothing about vertical alignment of letters. Maybe this will be more clear:

:)

terdon

@Shadow9 So how is the script anchored then? By the top or the bottom? When children learn how to write, do they draw a line and place the letters on the line, or do they hang the letters under it?

Shadow9

@terdon hmm... lol... totally forgot! Yes we do have those notebooks with lines, and yes at first we write inside the lines, but isn't it the standard for any language?

(just that the writing won't be all messed up, regardless of language)

terdon

@Shadow9 Some languages are written under the line and others above it. So some have the tops of the letters aligned with the line and others have the bottom of the letters. That's what I was wondering.

For instance, in Sanskrit scripts, all the letters have a line above them and you write them by drawing the line first and then "hanging" the letter under it.

Shadow9

@terdon oh... you mean the letters themselves! No, no such thing in Hebrew. Each letter is different, as far as I can tell.

Some have upper line.. some don't have.

BlueSoul

@Shadow9 #stillbetterthankanji

Shadow9

3:25 PM

e.g. in Aleph there's no line, neither top nor bottom.

JAD

not sure if that's entirely the question. there is no uniform line in latin script either, but letters are aligned on the bottom of the letters, with only some exceptions sticking out below, like pqyj.

terdon

@JAD Exactly. And even those are written with the bottom part of the main body of the letter (minus the swinging tail) aligned to the line you're writing on.

JAD

so when you write in a lined notebook, letters sit on top of the line, not hang below

Shadow9

ugh.... transparency... here it is with white background:

waffles! never mind it doesn't work

terdon

So I was wondering if in Hebrew you write above the line or below it.

Shadow9

3:30 PM

Still not sure what you ask.... but here's the list of letters:

Hope it's more clear now? :)

terdon

@Shadow9 If you were to write something by hand on a notebook with normal lines on it, would you place the bottom of your letters on the line or the top? This is what it looks like if you place them on the bottom: