Tavern on the Meta

3:09 AM

Was edict the intended word, from Wikipedia, the last well known edict:

The Imperial Reform Edict (Ottoman Turkish: اصلاحات خط همايونى‎, Islâhat Hatt-ı Hümâyûnu; Modern Turkish: Islâhat Fermânı) was a February 18, 1856 edict of the Ottoman government and part of the Tanzimat reforms. The decree from Ottoman Sultan Abdulmejid I promised equality in education, government appointments, and administration of justice to all regardless of creed. The decree is often seen as a result of the influence of France and Britain, which assisted the Ottoman Empire against the Russians during the Crimean War (1853–1856) and the Treaty of Paris (1856) which ended the war. Hatt-ı Hümayun...

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5:45 AM

Podcast: Make my Monolith a Micro

Ben Popper on February 11, 2020

Sara returns from Miami. The crew chats about Monoliths vs microservices and the lessons we’ve learned as manager and ICs.

Shadow9

7:15 AM

@It'sOver put some in your shoes to keep it warm then. ;)

rene

→ 12 messages moved to Chimney

Mithical

gone

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Spam account: meta.stackexchange.com/users/702452/ednafilo652

Rob

7:34 AM

Warmer weather coming for Iran: accuweather.com/en/ir/tabriz/207308/daily-weather-forecast/… but still quite cold.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Glorfindel Smokey was briefly down

Glorfindel

ah, thx

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

7:55 AM

@JourneymanGeek Another spam account: meta.stackexchange.com/users/702474/tekatekilucu

Shadow9

8:07 AM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog sure he's fine with the pings?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shadow9 He has a Smokey feed, but as I said earlier, Smokey was down and the account I reported made a spam post that was never reported.

Shadow9

OK, your call. Just worried a bit. (Angry Journey isn't a good idea ;))

BlueSoul

@user1306322 The vg cat comics? I think that scene is a reference to something from Visitor. But I am not sure

Magisch

8:26 AM

What percentage of mods did actually resign in the two big waves?

relevant because I'm proposing a candidate question on TWP with the number as context

rene

@Magisch less then 10% ... but I don't have actual numbers

Magisch

really less then 10% like 60 some mods resigned

would mean we have over 600 network mods

BlueSoul

morning btw. Any news of those elections?

Shadow9

170+ sites, so yeah 600 isn't that big a number.

SE is evil

@Magisch it was almost 600 as far as I remember

Yaakov Ellis

8:34 AM

@SEisevil there was bidirectionality on this

@SEisevil in this case, what is the type of communication that would make you happy?

Magisch

@BlueSoul question collection on twp has launched

SE is evil

@YaakovEllis Take my meta post as an immediate impression of the FAQ meta post, it isn't necessarily accurate, but that is mostly because I can't see the stuff behind the curtain anymore, and because the announcement was kinda odd. The FAQ post without any context or explanation seemed rather off somehow, and the new rule itself is in part overly rigid, and in other aspects entirely unnecessary

(if you intend to work with the mods each case, this rule is entirely superfluous as long as the mods are reasonable)

BlueSoul

@Magisch I see the question you posted. Good.

rene

@Magisch I like that question, haven't voted on it as I don't want to skew results ...

Magisch

I think the situation will come up one way or another, so it'll be a benefit to prompt candidates to develop their stance on it beforehand

rene

8:47 AM

fair

Shadow9

@YaakovEllis asking for feedback from all users, not only moderators, especially in important things like policy of removing featured tags. True that only mods can add or remove them, but it also have big impact on the whole network.

True, you'll get lots of noise and angry responses, but you might also get good and valuable feedback that you won't get otherwise, and more important - the users will feel like they belong.

Magisch

what would make people happy would be a community consultation process, e.g structured rounds of public feedback, someone to summarize that feedback and the company then acting on that feedback

ideally with a process that binds the company in some parts to the outcome of the consultation. In essence people want to partake in the governance of this site

Yaakov Ellis

@Shadow9 "you'll get lots of noise and angry responses, but…" I think that you underestimate the affect of this on the people in the company who you are expecting to wade through everything in order to get the good and valuable feedback

Magisch

9:03 AM

there's not really a way to avoid getting angry responses

Yaakov Ellis

"ideally with a process that binds the company in some parts to the outcome of the consultation" sorry, but I am pretty sure that that isn't going to happen (that the company would agree apriori to be bound by the decisions of the community, no matter what they are)

Magisch

even if the company goes full-on cooperation mode it will be years if ever before they stop getting vitriol every time they show up

it's a sad state of affairs but we users aren't a homogenous group so we're not capable of coordinated mending of bridges

Yaakov Ellis

the first part, of having more of a dialog with everyone, is something that folks will hopefully be trying to do. and I know that the vitriol can't be stopped completely. But if it is the overwhelming response, it doesn't give us a way back in.

SE is evil

In this particular case I don't think the content of the new rule and the process/perception can be separated. To me the major problem is that the rule seems somewhat nonsensical, in part because it is, and also because SE never explained why this change is necessary

Magisch

@YaakovEllis I know that, but the power imbalance between company and community is a large crux of the issue. The way these sites work, the people who build and maintain them feel a sense that they should share in their governance and ownership. It means that people who put their scarce and valuable free time in expect to have a say in where it goes

BlueSoul

9:06 AM

@SEisevil bad advertisement, impact on public image. PR damage control attempt by obscurity.

Shadow9

@YaakovEllis I don't, I also hate to get negative feedback. But, that's where a CM should chime in. Someone who is in the middle, and can filter the feedback, finding the good parts.

Magisch

@YaakovEllis I agree with you, but I also don't see a way out. You, me, everyone who ever visited this chatroom could make a commitment to be friendlier and more receptive (and I advocated that on meta before and got crap for it, vis a vis) but we don't have a way to influence other people who are angry (and lord knows there are many) besides persuasion

even on my post about the subject on meta, the answers I got were overwhelmingly negative. I got accused of being an enabler of abuse, of being in a dynamic akin to an abusive relationship. People even took the time to yell at me off site about it. It convinced preciously few people, even though I used every bit of my meta experience to get the framing right. Whatever happens, if recovery is possible it'll be a long and arduous road.

sorry for the long diatribe

Yaakov Ellis

@Shadow9 yup. we are trying to work on a way to wade through stuff to get to the positive stuff

Magisch

an idea would be a sort of vote or reaction or marker on posts that were found to be constructive

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch no apology necessary. this is something that anyone from the company who is considering more meta involvement and more communication is aware of. We know that there will always be angry folks. But if that can be balanced out by those who can keep things calm, it goes a long way

@Magisch reactions hopefully coming soon

rene

9:20 AM

@Magisch That ... doesn't feel right ....

Magisch

gamification works well for incentivizing people to make good answers, why not extend that to civil feedback? This would have the additional benefit of indicating that something was listened to or read

Mithical

It... kinda seems like that was one reason we have MSE mods, no? To keep feedback constructive?

Yaakov Ellis

reactions are already on teams. Aren't gamified in any way (no badges). Just a way to show a "thanks" (or other emotion) without typing it out

Magisch

There was an overwhelmingly positive response to putting status tags into subsections of answers, for feature requests. It stands to reason that it'd be a net benefit to have something similar for posts or feedback, if nothing else it makes people more visibly feel listened to

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch "people want to partake in the governance of this site" - honestly, I don't see that happening in a complete way that will satisfy everyone. The community is not going to own the product and make all decisions for it, decide on its roadmap. However, I am really optimistic that there will be open commitments made from the company to bring the community back into the fold in terms of responsiveness, open communication and respect.

And that includes listening to ideas, treating the community as subject-matter-experts on the things that they know best, surfacing ideas before they are worked on for feedback

Magisch

9:25 AM

one thing that I noticed

Yaakov Ellis

But the days of community-as-PM that existed for years…that is kind of over

Magisch

a lot of things y'all doing had their origin as ideas on meta. It means you are to some extent listening and picking the good suggestions

making it more visible where the ideas come from would go a long way to make people feel like their feedback matters

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch understood, and I think that we are going in that direction (more visibility, and earlier in the process)

Magisch

a recent example is the retiring of the two badges. That had been brought up 4 times on meta before. I bet the reaction would have been better if that was brought forth more in framing.

Yaakov Ellis

I hear that

Magisch

9:28 AM

In my own meta posts I use this (it's not really a trick but it works like a charm) to call to previous efforts and supply justifications for my arguments from previous rounds of feedback. It's a way of using the anticipated arguments of the opposition to justify your own. If you can make your case using the arguments and language of the people you strive to convince, it works infinitely better

now I'm preaching to the choir again, sorry

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch sounds good in theory. Hard sometimes to remember every post on meta ever made though

Mithical

Psshhh, that's amateur talk. :P

Yaakov Ellis

You probably have a count somewhere of the number of features/bugs I completed that were from a few years ago that I completed only after someone pinged me on it, referred to it in a chat, or bountied it

Magisch

it's a lot of work. That kind of thing takes a lot of prep and finding. Even for someone who has a frankly unhealthy obsession with reading up on meta history like me

Yaakov Ellis

let me put something else out there: in the past six months, I have proxied comments/answers on MSE/MSO for at least 5 SO employees (probably more even) who wanted to interact, but were afraid to because of community reactions and/or previous experiences where they got badly burned from community interactions

2

rene

9:32 AM

@YaakovEllis yes, we value you for that. A lot. And we do value the CM's that are around and keep trying. A lot.

Magisch

you're a large part of why I still have a bit of hope that all this can be turned around

rene

@YaakovEllis I'm sorry to hear that and apologize. Do know that I do appreciate feedback on my blunt communication skills and adjust accordingly. I'm not here to have or make fun at the expense of others, whether they are paid of not.

Yaakov Ellis

@rene I am not implying that you are at fault. Not about anyone in particular. Just responding to the general comment above (and I have seen others in the past) of "ignore all of the flaming and negativity, and just pick out the good stuff". It is easy to say, harder when you are the target. Now, of course some of the anger is due to reactions to decisions of the company. (And some will be present anywhere because…Internet). But regardless of the cause, it is a very important factor.

rene

I understand that.

Yaakov Ellis

When you see an employee (especially one who has been negatively received in the past) posting on MSE/MSO about something that might be controversial, if you can, please consider that it is something that might not be so easy for the person

BlueSoul

9:43 AM

problem is that from the user perspective it is far simpler to single out and remember abrasive answers posted from employees than it is to notice all the rants from anonymous users on the site.

Yaakov Ellis

@BlueSoul understood. another reason why some employees posts look like they have been edited very carefully. because they have. because there is an expectation that things will be taken by some people the wrong way, and thus one has to be super diplomatic and deliberate with each word (not normally successful anyway)

As you can see, I go a different route, but it is not for most people

rene

The community is a beast that once it was cut lose hardly considers the human that is behind a contribution ...

BlueSoul

It takes a lot of "effort" to become "infamous enough" to be remembered for continuously posting undeserved insults at the staff (I, for one, can really remember just one user here on meta)

Most manage to be noticed only for a short time (unless you are a mod of course, in which case I totally expect you to start to memorize names)

Magisch

generally if your name is well known among staff that's usually not a good thing

BlueSoul

(unless you're Skeet)

Yaakov Ellis

9:47 AM

@rene yeah. So now in the context of that thoughts, consider how people take the invitation of "please communicate with us more, and more often, about everything, and listen to everything, and respond to everything". Not saying that it doesn't need to be done. Just that this is why it is hard to achieve. And especially why it is hard to restart things when they have gone wrong

Magisch

indeed

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch oh uh <yaakov hiding now>

Magisch

@YaakovEllis doesn't count if you're staff yourself

your average meta user has a problem when staff start recognizing them by name

usually negativity sticks out in the mind

rene

@YaakovEllis it is a circle, hard to break free from and that will get harder every 6 to 8 weeks ...

@Magisch that is why I remain vague, blurry if you wish.

Yaakov Ellis

@rene so then I guess that this week or next week is the best possible time to break free, considering all future times, right?

Magisch

9:51 AM

now I have "I want to break free" in my head

but yeah, the sooner the better

rene

@YaakovEllis right, as a matter of fact there is always a good time for a Queen song ....

Journeyman Geek

erf everyone seems chatty when I'm asleep, on things I apparently have an opinion or a stake in :D

Yaakov Ellis

ok everyone. JG is here. Discussion over. Go about your business

Magisch

the best time to ramp up the efforts would probably be before they organize a strike

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow9 if I'm annoyed I'll let him know. Pointedly :D

rene

9:52 AM

moving on ...

Journeyman Geek

@YaakovEllis OOI :D

I'm just annoyed I'm like the cops in the tamil movies, turning up after everything is done :D

A few observations

Magisch

I do feel bad for the MSE mods though, feels like we could probably use 3-4 more

Journeyman Geek

- Meta is hard.

Magisch

so they don't have to wade through the river of meta alone

Mithical

Are you volunteering?

Magisch

9:53 AM

I'm not a mod, hands tied

;)

Journeyman Geek

- even for meta veterans, the past 3 months have been insanely tricky and the faces and people have churned a bit, so some work needs to be re-factored

- I really want staff to be able to turn up, talk about stuff and not get treated like the enemy at least for less controversial stuff but its a little like herding porcupines.

Magisch

seriously though, I think there are better willing candidates then me, but I wouldn't say no (because doing that would be rather hypocritical considering I keep advocating for meta to control itself)

Gimby

@rene I want to ride my bicycle, I want to ride my bike. I want to ride my bicycle... but there is so much bloody wind I'd just fly off the dike!

BlueSoul

@YaakovEllis just throw a bone in Shadow's Den. Maybe he will be distracted.

rene

@Gimby You compete in the NK tegenwind fietsen omroepzeeland.nl/nieuws/118041/…

Yaakov Ellis

9:58 AM

@Magisch youtube.com/watch?v=f4Mc-NYPHaQ is that what is stuck in your head now?

Magisch

:|

Gimby

@rene Oh my god, It's actually a thing.

rene

yep

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch hence herding. You can't really control meta by force

you need to influence it :D

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek I personally think meta mods (if there were more of them) could take a far more active role in herding

Journeyman Geek

10:03 AM

@Magisch that might actually be a mistake in certain ways

its a fiercely independant lot, far worse than most communities

Magisch

any kind of moderation action is going to draw ire, but if done properly (justifying yourself exhaustively when challenged) you can actively work towards making the tone better

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch "justifying yourself exhaustively when challenged" never stops

you can tell someone precisely why they are wrong

and they will claim ignorance

Magisch

it's a lot more work then I would expect 3 people to handle, but you can use the same technique (reminding people of previous iterations and citing examples) to get buy-in for culture change that people would be otherwise angry about

Journeyman Geek

Better yet

they will let you know 12 different other ways they were wrong

and ask if that's why they were suspended

Magisch

yeah, it's exhausting and all that but what's the alternative

Journeyman Geek

10:06 AM

the most important work on meta is in the open with people willing to be constructive

Magisch

you leave the borderline-rude stuff up

and then there's the broken windows problem. When there's a lot of unsavory stuff up it starts being seen as acceptable. To break that cycle someone needs to put in the time of making it go away and then explaining why and how

ideally with some cooperation from the company (which seems to be possible, given what yaakov is attempting)

convincing everyone isn't necessary (some people argue just for fun and like to play devils advocate) but making the raw effort will convince enough people that it'll get easier over time, because the self-moderation will kick back in

BlueSoul

@JourneymanGeek go, fetch!

in Shadow's Den, 10 mins ago, by BlueSoul

🦴

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch zero tolerance is hard

especially considering a lot of the issues are well, stemming from a certain degree of tone deafness. We can try to deal with the worst of it, but trying to wipe out anything that's borderline is.... tilting at windmills

Magisch

I'll stop the backseat moderating but I think you could do well with a couple more so you can deal with more

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch I think that you would fit in quite well

Magisch

10:17 AM

iirc mse mods are recruited exclusively from existing mods

which I'm not one of

JAD

@Gimby well, it was cancelled because too much wind, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

djsmiley2k TMW

Welp, if SU ever needs a mod I'm happy to try and help

but I feel like..... I dunno, impostor syndrome maybe ?D:

Journeyman Geek

@djsmiley2kTMW hmm

between the two

Yaakov Ellis

@djsmiley2kTMW join the crowd

Journeyman Geek

SU's "easier" simply because there's almost no politics

Magisch

10:33 AM

maybe hold an election for MSE

or ask in the mod chatroom for volunteers. There's bound to be a couple in 500 some mods

djsmiley2k TMW

@YaakovEllis :D

@JourneymanGeek that's better for someone with my mindset.

Journeyman Geek

So a few things.

djsmiley2k TMW

And if you said "haha no, you're really not suitable" I won't be offended either hah

Journeyman Geek

@djsmiley2kTMW there's really more than one way to mod

at this point, I'm more of 'symbol' than a 'real' mod. I think the other mods are doing a lot more of the work on SU than I am at the moment

Even a certain somewhat... dramatic member of the community I shall not name...

could be moulded into a decent flag-processor if we can keep his worst impulses in check

and a lot of moderation is handling flags and making decisions

Winning over a community as part of moderation is hard

On SU, I have time and a cute ava.

Mithical

...here, you've just got the cute ava?

Journeyman Geek

10:43 AM

On MSE I need to deal with 1) employees who have good intentions, good actions and users who are a pain 2) employees I personally don't like but damned if I don't protect them cause they're my users too 3) 3-5 different user factions ...

4) various inscrutable forces from within and without the company

Magisch

I think what would help would be if mods collated the feedback a bit

Journeyman Geek

and a cute ava :D

@Magisch here's the tricky bit

Magisch

you know, the stingy feedback they get dozens of comments of every thread? Why not leave one up, and make a note you deleted extraneous mentions

Journeyman Geek

a lot of the decisions that you see are... seriously toned down from the original

Magisch

one big point is how even still polite but angry but numerous feedback can feel like an attack. Why not soften that a bit?

surely would be within your remit

Journeyman Geek

10:45 AM

@Magisch Well - that dosen't solve the root problem

Magisch

the root problem is a self perpetuating cycle

Journeyman Geek

and its worth considering a lot of the feedback is often from people who (tried?) to help shape it

Magisch

people are angry because they dont feel listened to stack employees dont want to come because people are angry

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch that's going to need, to some extent, a bit of a shake up of things

Magisch

yes but arguing gets you only so far

there are ways to preserve the spirit of the argument and not censor people overly while also reducing the pile on effect

Journeyman Geek

10:47 AM

oh k...

Magisch

especially in instances where employees make good faith efforts to participate

Journeyman Geek

I think I'm going to put down the moderator hat for today

I just actually accidentally deleted a post I shouldn't have, deleting a comment :D

@Magisch to be blunt...

in some cases there's probably a lot of things behind specific decisions

Gimby

@JourneymanGeek Ah well, proves you're still human.

Journeyman Geek

@Gimby I am rarely accused of that :D

Mithical

s/still human/still canine

Gimby

10:49 AM

human, doggie, all good.

user1306322

11:06 AM

@BlueSoul well, the obscurity part was more of a thing just a bit earlier, now they're starting to become less obscure and publish their internal rules more frequently

when we said "stop shooting yourself in the foot" and "be more open" we didn't mean "be more open about how you're shooting yourself in the foot", but this seems like how they read it :p

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 Its worth considering though

in these cases there's stakeholders who don't communicate with us

and are somewhat...

ineffable

user1306322

there really is a fundamental problem of not wanting to see anything negative from all sides

Journeyman Geek

One of the key reasons we need employees talking to us is, well,

they can communicate things to the less effable parts of the organisation

user1306322

there has to be a person on each side willing to "wade through negativity"

and everyone else who doesn't want to see anything negative has to trust the person who is willing to put in that effort

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 well there are

but its a lot of work

and trust is kinda in short supply, even with folks who want to make things work

user1306322

11:11 AM

they recently fired some of their main willing negativity waders :p

Journeyman Geek

Yes, that's a problem

but that's more a symptom than anything else.

Practically the community team is in the wierd place of...

1. being essential

2. Not being a revenue source

3. Not understood by many current decision makers from outside the SE community

4. Apparently lacking political protection of sorts.

But if there's a way to sort that I'd love to know

user1306322

if the company want to interface with the community, but not directly, they have to want to trust the "interfacing staff" (CMs or other trusted employees like developers maybe)

we can't make management want to trust anyone, this is not a problem we can solve

on Workplace if you post a question about "how do I make my company want to do X" what responses do you get?

find a place that already wants it because it's going to understand all the things your current place doesn't, and it's just going to be better and faster

hence alternative Q&A initiatives

as a developer I'm already used to using the best current thing, and if the old thing breaks, I'll move over to a new better working one if it takes less effort

at some point you have to remember the sunk cost fallacy and reevaluate things

user1306322

11:27 AM

@YaakovEllis what is in the list of reactions? Is there a public FAQ explaining what they're for? Are there specific reactions like "high quality" or "(dis)agree" or "needs citations" or "nice illustractions"?

last time I saw a screenshot of "clap/pray/full metal alchemist spellcasting" and "red semibold italicized 100 twice underlined" and didn't think those were particularly useful and more of a visual noise

Shadow9

@YaakovEllis meaning something automatic?

@JourneymanGeek I know too well. ;)

@user1306322 this?

If so, it's already asked for:

39

Q: What do the plans for incorporating "new ways to say thanks" look like?

A recent Tweet from @StackOverflow on Twitter said: Announcing our new reactions feature, available today on Stack Overflow for Teams for Basic and Business tiers, and coming to Enterprise in 2020. New ways of saying 'thanks' will be coming to the Stack Exchange network next year, too. ...

(Without official answer yet)

Andras Deak

12:02 PM

@JourneymanGeek I think I know which one :P

Journeyman Geek

Yup

Magisch

heh

journey making a mistake? thats impawsible

2

Gimby

Yeah that's barking up the wrong tree.

Mithical

*implawsible, but not impawssible

!!/blame᠎ ᠎‍⁠‍

SmokeDetector

@Mithical It's Journeyman Geek's fault.

Mithical

12:08 PM

See?

Yaakov Ellis

@Shadow9 no. As in a process. With people.

Magisch

there was talk about a user group for feedback some time back

not sure what the status on that is

Andras Deak

@Magisch was that the hand-picked user-group to remove natural bias?

Gimby

Status "somebody needs to decide something"

Yaakov Ellis

@user1306322 TBD what will be in. Could start small, be expanded later. Will have guidance. Yes, specific reactions. At least that is how I understand it, but I am not personally involved in the project.

Magisch

12:10 PM

@AndrasDeak don't know, I dont think we have specifics yet

just that its either not yet formed or the membership isn't public

user1306322

12:35 PM

@Shadow9 the question as posed is not what I wanted to propose to do with this feature

@YaakovEllis ok, thanks for the update

BlueSoul

Dreams should be released this week.

I am scared of what people will achieve now that the full game is available.

The beta was already quite impressive

user1306322

from the lil big planet team?

BlueSoul

yep.

been looking at some of the best creations.... there is impressive stuff

user1306322

it's gonna be interesting

Shadow9

12:50 PM

@BlueSoul it didn't even win the Golden Joystick Awards

;)

BlueSoul

@Shadow9 should it have won a prize BEFORE it was released?

I mean, there was the beta but....

Shadow9

@BlueSoul it was nominated

BlueSoul

@Shadow9 oh, well, it is not like I really care for awards. And I know people who would even buy text based games about roman legionary life

Shadow9

rofl

Actually what led me to consider is GoG email, not any award. ;)

Andras Deak

1:08 PM

@Shadow9 so you're agog

BlueSoul

@Shadow9 the excessive amount of times I mentioned "Beautiful Dreamer", the '97 game Dreams to Reality, NiGHTS and so on... should be your clue there.

Rob

2:05 PM

New carpeting, for the office?

BlueSoul

@Rob giving a new meaning to "walking on eggs"?

Shadow9

2:21 PM

@Rob pnlentrezdanslalegende.blogspot.com/2016/11/…

John Dvorak

impromptu foot massage. I like it.

Shadow9

This is the band?

PNL (band)

PNL (French pronunciation: [pe ɛn ɛl]; acronym for Peace N' Lovés, translated to Peace and Money) is a French rap group formed in 2014 by Ademo ( and N.O.S (born Nabil Andrieu, French: [nabil ɑ̃dʁijø]), from Corbeil-Essonnes, a city in the southern suburbs of Paris. Due to their success, the two brothers are seen by many as the Rap Kings of French rap and Cloud rap.. == Biography == === Early life === Tarik and Nabil Andrieu grew up in the difficult neighbourhood of Les Tarterêts in Corbeil-Essonnes, in the southern suburbs of Paris. Tarik was born in 1986, and Nabil in 1989. Their father, René...

Rob

@Shadow9 Nope, from: saramorawetz.com/walking-on-eggshells where there are more photos than that later dated webpage.

BlueSoul

took the liberty to post an "answer"

0

A: When will CMs or moderators remove the [featured] tag from actively featured meta questions?

The accepted answer says: Do not feature posts singling out users by username (or real name) without their express consent. Take special care with question titles. Posts that are about or name someone and don't have that person's prior consent will be unfeatured by Mods or CMs when the mods d...