If you can't read your code in a good text editor, you've already lost.

Needing an IDE to make sense of code is like needing a debugger. Sure, they're helpful tools, but they're for when code is broken.

So, you work without an IDE or debugger? :P

eh, i wouldn't consider not being able to remember something as code being broken.

@Tinkeringbell The VIM Rambo :D

Solves everything with violence and keysmashes? :P

@user400654 Code should be descriptive and self-documenting.

@Tinkeringbell I write 90% of my code in Programmer's Notepad. If I need a debugger, I use and like Visual Studio on Windows. I also use WinDbg when necessary.

i'd rather it be less, and the descriptive bits be easily accessible

A lot of the code I write these days is cross-compiled (meaning, I write on Windows, but target embedded ARMs or something like that), so a Windows debugger doesn't do me a whole lot of good.

@CodyGray OK, let's make that the 1st demandment of our new church to create :D

@user400654 Go look up everything in the header file, then? Pass.

why go anywhere?

just hover over it with a real ide

@πάνταῥεῖ And then make the anti-church hate long method names and code comments ;)

@CodyGray I once worked with a fellow who said that. Unfortunately, he wrote the most buggy documentation ever...

In other words: this fellow just used "the code is self-documenting" as an excuse for not explaining what he did.

@Tinkeringbell Satan's ugly head raises :/

Canonically, Satan's not ugly.

In fact, he's canonically the best-looking guy ever.

(I mean, depending on which canon, but in this case I'm actually referring to Christian canon for once.)

adds that to the list of things church never teaches

(In Jewish canon, he's just another emissary of God doing his assigned job of essentially being a prosecutor in a trial. Not evil, that's just his function.)

Waait, how does that tie in with the whole snake and forbidden fruit thing?

That's something else entirely.

@Mithical Depends if you're alleged with the consequences, or just the good looking.

@Mithical Would you give me the full story?

Hmm, I don't have all the sources on hand, but let's see.

In the beginning...

I can live with broad strokes ;)

OK, what about Chewbackula?

@πάνταῥεῖ Too hairy.

The snake is also only mentioned once, and that's in the creation story. There's no connection to Satan AFAIK in any of the traditional sources; the snake simply was an entity that got punished for causing Eve to disobey.

Snake? Scratches head

(I'm not an expert by any means on this stuff, though, so I could always be missing something. Don't rely on me.)

I don't think we have any snakes in our version

@It'sOver Then who or what tempts Eve to eat the forbidden fruit?

Satan himself/itself/whatever

@Mithical Ooh, that's interesting. I'm almost tempted to get a Bible and check if it actually talks about Satan or just the snake...

The idea of an antithesis to God as a separate entity (Satan as an anti-God) is incompatible with the idea of God as understood in Judaism.

Same here

There's also no mention of Hell until basically the Roman period.

@Mithical That actually kinda makes sense... Satan is a fallen angel, not a (anti)God

(at least from what I was told)

Zoroastrians took the concept of evil to be as strong as good though, AFAIK.

Yep.

Historically, and I'm no expert in this, it's very hard to say we're worshiping any religion the way it was preached originally.

@Tinkeringbell you were also told that water boils at 100 degrees Celsius

@AndrasDeak XD At least that was by someone with a degree in science :P

@JNat Cross-site spam seeder: stackexchange.com/users/17572032/sobhit-roy

Especially Iranians, us being in the middle of all that was going around in civilizations back then

@Tinkeringbell so perhaps you should ask a scientologist

BBL

@It'sOver I mean people aren't pooping on rocks to worship anymore as far as I know so yeah

@JNat Cross-site spammer: stackexchange.com/users/14337821/ron-devid

@Mithical Generally, I do it just for fun.

I mean... worship. Yes. That.

@Rubiksmoose Eeewl. RPGs have some strange side-effects ;)

@S.L.Barth-ReinstateMonica Ah, no. That's not me. I write descriptive, verbose comments, too. And I like long identifier names.

@AndrasDeak It does, assuming standard atmospheric pressure and no impurities.

@Tinkeringbell hahaha. that's one of the secret side-effect. Be sure not to tell.

Nobody want to kill WotC's book sales numbers after all.

Okay help me out because I'm glad I know both RPG and DnD as abbreviations :P What's WotC?

Wizards of the Coast, I guess.

Does that imply rainforest and mountainous wizards too?

The company that publishes D&D. (Unless things changed, haven't done RPG's in a long while now).

Ahh, that makes sense ;)

(Sorry, I know just about enough about RPG's to know they can be very messy :P)

(D'Arvit I can't find what I was referencing)

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog > meta.stackexchange.com/questions/342598/…

Can ylou please stiop speaking in apologize for me. That's not OK too drag me in!

@CodyGray I've seen enough of your work on SO, to trust that you do understand self-documenting code.

Just pointing out, it is sometimes used as an excuse for not writing documentation... which is sad, as it gives a good practice a bad name.

@Tinkeringbell Oops there I go speaking in abbreviations all silly-like. Yeah as others have said Wizards of the Coast.

@Rubiksmoose No worries, the programmers haven't been making much more sense in here tonight :P

@Sonic If I want to apologize about something, I am able to do that myself. Stop that!

> Your question is definitely off-topic on Meta and is better deleted here.

Oh not that again..

You already beat that one to death before.

What you just did there was NOT COOL.

@πάνταῥεῖ Thanks; noted. But just to note, that statement wasn't correct in this case.

@Tinkeringbell Me?

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog And I can decide. That's not your job. Period.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Yes. You. If you want to tell @πάνταῥεῖ that it's actually a site-recommendation and ask that they should reconsider their vote, that's one thing... but apologizing for their behaviour in public like they're some unruly toddler isn't okay.

@Tinkeringbell Sorry about that.

Okay. Now play nice, you two.

Well, I am in.

@S.L.Barth-ReinstateMonica Heh. Sure you don’t mean “seen enough of your diatribes on Meta?”

That too :-P

Dumb question... Are we encouraged to upvote "I figured it out" answers made by the person who posted the question?

if it's a good answer

@DavidA Did you find the answer to be helpful?

As a side note - the current composition of close votes means that the last user to vote will get to choose which close reason to close the question with (out of a selection of three).

More interesting than helpful.

If that’s all it says, then I’d say you’re encouraged to downvote and flag as NAA.

> thanks, i found the solution. <end>

Textbook not-an-answer.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Both the off-topic votes are wrong. I picked “unclear” because we cannot make site recommendations without more details about the question to be asked.

@user400654 You might leave a comment on the question, asking if they could write an answer that explained how they solved it.

i wouldn't

@CodyGray ref. chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8188513#8188513

They actually did answer it and explained the answer.

@AndrasDeak Thanks, I’d missed the context. Wow, that’s....surprising.

@DavidA Then that sounds like a good answer. Regarding whether you should upvote it, that’s solely up to you. We only have general guidelines recommending to upvote content that you think is clear, correct, and/or useful.

But obviously you cannot upvote everything that meets that standard, because you have a limited number of votes per day.

Water boils here at 94 degrees C

Experimental finding

@It'sOver Imagine all the time that must save you over the course of your life! Every time you make a cup of tea, boom, a free minute added to your life.

. . . to spend on reading meta rants

HELL YEAH

That’s what I do with my life

Sometimes I write them, too

Meh, your rants are low quality. Not frustrated enough

A real rant must start with a "who watches the watchmen"

That’s not an accusation I’d ever thought I’d hear...

Then assume closing as dupe earns the closer rep

And start with a rhetorical question about the inherent flaws of the human psyche.

And how everyone agrees SO sucks

Wow. How do I subscribe to your newsletter?

I forgot, but there was a button somewhere or "kuen sith user" or an anagram

“destroy” is the preferred spelling

@CodyGray It got closed as off-topic

meh

"Annihilate"

But definitely not "decimate", 'cause there are some language bureaucrats around

My suggestion of “rain down the fire and brimstone of hell upon” didn’t get much traction

I dunno, seems solid

Where?

Mostly a joke. Although I did suggest it to Jeff or Waffles back in the day.

Again, mostly a joke

I picked duplicate because while there aren't that many details as to what the author wants to ask about, they can check to see themselves whether they can ask it by reading the duplicate target. I felt that that would be more helpful to the author.

If I had any control over it, I would have had the site play a Samuel Jackson "You will know my name is the Lord" clip from Pulp Fiction

Thank God I don't have any control over it

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Yeah, it’s an understandable instinct. But sometimes I worry that it gets interpreted as “you can’t ask for specific advice because one time someone already asked for general advice.

In general, though, I do tend to prefer closing as dupe when possible because that does provide some help.

Instinct. Well, I've lost my predator eyes, I can't close anymore

@It'sOver Play for the mod? Pass. I don’t want to listen to that a thousand times.

Sacrilege!

I prize efficiency

@CodyGray Per policy here, questions can be closed as duplicates of of FAQs if that FAQ addresses the question entirely. I do make the additional point of editing the autocomment to point out where and how exactly it's answered (in this case, to point out that it might be acceptable on Code Review but they should read the guidance to see if it would actually be.)

Not citing policy, of course. I close zillions of things as dupes of the FAQ

just delete it and call it a day

I always have to edit my autocomment now, so it doesn’t sound like I’m asking a question or seeking to engage in a discussion

@user400654 I like to close first. Maybe that’s silly.

@CodyGray I've seen people editing the autocomment back into the original form, but I've been telling those users to not do so since editing it will prevent it from being auto-deleted once the question is closed (for good reason).

Close -> delete -> nuke user -> salt earth

i delete said auto comments for the system so that the system doesn't need to waste time doing so

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Are you sure it will? Last I checked, the autodeleter just matched links to the master question.

@user400654 The system appreciates your efforts, and rewards you with 10 more duplicate questions.

@CodyGray It was changed last year. Technically it was changed much earlier, but it suffered from a bug; last year, that bug was fixed.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Ugh. Quite unfortunate in this case.

@user400654 Friend Computer thanks you for your service.

Wonder if the system still matches on the old text? One can hope...

i will await a response from the system

@user400654 You are the system!

We are all the system!

@CodyGray I have another question: the question is currently closed as off-topic, which both you and I believe is wrong. The policy states that you should only vote to reopen with the intention of changing a close reason if the question should be closed as a duplicate but is not, and leave it otherwise. If, as you say, the question is unclear, I should leave it, right?

Last bullet of meta.stackexchange.com/a/180450/377214

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Yes, I’m inclined to leave it. I don’t typically obsess too much over which close reason is chosen.

If I cared enough, and wasn’t on mobile, I might leave a comment explaining it was closed because not enough detail was provided, and encouraging them to [edit] to share a draft/outline of their question.

That linked answer is describing reviewing items in the reopen queue, which this is not, as far as I know.

It needn’t be there. Someone would have to vote to reopen.

I wouldn’t vote to reopen it. I already voted to close it.

@CodyGray I even had a custom "also duplicate: <link>" comment get deleted, without it being added to the question as a target. I doubt that it was manually deleted...

it was on stackoverflow.com/questions/59756805/… if you're curious enough

@AndrasDeak Yes, this was another symptom of the same bug.

my thing was there 5 days ago

@AndrasDeak Yup, autodeleted by Community on Jan 15

But I don't remember the exact wording of my comment

@CodyGray knew it! Thanks :)

so we can keep playing whack-a-mole with that script...

Regexes are hard?

I'd be inclined to suggest that comments should only be deleted if their suggested targets are included in the question :/

Mhmm.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog you seem like a person who likes reporting these things, be my guest if you feel like it

I'm not terribly invested in making things better anymore

Investment is weird

ROI of volunteering has become zero.

What was the ROI previously?

Fun. And that's gone now.

Ah, hmm.

Or at least some feeling of satisfaction, in doing anything useful.

There's no need for janitors in this house anymore as the company directory board apparently decided.

Well, I am awaiting my food ordered from the inda deli now. Hungry.

→ 3 messages moved to Chimney

🍔🍟

eh?

Hmm, I'm on the list of mods that resigned after Shog and Robert were fired now. Not really accurate, but I really don't mind as I'd certainly have resigned on the spot if I hadn't already done that.

i mean, you clearly care, since you brought it up, in one way or another,

but it's not unsurprising to me that people would just assume things that would be convenient to their narrative

Right now the delay until a resignation is processed is longer than the time it takes for SE to make yet another terrible decision. So I can't really blame anyone for not getting the causality entirely correct here.

lol, too true. How long did yours take @DisappointedinSE? I think you first mentioned it almost a month ago now.

@terdon two weeks I think

Oh. That's not too bad.

I think mine took longer and that was pre Shog leaving.

Maybe someone higher up got concerned with all these disgruntled diamonds around ;-)

Nah, mine was the same. I sent them an email on Nov 16th (saturday) and was demodded on Dec 2nd, so two weeks and two days.

@terdon Well, in the interest of fairness, a lot of employees were off for a while during that time due to Thanksgiving Day in the U.S....it's not unusual to take several days time off during that time.

It's all within 6-8

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I wasn't complaining.

Forget the holidays. The CM team is tiny and of that team only one or two people have the access needed to remove a diamond.

I completely understand why it took a while.

It feels weird not being a mod anymore. Just looked it up, and I've been a mod for almost 9 years

@DisappointedinSE Yeah. I cowardly held on to one of my three diamonds. It's gonna be weird when that one goes.

And I've only been a mod for 5 and a half years.

@DisappointedinSE in before unfixable comment/chat typos

shudders that's probably the single greatest perk of being a mod.

The chat perks in general are something I immediately missed

So, Jon's resignation got re-featured. Does anyone know why?

ordering maybe?

well, i guess the ordering didn't change

no history in the, well, history of it being unfeatured

@Chipster On what site?

Wait, I'm probably confusing with Shog's good-bye meta which got unfeatured. NVM then.

that one's still featured too, just... it's the 3rd, so it doesn't get listed

@terdon I jokingly put it in my "campaign pitch" for being elected

heh :)

@user400654 I'm on SO which also has 2 featured posts, so maybe there is just too many things featured.

Only mods resigning are unfeatured. It's not like they'd treat their own employees badly. *cough*

I'm a bit surprised they didn't include employee resignations and firings in that edict

It's also a bit different (no positive/negative opinion) to see that local moderators were allowed to feature these posts here in the first place, despite a prior response (from Monica) indicating that they don't do so since they're merely local moderators and not "arbiters over what's featured network-wide".

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog My understanding in this case is that the MSE mods didn't ask for permission to feature

@DisappointedinSE Yeah, the edit summary on the first such move simply implies that it was mod fiat.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog My understanding is that they limited themselves to not featuring stuff in a sort of agreement with SEI. They decided that breaking that agreement was important enough.

Funny how things can break like that

SE often seems to forget that the characteristics of mods that make them awesome mods cut both ways

I would assume that if they found it problematic enough, they would have already taken action against it. but here we are, with three still featured, for longer than the declared 2 day limit for mods. (they're employees, so i guess it's fair to think maybe the period is longer for employees vs mods?)

and/or they're all just too busy for meta

it's monday, and a holiday for some

@user400654 don't poke a sleeping bear. These posts are mostly inconsequential for them. The unfeature was exclusively to spite us in my opinion.

And yeah, mods are not employees. It could backfire for PR if they publicly cast aside employees. None of the Shog drama is officially public, is it?

i mean

if it's on the web it's public

@AndrasDeak What part of it isn't public to you? Most of it was on Twitter.

But has the company acknowledged anything about firing Shog and how? Until they do it's just gossip. But proactively unfeaturing his farewell post is hard evidence of "a dick move"

they haven't unfeatured it

My point exactly

it's just hidden because it's the third

I'm saying regarding chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8189409#8189409 that lack of unfeature doesn't imply endorsement/indifference. It's probably a thorn in their side, but it's better strategy to leave it alone.

right, it doesn't, i'm not saying it doesn't, i'm saying i would assume ...

you can disagree, :p

@AndrasDeak Gossip from one of the people involved is pretty good quality gossip lol. But yeah we're literally never going get that version of public.

@user400654 yeah yeah yeah :P

I would prefer them unfeatured, but, i'm not sure what i'd replace them with

Horse heads

not a whole lot of... positive discussions going on besides those 3

depending on your definition of positive

Shog9's departure announcement on MSE is still featured, along with Robert's and Jon's. Shog's simply isn't shown because there are only two slots for MSE posts to be featured, and it chooses the newest ones first. (Shog's is the oldest of the 3.)

There are also 2 questions featured on MSO. Those are the only two questions featured on MSO, and they consume the 2 slots.

On Stack Overflow, therefore, you see 4 featured Meta questions: two from MSE (Robert and Jon), and two from MSO.

It's also worth pointing out that Meta.SE posts don't show up as featured posts on per-site metas.

Ah, good point. That too.

I didn't read the entire transcript, just skimmed it, but it looked like there was potentially some misinformation, or at least some confusion.

The company has done plenty of harm regarding the [featured] tag, so let's make sure that we don't accuse them of harm that they aren't doing.

FWIW. I decided to feature all three. While we did not normally feature things, I am a human exception handler. The staff could probably not have featured it. So I decided to do it

Even if the staff could have done it, it isn't necessary that they do it, since there are community moderators to do it.

It's the same reason that I mark stuff as [status-declined] on our Meta that I know won't get implemented. Stuff like, "make it mandatory to leave a comment when downvoting".

@CodyGray well. I mean, they might have potentially gotten in trouble

Yeah, I knew what you meant.