Tavern on the Meta

Yaakov Ellis

6:00 PM

Ok, I'm back from dinner. Did I miss anything?

Magisch

the post on MSO

but you probably knew it was coming

rene

Something about post on the wrong Meta, nothing unusual or we can't handle ..

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch 😉

Magisch

I wrote an answer but might not post it

you know how you sometimes let out all of the cartharthic rants into a notepad and then don't save it

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch I know all about that

Andras Deak

6:05 PM

I don't. If I bothered typing it up I might as well post it :P

Magisch

;)

Andras Deak

then again I only have regular rants, and rarely

Yaakov Ellis

I hope y'all appreciate that the CEO is actually on meta and answering in comments. Shouldn't be taken for granted. I know that it still counts for nothing if there is no follow-through. But still…

2

terdon

@YaakovEllis absolutely. Whether we like what he has to say or not is a separate issue. The fact that he's there should be appreciated.

Andras Deak

@YaakovEllis as with the CTO's apology most people seem to cautiously take it as a step in the right direction :)

Bryan Krause

6:07 PM

@YaakovEllis We do.

Yaakov Ellis

About MSO/MSE for the post. Please don't get too hung up on it. Was deliberation and arguments made in each direction. If you don't want to reply on MSO, just reply on MSE. It will be read as well.

8

Andras Deak

I'd be surprised if there were a significant group who were hung up on that

Magisch

@YaakovEllis You can probably forgive us for not being optimistic still, but it's definitely a start.

Bryan Krause

@YaakovEllis I appreciated that it was cross-posted to MSE immediately, rather than after some uproar. Of course that won't make everyone happy but nothing ever will - it was at least apparent that there was a conversation about it.

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch I understand why it is hard to be optimistic. This is step 1 out of many. But hopefully it is a step in the right direction

Magisch

6:09 PM

If it's actually followed up on

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@YaakovEllis Can you please post that last sentence as a comment on my MSO answer?

Yaakov Ellis

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog link to answer please? I am lazy

Andras Deak

@Magisch as with the CTO's apology

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

33

A: A Note To Meta on my 2020 Kickoff Blog Post

I have a small question: why was the decision made to put the announcement here, instead of on Meta Stack Exchange? Putting it here has the effect of shutting out users who participate elsewhere in Stack Exchange, but don't participate on Stack Overflow or don't have enough reputation to qualify ...

(Sorry, I didn't read the back transcript, and thought your message was a direct result of that answer there)

Magisch

@AndrasDeak on a extremely cautiously optimistic note joel hadn't posted on meta in years

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

6:11 PM

@YaakovEllis Some context: We used to be able to get comments from the higher-up very quickly, and over the previous years we've learned to take those for granted. The fact that this is changing is unsettling to many people who want a return to those times.

Magisch

maybe the new CEO has gotten into his groove and will start a trend

not that I'll hold out hope but the good thing about rock bottom is there's not a lot farther down you can go

2

Yaakov Ellis

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog done

Andras Deak

@Magisch Or, hypothetically, following George's speculation, the new CEO has no issue saying one thing and doing another. Which we shall see of course, not trying to nay-say here.

Yaakov Ellis

@Magisch that's what we are hoping for.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@YaakovEllis Thanks!

Magisch

6:13 PM

@AndrasDeak right, we can of course assume the worst. But right now it's better to assume nothing and let his actions following speak

not like there's anything else we can really do

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Also, some general context about me: when I ask why, I'm often looking for a detailed explanation as to why exactly; many others just use that word in a not-so-literal sense, but I do often mean it literally. Just thought you'd know for future cases.

Andras Deak

@Magisch As of Shog's sacking I don't feel like I have a horse in this race. And I always like to guess. Anticipate, not assume.

Yaakov Ellis

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Change in this is in my opinion kind of inevitable. The messaging surrounding this has of course been pretty bad.

Magisch

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog We used to feel like we were on a level with the higher ups

that you could ping joel in a comment and get him to read it and reply implies a certain level of equal footing

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

At the very least it's not like some other companies (e.g. United Airlines) where emails to the CEO go straight to customer support

Yaakov Ellis

6:16 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog well, you have me. And if you make your case to me, I can get things looked at.

Magisch

You probably have more impact then the entire PR department right now

Andras Deak

that doesn't exactly spell "job security" now :PP

Yaakov Ellis

@AndrasDeak I'll keep my current job title, thanks

Andras Deak

And you should! We <3 the two people who code ;)

Yaakov Ellis

@AndrasDeak FYI: more than 25 people have committed to master in the main StackOverflow repo on our git in the last two weeks. (And there are many other repos).

5

Tinkeringbell

6:28 PM

Yay, fun stat!

Andras Deak

@YaakovEllis nice :)

rene

7:09 PM

@YaakovEllis those 25, was that before or after a code review from Nick?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Conspiracy theory: the decision to post on MSO was to get people to sign up for Teams, because Teams users are exempt from the 5-rep requirement to post on MSO... </sarcasm>

Andras Deak

I admire your persistence in being annoyed by this tiny thing of all things

Mithical

Featuring it on MSO vs featuring it on MSE is a huge difference.

I don't see stuff featured on SO. I don't use SO. But I'm a user of the network who's... pretty well engaged.

Andras Deak

but if things turn for the worst they wouldn't want the CEO to go down to 1 rep ;)

Mithical

Stuff featured on MSE shows up on SO. Stuff featured on MSO does not show up on SE.

Yaakov Ellis

7:16 PM

@Mithical so please go to the MSE post and answer there

Mithical

@YaakovEllis Sure, it's appreciated that it was at least cross-posted to MSE. Without that, I never would have even known about the post in the first place is my point.

user400654

i mean

it woulda been mentioned here

and you're here all the time

Andras Deak

it was mentioned here

Mithical

Don't get all logical on me now I'm being angry

curious

@Mithical I almost missed it too

Mithical

7:22 PM

4

A: A Note To Meta on my 2020 Kickoff Blog Post

Prashanth, thank you for posting here. I did not expect you to engage with the community, but it is certainly the right thing to do. I hope you have a good experience doing so. Let me address your question: where do you see the network going in the next five years, and what do you think shou...

This is spot-on.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Mithical Definitely appreciate its impartiality as well.

Tinkeringbell

7:36 PM

@Magisch I'll start reading now ;)

Tinkeringbell

7:52 PM

Handling a flag on one of those really old duplicates, that have the link embedded in the post and an empty banner as a result... anyone know a good post explaining that? My search skills are failing me...

nvm... found a comment.

That'll have to do then.

Mithical

Huh... my view vote totals extension isn't working on MSO.

Rubiksmoose

@Tinkeringbell I swear there was a post about that...

But I'm not finding it either.

Magisch

deep breath

now I feel better :D

Tinkeringbell

@Rubiksmoose There was an answer to the new post notices post with screenshots of the problem, and that linked to a comment underneath a different answer that explained why it was the way it was...

Yeah, we know about this. Can be bydesign or declined. The issue (discussed elsewhere) is that for really old duplicates we used to inline the duplicate post links. Subsequently we record them in their own db table. But for posts preceding this the inline links exist. And for [reasons] we are unable to extract the duplicate links and delete the inlining from 100% of them. So these will look like your screenshots - the post notice just says that there is a duplicate, but the links are part of the question text. — Yaakov Ellis ♦ Nov 25 '19 at 11:25

Mithical

@Magisch I left a polite rant as well. :) It's cathartic.

Tinkeringbell

8:02 PM

I actually had a pretty nice discussion about stuff that wasn't MSE for once... now that's really a life changer ;)

Magisch

@Mithical I left the less polite version of that on my pc

;)

user168476

@BlueSoul I doubt it, from everything I can tell, it's pretty much going to be the same as their usual flagship full games. Kinda like how the Mario Kart mobile game is full of microtransactions, but Mario Kart on the Switch isn't.

user168476

(Also, I am SUPER excited for Animal Crossing for Switch, as well.)

Rubiksmoose

@Ash Pokemon Go -> Pokemon Let's Go is another decent example as well.

Dan is Fiddling by Firelight

Shogs comments on Twitter last week have implied that what we view as cathartic rants or any other large scale expressions of dissent on meta are only leading to management turning the thumbscrews on CMs down even tighter.

Tinkeringbell

8:17 PM

If Animal Crossing ends up having some kind of multiplayer/friend mode... and people end up wanting to play together, I'm game! :D

Dan is Fiddling by Firelight

It's why I've decided to just fiddle; apparently trying to do anything about the problems ends up counter productive after passing through managements reality distortion field.

user400654

it's better to speak out constructively than to not speak out at all, even if the result ultimately ends up counter productive.

Tinkeringbell

@DanisFiddlingbyFirelight I... wouldn't really think no arguments can be made here. I took those Tweets more as a 'please don't hold it against CMs if they have to communicate some policy from upstairs'...

So yes... what user says... constructive is better than not at all

user400654

it's unfortunate that real people get caught in the crossfire, but the alternative is to... do nothing... which does nothing.

PM 2Ring

@GeorgeStocker I appreciate that brevity is the soul of wit, but your answer is in another castle. I have no idea what you're talking about, and I'm not inclined to watch a video to find out. Would it be possible to put a TL;DR or at least a hint or two into your answer?

user400654

8:23 PM

also maybe of importance, in terms of mso vs mse, all of those mso comments are being archived

George Stocker

@PM2Ring The blog post mentiones their "why at the center of everything we do", so I asked what that "why" was. Their reference and my reference are to the same source: "Start with Why" by Simon Sinek. 20 minutes watching that video will very likely be the most valuable time you invest today.

PM 2Ring

@GeorgeStocker Oh, ok. I probably won't watch the video (I have to ration my 18 gig/month), but I'll think about it.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

ugh... ratio'd internets...

imsosorryintherain.jpg

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

9:18 PM

well, it's been a long stretch out of the tavern. on a lighter note, I made mayonnaise earlier and it was fucking disgusting. Curry paste somewhat saved it.

Mithical

Well, you're not supposed to eat it plain! Pfff...

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

:P

oh that's why!!!

there's this lingering oil taste I'm not sure how to get out of

how does Hellman's do it?

Cindy Meister

9:33 PM

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Ugh. I tried doing that once, many years ago. A hand-turned "blender" for beating eggs, cream, etc. came with a recipe. Almost ruined the blender and was indebile. I sympathize - don't try to save it :-)

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

heh :P

yeah, as they say, the more you try to salvage something, the more you risk losing

well in the context of kitchen, is what I intended, but reading that out loud without context sounds like some cheap quote I could read placated upon a sunset picture on my older relatives facebook's feeds, so that's all good

@Cindy Yes, I have not made a great job out of scoping the answer to the question meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/393155/…

I do believe however that the original point's intent was totally valid, related to the long term vision of SO and totally deserves seeing

However, while writing the answer, whatever I could add after the quote felt like hijacking the content (even more than I was already doing) so I felt simply shouldering it was better

Cindy Meister

@FélixGagnon-Grenier I did see those comments and they made more of the impression of a rant and not a contribution to the discussion. If they were supposed to be a contribution to the discussion, the OP ought to have written them up as a thoughtful answer. So I don't disagree with that set having been deleted. It was one of the few "not nice" notes in the "thread" as I read through it earlier. (I haven't been tracking recent comments, only new answers.)

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

(not sure if "shouldering" means what I think it does, i think of it as Atlas shouldering a viewpoint)

Cindy Meister

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Not sure I would have used the term, although I think I understand what you mean. I might have gone with "present the content as objectively as possible"...

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

that is indeed much better

canon

9:45 PM

@YaakovEllis I think we're all a little past talk now. Now we're just watching what you do.

user400654

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

oh you

Yaakov Ellis

@user400654 so dramatic

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

ikr?

user400654

:)

there's quite a bit of history, i'm sure you're aware, with that particular user that does in fact result in their posts being in general negatively received. Unfair? eh, yeah, sure. Can we do anything about it?

i don't believe so

time might correct it

Yaakov Ellis

9:48 PM

@user400654 which user?

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I'm very well aware. I've been part of it, quite a lot I believe.

user400654

The one that made the comment mentioned here: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/393184/400654

Cindy Meister

@YaakovEllis the person who originally posted the comments that were deleted, which Felix summarized in the recent answer to the CEO's post on SO Meta.

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Yes, you have indeed...

Mithical

Yeah let's not get into that here and now.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

so, about that mayonnaise

Cindy Meister

9:52 PM

Any improvement?

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

how does one make it so that it doe snot taste like oil, before adding any spices?

Cindy Meister

I like that typo that creapt in... <g>

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I mean, at T+6 hours the oil taste seems to have vanished a bit

lol

Cindy Meister

Isnt' there a SE site for cooking <g>?

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

there is indeed

Cindy Meister

9:53 PM

Me, I'd keep adding anything else that's in the original recipe. What kind of oil did you use?

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

canola

a mistake I might have made is trying to go all "yeah I'm a cook I can do that without measuring"

Cindy Meister

<ouch> That's a very... fragant... kind of oil. Not sure if there's much you can do about that. They've improved it, over the last 40 years, but stil... Olive or sunflower might have been a better choice.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

orly?

Cindy Meister

Oh, Lordy! A kitchen is a chemistry lab, not a jazz session <g> Some things you can improvise, but not cakes or mayonnaise.

What's "orly"?

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

oh really? => orly?

Cindy Meister

9:56 PM

Merci

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

shall we debate upon how olive oil should never be used to cook while also observing how it has the best heat resistant qualities?

I'm also game for that "rey is shmi" star wars conspirary theory

Cindy Meister

I'm happy to read about it, but can't really participate :-) Something to do with how it breaks down in heat?

I have to confess I haven't had the time to see the last one, yet. And my brother is a good person and hasn't revealed anything other than "You really should go see it...". Which I hope to next week, while it's still running in Zürich, in English.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

yeah, grandparents wisdom has it that you should not use olive oil for cooking, yet olive oil has higher "point de fumée" (literally point of smoke) than most other oils we use for cooking

@CindyMeister My only spoiler will be that it's barely just slightly better than the other ones

Cindy Meister

I seem to recall reading, once upon a time, the peanut oil was the "best" for high heat, except so many people are allergic to peanuts. Can't remember what the restaurants use for Frites, these days...

Yeah, my brother said something similar, but added "Since it's the last one..."

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

Not sure if that counts as a restaurant, but I've been a cook in some microbreweries here in Montreal, and as of 4 years ago we did indeed use peanut oil for the fries.

user400654

10:03 PM

Hmm... my inbox is all of a sudden filled with red text

on mso

Dan is Fiddling by Firelight

Five Guys uses peanut oil for their fries; but they also have boxes of unshelled peanuts setup for customers to snack on set out in the open between tables so they're very openly non-peanut-alergy-safe

user400654

nvm, that wasn't my inbox, it was the... uh, trophy icon, whatever that is

it was probably already like that

Cindy Meister

@user400654 trophy icon lights up when you get reputation or a badge, although mine on SO has always turned green...Click on it and see what you've earned!

user400654

yup, it's been activating a good bit lately due to all my old so posts, but it just was really jarring to open it on MSO and see a wall of red text

(red is the link color)

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I misread "trophy icon lights up" as "traffic icons light up" and it was glorious

imagine SO is giving you shit while you're driving

user400654

10:09 PM

dunno why several of those old questions are still attracting votes

particularly lately

Cindy Meister

Secret admirer?

user400654

can't be, it's the same 5-6 questions

several times a week

Cindy Meister

School class?

@user400654 Red? Mine are blue. But I don't use any scripts or anything...

user400654

most of them are jquery answers

on MSE it's blue

on MSO it's red

Cindy Meister

Not for me...

user400654

10:20 PM

I may have just not used that menu on MSO in a while

well, mine are red on one and blue on the other, dunno why we're seeing different

aparente001

@Catija - I created a room and tried to invite you to it -- but I am not very good at that. I hope it worked, or you can find it.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I've wanted to make a wordplay on your name and the french word for "apparently" since our very first interaction on music.se but never found a half funny thing. did anyone do so at some point @aparente001?

(music.stackexchange.com/a/31756/8761 if you wonder)

V2Blast

@Tinkeringbell RIP @Rubiksmoose's productivity. :P

Rubiksmoose

@V2Blast Pssshhh what productivity?

V2Blast

True

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

10:32 PM

I always forget how much people are lurking and able to respond to pings in seconds

V2Blast

10:43 PM

@FélixGagnon-Grenier "I made mayonnaise earlier and it was [...] disgusting" - Now this just seems redundant ;)

Bart

Hey now, careful! There's nothing better than a plate of thick cut fries and mayo.

user400654

🤮

🚽

V2Blast

ew

Rubiksmoose

whoa there, what's all this dissing of mayo going on here. Mayo is great!

Although I've made bad mayo before. Using avocado oil. Don't do that lol.

user400654

nothing against mayo, but unless it's chili/cheese, it don't belong on fries

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

10:51 PM

I'm totally on that french guy's side in Pulp fiction where they use mayo instead of ketchup :)

@V2Blast pffffff :p

I'm all the way with Bart on that one.

V2Blast

Haha. I personally hate mayo.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

that's ok, it still loves you :P

@user400654 er yeah I've had all this red text too suddenly

@Rubiksmoose oh yeah?

Rubiksmoose

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Oh yeah, it was very not good. The oil was way too flavorful.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

oooh. yeah oil taste is in my very limited single experience a great hindering factor in great mayonaise :)

Rubiksmoose

I learned that lesson pretty quickly as well.

user400654

10:55 PM

or gravy, gravy is ok on fries

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I mean, the only Québec contribution to the kitchen world is gravy with cheese on fries (eg. the legendary Poutine). I do hope gravy on fries is ok :P

user400654

👍

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

also, if anyone reading this, and I am not fucking joking, have never tasted poutine, you all find a way to do so now.

user400654

i haven't

but i have no doubt it's great

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I'll ship you some

Heh, we have this thing, the "poutine war", where every bar or trstaurant in montreal (and larger metropolitan area) create a unique poutine

user400654

10:59 PM

i like a good bowl of potatoes/gravy/cheese/fried chicken/corn

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

and then everyone goes everywhere to try them, and votes, and we then select the great poutine for the year. it all helps fighting off the cold

user400654

it's a marketing scam

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

oh yeah

and we're all very much happy that it results in ever more creative poutines :)

unrelatingly, it's the first time I experience the mortarboard struggle. it must really hurt when it's points on SO.

V2Blast

@FélixGagnon-Grenier It definitely does not, based on my past experience :P

@FélixGagnon-Grenier "Creative Poutines" is my new band name.

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

make that Creative Putins and you really are close to a breakout :P

or maybe that's too obvious

I'll most definitely travel to see that band however

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