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12:48 AM
Hi, does anyone know why my comment on the agreement was deleted? It didn't include any personal attacks or anything that might trigger the warning by @JourneymanGeek's comment
Probably because it only served to fuel a dumpster fire?
Now you have seen everything: Pig Facial Recognition
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Did you actually see my comment, or are you just assuming that?
There's a reason why I put a question mark at the end.
1:04 AM
My comment was something like: Monica shouldn't have to "apply for possible reinstatement", especially when you (as in SE) have already admitted that you made a mistake
It had received around 30 upvotes when I last checked
So...either 13+ users flagged it, or a moderator deleted it. Nothing more I can confirm.
mmm, that's why I pinged Journeyman in the comment, since they were the one who most likely deleted it
@JoKing I don't get why folks get that idea :D
But I can explain, sure
A few things.
Firstly - that sentiment has been expressed, multiple times in answers across many many questions
Stuff's messy but its pretty clear people feel so
Secondly, comments are meant to be temporary and for clarifications
While we do use them 'off label' - if someone flags them as no longer needed, unkind or rude, we review them and act accordingly
The "warning" accompanied a comment lock - since there were 250 comments on the post previously
Which included what you said. And if the intended audience was the staff - they could read it if they were inclined
Also, I'd like to add that they have probably been told the same thing multiple times in comments.
> Firstly - that sentiment has been expressed, multiple times in answers across many many questions
Its probably been said several hundred times in comments
Not even kidding
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog done
1:13 AM
If comments on the post have been moved to chat before, I'd recommend checking out the chat room to see if your comment would be a repost of a moved comment before making it.
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog just so I have confirmation. Yanno the question you flagged about a bounty? Can you see if the bounty is gone?
I don't see a bounty, but I do not see you making a mistake with such a thing
@JourneymanGeek Yep, animuson removed the bounty (but for some reason didn't dismiss the flag).
(Might as well get the easy ones out of the way first :D)
@JourneymanGeek All of those are valid points and explain the reasoning... but
@JoKing But is a dangerous word :D
@JoKing in simple terms, any comment can be removed, when we get around to it
1:21 AM
Without that feedback it feels just so frustrating, like you (plural) are censoring opinions, hiding posts behind comment locks and now historical locks.
@JoKing We try to leave feedback but...
Imagine what happens when we need to explain standing policy a few hundred times :D
sometimes... twice.
The comment there was to explain the comment lock, and give folks a chance to cool down without locking answers
Here's a really difficult thing for me. Staff are my users too. Even the ones I care less about :D
and they deserve the same standard of care other folks get
Even if its hard
"There's been 125 comments on this already" + comment locks kinda indicates "erm, too many comments"
oh sorry 250.
....which one has 125?
1:38 AM
I can't fault you for enforcing a fundamentally broken system
It's just that Meta SE isn't meant for discussion
and it's impossible for discussion to happen anyway when one side doesn't respond, and the other side is restricted and censored in how they can talk

Views of MSE

Dec 9 '19 at 15:48, 43 minutes total – 186 messages, 12 users, 51 stars

Bookmarked Jan 3 at 1:29 by jscs

@JoKing MSE is kinda for discussion. And IMO, that's not where the system is fundamentally broken.
They should have gone ahead and renamed comments, but that didn't happen.
And Comments are not meant for discussion. Its ok to be critical of the company. Just that folks seem to assume the rules we've always had and worked don't really count cause "things are different"
There's a few issues with comments for discussion - they're noisy, scale badly and are hard to keep track of
@JourneymanGeek The only experience I've had on MSE outside of the Monica situation was my own discussion getting shut down out of frustration
@JoKing in which case you have a small sample size.
Ah that question
@JoKing in context - that question had been asked multiple times cause of the leak
I've also been seeing all the posts in the Monica situation getting shutdown and censored too
1:50 AM
Perhaps...the reasons they are being deleted is something other than the mere viewpoint being expressed?
@JoKing I already addressed that
and there's a significant amount of leeway we give folks
At the end of the day though, considering both parties involved settled, its also important MSE has space for other discussions
i'm not complaining that they're being shutdown or that it's unfair
especially considering the attempt to push more stuff to "the loop"
it's just that it means that it is impossible to publicly discuss anything related to a controversial topic under this system
@JoKing Impossible? There's pages of posts discussing it
Light moderation dosen't mean no moderation
1:59 AM
okay, let me just post a comment on the agreement question... hmm
> "There's been 125 comments on this already" + comment locks kinda indicates "erm, too many comments"
So I should post an answer then? (if it were possible)
@JoKing Would that add something the other 3 pages of answers do not?
Would it be an exact duplicate of the other answers? (and I bet many of them currently are)
What should I do then, leave a silent upvote on another answer? Comment +1, i agree, thanks?
2:08 AM
how do I channel my impotent frustration without being silently removed?
@JoKing If its impotent frustration, its pretty pointless
And if we're removing comments as noise, silence is kinda the goal
So all I can do is just leave?
@JoKing Or work out if your comments or answers add something new to the conversation
even if I had something new, the post is locked forever
and if I posted a new question, it would be gone in minutes
@JoKing Would it be a new question?
Or an old question reasked?
2:17 AM
Does it matter? If it were even tangentially related to Monica, or to SE not responding to anything, it would be vapourised like that
and I don't trust that I can post anything well written enough to be accepted
Well - I can't promise anything, but stuff like that is what determines the survival of the post.
The last question I wrote and put effort into, with statistics, sources and links to previous discussions was deleted and replaced with a two sentence post by an established user
and that was about something far less volatile
and what would it accomplish, when I haven't ever seen staff actually respond to anything?
All I can do is wait for some sign of imrpovement or anything from SE...
and I've already done that, been doing that for the last few months
2:42 AM
@V2Blast brews a cup of earl grey tea for @V2Blast
sorry for venting
@JoKing brews a cup of passionfruit tea for @JoKing
3:06 AM
@Catija New info. Yes, it was definitely eaten because after the timeout it didn't automagically appear. There are two more close votes, but they are for OT and not duplicate; that begs the question: if someone subsequently closes for a duplicate does the sheep become the shepard (instead of my account signing the auto generated comment would the first person after the timeout become the signator)?
Yeah, I checked if it'd just been deleted and it wasn't.
I think that someone has an answer to what happens if a duplicate close voter deleted the duplicate message and then someone else votes to close as the same duplicate question...
It'd be the same, probably.
But the comment isn't necessary... the OP should still see the banner...
I've come across this case frequently. If a previous voter deletes their autocomment, a new comment is posted by the next voter.
3:45 AM
We should encourage people not to delete the auto comment, I suspect that they delete it to prevent replies from people whom don't know how to see whom is in the review queue prior to the final vote being cast (or the close reasons being voted against, and expiring).
4:02 AM
From what I can determine the OP needs at least a reputation of 250 to see close(X) number before the banner comes up (if it does). Being able to see incoming close votes gives them a chance to improve their question. If people delete the comment it unfairly denies them that opportunity.
4:24 AM
@Rob Yep, I edited an FAQ a few days ago to mention that.
@Rob True.
5:07 AM
That said, I have a big FR planned on a full rework of the FAQ model. It's rather convoluted and messy in its current form.
5:18 AM
1 hour later…
:/ I haven't gotten to that backlog :D
They're busy today I guess
Oh they're not on my current smokey backlog
(I've had multiple things go wrong today, but its working :D)
downstairs folks are renovating so its noisy. Helped dad find a place to replace his car tyres (which was fun, since we went to the wrong service station, and then the one we were supposed to go two, and then we found the island of misfit cars this wierd old enclave with like 40-50 vehicle workshops.
And I have an upset stomach...
7:30 AM
> Notice removed Reward existing answer by animuson♦
Surprised it wasn't deleted, but not surprised it got vote shield.
That's one way to answer the question.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard It can't be deleted, it's almost certainly part of the agreement between SE and MC.
@Mithical well it was read by enough people
@ShadowTheBurningWizard dosen't matter.
It needs to serve as a reference.
7:32 AM
and the lock's cause the comment lock I threw on last week didn't work
So why let people answer it, if it's only a reference? Why not post in the blog?
@ShadowTheBurningWizard locking it to start with would have been worse
@JourneymanGeek no... I'm 100% sure the lock is to stop the downvotes.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard naw
there's a lot of anger elsewhere on the post.
I've seen a good chunk of it :/
7:33 AM
comments, answers.
See the current comments
Besides, I don't think OP has any rep to lose. And that probably cements her view meta's a terrible toxic place.
seems like a chicken and egg problem
is meta bad because it is mad at you or is meta mad at you because you think it is bad
meta is mad.
But its a crowd that needs a while to get to know and work with
I think that bridge is burned tbh
7:37 AM
It is
I don't see meta ever being anything but antagonistic in the future unless they do something like fire every manager above supervisor and start over, which they won't and which wouldn't really fix anything anyways
But meta's one of spaces. I've got to try to do right by it :)
@Magisch eh, I disagree, but Its going to take a willingness to give folks space to do things, and a slight change in direction
@Magisch they can fix by changes in the management, promoting the good folks.
@Magisch the current CM team, with sufficient resources could turn it around. And that could also mean more CMs
e.g. if Yaakov will become Director of Communication, my faith in SE will be restored.
As a developer, he doesn't have real power.
7:40 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard the problem with that idea is that you don't know who mucked things up
But I do, at least got my own opinion.
Asking people to do be fired
right, but it might be wrong.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I actually think that's a waste.
@JourneymanGeek of a good developer?
7:41 AM
Why move someone who is doing a brilliant job in his track to a different track
for all we know someone else made the initial mistake and the managers just took responsibility to protect them
and to not throw them under the bus
@JourneymanGeek they did it with balpha too
He became something related to design before leaving, I think.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I mean, he's doing a excellent job where he is. Dualclassing works.
But community often needs its own folks.
@Magisch so noble of them. </sarcasm>
@ShadowTheBurningWizard You either stop people when they are about to do something .... regrettable, or you protect them
7:43 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I get where you're coming from but there's not really a way we can know
@JourneymanGeek or you expect them to admit their own mistakes all by their own.
As they say in the military, praise in public, scold in private
@ShadowTheBurningWizard If folks did that, on their own, it would be a lovely world :D
but that needs a very different culture
Full with light and ponies...
7:44 AM
@Magisch I wonder if it matters for the mood of meta.
@JAD Getting meta back to normal is a start
then working out what leverage we have, :D
@JAD probably not, but then again, nuance rarely matters to a group of people who are ticked off
Its harder to write off meta if it actually works better than whatever pie in the sky idea they have.
@Magisch some of that is dying out.
blah, there's an article I want to share, but I'm sure it would be mis-interpreted
@Magisch thats my point, much of the anger appears to be directed at some public persons. I don't think it matters anymore whether they are protecting others, or did it themselves
@JAD and a lot of it is ... pretty much an opportunity to raise old grudges, or start new ones.
7:48 AM
@JAD yeah. I don't think meta will ever go back to normal until they publicly fire some people
I want the envelope back!!!!!!1!!!
which they won't so we'll just have to deal with angry meta
Anyone here except @Bart and @rene remember what's the envelope? ;)
@Magisch eh. Its getting there.
Kintsugi (金継ぎ, "golden joinery"), also known as Kintsukuroi (金繕い, "golden repair"), is the Japanese art of repairing broken pottery by mending the areas of breakage with lacquer dusted or mixed with powdered gold, silver, or platinum, a method similar to the maki-e technique. As a philosophy, it treats breakage and repair as part of the history of an object, rather than something to disguise. == Origin == Lacquerware is a longstanding tradition in Japan, and at some point kintsugi may have been combined with maki-e as a replacement for other ceramic repair techniques. While the process is...
The cracks won't ever be gone
I also don't fully remember it, just that it was a nice thing that worked well, until Jeff killed it, replacing it with the inbox and achievements lists we have today. (Think the envelope was mix of both?)
7:50 AM
@JourneymanGeek I was thinking that after the last couple of episodes before this one. Turns out the anger never goes away, it just doesn't get talked about for a while
but we can put something back together from the mess.
hold onto your hat for the next iteration when it happens
Meta also isn't currently all angry about one thing. Meta is annoyed about a heck of a lot of different things.
@Magisch and yet, what got us this far is focusing on things that need fixing, over people.
Meta is just angry.
@JourneymanGeek the worst is still ahead. And not sausage.
7:51 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard could be. And I have a front row seat of it.
@JourneymanGeek yeah and SE staff are on the stage itself.
I'm at the point where I'm waiting for someone to put up a competitor and waiting for the communities I care about to move to it
(getting tomatoes thrown at them so far)
when that happens I'll drop stuff here and move on
7:52 AM
But eh, what's the point of being here if I don't try?
I understand something is in the works already
@Magisch they did alternative to Writing.SE, even posted link to it on the meta site.
@Magisch SU's unlikely to move. At worst get merged into SO ._.
Some other small sites can get alternative too, but not SO.
@Magisch See my profile.
7:53 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard eh, Its just a place. and if you think about it SO's main value is as a way to sell enterprise or teams
saying SO can't get an alternative is foolish imo
the internet is littered with the remains of "monopolies without an alternative"
I'll just remind you how quickly and completly myspace died
.... I was going to mention it
Nothing's too big to fail. I'd rather not SE fail
7:55 AM
@Magisch 10 years passed... not a single alternative arised. And I'm sure people tried, a lot.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard never any crisis this big.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard because it didn't need to
they went through 10 years on relatively few big blunders
and there's lots of smaller alternatives
@JourneymanGeek I think it doesn't really affect SO core yet. Unless you have stats showing decline of answers rate?
Can't see them on SO :D
7:58 AM
@JourneymanGeek SEDE?
The only two sites I got analytics, I'm a mod too :D
@JAD ... my SQL wasn't that good when it wasn't rusty :D
Baking soda and vinegar, and then steel wool. Works wonders on rust if it's not too far along.
@JourneymanGeek what do we want to know, average answers/question over time?
A: Are there any observable effects of a "strike"?

GlorfindelThis SEDE query compares (on each main site) the number of questions and answers posted last week (Sunday September 29th up to Saturday October 5th) with the week before it. We've seen an 1.38% increase in the number of questions and a 3.48% decrease in the number of answers. My guess is that thi...

@JAD no idea
8:06 AM
Doesn't look shocking, although it has been declining a bit
@Glorfindel huh. Nice. Hello to you too! :)
I'd be careful about that. Something smaller may work for a while, but in the end it's going to end up having the same growing pains as SO/SE...

You start with a group of likeminded people, and if that group does stick together and no one leaves you might not need new people... but when new people arrive that aren't as likeminded, you'll end up with conflict.

You start with a group that has a certain knowledge level about stuff. As the group sticks together and learns, it becomes more expert-y. What happens when new people arrive, that ask questions that the 'experts' deem to easy?
@ShadowTheBurningWizard brews a cup of Affogato for @Glor
8:07 AM
!!/beer @πάνταῥεῖ
@ShadowTheBurningWizard No such command 'beer'.
@Tinkeringbell just because a new place can go wrong doesn't mean it has to
I wonder where the drop-off at jan 1 2019 comes from: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1177387#graph
8:09 AM
@Magisch I know... saying be careful isn't the same as saying don't do it :)
I'd miss you here though.
if it buys you another 10 years before those growing pains culminate in firing a mod in such a way, that's a win in my book :P
So, then you have another 10 years... or... you can say the growing pain has already happened here and you don't need another one in 10 years ;)
none of us can look that far into the future
for all we know the earth could be a radioactive crater before the end of this year
@Tinkeringbell uh, given how fondly people look back on the early days, I think some would prefer the growing pains to the drama we have now
@JAD Roomba. It cleans up abandoned questions older than a year.
8:14 AM
@Glorfindel gotcha
Those don't have answers, so the average answer count goes up.
@JAD good question...
@Glorfindel but the graph show answer count, no?
i.e. there was a drop in the average answers count
@ShadowTheBurningWizard average answer count per question, keyed on question date
There's also a smaller drop between Dec 4th and Dec 5th, corresponding to the RemoveDeadQuestions task.
8:16 AM
@JAD well in theory we have a framework to prevent a lot of the messups. Question is will it be followed
@V2Blast Brown!
and one between Dec 26th and Dec 27th, corresponding to RemoveAbandonedClosed.
Also there's a few deeper issues - but those need a bit more investment in the community than we see now
@JourneymanGeek I don't think there's any chance of that happening. We'll get either nothing, or something stupid and counterproductive, and not expecting that is setting yourself up for disappointment
the one constant in the past 2 years has been that if nothing else, you can count on SE to do nothing or something awful as a response to anything that comes up. That doesn't mean this isn't still a place worth contributing to, just that you can't expect the company to help.
8:19 AM
@Glorfindel and of course the general decline that can be explained by newer questions having had less time to garner answers
Yes, that trend is clearly visible. It's just nice to see the oddities and attribute them to certain characteristics of the system.
@Magisch well no. But one can nag 😁
> so in fact the rest of points in the graph are the outliers.
8:47 AM
And in the meantime, typical winter in Israel...
So far the authorities blame the global warmth.
meanwhile most of australia is still literally on fire
@Mithical hope you're doing better than that? ^^
@Magisch yeah.... bit worse, I'd say... even though there are casualties here as well.
Two people (a couple) died in an elevator that got stuck and flooded.
One drowned yesterday while trying to rescue other people...
And more. :/
but it's ok, climate change isn't real
Some say it's natural process, and humanity has little to do with it.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I mean they closed off all the roads n and out of town last night because of flooding but they're open again.
8:54 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard yes, things got heated recently ... wait ...
Is January too early to complain it's just too hot?
If you don't want to kluun 200 kilometers complaining is fine I guess
@Tinkeringbell we're looking at 11C here
@Mithical you live near נהריה?
@Magisch Yeah, similar stuff here... I walked to the store yesterday and at the end I just walked without a jacket...
8:57 AM
@rene lol
@ShadowTheBurningWizard no
@Tinkeringbell I didn't take a jacket with me
@Tinkeringbell yes
@Magisch same here, today
But average is around 14-15
(I think)
10 right now.
8:58 AM
definitely not normal for january
it was already way too warm in december and november
@Magisch That too... though I read we might not break any heat records as predicted... that's something?
What about daily pic? @Mith
it's not so daily anymore
I posted one yesterday :P
yesterday, by Mithical
user image
@Mithical sob
Sorry JNat spammers are too lazy to post on more than one site lately... no network spammers yet. But have a tea instead! ;)
!!/tea JNat
9:04 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard brews a cup of earl grey tea for @JNat
thank you ;)
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Can you please remove meta.stackexchange.com/questions/340864/… as a duplicate target from meta.stackexchange.com/questions/341816/…? That is a completely different, unrelated issue.
Also, why was it reviewed "Leave Closed"?
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog no. I reopened and retagged it.
No idea what it was a discussion.
9:08 AM
@V2Blast brews a cup of passionfruit tea for @V2Blast
ooh. yum.
!!/lick @V2Blast
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Thanks; that's exactly what I initially wanted.
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog not really, by saying "remove one of the dupe targets" you implied to leave it still closed
I figured people who reviewed "Leave Closed" thought the fact that the target was historically locked to be irrelevant, and I wanted to know why. (cc @Glorfindel)
9:11 AM
Maybe :)
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I try to respect consensus when there appears to be one, even if it's against what I prefer; I saw the unanimous "Leave Closed" review and thought of upholding that.
Getting better and better... the SharePoint search rest service reports a different number of total results for each page in a result set....
First page claims there are 34 results....
Second one says the results are 32
The third then yells "nope, we have 31 results"
Its slowly weeding out the week and the sickly
Fourth believes the results are 34 again....
and so on.
In the end, the results were 36.
9:32 AM
@Hitodama Google is the same.
It starts with something like "6000 results" then it gets less and less as you wade through the pages.
Guess they're using some algorithm that get "assumed results" to have it faster.
Q: Why do these Google search result counts appear to be inconsistent?

bgoldstI was reading about options (the financial instruments), and found that both "option expiration date" and "option expiry date" are commonly used terms for the same thing. I decided I would use Google search result counts to try and get a quick sense of which term is more widely used. So here are...

> but we have Google employees on the record saying that these numbers are estimates
Looks like Microsoft use the same algorithms, or more likely, Google API
@ShadowTheBurningWizard from Microsoft Connect page:
> Hi, this is by design when you use duplicate trimming, as trimming the full result set is time consuming, so it will re-calculate as you are paging.
..... I could point out that I am NOT using duplicate trimming.....
10:06 AM
@Hitodama Are you sure? :P
It lacks a 'maybe' button :P
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog It was a duplicate of my answer to the post notices announcement question.
> <span class="sunset shimmer line" style="width: 60%"></span>
wonder how long it will take for someone to notice the "sunset" class I added
10:24 AM
Can a span have width?
if you make it display:block, sure ....
So just use div... No?
yes, but be warned I know nothing about CSS ...
@Glorfindel Yes, I'm aware. It would be good to know, though, why you believed that the fact that the target was historically locked wasn't relevant.
The historical lock meant it could no longer be responded to or updated, and in my mind it doesn't make sense to close in that case even if there's an answer there.
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I wasn't aware of that, or at least didn't realize that at the moment.
10:32 AM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard that is SharePoint CSS
it doesn't follow logic
@Glorfindel In the reopen review, you were shown a diff, which clearly indicated that in the added text.
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Not true: Mods can still edit. So the tag can be updated when it's fixed. If there are new problems, new question, like the comment there says.
You can then link to that answer as being relevant but not the same.
In this case, they're exactly the same.
Sorry, I was under the impression that because of that, you were well aware of that fact, and still disagreed with that reasoning. I wanted to know why, but it turns out that it's a moot question
@Tinkeringbell They aren't meant to be edited except under exceptional circumstances. Also, if I'd like to respond directly to the staff member (e.g. to a clarification request or a decline reason), there is no way for me to do so.
Shog will complain about it.
Yaakov seems to be the one handling post notices so I don't know what Shog suddenly has to do with it...

But perhaps not being able to ping employees there isn't the end of the world.
Q: The historical lock on the new post notices announcement should be removed and replaced with something else

Sonic the Anonymous HedgehogNew Post Notices are live network-wide, the original announcement of the new post notices, has been historically locked. I understand the intention of doing so: the announcement has run its course, and new things should be posted as new questions rather than as answers to it. However, the histor...

@Tinkeringbell Shog has written things before and reminded people repeatedly about the purpose of historical locks.
10:38 AM
Mkay. Well, I feel we're overthinking this, if it becomes a problem we can handle it once it actually is a problem.
Also, where should I do it, then? Chat? Make a reconsideration request?
I'm sure you'll find way, like you always do.
@Tinkeringbell I'm of the opinion that it should never turn out to be an issue in the first place.
Yeah, which is often a very annoying thing to have to deal with.
I disagree. If we're going to close every loophole before actually doing anything we're not getting anything done.
Better to ask for forgiveness than permission.
In this case though, stop bugging the people that close-voted that question as a dupe. It is a dupe of the answer there. Whether or not we should do something about the post is a different question that you've already raised and will get an answer to in due time.
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog ... did you read the comment?
Cause I locked it
Based on a flag
and I said
> There's about 2 pages of answers and a month and a bit. I've had a word with Yaakov, or vice versa, and well- at this point new posts to report new bugs are probably going to be neater. If its here - no need to repost. Else, feel free to handle it as per any other issue on the network :). Despite what the post notice says - its not off topic. It is however of historical significance –
10:45 AM
Unfortunately, using that specific mark also has an unintended consequence, which I understand you may not have been aware of. So I raised that in a meta post.
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog uhm
You're assuming that I don't know what I'm doing
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog and I think the intent of the lock is very clearly spelled out
Meh, there's no use discussing this here. I've made a meta post about it; let's let the community decide.
@JourneymanGeek now now now.... do we really have to tell you? You should have said "It was I that locked it"
Or even better.....
> It me
I locked it.
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