Tavern on the Meta

1:03 AM

Re this:

I seriously don't understand how Stack Overflow benefits as a company from ending relations with the community. Are they developing a new product that replaces Stack Exchange or something? Because for Stack Exchange to work there needs to be a community.

Journeyman Geek

@JBis I guess the assumption is SO can coast along in it's reputation while ignoring the smaller, vocal part of the community that actually cares

user1306322

@JBis I don't think they find that a true statement

and thus they're willing to do what they're doing, thinking there is no or little risk in that

JBis

@JourneymanGeek Sure, but how does coasting benefit them? Unless they are trying to reduce costs and coast until they inevitably close.

user1306322

short term this might be true, long term we'll all have to see how bad things can get, and because this is a long term thing we can't easily convince them with our current data set

Journeyman Geek

Practically as long as they can sell teams seats, and Enterprise licenses they make money

user1306322

1:08 AM

but by the time the stats are convincing the damage done would be very hard to reverse

Journeyman Geek

We are a cost center

JBis

Are people really buying the team products?

Journeyman Geek

No idea

JBis

I highly doubt it. To me, it would only work in large companies (Google, Microsoft, Amazon, etc.) but those companies would just develop something in house.

@user1306322 How could they not? They must know they are destroying the community.

user1306322

yea, but not their profit from their teams sales/support fees!

JBis

1:11 AM

Even the people that come from google searches and don't have accounts. They only come because we have answers...provided by the community.

user1306322

at this point in time what brings them money are conversations like this: "Hey do you know that site, Stack Overflow?" "yea?" "can we make a site like that but for just our developers?" "I guess, but we could just pay them, and they're gonna support it too" "oh great!"

and none of them care about user politics

the site could be frozen today and these sales would still go on for a while

Journeyman Geek

@JBis that's something hard to explain to sales and management not from the community

@JBis MS used enterprise internally

@GeorgeStocker has a series of tweets that tries to make sense of SE's strategy. Worth a read.

I'll dig it up once the current chunk of work is done

user1306322

now I wonder at what point the company turned from Q&A only into sales of a non-public Q&A for companies service

JBis

@JourneymanGeek damn

I wonder how much they got paid for that.

@JourneymanGeek ping me please. thanks!

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 well, the search for the big revenue source isn't new

Just that invariably it's the community that bares the brunt of the losses when they fail

user1306322

1:22 AM

I know I just wonder when (and possibly why if we can discover that) the decline started

Journeyman Geek

Sometime after Jeff left

user1306322

did he leave for related reasons?

Journeyman Geek

He left cause he probably did what he came here to do. Discourse was his next adventure

user1306322

as an aside, maybe I'm spoiled by data-heavy interfaces but I feel like Discourse wastes a lot of screen real estate with that generous spacing between all elements

Journeyman Geek

@JBis twitter.com/gortok/status/1218161698105892864

3

start here

JBis

1:28 AM

thanks again, will do

Journeyman Geek

there may be more

Mithical

7:26 AM

> "....where once was light... now darkness falls... where once was love.... love is no more..."

Mithical

7:36 AM

2 days ago, by Mithical

> "Wake me up inside... Call my name and save me..."

Jan 13 at 18:00, by Mithical

> "But there are dreams that cannot be... And there are storms we cannot weather...."

Emiliana Torrini - Gollum's Song

►

Evanescence - Bring Me To Life (Official Music Video)

►

Les Misérables (2012) - I Dreamed A Dream Scene (1/10) | Movieclips

►

Shadow The Burning Wizard

?

All is well? @Mith

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard I think they're ok. All, less so.

Mithical

@ShadowTheBurningWizard twitter.com/superplane39/status/1218802901411409920

Shadow The Burning Wizard

7:55 AM

@Mithical well, Jon's case is different, but yeah.... another big loss and huge hole left. :(

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard did you see his blog?

Mithical

Kim Petras - "Personal Hell (Official Lyric Video)" (NSFW)

@ShadowTheBurningWizard I'm feeling pensive today. I tend to turn to music when I'm in such a mood.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

8:15 AM

@Mithical fair enough

@JourneymanGeek Jon's? Not yet. Why?

Mithical

It's well worth reading.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

He said his resignation is planned, not a layoff.

Mithical

It sheds some... light on recent events.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Oh... OK, will read.

Mithical

Especially if you also read George Stocker's Twitter thread.

Journeyman Geek

8:16 AM

@ShadowTheBurningWizard you need to

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@JourneymanGeek related to my apology? Was it misplaced after all?

Cody Gray

@Mithical Remember that George is just speculating, so as intriguing and well-argued as his points are, they're merely speculation.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard not really

but it has some stuff not in his post here

I don't want to really send you in with preconceptions.

Mithical

@CodyGray Of course. But that interview with Joel... really makes you think.

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical and some of Jeff's comments too

that's an interesting thing though. I wonder if it would have been possible to build a viable SE without a ton of VC money, and if such an org could have kept its heart

Cody Gray

8:20 AM

Yes.

Journeyman Geek

I get the idea a lot of folks saw it coming in hindsight

Cody Gray

SE didn't require the VC money.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray we don't know the finances, or the costs

Cody Gray

Not for Q&A, I mean.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray well - that's an interesting thing with the video - that careers was Joel's main idea for money, while Jeff shrugged and threw in ads

Shadow The Burning Wizard

8:22 AM

I believe SO could stick with being a Q&A site, focus on that, and thrive. The decision to grow into different directions is what killed the old SO.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard well - I think there was a point where it got... uninteresting

from a business standpoint

It worked

Magisch

@ShadowTheBurningWizard It's a steady moderately profitable venture

VC money wants x10 growth every couple years, not steady and profitable

ALL the money not some of it

Shadow The Burning Wizard

8:50 AM

@Magisch well the decision to get the dirty VC money was the biggest mistake SE ever made, no doubt. But they had no choice, I think.

They were too big at that point already.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard actually I think they started off with it too

and I guess it helped them grow. Its one of those "what if" questions

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

status-kaboom

rene

\o/

Journeyman Geek

9:05 AM

lol

Bit busy for now ._.

there's a damned stupid bug in the application we support generating a bunch of tickets

and I have an hour of helldesk left :D

rene

9:31 AM

Just call it by design and move on ....

Journeyman Geek

@rene only if I can get popcorn

Mithical

*calls* NIIIIICK WE NEED POPCORN

Journeyman Geek

(I'm pretty sure our client will not think its a feature. And I'm pretty sure its not a bug we can charge for :D)

rene

You can at least pretend it is a feature until your shift is over ...

Andras Deak

spend that 1 hour telling the customer how important they are to you

Journeyman Geek

9:46 AM

@AndrasDeak fortunately I don't always have to interact with customers

just try to read their minds, and send their cases to the appropriate one of about 30 different assignees including ones from other companies :D

Andras Deak

Then I guess you'll have to actually work...

Journeyman Geek

.... Almost makes me miss desktop support but the money is better :D

(insert rant about IT outsourcing here)

or more precisely the inefficiencies having different jobs done by different lowest bidders and...

OOH LOOK A CASE

Mithical

> "...we can battle the dark, when the evening ends... we can carry the spark, when the spark starts to dim... 'cause we are fighters..."

(if anyone finds my inserting song lyrics into the room like this annoying, just let me know and I'll stop)

Shadow The Burning Wizard

10:05 AM

@Mithical the opposite. Please keep them coming! :)

Andras Deak

@Mithical I propose youtube.com/watch?v=S7sOZ_TFUXg

Tinkeringbell

This one: youtube.com/watch?v=RHitmsjSMS8

rene

To lighten the mood I might add some Schlager music ...

Tinkeringbell

@rene youtube.com/watch?v=Ish_BwyjOso ? ;)

Mithical

> "...they tell me I'm too young to understand... they say I'm caught up in a dream... so wake me up when it's all over... when I'm wiser and I'm older"

Journeyman Geek

10:17 AM

whoo. helpdesk is over

Mithical

> "...I don't know what you're expecting of me... ...every step that I take is another mistake to you... ...I've become so numb, I can't feel you there... become so tired, so much more aware... ...can't you see that you're smothering me...? ...holding too tightly, afraid to lose control... 'cause everything that you thought I would be... has fallen apart right in front of you..."

(that's the last one for now)

Andras Deak

How nostalgic :P

rene

@Tinkeringbell you know all the classics, don't you? ;)

Tinkeringbell

Most of them, I guess ;)

Shadow The Burning Wizard

11:04 AM

blatant NAA, del votes will be welcome.

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical .... that's one of my emo songs :D

Which is funny cause I hadn't listened to linkin park for like...

from when I was your age :D

Shadow The Burning Wizard

o_O

Mithical

@ShadowTheBurningWizard poof

Journeyman Geek

uhm

Apparently picture uploads on whatsapp are borked

Mithical

Yep, repro'd.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

11:14 AM

@Mithical paf

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical a rediculous part of my workflow depends on whatsapp :D

Mithical

welp

Shadow The Burning Wizard

LOL

> I can't send stickers on WhatsApp ... you don't know what I suffer for that 😭😭😭😭😭 I don't know if it has fallen or what happens ..

Journeyman Geek

oh... fun

Can it be even downer?

next week would be good :D

quid

@Mithical it mostly made me think how much of it is even true and accurate. The only point where I knew what the truth was, it was very detached from the reality.

It's maybe good from a promotional point of view, but I'd take it all with a grain of salt.

Magisch

11:34 AM

@JourneymanGeek everything can be worse

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch no, better

John Dvorak

They could make MSE read-only

Andras Deak

and they could pull the plug on chat

I wouldn't warn us first

Mithical

"weird chat rooms we can't get rid of" -Joel

Magisch

@AndrasDeak I have an inkling feeling that'll be coming soon

Mithical

11:42 AM

If they kill chat they'll suddenly discover a massive problem with spam

Tinkeringbell

killing chat also makes you lose a certain amount of control.

Magisch

I still have a pretty bad feeling about that happening

Tinkeringbell

I don't know... I guess I'm more worried about more rules for what can/can't go in chat than chat being killed entirely.

Journeyman Geek

Well that would be fun to enforce

Mithical

Actually, more than just spam. Killing chat will kill off Charcoal, SOBotics, SOCVR, the comment monitoring bots, Bhargav's user stalker bot... moderators will suddenly be unable to coordinate across a single site, let alone across the network... If they're smart, they won't do it. But then again, they fired Shog.

Journeyman Geek

11:45 AM

Pretty much

Hopefully we will have warning 😟

Mithical

@Tinkeringbell If they start dictating more about what's acceptable in chat they better be prepared to enforce it themselves. I'm not enforcing anything I don't support at the moment.

Journeyman Geek

Pretty much

Mithical

An a slightly related note, I find it a bit suspicious that there's this new "#StackOverflowKnows" blog post that just so happens to take precedence over the featured meta posts...

Journeyman Geek

I think blog posts do that

Magisch

@Mithical ever so convenient, that.

Journeyman Geek

11:48 AM

@Magisch I don't think anyone on meta really cares about the blog posts :D

terdon

@JourneymanGeek s/meta//

Journeyman Geek

also the 3 featured posts are also in the FAQ bar

block

thing

PM 2Ring

What percentage of spam gets killed by Charcoal / SmokeDetector, compared to what gets killed by flags from regular users who don't participate in the SmokeDetector stuff?

terdon

@PM2Ring The vast, vast majority is killed by Charcoal

Magisch

impossible to tell without DB access

Journeyman Geek

11:50 AM

@PM2Ring VERY little

Mithical

@JourneymanGeek The ironically named Community Bulletin.

Magisch

and the guy we used to go for that got laid off

Journeyman Geek

@PM2Ring let me put it this way

I got 2500 flags from spam before I became a mod

Magisch

most of charcoal is automated these days

terdon

I used to mod Ask Ubuntu, which is the second most spammed site on the network. I almost never even saw spam flags at all once CHQ was up and running.

Journeyman Geek

11:50 AM

as a mod, I see none, and delete about 20-30 users a day

Magisch

blatant spam only needs one manual flag these days, in any case. Most of the time that's someone from charcoal with the overlay, which allows you to flag in a second or two directly from chat

Journeyman Geek

(when other people don't beat me to it)

terdon

I think I reported maybe 5 posts in a whole year that smokey missed?

Journeyman Geek

Sad thing is....

Yanno who would know the answer?

Shog

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Shog can still take part and contribute a lot, wonder if he will.

terdon

11:53 AM

If he has any sense at all, he'll stay away for at least a while. If only to get over the shock.

Mithical

Anyway, it would be interesting to see SE totally shoot themselves in the foot by killing chat. I doubt they'd even make the connection between the sudden moderation problems and the removal of chat. But maybe I'm cynical.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard in his time. Getting sacked ike that is a gut-punch

PM 2Ring

Thanks, terdon & JourneymanGeek. That's what I suspected. Perhaps it's time to show SO Inc exactly how vulnerable the network's precious content is by turning off the spam killing stuff for a week or so. Keep the data, so the spam can be killed at a later date.

Magisch

@Mithical Imagine the last say, dozen times you thought "That would be so stupid they'd never do that"

terdon

@Mithical You're still assuming they would notice or care about moderation problems, that isn't cynical enough.

Journeyman Geek

11:53 AM

@PM2Ring I think that might hurt, but the folks who run smokey need to agree

@terdon If its SO....

I suspect they will

Mithical

@PM2Ring I was tempted the other day to run the command to stop autoflags. But I resisted.

Magisch

@PM2Ring That was brought up and discussed in charcoal for a while when the monica situation was boiling over, iirc the consensus then was not to do it

terdon

Who would? Most of the people who even used the sites are gone.

Magisch

although that leads to the interesting conclusion, who even makes the call on that now

most charcoal people are around less or flat out left

Andras Deak

@Magisch we had Shog then

Mithical

11:55 AM

Side note... a large percentage of the people who created Charcoal and maintained it aren't so involved with the project anymore. It's a few people and the automated systems at this point.

Magisch

There's also the fact that when we turn off charcoal we're essentially putting a ton of extra work on the mods

people haven't had to actually look at and flag spam for so long

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Mithical if they'll kill chat they'll also surely kill the whole "moderated by the community" idea in the same blow, getting rid of all moderators, relying on whatever social networks rely on to moderate... if there will be mods, they'll be well hidden behind the scenes.

Andras Deak

@ShadowTheBurningWizard moderated by what?

Magisch

@ShadowTheBurningWizard They can't afford that

Shadow The Burning Wizard

How so?

Magisch

11:56 AM

facebook and twitter run sweatshops of manual paid mods

it's one of their biggest cost centers

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Ordinary users don't care a bit about spam and clutter of crap.

Magisch

facebook spends dozens of millions paying moderators in third world countries

SE simply doesn't have the money for that

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Magisch because they have millions upon millions of posts.

Magisch

Or maybe, if they shut down all but the very most profitable sites

PM 2Ring

@JourneymanGeek Of course. I certainly don't advocate doing anything that's permanently destructive. I wouldn't be on the network if I didn't care to preserve the quality of the content. But SO Inc needs to understand that that content requires active expert curation.

Mithical

11:57 AM

@ShadowTheBurningWizard I don't think they quite get how moderation on their own sites work. I doubt it'd be intentional that they'd be killing community moderation, it would simply be a result of ignorance and finally getting rid of those "weird chat rooms" that have caused a lot of problems in the past.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

I gather in SO numbers, it will cost thousands, not millions.

Magisch

in SO Numbers if they shut down most sites besides say 5 or 6 I'd guess that's around 15-20 full time positions

conservative estimate

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Magisch make it $1 per hour... 20 hours a day... how much you get?

20*30*20

(per month)

Magisch

Thats not how this works

SO would need actual professionals

Shadow The Burning Wizard

lol

Magisch

11:59 AM

if you look at facebook etc they barely get rid of actually illegal shit

John Dvorak

only because they have to

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Magisch Looks like these are gone now :(

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Of course it needs, but that's the last thing that interests the people who now make the decisions.

John Dvorak

facebook likes its scammer haven. It brings them money.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Also true.

Magisch

12:00 PM

yeah but actually getting rid of 90% moderation alltogether would not turn this into quora, it would become much worse

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@πάνταῥεῖ or suspended.

But I still believe the first step will be closing down the meta sites, before closing chat.

Magisch

^maybe they won't get rid of chat alltogether just disallow use for anyone but mods

John Dvorak

I'm not gone. I'm just on permanent hiatus, watching the fireworks and wondering if they're ever going to allow the firefighters on their premises.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Poetic ^

handing a silver harp to @JohnD

πάντα ῥεῖ

It's still worth having popcorn while watching the decay.

John Dvorak

12:03 PM

and occasionally customering in those parts that aren't quite on fire just yet.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@πάνταῥεῖ COR that pops? Awesome! :P

πάντα ῥεῖ

I am thinking of myself as a prophetic person :P

@ShadowTheBurningWizard You're an ole language nazi nitpicker ;-)

Shadow The Burning Wizard

bows

πάντα ῥεῖ

bowing back

Shadow The Burning Wizard

claps on @πάνταῥεῖ's back

πάντα ῥεῖ

12:11 PM

ty

PM 2Ring

@ShadowTheBurningWizard Maybe they don't, and maybe SO Inc don't care much either. Spam makes a site look bad & low quality. OTOH, inappropriate ads also give users a bad impression, and SO Inc don't seem too concerned about those...

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I use chat so I can moderate more effectively 🤣

πάντα ῥεῖ

@PM2Ring All the upcoming decisions seem to come from ROI calculation Excel sheets. There's apparently no interest from SEI in keeping the content (future or historically gained) high quality.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@πάνταῥεῖ you missed the sharp stick in my hand.... ;)

πάντα ῥεῖ

ty

Shadow The Burning Wizard

12:17 PM

@PM2Ring exactly.

@πάνταῥεῖ so you love pain? hmm... so many new ideas come to mind.... :P

πάντα ῥεῖ

NDA

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@πάνταῥεῖ you sign first

!!/sign NDA

SmokeDetector

@ShadowTheBurningWizard No such command 'sign'.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

:(

πάντα ῥεῖ

Isn't it obvious that you must have masochistic tendencies when moderating and curating sites from SEI voluntarily? :-P

Shadow The Burning Wizard

12:25 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ some would say sadistic but yeah.... it means something isn't 100% normal... :D

πάντα ῥεῖ

Keep in mind that this applies for both of us!

Mithical

Oh cool, there's a keyboard shortcut path to the timeline now. Cool.

πάντα ῥεῖ

I am heavily thinking about alternative hobbies when the ship has sunken completely :-/

@Mithical Shog9's last gift to the community :(

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Mithical nice!

PM 2Ring

A couple of hours ago I re-read this answer by Tim Post about the changes that were made a year or so ago to try and attract & retain new users. Those changes indicate that SO Inc is concerned about the impressions & experience of new users.

πάντα ῥεῖ

12:31 PM

@ShadowTheBurningWizard Well, thy know there's a new normal, which has taken place.

PM 2Ring

But they don't seem to understand that the huge majority of such users have little motivation to become regulars, even if the new user experience were perfect. On tech & science sites we get tons of low quality homework questions from "disposable" accounts.

They don't want to leave evidence of cheating on homework, and it's easy enough to just make a new account each time they have a new question. And of course, plenty of people who use the sites don't even bother making an account, they're smart enough to find their answers using Google, etc...

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@PM2Ring this was before the new CEO

The direction SO/SE is going now tramples everyone, new or veteran alike.

PM 2Ring

@ShadowTheBurningWizard True, but they're still trying to maximize traffic, and growth of the userbase is a nice statistic to show potential investors.

πάντα ῥεῖ

That's one of the reasons I am suspended for a whole year, while I had
a (mumble) fairly innocent discussion with another user why a VLQ question should be closed (after being asked so), and claimed what loss it should be if a new contributor could be chased away from my actions.

It's Over

It's now clear to me that the internal tension within the community between those who want to leave and those who want to stay is real.

Journeyman Geek

12:36 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ technically you would be suspended a week and a month before no?

It's Over

Depending on whichever a post implies, it receives negative feedback (and downvotes, I guess implied by correlation, but that's tangential) from the other

I just hope it's not a bubble that would burst in the future.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, I know about the 3 strikes rule. But it was Tim single handedly. :(

Journeyman Geek

Well, mods and CMs typically have the ability to do so for a reason

It's always single handed

@It'sOver if someone wanted to leave they would

It's Over

No I'm referring to the recent debates under community–company relations related posts

Journeyman Geek

So am I 😁

PM 2Ring

12:41 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say there (but I often find your language a little hard to follow). But if you said something like "who cares if closing the newbie's question scares them away", I can understand a mod disciplining you for that, even if that mod doesn't personally feel comfortable with all of the implications of the Welcoming Wagon initiative.

Journeyman Geek

We want something different

It's Over

I want cake

Journeyman Geek

I want my network with a heart. Others want more revenue. Others want to see the world burn . Or for the network to reflect their values

πάντα ῥεῖ

@PM2Ring And such I know, and even feel worse a bit :(

Journeyman Geek

The cake.... Is a lie

It's Over

12:42 PM

:O NO WAY

πάντα ῥεῖ

@It'sOver All I can offer is popcorn

PM 2Ring

@πάνταῥεῖ Ah, ok. So it was Tim Post who suspended you. I assumed it was "just" a regular diamond mod.

It's Over

@Mithical How the heck is a spark supposed to help you in a fight.

πάντα ῥεῖ

As an alternative we could try copporn :D

It's Over

Unless it's some nuclear device

πάντα ῥεῖ

12:48 PM

> youtube.com/watch?v=PIJ7kwAvmCY

yivi

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1218709503379525632.html

3

Journeyman Geek

Thank you. I was meaning to read that thread when I got home

πάντα ῥεῖ

@yivi Yeah, that's a concise and clear statement about the situation.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Yellowcake

Yellowcake (also called urania) is a type of uranium concentrate powder obtained from leach solutions, in an intermediate step in the processing of uranium ores. It is a step in the processing of uranium after it has been mined but before fuel fabrication or uranium enrichment. Yellowcake concentrates are prepared by various extraction and refining methods, depending on the types of ores. Typically, yellowcakes are obtained through the milling and chemical processing of uranium ore, forming a coarse powder that has a pungent odor, is insoluble in water, and contains about 80% uranium oxide, which...

Bon Appetite! :P

πάντα ῥεῖ

> youtube.com/watch?v=a01QQZyl-_I

Transcript for