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10:00 PM
My Christmas List:
Merge the metas
Modernize the close reasons
Throttle the comments
 
hm? what are we talking about? what close reason? where did we show whom what value?
@TravisJ how exactly do you wish to modernize close reasons?
 
@user1306322 They are currently working on tweaking the close reason banners and editing some of the existing messages.
 
why throttle comments?
 
How?
What?
 
@TravisJ why merge meta?
 
10:01 PM
I guess I assume people follow meta
 
care to form a detailed writeup of your propositions so we can talk about it? :p
 
people might follow meta, and not be interested in the same topics you are
 
@JourneymanGeek so we can split them later?
 
@TravisJ there's a bunch of really per site specific stuff on most metas
Main meta is in a funny place
 
Well, I have written extensively on these issues already, so to summarize.
Throttle: forces more actual answers, limits off topic comment debate
Merge: makes messages more powerful, keeps sites on topic
 
10:02 PM
offtopic comment debate where?
 
Per site would just be tag based in the merge
Dude, are you trolling me?
Everywhere.
 
@TravisJ after deleting about 500 comments in leass than a week...
I'd be so happy to turn off comments for a week or two.
 
I saw two people argue over where to semantically place a comma in a list of 3 things that have an and in the sentence for like 40 comments.
 
@TravisJ this is why I have a purge button
 
lol
yeah, but, your eyes man
 
10:03 PM
am i the only one who thinks throttling or disabling comments is not a good solution to any of the issues we're having?
 
I can only imagine what you have seen in the "I once saw in comment" section
 
@user1306322 You are not the only one.
It sounds like a horrible idea to me.
 
Plenty of users who love to only use comments dislike the idea.
 
Write an answer. Open yourself up to actual voting.
 
10:04 PM
The real solution is to make "move to chat" easier.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica well we could do that.
 
People write comments because they are hiding from downvotes on their obviously off topic remarks.
 
Actually that usually kills the conversation so...
 
Of course, that requires paying devs, and everyone knows SE can't find those.
@TravisJ Or... because their remarks are not answers and so would not be fit as an answer.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica eh, I'd actually say that SE's gotten stuff done on that front...
 
10:05 PM
Move to chat would cause a lot of problems when people are actually upset though. Chat gets out of hand when people get mad.
 
@TravisJ yup
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica Like I said, off topic.
Comments are for clarifications on the post. Not for extended debate.
 
@TravisJ If it's genuinely off-topic and unrelated to the question/answer, then delete it.
And it really depends on the site. Some are more lax with comments than others.
Especially on sites that may require extensive back-and-forth for clarification.
 
If you only generate comments that get deleted, you get throttled.
Then, we wont have to listen to all this blather :D
Want to paste your favorite go to quip on every question that meets xyz? Throttle ;)
 
@TravisJ So a chilling effect for anyone who posts a comment on an HNQ question, since their comment will inevitably be deleted as a result of everyone else getting into a debate and mods just mass-deleting comments? Results are never as clear as they seem. So now we have to apply a weight calculation based on popularity, making things even more confusing and complex.
 
10:07 PM
No, it would require thresholds
You would have to be clearly an outlier of comment deletion in order to hit the throttle
 
@TravisJ Oh, so like an answer ban?
 
Question throttle, yeah
Slowly takes effect
Requires actual statistical abuse
 
leaky bucket
 
what if the user never posts answers or questions, just comments
 
Not sure how that would relate.
I have to go.
<3
 
10:09 PM
oh you must have meant something else
 
@TravisJ I find those are never very accurate or useful.
Especially on small sites where the majority of answers are downvoted, yet the occasional upvote by some ignoramus on an HNQ answer results in resetting the counter.
 
pretty sure he only mentioned question throttle to say the comment throttle would be done similarly to it
not that they would be tied together
 
yea I got there later :p
one other point "against" a new site is "who's gonna pay for all this internet traffic and computer hardware" which I don't think is an absolutely insurmountable expense that a crowdfund or a couple well off developers can't put together
 
It's really not that expensive.
 
who's gonna run it
 
10:15 PM
maybe the site load times won't be as fantastic but otherwise I don't really see an issue there
 
who's gonna make the rules?
who's gonna ban the bad guys
 
If someone was genuinely serious about a new site and it looked like it had a real chance to gain a critical mass of users, I would be willing to host it for free (at a DC, not out of my house). It'd be Russian or Romanian so the relevant laws would be important, but it would be pretty fast.
 
@djsmiley2k-CoW elected users of course, somebody people already trust on SE at first, and then new users who join for the first time who rise up to the level of expectations one would have from a worthy moderator
that is also not a problem in my mind
 
Running a community site is best left to people with experience running communities.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica well - had to start somewhere
 
10:21 PM
It's not very hard if you have already done it before. The hardest part is gaining users, not dealing with trolls or bandwidth costs.
 
And every community is different
SO had Jeff and Joel as facepeople.
 
Indeed, but the experience transfers.
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica a lot of stuff dosen't
As I keep learning
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica yea this is why I don't get why people worry so much about technical aspects
and I want to dispel those worries!
 
@user1306322 cause people who build things love that
 
10:23 PM
to raise hope!
 
@JourneymanGeek Like what?
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica I suppose trust
 
Oh, I thought you meant experience with managing web communities.
 
I've had to do it twice already. Now have a third group of people to do it with on SE alone
 
10:23 PM
Yeah, trust needs to be individually built.
 
and lets say there's an SU clone
I would actually refrain from being a mod there until I'm familiar with the community
 
I've managed everything from programming / hacking communities to adult communities, and honestly it's all the same, modulo some interest-specific cultures and corresponding norms (and resulting rules).
 
@Shog9 I deleted nearly 100 of my comments by prioritizing posts having the highest number of my comments. Tomorrow's another day.
 
A Q&A site would not be much different, at least it my experience, from any other community.
 
10:26 PM
uhm
Well the way SE does it?
 
@canon thank
 
You rely more on meta and chat
 
SE is unique because it's so massive.
 
@user1306322 *I deleted...
 
I've only once had to run a site that's been able to saturate a 200/200 line.
 
10:26 PM
@canon that's hard. Almost all the posts have multiple comments ;p
-4
Q: Most have four, two have none, and more than one have eight. what am I?

Sanderson JenMost have four, two have none and more than one have eight? What am I?

can someone throw this a comment please?
 
what kinda comment
 
I don't have my auto comment scropt
@user1306322 folks who do it will know what I mean :D
 
ah ok I thought explain this is meta and not puzzles, but even then this is in need of improvement
 
@forest awww lol
 
@user1306322 a whole bunch of people have scripts for that
 
10:28 PM
@TheforestofReinstateMonica did it have images or just text?
 
@user1306322 The one that did saturate 200/200 was media-heavy, yes.
 
@JourneymanGeek should this actaully be part of core site functionality?
 
@user1306322 naw
its just a thing here
 
But most sites have some images, and they don't contribute too much to bandwidth.
 
I could just delete it but @ShadowThePrincessWizard gets grumpy when I don't
 
10:29 PM
Especially if you optimize them correctly (optipng does wonders, as do vector graphics).
 
I heard OptiPNG is a favored tool of network admins
 
eg let's get Shadow grumpy
 
It's not a very well known tool, surprisingly.
 
i've never heard of it
 
Sadly it's not very useful for user-submitted images.
 
10:30 PM
I suppose I hang around circles of knowledgeable people :p
 
@KevinB It optimizes PNG images, sometimes reducing size by 50% or more (occasionally 80%, usually more like 10-20%). It's an entirely lossless optimization, too.
The problem is that it uses a lot of CPU time to process a single image, so it won't be useful for user-submitted images (e.g. image hosts or image boards) without risking CPU over use.
 
why isn't it included in png?
(if it's basically a lossless more efficient png format?)
 
Because it involves doing brute-force adjustments to low-level compression parameters.
It uses the normal PNG format, but it decodes and reencodes it using a variety of different parameters until it finds the optimal combination. The only way to do that is with a brute force test. It can't really be done at encode time unless you're happy with it taking 30 seconds to encode a PNG.
 
I'd be fine if it was a background service that does this while I'm away from my desktop, but then it changes the file md5 hash and if I wanna look it up years later I'm out of luck lol
 
For desktops it doesn't really matter since you probably have a big hard drive.
For network bandwidth and latency, on the other hand, it really matters.
 
10:35 PM
yea that too is a reason to just not bother at home
 
huh... low level png optimisation was not a rabbit hole I was expecting to fall down into tonight
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Think of it like H.264 (and H.265 I guess) parameters. It takes someone very familiar with video encoding to find optimal encoding parameters that minimize size without affecting quality. For images, each test encoding is fast enough that it can be done with brute force.
 
this is arguably fascinating.
 
I am both arguing and fascinated!
 
Media encoding in general is a very interesting topic.
Getting better with ffmpeg has always been on my todo list.
Thankfully I know a lot of people in anime fansub groups who have amazing encoders. :P
But for some reason, they're all allergic to the superior H.265 codec...
 
10:38 PM
I don't know if h.265 will ever truly catch on.
 
Despite using the horrendous 10-bit encoding with H.264.
 
are there any popular open-source tools for stripping data appended to images to weed out abusers of image hosting as file hosting?
 
Rob
The quest for the smallest image resurfaces more frequently than sea mammals.
 
@user1306322 Not really possible, if it's done in a clever way. Otherwise yes I think imgur does.
 
well I noticed imgur does it, but I wonder how exactly/what they use
 
10:39 PM
@DavidA It already is. Netflix and the like use it. Really all that's left to do is wait for GPUs with hardware-accelerated H.265 encoding being common.
@user1306322 Pretty simple. Just strip everything past the end of the image data.
But then you've opened a steganography can of worms.
4chan used to encode various illegal pornographic material in images of sinks that way.
 
remember pngs where data is straight in the middle and if you open it as an image it looks fine except there is a pastel-colored line of pixels
 
They'd say "mods are asleep, post sinks!" and append data to the end of images of pretty sinks.
 
yea same ol same ol
 
11
Q: How to strip metadata from image files

Jeff[EDIT #1 by OP: Turns out this question is quite well answered by exiftool creator/maintainer Phil Harvey in a duplicate thread on the ExifTool Forum] [EDIT #2 by OP: From ExifTool FAQ: ExifTool is not guaranteed to remove metadata completely from a file when attempting to delete all metadata. S...

 
I don't think the file-in-the-middle is steganography per se
 
10:41 PM
That's not EXIF though.
@user1306322 Sure it is.
 
it's plainly there if you open it with any image viewer though, I thought steganography was supposed to be hidden from the eye to a reasonable extent :p
 
It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
Sometimes the purpose is nothing more than evading machine detection.
 
I suppose "glitch art" or "pixel sort" images can hide it from those who are familiar with this technique, it wouldn't be unexpected for the art style to include such lines...
I hope I didn't just ruin both subreddits for the person using them for these purposes lol
 
Rob
Like a two frame GIF, where the thumbnail is benign but after a while it flips to the true image (and doesn't loop).
 
10:45 PM
there's also allegedly a way to show static images with >256 colors in form of compliant animated gifs, but I've never seen a live example of that
 
@DavidA Well that sucks. At least some open alternatives are being developed.
I forget the name...
 
repacks by randos on torrents lol
 
Oh also, VP9 is really good.
AV1, that's the new one I was thinking of.
 
Rob
@user1306322 One (of many) search terms is: "Truecolor GIF".
 
@Rob Another thing is images which appear differently in thumbnails vs expanded.
Though that depends on each site's individual thumbnailing code.
 
10:49 PM
yea you can see people testing for thumbnail algos by posting various patterns of horizontal and vertical lines
 
Sometimes thumbnails are embedded in the image files themselves. I remember a case of one woman who took a NSFW pic of herself, cropped it to be SFW, but the original thumbnail was retained.
 
Happy Hour?
 
sir, this is a tavern!
 
Happy!
 
@DavidA Yeah but no one uses those anymore. They're legacy from the days when hardware was so slow that JPEG decoders took real time, and it would be inconceivable to decode each and every full-size image just to display a list of thumbnails. This was the days of Algorithmic vs Huffman coding.
(Algorithmic is superior but isn't often used because it used to take longer to decode. Also patents.)
 
10:53 PM
dope avatar, Cerberus!
 
Rob
Back in the days of dialup you could have a long image, with a surprise on the bottom. Since it took a couple of minutes to download a long image people would go make a coffee and return to their surprise.
 
Ugh software patents. (And I'm saying that having more than a dozen of the silly things).
 
Algorithm patents... Not even legal anywhere, but they're still used.
 
JPEG is... discrete cosine transform iirc.
 
Yes
On the downside (or upside, depending on your point of view), such patented or legacy functionality is often retained in image decoders because they need to adhere to the standards, and that results in a lot of really juicy security vulnerabilities, especially since the code is written once and forgotten.
 
10:56 PM
Yeah just throw a fuzzer at them and see what happens.
 
E.g. progressive JPEG, algorithmic encoding, lossless JPEG, etc.
Yep
The word "legacy" is synonymous with the word "vulnerable" to a security researcher.
cough x86 cough
 
GIFs (even the animated ones) are literally 30 years old. Kids these days are posting memes with them instead of something better and it kinda makes me sad.
 
GIFs are and were a terrible idea.
At least they're fairly simple, algorithm-wise, but APNG is better for animation.
And modern, well-optimized PNGs can rival GIFs for extremely simple icons.
It really only matters when the icon is so small that it's sub 500 bytes.
I hate the push for webm for looping animations... VP8/VP9 is too bloated for that purpose.
 
you see APNGs sometimes... and sometimes you don't coz browser doesn't support them lol
 
It's not like it's hard to add support. There are only four major browsers out there.
 
And one of them (Edge) is about to become based on another (Chromium).
 
For all you reverse engineering people.
 
@JourneymanGeek Chrome, Firefox, Edge, and Safari.
 
not all devices are going to update their browsers, but I'd wager 99% of them already support animated gifs
 
11:02 PM
uhm. I guess
 
@DavidA Neat. I think two DEF CONs ago, there was a talk about something like that.
For finding hidden instructions using the same fuzzing techniques on x86.
 
I wonder how IE usage compares to safari
and all the non mainstream browsers are chrome based anyway
 
@JourneymanGeek I spilled my tea :D
 
I remember when IDA only showed x86 assembly and you had to do your own decompilation.
 
*Chromium based
@DavidA That seems like it'll be very useful for finding bugs in emulators. :P
(Which are a drastically underlooked exploitation vector: See scarybeastsecurity's stuff)
Heh, reading that more I see that it's pointing out the same problem of different decoders reporting different instructions for the same data. It was mentioned in the talk about interesting anti-RE techniques that could be done by fooling the decoder used by malware analyzers.
The one thing that really stands out to me in that is just how horrible libbfd is doing.
 
11:06 PM
Infosec is so much more fun than quant stuff. The people ate much more fun too.
 
Not that that's unexpected. We all knew that since the whole strings debacle...
But it does make me happy about my patched objdump sandbox. :P
 
... is it happy hour yet?
 
I remember back when I disassembled much of a TI graphing calculator's ROM just because I got bored.
 
heh
Z80 ASM is pretty, isn't it?
60
Q: How to force disgruntled worker not to publicly disclose "GPL'ed code"

ThomaI'm currently the only HR worker at a medium sized engineering firm in Canada. There should normally be 2 additionally HR workers on-staff more senior than me, but one is on parental leave and the other position isn't currently filled, and I'm in over my head. We have a senior engineer, "Francis...

Ugh, I hate GPL license violators. :/
Anyone interesting in working with me to find out the product in question?
 
11:27 PM
@TheforestofReinstateMonica Are you aware of what happened with Arduino and how its founders split due to a disagreement over licensing?
 
@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog No. Is this recent?
 
No, it's from a few years ago (it started in 2010 but didn't boil up until 2014, and was eventually resolved in 2016).
 
ah
I don't use Arduino.
But that sounds more like a disagreement than a blatant violation as in the above-linked post.
(Which particularly disgusts me given the answers which are explicitly promoting illegal activity)
 
@TheforestofReinstateMonica This was kinda a violation.
 
11:29 PM
Basically, Arduino was founded by five Italians, each of whom already owned electronics companies themselves.
They had come together, and in the late 2000s upon finishing their work, had all together registered the "Arduino" trademark in the U.S.
But in 2010, they tried to register the trademark around the world, but couldn't because it was already registered in Italy. It was later discovered that one of the co-founders had secretly registered it in Italy without letting anyone know.
 
The co-founder in question assured them that "it was all just to protect their collective investment" and his company (Smart Projects) still continued to pay royalties to the collective organization.
Later, in 2014, the co-founder in question left his company, and its new CEO essentially broke off ties with the collective Arduino organization and refused to pay royalties. He also renamed the company "Arduino" and created a website mimicking the name, which didn't mention the original founders at all.
 
O_o
That's messed up.
 
This led to a weird situation for two years: the original Arduino organization could only sell products under the "Arduino" name in the U.S. (where they held the rights), and had to sell products under a different name (they chose "Genuino") elsewhere around the world (since "Arduino" formerly "Smart Projects" held the rights).
The original Arduino organization could do nothing against it as they had no legal standing.
That is, until, it later emerged that Smart Projects was selling their products in the U.S. and thus violating their trademark. They were sued, and eventually they settled with both firms agreeing to merge.
 
I've seen quite a few projects split up due to international bs like that.
 
11:41 PM
@MonicaCellio I just listened to your podcast. I didn't realize your last name sounded like "cello", rather than "sell".
 
Hm, would it count as "doxing" to try to find the GPL-volating company I referenced above?
Assuming I'm trying to find the company, not OP himself.
 
to what end?
 
To exercise my legal rights by requesting the GPLed code, and taking it to an attorney if denied.
OP discussed a situation where his boss is violating the license and trying to hide that fact.
I mean, the question title is essentially "How to force disgruntled worker to break the law".
 

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