Tavern on the Meta

Stevoisiak

12:01 AM

If 2 users coordinated to accept anothers answer, it’d be a bannable offense.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

I agree that it's scummy, but there are worse things going on here.

In particular, the content of the answer itself.

Stevoisiak

I’m shocked they thought this was a good response to self answer

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Agreed

Stevoisiak

I’m not even sure if I can call it the Streisand effect when the site is calling the issue out themselves

The forest of Reinstate Monica

too far and not yet built. I don't suppose they have the technical ability or people to actually enforce this on a community of largely pissed off software engineers. People are already using workarounds in a ton of ways. — mag 2 days ago

ehehe, this is my expertise :D

Journeyman Geek

12:44 AM

@Stevoisiak eh, There's situations where its ok

I've literally brought up stuff on offsite chat - someone worked out an insane solution that needed to be documented, and I co-ordinated with them to make sure both got posted.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Yeah like I said, I really don't see the problem with what happened with answer attribution.

It's a very minor thing to be upset about.

George Stocker

Of all the problems with SEs post, the attribution isn’t even on my list of things to be upset about.

The biggest upset for me is that it affirms there has been no soul searching on the part of SE inc and how they interact with their community on meta.

This proves they either 1) have not learned their lesson for effective community engagement, or 2) do not care.

2

Either is troubling, but I see signs of both here.

ultimately, what’s the end game? Let’s say your meta users leave. Who are you expecting to fill the void? How are You going to train them up?

how will they get the expertise needed to build and maintain this brave new World you’ve created where you’ve demonstrated you don’t listen or interact positively with your community?

Journeyman Geek

1:00 AM

Well - looks like it'll just get overrun by trolls and people seeking drama.

That said - its pretty overwhelming at the moment, even for folks with a bit of experience running a community

George Stocker

I’m concerned for anyone that chooses to continue to moderate under this brave new world.

2

Journeyman Geek

Its pretty much impossible to interact positively without having some give back to the community

shrug Well, in a way, keeping things at least at a bare minimum of functionality is necessary for the folks who don't care about the community to get stuffed.

And most communities seem... less affected.

Meta's just kinda the place where everything ends up

George Stocker

There is, whether SE wants it to be true or not, a rift between the community and the staff and moderators are standing in the middle. If they stay in the middle too much longer the community will see that as siding with SE and act accordingly.

3

Journeyman Geek

that said, maybe 2-3 months more of this and I think everything is lost

George Stocker

I have it at another month. I hope I’m wrong

The forest of Reinstate Monica

1:05 AM

You guys are more optimistic than I am.

I think it's already lost and SE has already destroyed its relationship with the community.

Journeyman Geek

@TheforestofReinstateMonica At least you have lots of drama to watch.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

yup

George Stocker

I refuse to believe any of the CM team bought into the “remove Monica go fund me ads from people’s profile” move.

Journeyman Geek

That should keep you entertained until it all burns down

@GeorgeStocker man. I've been reading between the lines a lot

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Only problem is that it might bring out the troll in me. :D

Journeyman Geek

1:07 AM

@TheforestofReinstateMonica Its ok, you can still watch if you're suspended.

George Stocker

Which means, If I’m right, the CMs are as frustrated as we are. But given that this is their paycheck they have to suffer as Rome burns.

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker and there's probably some internal politics going on.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek If my old troll self comes out, this won't be my only account.

Journeyman Geek

@TheforestofReinstateMonica Those are still easy

The forest of Reinstate Monica

You'd be surprised.

Journeyman Geek

1:08 AM

I don't ask myself if I'm doing the right thing

George Stocker

No doubt, though If what I understand to be true is true then it’s not a collaborative environment as far as community policy goes, it’s dictatorial.

I could be wrong, but all the tea leaves point to that being the case.

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker I think the only way this makes sense to me is there's just several different pulls on the company

and a certain amount of empire building attempts

George Stocker

Unfortunately, at least publicly, the CEO is OK with the status quo.

Journeyman Geek

So legal shutting everyone else up is probably different people from the initial mess.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

The real problem is YouKnowWho, S*** *****.

Journeyman Geek

1:09 AM

@GeorgeStocker I've no idea where the CEO stands on this

The forest of Reinstate Monica

The one most proud of the damage she caused.

Journeyman Geek

@TheforestofReinstateMonica sigh

George Stocker

If you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree you and the fish will be disappointed, Forest.

Journeyman Geek

I'd rather deal with people I know listen, than constantly tweak people I know could go off on me, and have not demonstrated great people skills.

so, lets not pull her into this. Its still a broader corporate culture that allows this sorta thing to happen the way it did

The forest of Reinstate Monica

I don't think she's the sole problem.

But finding a new director of Q&A would go a long way in regaining trust.

Journeyman Geek

1:11 AM

Its a long term disconnect between the company and its users

and isn't going to be fixed by any one thing.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

true

George Stocker

The community person should be a C level

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker they used to have a vice president for that

George Stocker

They aren’t, which causes a lot of issues

Journeyman Geek

er

The forest of Reinstate Monica

1:12 AM

But don't you think that it's better to at least get rid of someone who is doing active harm?

Journeyman Geek

@TheforestofReinstateMonica I've no idea if she's done anything new lately

actually I took a weekend off the site proper

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Still recovering from the panic attacks? >_>

Journeyman Geek

Watched the mandelorian

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek I took two weeks off. Was actually nice.

Journeyman Geek

also built a preliminary version of my new lab box

George Stocker

1:14 AM

@TheforestofReinstateMonica making light of actual issues does not improve our case.

Journeyman Geek

though, I'm waiting on some parts for it

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@GeorgeStocker I was referring to the "panic attacks" she mentioned, not the actual medical condition which is very severe and which I do not mean to make light of.

Journeyman Geek

@TheforestofReinstateMonica I've had them

The forest of Reinstate Monica

So have I. Drugs are bad, m'kay.

Journeyman Geek

No drugs, except maybe excess caffeine.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

1:15 AM

Drug-induced panic attacks are nasty. Non-drug-induced are nasty as well.

It's weird being unable to speak cohesively.

Journeyman Geek

But yes

I can't even think of what we can do until SE works out what they want to do

George Stocker

@TheforestofReinstateMonica I recognize what you were referring to, I was referring to that as well. We need to take what they say at face value if we want them to take what we say at face value.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@GeorgeStocker I don't want to think that SE is so evil that they have people with severe medical conditions doing things that trigger extreme medical events. I'd rather think that she was just using the term "panic attack" as shorthand for "anxiety attack", even if it trivializes the suffering of those who suffer from genuine panic attacks by comparing them to those who just suffer from anxiety.

George Stocker

@TheforestofReinstateMonica the lede for me on this one is that our behavior is such that it can cause either an anxiety or panic attack

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@GeorgeStocker An anxiety attack makes sense, but a panic attack?

Journeyman Geek

1:18 AM

@GeorgeStocker I think a significant number of users and mods are suffering from both.

and quite a lot can't be mods or functional users cause of recent actions :/

And well - they don't get paid. They did it cause they like the place

@TheforestofReinstateMonica uhm, You might want to quickly consider what you equated this to.

That's a terrible comparison.

Erm. That's still a really bad comparison.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Panic attacks are rough. :/

They shouldn't be made light of. That's my point.

Journeyman Geek

I mean, can we leave the digging themselves deeper into a hole to the professionals? Please?

The forest of Reinstate Monica

What? I'm not talking about false rape accusations. Where did that come from?

Journeyman Geek

I'm going to clear that out shortly. I want you to know why

→ 3 messages moved to Trashcan

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Huddled in the corner in fetal position screaming and shaking uncontrollably because of being asked to talk to a community of programmers? Saying you had a panic attack when you had an anxiety attack is like saying you were mugged when what really happened is you were pushed by someone.

fix'd ^ (better?)

Journeyman Geek

1:24 AM

I suppose. I guess I don't have as much of an emotive response to that.

George Stocker

If you want mutual trust then you have to trust. I trust they meant what they said Re: panic attacks in the same way I expect them to trust what I say.

You can’t ask SE to listen to you if you dismiss what they say to you

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek It's supposed to cause an emotive response.

Journeyman Geek

@TheforestofReinstateMonica uhm. You're literally doing it again.

@GeorgeStocker but you're not going to solve that by antagonising the entire community

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek I didn't know the word itself was what was offensive. Sorry I misinterpreted you.

Journeyman Geek

As a new meta moderator, my first order of business was getting to know folks (better) and earning their trust.

I don't really see anyone higher than a CM even attempting to do that unless necessary

George Stocker

1:28 AM

@JourneymanGeek that’s their problem to solve. Arguing against SEs position only strengthens it and gives it weight

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker It is

but that seems to be all they have been doing lately

George Stocker

Then let’s focus on us and our behavior

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker as far as meta goes? We can't put out the fires if there's random fuel dropped on it.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek In the future, please be more specific. Thanks.

George Stocker

We can list issues for days on end and stay focused on actions and not words

@JourneymanGeek it’s no longer our job to put out the fires on meta se

Journeyman Geek

1:31 AM

@GeorgeStocker to a certain extent - there's pretty much no one else to.

George Stocker

With the latest from SE, they’ve very clearly taken on the role of moderation on meta SE and it would be disappointing if a community moderator assisted in that effort

3

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker In a sense though - there needs to be an effort if meta needs to have value to the community, in spite of, not in assistance to, their action.

The company can handle anything legal demands.

George Stocker

Let them dig their hole, it’s bad to interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.

Journeyman Geek

But there's still a lot of things going on that affect folks who are not doing it

Depends on what your enemy is trying to do ._.

George Stocker

That mindset is being used against you

Journeyman Geek

1:33 AM

Maybe

but its my mindset

George Stocker

The “I need to keep this above water because SE isn’t” allows them to not see the real cost of their action.

2

And it hurts the community because it masks the extent of the problem.

5

Journeyman Geek

I don't think we can do much more than take the rough edges off.

George Stocker

So it may feel good but it’s at best a bad move for everyone involved.

It prolongs the collapse and the introspection needed to actually solve the problem.

Journeyman Geek

I don't agree with the "let it all burn down" yet

but if I did, I'd quit as a mod again.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Well, you could do a lot of damage as a mod if you wished.

Even without doing anything explicit enough to get your diamond removed.

Journeyman Geek

1:35 AM

@TheforestofReinstateMonica eh, no.

George Stocker

Forests burn down, they grow back stronger.

Sorry Forest.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

:p

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker sometimes they do. Sometimes they just end up a wasteland.

George Stocker

But you don’t solve anything by putting out the brush fires, that just makes the inevitable Forest fire worse

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Well ferns will always grow.

George Stocker

1:36 AM

Any typos from here on out are the rum/eggnog plus me typing on my phone

Before it was just the phone

Journeyman Geek

Mine are mostly me :D

I'm sober and have a nice keyboard to hand.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

I'm high but my typing is fine. Probably in part because I have a good mechanical keyboard.

George Stocker

@TheforestofReinstateMonica is that what “Forest” alludes to?

The forest of Reinstate Monica

No. My name has a much more obscure origin that I'll always keep to myself. :p

But I do like the observation.

user206222

How "Good Intent" Undermines Diversity and Inclusion, Annalee, The Bias Blog

The forest of Reinstate Monica

1:40 AM

A blog called "The Bias Blog" sounds like it might have its share of bias!

user206222

I'm curious, why is that your first reaction?

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Because I like pointing out potential sources of irony.

Seriously though, it's because psychological studies and sociology have such a low reproducibility rate (~40%?) that I don't think kindly of them as sciences, and most people talking about sociopolitical implications of biases heavily base their arguments off of such poorly done soft science.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza after a month? With people at each others throats? I still think trying to assume good intent is the only way I'm not calling for people to get fired, and suspending more people than I have :/

Disrupted status quos are tiring, and I don't see anything good coming out of all this yet

user206222

@Theforest I would encourage you to read the article. Your comment is not at all related to its content.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@Aza That's true. As I said, I like pointing out potential sources of irony. Wasn't meant to be more than an off-hand comment.

Journeyman Geek

1:44 AM

> Fred insists this wasn’t fair, and Alicia owes him an apology, because he didn’t mean to step on her foot, and she made him feel bad. Your code of conduct says people should “assume good intent,” and Fred is lodging a complaint that Alicia failed to do that.

The foot stepping happened. The pain happened. If Fred did it on purpose he's a dick. If he didn't do it on purpose, and he hurt someone he should feel bad cause he caused hurt....

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Ew, skimmed it. Don't want to keep reading.

Journeyman Geek

There's no "always" there :/

Else I wouldn't kick @TheforestofReinstateMonica at all :D

The forest of Reinstate Monica

It's one of those blog posts from upper-class privileged white people talking about how sad they are about their little 1st world problems.

@JourneymanGeek "Always" where?

Journeyman Geek

in assume good intent.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

oh lol

Well the last time you kicked me, I had no bad intent.

Journeyman Geek

1:46 AM

If someone demonstrates bad intent, or at least the inability to understand where they cause hurt, that's different

The forest of Reinstate Monica

As I said, I didn't know that the issue you had was with a particular word, so I misunderstood.

Journeyman Geek

It was the concept more broadly.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

The word, the concept behind the word. You know what I mean.

Point is, I thought you were upset because you believed I was comparing panic attacks to you-know-what. When I tried to explain what I actually meant, you kicked me. Only then I realized that the issue was the word itself (or the concept behind the word, whatever), since it was the only commonality between the two comments.

Journeyman Geek

And its amazing how many of these issues would be caused by realising "I caused hurt, I should step back, and damn, I''m an idiot" over "Please explain how exactly my stepping on your foot hurt? Which bone broke? Can you show a receipt for your shoes, let me try again to make sure I understand how it hurt"

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek Unfortunately, when I did that, you kicked me. :D

Without warning of course, in spite of your constant affirmations that you always warn.

But that's neither here nor there.

Journeyman Geek

1:51 AM

@TheforestofReinstateMonica See this happens routinely

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek Yup. It's a communications error between someone who has problem understanding certain English terminology, and someone who takes English literally.

It's become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Journeyman Geek

Now you stepped on my foot (figuritvely). I said it hurt. You stepped on it again. I happened to have a steel toed boot and kicked your rear.

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Not a lot of people do this, right now. And you can't really push 'em to, even if standing guidance is helpful. So any inclusive code of conduct... needs to be resilient to those cases. It's not as complicated as it seems, but it's a different paradigm about how CoCs are designed.

Journeyman Geek

If you hadn't stepped on it, I wouldn't needed to kick.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek No, I asked why that hurt, and you kicked me for mentioning the event.

user206222

1:52 AM

I guess that's why I linked that article here.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

I said I only stepped on it by mistake, and lightly, and you kicked me for that. :p

Journeyman Geek

@Aza Our code of conduct has proven non resilient, and has back fired terribly

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek Codes of conduct tend to do that pretty regularly.

Journeyman Geek

also, I might have a certain attachment to assume good intent, since I personally feel we need that in the current absolutely horrible environment meta is right now

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Oh, yeah. The Stack CoC has some deep, structural issues. I 100% believe it.

Journeyman Geek

1:54 AM

@Aza at this point, the community does

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Usually, a CoC is either introduced when a community is already broken, or it's introduced and it is used as fuel to break the community. A good community does not need one. A bad community will misuse one. Hell, just a few minutes ago I saw someone rule-lawyer our CoC in a comment!

user206222

I think most people know something is broken, but not a lot of people are really up for thinking about how power differentials affect a CoC, because of the level of introspection it demands. "Assume good intent" only operates consistently when all people in a conversation have the same level of influence.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

It's because assuming good intent is an easy, but ineffective, catch-all solution.

user206222

Same-level is not true, when certain users are marginalized in a broader society, no matter how egalitarian the design of a system.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Social interaction is much more nuanced.

@Aza Egalitarianism is in part responsible for some of the issues, if by egalitarianism you are referring to the equality of outcome school of thought.

user206222

1:58 AM

No, that's not what I'm referring to.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

ok

Journeyman Geek

@Aza When folks are pretty much at each others throat all the time - for folks with actual good intent and bad execution, its useful

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek Life isn't so binary. Good intent is not an all or nothing thing.

Journeyman Geek

for the folks who are not. Sod them. if they're here to cause trouble, we can handle that. But there's gotta be an actual way to work towards common goals, which I don't see otherwise.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

E.g. my intent here is generally good, but I do indeed like pushing buttons from time to time.

Journeyman Geek

2:00 AM

So I might disagree with specific actions by the company

The forest of Reinstate Monica

So you can't deal with me either by assuming 100% good intent, nor assuming 100% bad intent.

The same is true with most people.

Journeyman Geek

If I assume they were done with the intent to cause chaos

I can't talk to those people.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

People whose intent is purely to cause chaos are quite rare.

Usually even the most hardened, dedicated trolls are also solid contributors.

Journeyman Geek

Oh, I've seen a few.

user206222

There are a lot of different conversations this could become.

user206222

2:02 AM

I'm not sure I'm really up for any of them.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Oh sure so have I. I just mean that what most people consider pure trolls are not.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza Simple thing is - there had to have been follow up

there wasn't

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@Aza I don't think discussions about trolling have been particularly dangerous.

Journeyman Geek

and MSE's currently worse off with no real end in sight.

user206222

@TheforestofReinstateMonica Not for you.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

2:03 AM

@Aza Who would add fire to it, though?

It's just sociology.

Journeyman Geek

The ones here mainly to cause chaos are easy :D

Just keep suspending them till they learn or can't come back.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Those are low-quality trolls usually. They're idiots.

SE does not have many high-quality or dedicated trolls.

user206222

@JourneymanGeek It has little to do with what Stack Exchange does or doesn't do, to be honest. This is, at its core, a community issue. Stack Exchange may have done some not-great things, but these problems won't vanish if Stack suddenly becomes somehow ideologically consistent.

Journeyman Geek

@TheforestofReinstateMonica we're attracting a whole bunch of those.

@Aza Its totally on SE's actions.

2

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek Well better attract them than the shitposters who post drive-by racial slurs.

Journeyman Geek

2:06 AM

@TheforestofReinstateMonica eh, nuke em all. No one will miss them

@Aza there has been no follow up after these. Its basically throw a grenade and run away.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek Not always as cut-and-dry. Remember the Spongebob post? :P

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Do you sincerely see no community issue?

The forest of Reinstate Monica

(All community issues so far have been created by management)

Journeyman Geek

@Aza - more that the community issues have been made worse not better

user206222

I don't think that's universally true.

Journeyman Geek

2:07 AM

and that we're losing people that were allegedly supposed to be better protected from this

@Aza I'm seeing a lot of the crap from this. I'm seeing the flags and the drama.

user206222

To be clear: it's not Stack that's causing those people to be lost.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

I mean, there are obviously a few problems here and there with the community, but nothing big.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza Stack's making a fertile environment for it, by well meaning (at best), but completely clueless actions

user206222

Yes and no.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Stack as in the chat system? Or the Q&A sites?

Journeyman Geek

2:09 AM

I mean, do you see SE being a safer place now?

user206222

At some point, you have to ask: why are you expecting better of Stack, and not of the users around you?

user206222

To say it's on Stack is to shift blame from the system created by users, to the executive authority of Stack Exchange for ever having made people realize there's an issue.

Journeyman Geek

oh god.

I'm going to disagree

The forest of Reinstate Monica

I hate to say it, but I agree with Journey on this. Stack Exchange holds the majority share of the blame.

Journeyman Geek

I'm not sure how I can do so in a polite and compassionate way though, so I will leave it at that.

user206222

2:10 AM

@JourneymanGeek SE is not any more or less safe than it was before. What's changed is how transparent the community is about the intent toward unsafety.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

I don't get how SE is unsafe in the least.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza And... here's another place where I'd disagree but I can't do so in a way I'm happy with.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

I've never had to wear a bulletproof vest here, nor have I had to breath through a wet cloth.

Hell, I haven't even had to carry a gun on SE!

Journeyman Geek

I'd say we've attracted a lot of folks who contributed to the unsafety I've never seen before. We gave them a platform that is pretty hard to shut down. We've lost a lot of important voices from the folks that were supposed to be protected.

I'm tired of folks happy to see stuff burn down cause "it's always been that bad, no one saw it ... so its ok"

The forest of Reinstate Monica

I get what you mean though, but I disagree that this place is unsafe either way. There are no dangerous trolls. There are no severe security problems. It's not Encyclopedia Dramatica.

No one is going to track you down for the lulz and swat you.

The worst that can happen is someone writes a snarky comment.

An unsafe community is one where you need to protect your powerword (real name).

Journeyman Geek

2:13 AM

@TheforestofReinstateMonica actually... I've probably pissed off a few people who would have tried that if I was in the US

user206222

@JourneymanGeek A lot of the harm recently done to marginalized users has been done by regular users; people just don't know how to recognize it.

2

Journeyman Geek

@Aza what's happening now magnifies the harm

user206222

Some of the harm has been done by new users attracted to the discussion, but they're feeding on what's already here.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@JourneymanGeek Well, moderators are a different discussion.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza and.. what's the endgame?

let things keep burning?

user206222

2:14 AM

Endgame, for who?

The forest of Reinstate Monica

@Aza What users are marginalized here? I've never marginalized someone on SE, unless you count refusing to answer a really bad homework question. I know no one who has.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza that's also a good question

How do you see this helping marginalised people?

they're just all going to leave

user206222

@JourneymanGeek I mean with respect to your question. You ask me what's the endgame; whose endgame?

Journeyman Geek

People like me would probably burn out without things getting better.

And we are kinda fighting hard to try to help

but there's literally too much to do

So the status quo is disrupted

Now what?

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Bring the pitchforks?

Journeyman Geek

2:16 AM

and I don't mean lovely posts by ivory tower intellectuals over ideal stuff

I mean "How do we salvage the situation for the people we are supposed to be helping?"

Cause I think stack's overwhelmed and has no idea what to do

I think the MSE mods are to a significant level too

user206222

I mean, you're basically asking me to lay out a manifesto for an ideal society.

Journeyman Geek

No, I'm saying practically "Now what?"

no manifestos

just "How the hell do we fix this?"

Cause we have lots of lovely manifestos right now

user206222

Oh, I have ideas but I won't share 'em here. I'm essentially gone, I haven't touched this place in weeks.

user206222

I've kind of realized that the only reason I was ever okay participating here was because I could pretend, for a while, that the people I was working with weren't... like this.

Journeyman Geek

So're a lot of people. And some who were never here.

user206222

2:19 AM

Now I can't pretend.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

I am completely lost. I utterly fail to see why you have such issues with the community.

Journeyman Geek

And here's something I noticed.

I've been in a few communities that broke away from SE due to previous... issues

nearly all somehow still keep track.

And SE kinda tends to have that effect of bitter breakups of folks unhappy with things :/

user206222

The process that drives me away isn't anything that's really being... talked about, actively, by anyone. It's as straightforward as: I can't pretend, anymore. So for me, right now, this is a question of "can I help people who will make better communities in the future?" And, "what can I learn for communities I get to make in the future?"

user206222

I mean, groups that break away from a larger main group tend to do so because of a set of specific ideological differences. It's not surprising those groups stick together better.

user206222

They already have a root of ideology to share. Most people don't bother to inspect what that root actually contains, though. Or, sincerely ask whether it's good. They've already assumed it is.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

2:22 AM

SE is not a place with a large amount of community politics and "root ideologies".

Journeyman Geek

@Aza and more also folks still seem to be unable to let go of the place, even in bitter circumstances.

user206222

Sometimes that's okay, sometimes it isn't. I can't really assess personally without knowing more specifically what communities to talk about.

user206222

The people who can't let go of the place also have a specific set of ideological values, and it's a much more surreptitious set.

user206222

Not all, obviously. But it's also worth inspecting who is going to stay and what about those people encourages them to; not just who is going to leave.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

I think you're looking too deeply into it.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

3:49 AM

-8

Q: How do I better protect myself on Stack Exchange?

This is a FAQ proposal. Its aim is to advise and better protect users across the Stack Exchange network but especially to users who can be as young as 13. It is hoped that this guide will help users make informed choices about their safety online and what to do if they happen to witness abusive b...

I don't like some of the answers and comments here. Some of them say that it's enough to avoid revealing personal information, but given that you can get IP addresses through embedded images, it doesn't take much social engineering to convince someone that you know the school they go to.

You could then either find a plethora of information about them online or through various other sources, or use social engineering armed with that knowledge to get more information directly.

... now I kind of want to see just how easy it is to do that for the average kid on SE

But I have the nagging feeling that it would get me suspended if I did so.

Fwiw, although children who visit SE are not a representative sample, I have managed to do this a number of times with nothing but IP address and a little luck, so anecdotally, it's not impossible.

"How do I protect from a dedicated troll/hacker/whatever" has no easy answer on SE.

LinkBerest

4:14 AM

Oct 25 at 18:10, by LinkBerest

@Cerbrus yeah, I noticed your GDPR request because I had also put in one (due to the increasing number of death threat/threats of violence I have gotten that link to Meta.SE - this is part of just being openly Jewish but there is an increase and many actually link to posts/comments on Meta which is new) and recieved the same message (assuming it was because I was in the US): so I'm interested, to put it mildly, in what they have to say

^ you mean like I had to do because of this?

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Are you referring to those pseudocode trolling events?

LinkBerest

I'm referring to unsafe

The forest of Reinstate Monica

I assume that is what you're referring to. Those were obviously not serious.

They were meant to get a rise out of someone, not an actual threat of violence.

LinkBerest

SE is just not as safe and I've had to change my username from my real name (luckily for me its only been my public email that has been effected but getting more death threats daily which link to posts on SE is not fun and dos not add to my idea of safe)

not on SE to my actual email referencing SE posts/comments I've made

To me, this type of linking says: SE is no longer safe enough for my real name

yes, I've been on Twitch too

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Is Twitch like that?

I was talking more about old-school troll communities.

LinkBerest

4:20 AM

with the swatting? yeah

The forest of Reinstate Monica

wow

Ok then I guess Twitch would also count as unsafe.

But has anyone ever been swatted on SE?

Or even been put on the list to receive 200 free bibles?

LinkBerest

yes (or similar if we are counting false police reports about 2 weeks ago - hence why I haven't been on SE)

The forest of Reinstate Monica

huh

LinkBerest

do not assume safety because you are safe, others had put more of themselves into this site (or sites) and have been burned because of it lately

3

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Confirmed cases? Well, I officially retract my statement of SE not being unsafe.

LinkBerest

4:23 AM

....yeah, when a detective knocks on your door I guess we can call that confirmed

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Oh, I thought you meant true swatting. Well, false police reports are still nasty.

LinkBerest

I'm out, I have a reputation I'm just building as a teacher and a family. SE is not worth it

The forest of Reinstate Monica

But swatting can get you killed.

But yeah, false police reports against someone on SE is a scummy thing to do.

LinkBerest

so can neo-nazi's finding out where you are (and lets not exclude all the other horrible groups that are targeting people in the lavender community itself -- as my own situation is more collateral damage)

not worth it anymore

The forest of Reinstate Monica

From my experience with those communities, the neo-nazis and edgy skinheads are usually the least dangerous people. The most they do is try to spread rumors and make edgy threats.

They occasionally do, however, get people fired from their jobs.

But yes, using your real name is not ideal anywhere on the internet. And as I mentioned earlier, if you really care about safety, use Tor or at least some proxy so it's not so easy to find out your town.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

6:21 AM

What spammer thought "Bangalore Escorts offerings for Elite and wealthy individual" was an appropriate promotional post for Security.SE? O_o

It's the first time I saw spam there that wasn't for fraudulent "hacking services" in a while.

Journeyman Geek

That's common actually

Smokey usually hammers that fast.

The forest of Reinstate Monica

Yeah it was obliterated almost instantly.

I'm surprised though that their website actually uses proper English.

I used to troll spammers/scammers who posted things like that. I almost want to get back into it but it was so time consuming.

mag

7:40 AM

morning

I see the weekend and transcript have been interesting

@Aza I place the blame for that firmly on the company for one reason. They have unified direction (or at least the potential for that), while we as a community do not. None of us have any lever over any community members that act out on meta. Most of us don't have any tools to do anything whatsoever that isn't drowned out by the protest wave. If anyone needs to step up to getting this under control, it's SE because they hoarded all the ways to exert influence. Instead, they

threw a live handgrenade in the room and then just left and haven't come back. What impact can even 25 or so coordinated users have in the face of the size of this problem? it's like putting out a raging forest fire with a watering can.

Tinkeringbell

8:26 AM

@mag My weekend was mostly boring ;)

A good kind of boring though...

Tinkeringbell

8:48 AM

> At the Rotterdam office Network is unavailability.

I somehow guess network problems aren't their only problem...

Shadow The Princess Wizard

?

@SmokeDetector why

Tinkeringbell

Company e-mail ;)

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@Tinkeringbell oh wow lol. But why English and not Dutch?

(or German?)

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowThePrincessWizard Big company, can't assume everyone speaks Dutch these days.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

oh...

Tinkeringbell

8:51 AM

IIRC, there's some pretty international teams working at that office ;)

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@SmokeDetector f

oops

@SmokeDetector f

Ruud was rude, but not on that one.

@Tinkeringbell pretty men or pretty women? :P

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowThePrincessWizard I can only properly judge the men... some of those are pretty :)

Shadow The Princess Wizard

And international.... ;)

Tinkeringbell

You say that like it's a good thing? :P

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@Tinkeringbell of course! Diversity is good. Get to know new things. :)

Tinkeringbell

8:59 AM

Yes and no... ;) Having an international team can go horribly wrong or totally right... or anything in between. Communication issues and cultural differences can complicate A LOT

mag

all other things equal, a broad viewpoint and experience diversity in a team helps cover blind spots in design and decision making you wouldn't have otherwise been able to cover

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