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12:00 PM
Although they may be filled with far left nationalist idiots. Sigh.
 
You'll make an excellent officer, if only given the chance.
 
@AdrianMole Oh yeah, getting into intelligence would be, uh, fun... although they haven't sent me an summons for those yet, despite the very obvious push in that direction during the process.
 
@terdon what the Greek army is doing, anyway?
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Not much.
 
You have no enemies... no wars... no rebellions....
 
12:01 PM
Protecting the motherland from... um. Something?
 
Eating yogurt.
 
So it's constant practice, only?
@Mithical lol
Breaking dishes?
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Well that's not entirely true. We are constantly on the brink of war with Turkey and we're the only country we have a land border with that hasn't had a civil war in the last 20 years or so. These are the balkans, not central europe.
 
Ah, Turkey hasn't had a civil war either, but still. Not exactly a calm neighbor.
 
12:02 PM
Also.. is Greece part of the UN? there might be some UN missions they need an army for then?
 
Greece is very much not in a stable region. OK, not at the level of unstable you guys need to deal with, but nowhere near any other place in Europe as far as I know.
@Tinkeringbell Um. Yes, of course it's a part of the UN. Just about everyone is. Unless you were thinking NATO and yes it's a member of that too.
 
@Tinkeringbell it's probably a privilege to be sent to the UN, kind of vacation. ;)
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Um. Again, not if you're sent to the Balkans.
 
@terdon Which one does those wars that bring peace? :P
 
"Vacation" is about as far from the truth as you can get. Think of the Yugoslavian civil war, Kosovo...
 
12:03 PM
I was talking about that one :)
 
@Tinkeringbell Neither. Sadly.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Ehhh...
 
The Siege of Goražde (Bosnian: Opsada Goražda) refers to engagements during the Bosnian War (1992–95) in and around the town of Goražde in eastern Bosnia. On 4 May 1992, Goražde was besieged by the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS). Goražde was one of six Bosniak enclaves, along with Srebrenica and Žepa, surrounded and besieged by the Bosnian Serb Army. VRS began a campaign of indiscriminate shelling, often hitting civilian buildings and inflicting mass casualties. In return, the local units of the Bosnian Ministry of the Interior (MUP) began a campaign of retribution against the Bosnian Serb civilians...
 
I think the Dutch thing in Afghanistan was some sort of UN thingy, so was Sebrenica? So doesn't sound very vacation like.
 
During the Bosnian war, apparently there were UN troops in Gorazde who had no mandate to intervene and could just stand around and watch atrocities around them.
 
12:05 PM
@terdon UN headquarters though?
 
Documented wonderfully in Joe Sacco's absolutely brilliant Safe area Gorazde.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Well sure. IDF headquarters too, for that matter ;)
 
@terdon lol true
 
@terdon Sounds a bit like Srebrenica :/
The Srebrenica massacre, also known as the Srebrenica genocide (Bosnian: Masakr u Srebrenici; Genocid u Srebrenici), was the July 1995 genocide of more than 8,000 Bosniaks, mainly men and boys, in and around the town of Srebrenica during the Bosnian War. The killings were perpetrated by units of the Bosnian Serb Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of Ratko Mladić. The Scorpions, a paramilitary unit from Serbia, who had been part of the Serbian Interior Ministry until 1991, also participated in the massacre. In April 1993 the United Nations (UN) had declared the besieged enclave of...
 
@Tinkeringbell yes, exactly
But yeah. That's the region Greece is in, so its military isn't quite as decorative as you might think for such a small country and member of the EU. Actually, I think Greece has the highest per capita military spending level of the EU.
 
Anyhow... UN "vredesmissies" (peace missions) were the thing I was thinking about as the main reason for having an army over here... not NATO.
 
12:08 PM
Anyway, I didn't have a pleasant service.... it was difficult both physically and mentally, but I made it, and actually happy I did. And will do it again, not due to extreme patriotism, but because I feel I owe something to my country, and all in all, it was a way to learn how "real life" works. You don't get to enjoy everything, and there are unpleasant tasks you should be doing.
 
I'm quite pissed some people here managed to get the draft extended to females too... I don't like the army or war. Now, if someone starts something I might be in trouble too :/
 
So yeah, Greece has the highest military spending as a percentage of GDP (not per capita) in the EU.
@Tinkeringbell That seems absolutely fair to me. If you're going to put one half of the population through this crap, then you should put the other half through it too.
 
And in 'total monies'? How does Greece's GDP hold up to the rest of the EU, especially after the financial crisis?
 
Unless you want to argue that women are somehow less suited for being soldiers? ;)
 
12:11 PM
@terdon Yeah, so we could also put neither through that crap? :P
 
@Tinkeringbell Now you're talking
 
@terdon Yes very! We have periods ;)
 
@Tinkeringbell pretty damn low. But that's how it goes
 
Makes us totally insuitable for the army, very hard to discover if you're shot or not ;)
2
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I've been told that no matter what position I get I'm going to have a difficult service simply because of how different I am from the average Israeli teenager.
 
12:11 PM
@Tinkeringbell Please. If anything, that'll make you more deadly!
 
@terdon Ah, yeah... there's bound to be some horror psycho killers too :P
Not exactly military disciplined though... just out of control killing and atrocities ;)
Very bad to send on a peace mission :P
 
Actually. Given the level of male chauvinism and misogyny of your average army, you could probably destroy an entire battalion if you send out a dozen women armed with tampons.
 
@Tinkeringbell .
 
@Mithical That's a very nice period. Now go have some chocolate, get a warm blanket and a heating pad, and curl up in misery!
 
@Mithical true. I remember few "different" folks who served with me during the טירונות, and it was really hard for them. Each and his own reason, I became friends with two of them, but only until our ways in the army were split, I didn't keep in touch. :/
 
12:14 PM
@terdon XD... I fear you might be right :)
 
IMO women should be given the option to serve, but not making it a must.
 
If it's a must for anyone, it should be a must for everyone.
 
Yes, they can serve and be awesome soldiers, but it doesn't mean they have to.
 
It shouldn't be a must for anyone.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Equally applicable to men.
 
12:22 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ In ideal world, sure.
Ideally, there shouldn't be any army at all.
 
No, but in this world, if you force one half of the population to serve, then you should damn well force the other half too.
 
@terdon You see, that's where the discussion here went wrong. It should've been: If you don't force one half of the population to serve, you shouldn't force the other half either!
Your phrasing gives the wrong people the wrong kinds of ideas ;)
 
Concription is a bit annoying in peacetime :D
 
I think that women will simply be hurt more badly when they're really not ready for the army service. Of course men will be hurt too, but they're also more "resilient". Hope that makes sense, and probably better change subject before parrot eats us all for lunch.... :P
!!/coffee
 
@πάνταῥεῖ unfortunately its a numbers game
 
12:25 PM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard brews a cup of Ristretto for @ShadowTheBurningWizard
 
@Tinkeringbell Absolutely correct, yes. Thank you.
 
Most folks would not serve a voluntarily, and much like frogs, a good chunk of the military is meant to look big and scary :D
 
@JourneymanGeek America does pretty well with the 'voluntary' thing :P
Something with student debt XD
 
@Tinkeringbell I read a tweet about that
 
The only problem I see with voluntary armies is that you end up with armies made of people who actually want to be in the army and those are the people I would least like to see armed.
 
12:27 PM
@Tinkeringbell America is unlikely to need to defend itself.
 
Admittedly, that isn't a minor problem.
 
and that's when conscription is actually kinda pointful.
 
@JourneymanGeek you say she's not scary enough?
:D
 
@JourneymanGeek Are you kidding? Few countries need to defend themselves more than the US. Largely because of the US's penchant for throwing its weight around and putting its soldiers where they have no business being, but still.
 
@terdon no one would be dumb enough to attack the US mainland :D
 
12:28 PM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard There are few things more terrifying than the sight of a child with an automatic weapon. Brrr.
@JourneymanGeek Well, defending your mainland is only a small part of defending yourself.
 
In a sense - the US army is more an army of "diplomacy by other means" if you want to be charitable
 
And the only ones who could really attack the US mainland easily are Canada and Mexico and neither seems very likely for various reasons.
 
@terdon The US hasn't fought a defensive war since WW2
 
@JourneymanGeek I know. But it depends on your definition of defensive.
 
@terdon hmm
 
12:30 PM
You can make a valid argument that all of America's wars were defending American interests.
 
@terdon I'd say the gulf war was defensive for Kuwait
@terdon many of those interests are "imposing convenience on other nations"
 
@JourneymanGeek and the US was defending its oil. OK, yes, and it's ally. But...
 
@terdon call that soldier "child" in her face and we'll see what happens..... ;)
(I might come to visit you in hospital ;))
 
@JourneymanGeek Ehh, something with planes and towers... if that wasn't an attack :/
 
@JourneymanGeek Sure. I'm not saying they are legitimate, only that you could, if you were being charitable, call them defensive in that they were defending the country's interests.
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I don't want to be close enough to see her face, thank you. But child is what she is.
 
12:31 PM
@Tinkeringbell sure, but.... the US army literally, legally couldn't have done anything about it
 
@Tinkeringbell not by army
Terror is whole different story, and army can't fight it.
 
Lets say the americans wanted to shoot down the planes - it would be the national guard.
 
@JourneymanGeek Which ones? A few of them were actually legal, back in the good old days before Bush and Trump.
 
@JourneymanGeek True, but it did start a war in the middle East to get rid of Taliban, to prevent more terrorist attacks?
 
@terdon the US army can't operate militarily on US soil without approval
 
12:32 PM
@Tinkeringbell Um. That was not the first shot fired in that war. Not by a long shot.
 
I've also heard that was just about oil too though, so not sure.
 
@Tinkeringbell kinda sorta. No oil in afganistan
 
@terdon well, who isn't a child? :)
 
@JourneymanGeek Oh, yes, that's something completely different.
 
@terdon It's one I remember?
 
12:33 PM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard People above 30? :P
 
That region is a mess of interests
 
I might misremember, I was only 10 or so... I thought the wars there came after that.
 
But at least people above 22 or so.
 
I was 12 during the Gulf War
 
12:34 PM
First one?
Bush senior?
 
My only memories consist of me sitting in a closed room with gas mask on the face.
@terdon think so.... 1990
 
@Tinkeringbell If you want to go back enough
At least until the soviet occupation of Afganistan
 
Oh sure, there were whole messes leading up to it, that's true.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard yeah, I was 10. Still remember it quite clearly though.
 
The americans supported anti soviet forces (who both formed the nuclus of the taliban, and more moderate political forces....)
 
12:35 PM
@terdon How did it affect you? What you remember?
 
@JourneymanGeek cough like the Taliban cough
 
@terdon I literally said that
thing is, its not enough to get rid of your enemies
they're making the same mistake with the Kurds, Syria....
 
@JourneymanGeek Are you saying I need to work on my reading comprehension? Are you? Are you?
 
@terdon Yes?
 
If he didn't, I will say it ;)
 
12:36 PM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard My dad is American, so we followed the war quite closely at home.
@JourneymanGeek Well, then you may have a point, damn you!
 
There's few things less messy than international geopolitics
 
Ah-ha! I believe you meant more messy.
 
@JourneymanGeek Red wine stains?
 
Now who's not paying attention?
 
@terdon oh... did he serve in Iraq during the war?
 
12:38 PM
@terdon possibly!
@terdon oh
I'm not entirely paying attention
My mom sent me a bloody important text.
 
!!/pay attention
 
In tamil
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard No such command 'pay'.
 
@JourneymanGeek Is that the right time to say 'finally'?
 
12:39 PM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Oh, good heavens no. He avoided Vietnam but almost volunteered for the Cuban missile crisis, the young fool. But way too old to be in any way involved in Iraq. Not to mention way too political and familiar with the middle east by then (he spent 7 years living in various countries in the middle east).
 
@Tinkeringbell elsewhere :D
 
> Dear Geek, I found someone. Your date is this evening, at 8 PM. Don't be late!
This? ^
 
@JourneymanGeek Are we feeling hopeful? Good news, at least?
 
@terdon UNFORTUNATELY!
You're a bit further down the line for such news :D
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I was hoping for something like that, yeah :P
apparently not though
 
@JourneymanGeek heh, that's fine. But good news or bad?
 
@terdon I'm ok with either.
No news though, is worst :)
 
ah
 
because news requires activity. sigh
 
12:41 PM
@terdon lol. My mom's tried calling about 6 set of parents.
most of them don't pick up the phone
 
Well, that's not good if you want to get rid of your daughters!
 
Phrasing lol
 
looking into the future
seeing @Journeyman's wife
OK, all good.
:P
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard its step 1 of many :D
 
@Tinkeringbell That's a fun sentence to read when you don't know the history
 
@JourneymanGeek Oh, I kinda picked that one deliberately... thought it'd be funny.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard O Great One, teach me your powers!
 
@terdon actually the going rate is a rupee :D
 
@Gimby I like the one that's in the sidebar too :P
 
12:45 PM
@Mithical a simple Look Into The Future spell. It requires a crystal ball, magical dust, and a secret ingredient.
 
(I mean, unless they can't find one. I'll settle for a fiver :D)
 
Totally out of context....
 
Remember to keep your balls covered.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Garlic?
 
12:47 PM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard If you tell me the secret ingredient is love, I might throw up.
 
@JourneymanGeek during winter it's easy
 
Knowing Sha, it is most definitely not love.
 
@terdon of course not! :D
 
It is in all likelihood pee.
 
@Mithical see? That's the correct direction. ;)
 
12:47 PM
0_0
 
" a crystal ball, magical dust, and a secret ingredient" - sugar (crystal), spice (magical dust) and everything nice (the secret ingredient).
 
@Mithical you said it! :D
 
@Gimby So not garlic then? Chocolate?
 
handing ball to @Mith
 
*pupils expanding*
 
12:49 PM
@ShadowTheBurningWizard What, downwind?
 
Oops. There goes my teaching certificate.
 
@Mithical Clearly your pupils have an inflated opinion of themselves
 
They're lazy.
</pun>, in case anyone didn't get that
 
Officer, teacher.... quite the same.
But with little to no gratitude, and no money...
gathering pupils for future @Mith
 
Ah, yes, an eyeball collection. Perfect.
 
12:53 PM
Better than pee, isn't it? :D
 
Not really.
 
lol
@terdon no, South
It's always South.
There lies glory.
 
I'm partial to the North, myself.
 
You're still south from something.
 
Well, Syria.
 
12:55 PM
Yup
During army I visited the משולש few times, where Syria, Lebanon, and Israel "meet". :)
 
On an entirely different note, I wonder how much activity on Writing has dropped in the past couple weeks.
 
?
Why?
I mean, why drop?
Found it!
 
It's not like they have a featured post saying "ABANDON SHIP AND COME TO THIS OTHER BOAT" or anything...
 
@Mithical other boat? There's alternative site users found?
 
s/found/built
 
12:59 PM
hmm
Can be a welcome thing for many, I guess.
 
15
Q: Join us at the replacement for Writing SE

Thomas Reinstate Monica MyronAs outlined in my thread here, I no longer have any desire to remain on Writing SE, and I cannot in good conscience continue to supply content for a company which condones and practices mental and emotional harm against people who disagree with them. However, I have no wish to harm the communit...

 
@Mithical heh, Surprising SE isn't removing it.
After all, it can result in the end of one of their sites...
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Its kinda up to the mods, and them the CMs
@ShadowTheBurningWizard If management cares, its a wake up call. If they don't, they're rid of a site they didn't care much about
 
It harms SE, bottom line. But glad it's there, I'm not a big fan of SE.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard It does
But if folks build a thing that works, cause they're unhappy with SE...
that's kinda how SE got its start
 
1:04 PM
Think I told it before.... I really believe that in few years, only Stack Overflow will remain, and SE will close all other sites. Except maybe the original SOFU trilogy.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard SF's already lost a good chunk of its old core userbase
SU... eh, we're kinda in the funny place where we sorta run ourselves mostly fine
 
hmm, so maybe only SO.
That site sponsorship looks like a last attempt to keep the sites profitable, and if/when it fails....
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard or in a kinda maintainance mode
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard I'd have to see that... I think many smaller communities right now may be in a better place than SO :/
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard finding a business model that works is an ongoing thing
 
1:06 PM
@Tinkeringbell not relevant. Only number of views matter.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard Yeah, that's probably true...
 
Some sites get very heavy traffic... such as Mathematics.
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard SOFU: sign on, or f... off
 
lol that's a good one
Though too many typos
 
1:07 PM
Practically
the sites themselves take very little "cost" to run
the cost is in more of maintaining, growing, and upkeeping the communities
 
@JourneymanGeek menpower
 
personpower
 
Without the sites, they'll also get rid of the CM team
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard or keep it as small as possible
 
Yep SO can do with a single CM
 
1:09 PM
@JourneymanGeek As opposed to now when it's clearly as large as possible, right?
 
Also, no need to worry about cross site design.
 
@terdon Its pretty close to what I'd consider minimal
 
yep
Well, not minimal. Minimal assumes it's juuust enough for the job. The current team isn't.
 
@terdon Its enough if things go well
They... haven't
 
It's under minimal?
 
1:10 PM
underage
 
I'm actually surprised SE hasn't expanded the Jobs thing to sites such as Graphic Design, to be honest. Perhaps less applicable on Science Fiction & Fantasy, but for the technical sites...
 
They ever planned to?
 
@ShadowTheBurningWizard early on supposedly
 
But I felt focusing on jobs was a mistake
too much competition
 
1:11 PM
Well they have the ads in there, it requires minimal effort.... Jobs requires much more, I think.
 
I doubt jobs is ding all that well. For one thing, it's really expensive for employers, so I guess only the big boys will be using it.
We used it briefly once, and it just wasn't worth it for the money they were asking.
 
@terdon it did badly enough that the company shed a ton of people.
and stuff had barely recovered before, well - all this
 
@terdon I looked into it once. It seems to be several times more expensive then comparative job board services, and while it's very nice that they are pro-developer minded in their restrictions on employers, filtering and contact that also substantially lessens the value an employer could derive from it
Overall in my cursory judgement only worth it if you're looking to hire long term highly paid experts and the usual venues aren't yielding useful applications.
 
JAD
My primary feeling with jobs is that it is at best US focused. I rarely see anything I recognise on there
 
@Magisch yes, exactly. And we didn't get any good candidates through it anyway.
 
1:18 PM
vis a vis, my company is still recruiting by word of mouth and scant newspaper adverts. Convincing management who is loath to spend 100€ on a paper advert every 3 months to try SO jobs - not even in the cards.
I had a look at teams too and my coworkers first point was: "Why should we pay for this when mediawiki is free?"
not sure if that is an indictment of our times but "free with prompt and continued free support" is the standard that many competing software products in any space now have to live up to.
 
@Magisch Only until people realize that free is never free? ;)
 
eh. A lot of times free is actually free
see open source
 
... or beer
 
@Magisch Still, that kind of free only works as long as there's enough maintainers to handle all 'prompt and continued support'. After something reaches a certain point, either it's no longer free or the promptness of support drops?
So then you're either stuck with the costs of paying for a framework, or with the cost of switching frameworks.
 
of course, but the allure of "free product" is too great for business types
I could never convince my bosses to pay for an IDE or pay for software where an open source alternative exists.
 
1:30 PM
They're already paying for both here ;)
(at least, I think so).
Magik comes with it's own version of Emacs, and so I think they're paying for both.
 
@Magisch Um. Good? That sounds much better than the more common alternative where bosses refuse to consider perfectly good, free tools because they're uncomfortable with the idea of their being free.
 
JAD
Eh, only Sith deal in absolutes. Neither should be a rule tbh
 
I knew one sysadmin who for some reason was obsessed with Windows and refused to ever consider non-microsoft solutions. So he would basically charge his company 3x the cost of what my friend, in a different group would be getting since he'd base everything on Linux.
@JAD Agreed.
The best tool is the best tool. Sometimes that's the open, free one and sometimes it's the closed one you have to pay for.
 
Embarcadero RAD Studio :(
 
actually windows and office are the two main exceptions, we use those and they frequently bellyache about how expensive they are
 
1:35 PM
That's what I am forced to use, and there isn't any alternative.
 
@Magisch actually that's something I feel SO corp misses
 
Stop complaining about high level luxury problems fellas.
 
the people who will push hardest for teams are folks who're invested in that way to do things
 
I couldnt even convince my coworkers to try teams for free
 
@Magisch why would they? :D
 
1:40 PM
@JourneymanGeek For fun? :P
 
@terdon I used to work for such a company (well... after a take over). They made it a corporate policy to not be reliant on things for which they did not have or could get a support contract, even if the external support would never be able to help with our problems. That was only for software supporting the runtime platform and the company itself though, development tools and such were "our own problem, do what you want".
 
@Tinkeringbell more that people would use tools that they are familiar with/like
 
I tried to argue it might be a good replacement for all the wiki's we have here that no-one ever looks at and that aren't all that searchable... but nothing ever came from it ;)
 
@Gimby these are the actions of management that wants a sue-proof chain of SLAs to "theorethically" prevent outages
 
@JourneymanGeek oh, like that... yeah.
 
1:43 PM
Indeed. I can relate, but support contracts tend to be very pricy so whatever we wanted would go through a route of "Do we have something similar already? Are there cheaper options?" - months of delay.
 
Ugh. That sounds like my mom buying theme park tickets :P
She can spend entire evenings looking up the cheapest ones...
While we don't even have to worry about the money anymore.
 
I leave that to my partner, I just plant the idea in her head that it would be nice to do something and then a few days later trip, entry tickets, sleeping arrangements, etc. are fully planned out with at least 5 different options to choose from :)
 
I like to think I'm pretty frugal but I adhere to a time saved model of evaluating whether or not cost saving is worth
 
@Magisch Yeah, same.
 
1:45 PM
My parents are like @Tinkeringbell's mom, so I'd probably need hypothetical future mrs geek to handle that :D
 
as in, my free time is as valueable as my work time, so any savings need to be worth the time as if I was working the time I spend on them
 
I'm not going to spend 3 evenings if I can't find something within 3 hours ;)
 
@Magisch I tend to do that + cost over time :D
 
@Gimby That would probably work here too, except that mom tends to 'involve' others in her searches by expecting them to keep track of what costs what where.
 
Whatsapp remembers those details for us :)
 
1:47 PM
lol
@Gimby so true. I keep forwarding my mom stuff I sent her before cause she 'loses' them :D
 
@Gimby tech savvy parents are awesome... but I don't have them.
 
Cost is one thing, she goes much further. She makes sure that what we have is actually nice too.
 
That sounds good :)
We usually already have decided what we want to do before looking at costs...
 
It is. And then all I have to do is make sure that her own choice of the five options is not dictated by her incredibly frugal nature ;)
 
there are worse traits then a tendency to undue frugality
 

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