Tavern on the Meta - 2020-01-20 (page 3 of 4)

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5:05 PM

I'm just reading that physics is broken here for today. Due to exceptionally high air pressure levels, water will only start boiling at 101°C.

err

wat

sounds reasonable

if you're anywhere except the Netherlands there's bound to be some variation in boiling point :P

but, i mean, clearly that means physics isn't broken, right?

clear sky no clouds for the 3rd week in a row here

5:15 PM

it was 33F outside today, at 10AM, that's kinda unusual for here

@user400654 Water boils at 100°, that's the whole point of the scale! Boil at hundred, freeze at zero

at average atmospheric pressures

thats the fine print

for instance on mt everest base camp its like 70c

I ... Was never taught the fine print in school then.

@Tinkeringbell the only truth is the Kelvin scale anyway

@AndrasDeak I never got used to that one....

5:17 PM

And you can even heat stuff above their boiling temperature...for a while. Just use protection.

on Mt Everest at 8848m the air pressure drops to 35kPa and water boils at 71C

wasn't that far off

@Tinkeringbell that's also why pressure cookers are a thing. They heat water above 100 celsius

also why they explode when faulty

@Magisch you can basically tell me anything about that, I'm not going up there to check. For all we know, it's an inside joke by mountaineers ;)

bombs doing bomb things

5:19 PM

water vapour uses a lot more space then a comparable amount of water. So when water boils, it has to expand. If the space is constrained, the pressure rises along that axis with the temperature until either the temperature stops rising or the thing holding the water in gives

@Tinkeringbell Wouldn't that be an "outside joke"? ;-)

wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/…

@Rubiksmoose you're breaking my mind...

the link delineates the boiling point of any substance based on various factors

@Tinkeringbell oh no! Does that mean I also have to buy it?

I've got some super glue, I'm sure we can fix it up.

5:22 PM

@Rubiksmoose nah, I'll keep it. Thanks ;)

@Rubiksmoose I was thinking of using some yarn tonight ;)

@Tinkeringbell Phew. puts away wallet

It's okay, it was a birdbrain in the first place. *runs*

Meanies.

@Mithical sideeye

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Fun fact: The freezing point of water doesn't change with air pressure.

5:33 PM

See?! Broken.

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No, just physics.

@πάνταῥεῖ [digs around in high school memory] is that because it's a triple point?

@πάνταῥεῖ water slightly expands when freezing right?

so it should change ever so slightly

@πάνταῥεῖ I'm glad I never went through with that besides the very basics, then ;)

It's ok, physics was shipped broken. We just mostly pretend it isn't.

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5:35 PM

@Rubiksmoose There's another point: Max density is at 4 °C

@πάνταῥεῖ uuuh it does

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@AndrasDeak Really? That's new for me. Any reference?

user image

the liquid-solid curve in the middle is not vertical, it slants slightly to the left when you increase pressure (go up in the figure)

this means that T_melt decreases when p increases. This is why water is not a normal liquid: normal liquids have increasing melting point with pressure

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Interesting. So you'll never stop learning.

but yeah, the rate of change in freezing point is much smaller than that of boiling point

5:40 PM

so water sublimates below 1kpa?

indeed

most things do at low enough pressure

@Magisch ice on the Moon etc.

1kpa is pretty vacuous isn't it

yup

atmosphere is what 102kpa?

yup, 101 kpa is the nominal I think (1 atm)

5:42 PM

yikes thats a pretty strong vacuum by our standard then

the subjective strength of "negative pressure" becomes a bit...vacuous below a point ;)

This is how freeze-drying works: they drop the pressure so that the liquid boils away, the rest freezes

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First discovered at birds heads runs

That graph is very informative but it looks super messed up

water is quite an anomalous liquid it seems

Water is a crazy material. Which might or might not have to do with life on Earth.

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Might have to be relevant for life in the universe.

5:45 PM

For instance, I think the fact that it expands as ice is freaky, and this feature helps a lot in keeping bodies of water liquid by creating an insulating sheet of ice on top. But I'm not entirely sure about this feature though, this is just a vague memory.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

that makes a strange amount of sense

(the unsure part is how rare it is)

if the density reduced or kept steady with freezing the ice would sink or stay in place, causing the water to freeze all at once rather then sheetwise

I've only seen two kinds of ice: water ice, and dry ice which sublimates at atmospheric conditions so it's moot here

5:46 PM

and the ice sheet then serves as further insulation to limit heat loss to the air

well, i mean, that depends on what you think of as "ice"

djsmiley2k in darkness

IceIV

dry ice is really painful to touch

source: stupid 15 year old magisch

@user400654 I won't go there, trying to define why tin is not ice

:)

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5:48 PM

@user400654 crystalline water

Disappointed in SE

@Magisch Should be okay if you're fast enough

@DisappointedinSE 15 year old me was not fast enough and decided to try & hold it for as long as possible

what did you learn?

16 year old me was not let anywhere near the liquid nitrogen as a result

Disappointed in SE

I have touched stuff in a -80°C freezer, and that's okay as long as you're fast and don't touch any metal stuff

djsmiley2k in darkness

5:50 PM

liquid nitrogen isn't such a problem, as long as you don't have too much, don't drink it....

although they did pour some over an apple and then shattered the apple

I was also the guy that had too much fun with thermite

they wanted to let us do a year end experiment and we all somehow convinced the teacher to test the claim that the new table and mat were fireproof

by using a unwise amount of thermite because we loved the fire and glow of it

Disappointed in SE

fireproof and thermite-proof are not really the same thing ;-)

but we didn't know that!

the teacher should have

of course fireproof is not the same as molten iron proof

There's a huge website about water and ice: www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ice_phases.html - there's more than 20 kinds of water ice.

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@Magisch Almost nothing is thermite proof. Not even Feyman's van :D

Blowing up Feynman's Van - (Sheldon's Singing) - The Big Bang Theory

5:56 PM

@djsmiley2kindarkness and don't hard-plug the container

djsmiley2k in darkness

lol

or take it in a lift ¬_¬

6:11 PM

Bwahahaha, you can vote to reopen even after a post is deleted.

meta.stackexchange.com/posts/342583/revisions

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@Mithical Next step probably is to vote for undeletion.

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

I'd like some kind of signpost, where regular users can tell they're leaving.

@πάνταῥεῖ It was deleted by a diamond, it can't be VTUDed.

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I didn't find that particular one too bad. It's wasn't a rant quit, and gave some interesting background and hindsight.

More delete worthy IMO: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/342582/…

can't wait for that to be asked on SO

djsmiley2k in darkness

6:25 PM

I can't see these things.

Y U DO DIS

me neither

djsmiley2k in darkness

Y U TREAT ME LIKE DIS.

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

Nor do you want to see it. It's just another poorly formatted technical question.

It might have some merit, but it looks like it's just another fellow who can't interpret error messages.

djsmiley2k in darkness

lol ok

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

6:42 PM

No Smokey, I'm not flagging anymore.

Hey i was taken here from stackoverflow and its really sad and kinda scary

Mostly sad.

Horror movies are scary

Has a similar effect been happening in other stack sites as well?

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

All over SE. It's the end of an era.

Why is this happening though?

6:51 PM

Profitability

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

We've been asking this ourselves.... most plausible theory is, the company is in the hands of VC's who don't care about its original mission, only about money.

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@rene Coding Horror movies would even be scarier :P

@πάνταῥεῖ sounds like a good sub genre

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

Ok, what Coding Horror movies can we make? The Monster of Spolkenstein?

Nightmare on ELL Stack?

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@rene Maybe Jeff could use that for a game idea ;)

6:53 PM

To me it's pretty scary... I'm not really a social person and have only actively been part of 2 social networks my whole life

And to see the community like this scares me

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

Tbh, SE was never meant to be a social network. A community formed, but that was more of a side effect.

Not sure if the network counts as an social network

To me it feels like one i guess

it has social aspects, sure

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@S.L.Barth-ReinstateMonica That sounds like a great idea :D (Spolkenstein LOL)

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

6:56 PM

Thanks! :D

The things money does to ppl :(

I hope you all have a great day/night, stay safe

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

Same to you!

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There are social and psychological aspects. But these weren't ever clearly communicated, or like now taken higher than the technical aspects and overruling aiming for quality content as expected.

@rene except It and It: Chapter 2

...I should've written it as IT

maybe not

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7:00 PM

Maybe Stephen King might have an idea how to make a good horror movie from all of that.

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

Or Bram Stoker... Stackula :-)

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Spolskula would do fine as well ...

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

Or Draculatwood :-)

Let's see how much traction a gofundme for writing a film script will get ...

Just hire someone to read Meta posts in an ominous voice.

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7:05 PM

@S.L.Barth-ReinstateMonica No, that would be van Atwood :D

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

On a more serious note, if you want to use the events as inspiration for a horror story... it could be the story of a corporation taken over by undead monsters.

@rene the company could humorously tweet "go fund yourselves"

0.o what did I just drop in to?

we are discussing a movie ...

Romero's Night of the Bountied Off-topics

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7:07 PM

@rene To be precise a potential movie

Does it have a hot, well muscled guy in it that does at least 1 shirtless scene?

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

@πάνταῥεῖ Lol!

@Tinkeringbell Sure, why not! Posts advertisement on fitness.SE

@Tinkeringbell I object to your objectification

1 min ago, by Tinkeringbell

0.o what did I just drop in to?

@AndrasDeak ;) I'm determined to show y'all how cruel the world is ;)

@CodyGray Hey, if you don't want an inclusive movie that also speaks to women of my kind, that's sexist!

7:09 PM

I'm down, but only if there are shirtless babes, too. We cannot be exclusionary, after all.

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@Tinkeringbell Sorry, no! Only nerds ...

@CodyGray I never said you couldn't have those ;)

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

@Tinkeringbell You do realize that it's a horror movie? To be precise, a Coding Horror movie?

But we're censoring the nipples.

For location we take an AirBnB

7:10 PM

@S.L.Barth-ReinstateMonica Oh, so we're talking about managers asking you to do stuff, because as a female, of course you have a secret agenda of promoting women in coding? :P

Seen that one, I rate it only 1 star.

@rene A cheap one?

Given the last 5 minutes ... very cheap

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

@Tinkeringbell More that your hot guy is going to end up slaughtered. But don't worry, we'll give him some good shots before that!

@S.L.Barth-ReinstateMonica Oh... well, I can live with that. He wasn't going to marry me anyways :(

@Tinkeringbell not with that attitude

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Should we cast Prashanth Chandrasekar for the role of Igor?

7:13 PM

@Magisch Maybe I can be the one to kill him instead? :P

WoW keeps giving me free mounts to get me to come back

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

@Tinkeringbell The only part we don't censor, is the gruesome spaghetti code. Where the protagonist bravely enters the multi-threaded client-server C++ legacy code base!

> multi-threaded client-server C++ legacy code base

Actually just shoot me now

Did we settle on the shirtless Jeff Atwood, then?

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@Magisch Just wrap it with chrochet

7:16 PM

@S.L.Barth-ReinstateMonica Hmmm.

Deal ;)

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@CodyGray Maybe could be a good (ob-)scene.

@CodyGray Maybe we should name a little less names to keep this fun ;)

Your idea of fun must be different from mine

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All our ideas of fun are different. That's why we don't like it at all ;)

We like waffles, though. Those must feature prominently.

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7:19 PM

Well, I am missing the cream on top of the waffles.

Maybe the spaghetti code can power some supersmart wafflemaker device?

maybe the spaghetti code reaches critical mass and forms the flying spaghetti monster

who then absolves us all by his noodly grace

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

Wait... the spaghetti code is supposed to be the horror. An eldritch mess of threads, interacting in infathomable ways that the human mind cannot comprehend...

the flying spaghetti monster frowns upon eldritch horror because he is a benevolent creator deity

Oh, so the waffles are like a secret message from the horror?

7:23 PM

At the end, the hero turns the spaghetti code into waffles

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

I think the waffles should be helpful. Like garlic against vampires, waffles could protect you from the threads... for a short while.

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Should we found the church of good quality Q&A (which adopts the church of clean coding)?

@S.L.Barth-ReinstateMonica "waffles could protect you from the threads" Not bullet proof unfortunately :P

@πάνταῥεῖ You'd have a lot of religious fractions, fall-outs, then consolidation again because of financial reasons ;)

@πάνταῥεῖ I have a crochet hook, it works well with threads?

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@Tinkeringbell I am very afraid so, yes.

@Tinkeringbell Depends on how many you have loose in parrallel.

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

We've got enough holy wars among programmers without formally making it a religion. Vim vs Emacs, Java vs C#, etc.

7:27 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ Double - quadruple strands aren't that weird ;)

@S.L.Barth-ReinstateMonica You're forgetting 'real' IDE's there, with your Vim and Emacs :P

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

blush you're right. IntelliJ vs NetBeans vs Visual Studio vs Eclipse...

whichever editor forbids you to input actual tab characters

MDT for the win! :D

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> 1. You should praise your programming language and do it right!

Nah.

If you praise mine, it starts to act funny.

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7:30 PM

> 2. Your IDE is subordinary.

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

True.

@Tinkeringbell What is that?

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Good question!

@CodyGray Magik Development Tool. Cheap Eclipse knockoff, but it allows for breakpoints ;)

Wait, Eclipse doesn't allow breakpoints?

7:32 PM

Emacs doesn't, at least our version does not really unless you do all sorts of weird tricks.

Wait, people still use Eclipse?

Also, one would think that "Magik Development Tool" would be for programming in Magik.

Magik usually comes with Emacs :)

@Tinkeringbell Emacs and Eclipse are different...

@CodyGray Yep!

@CodyGray I knohow!

I had a very neat Eclipse when I was still programming Java ;)

7:33 PM

@ThiefMaster What else would you use? Netbeans?

@Tinkeringbell Oh, I guess I hadn't kept up. I thought you were still a Java maven.

@CodyGray Nope, I've been doing Magik for about a year and a half now?

A bit more. 2 years next May.

IntelliJ? (assuming it's for java)

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@ThiefMaster Sure they do, why not? Is that a religious view not to use it?

@πάνταῥεῖ Religious view not to use Java. /ducks

like emacs vs vim i guess :p

7:34 PM

I'm still at about a 6 month level though, had some bad tutors :/

XD

@CodyGray ^ this

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@CodyGray I fully agree :D

:8188922 No worries, there's no shame in admitting it!

i remember eclipse having some really annoying things, like lack of color schemes so almost everyone was using its default bright theme because nobody wanted to configure every single color manually..

but that was ~10y ago

So you're using Magik commercially? That's interesting. What's the advantage over Java? @Tinkeringbell

7:36 PM

@ThiefMaster It had a decent dark mode about 5? years ago ;)

wow, that early? :P

@CodyGray Nothing. But the company doesn't use Java ;)

Eclipse is just horribly bloated. Like, I think Visual Studio is bloated, so then occasionally I'll try to use Eclipse just to remind myself how good VS is.

(but still better than unity where you have to pay $$$ for dark mode)

@ThiefMaster I don't remember it not having a dark theme... so yeah :P

To be honest though, Smallworld is trying to phase out Magik and go towards Java. So far, they only made things slower.

7:38 PM

All these silly people building new languages atop Java. Like Kotlin.

Or, more specifically, atop the JVM.

abstract above java

kill your performance dead today

@CodyGray They call it 'porting' :P

And it's fancy, so why not? :P

What @Magisch said. It's not exactly like the JVM is a marvel of engineering.

At least Kotlin can be compiled using LLVM.

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I am enslaved every day at work to praise Delphi being a good and consistent programming language (because I work with old legacy code).
That's a fairly hard job, but I'll never give up to find what's positive with that stuff, or could be refactored to be made better.
At least it's a programming language like any other, and what >I like sometimes is the single pass compiler and it's incredible speed.

This whole "oh, we're going to use virtual machines so we have portability" is so silly. You still need to port the run-time, so you might as well just write a back-end for LLVM or Gnu or whatever else. Then, you instantly have fast, non-bloated code.

7:41 PM

@CodyGray Now you're assuming a level of Kotlin knowledge I do not have :P. What's the LLVM?

@πάνταῥεῖ Delphi is a lot nicer than Java.

LLVM isn't really related to Kotlin. It's the back-end for the Clang compiler toolchain. Generates machine code.

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@CodyGray I fully agree!

It's mostly all practices which make looking programming languages bad.

Nah

Bloated, managed languages are objectively bad, regardless of practices.

There's no amount of good programming practice that's going to result in a good product.

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Byte code is byte code. If it's translated for VM or machine code almost doesn't matter, no?

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

Do you think Delphi would be better if it had lambda expressions?

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7:45 PM

@S.L.Barth-ReinstateMonica It has lambda expressions actually, dude!

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

It does? Glad to hear it!

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@S.L.Barth-ReinstateMonica From long time ago, yes. Just like C had function pointers and stuff.

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

Searching... I knew it has anonymous functions.

@πάνταῥεῖ Speed matters.

@πάνταῥεῖ Wait, you're not saying function pointers == lambda expressions, are you?

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@CodyGray No, I don't say that really. But Delphi has anonymous function definitions which can be considered as lambda functions for a while.

S.L. Barth - Reinstate Monica

7:50 PM

Hm, I'm not sure these are the same. Apparently Eric Lippert wrote about the difference.

Ah, yeah. Very useful for callbacks.

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In a way of more abstract thinking, C function pointers can be used to emulate lambdas, it's just a bit more complicated syntactically.

Not the same. You have to declare and define the function somewhere else.

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But Delphi definitely has a way to define anonymous functions inline.

Now, personally...and maybe this is just a limitation in my thinking, but I tend to find it clearer to define the function somewhere else.

Just like how I almost never use std::pair or std::tuple. Just define a darn struct, where you can give the members meaningful names!

Ain't nobody who wants to read foo.second and guess what that means.

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7:58 PM

Yeah, std::pair isn't really clear in c++. Not that sure that std::tuple is more.

"Ain't nobody who wants to read foo.second and guess what that means." That's where any good IDE comes to help.

Generalization of std::pair for more than 2 items.

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