Tavern on the Meta

12:00 AM

@enderland You want a list? I'll provide one... Be warned: each entry is described in the most passive-aggressive manner possible. In fact, it's not so much a list as it is a long rambling story with many asides and back-handed compliments.

@Mgetz it's 6 degrees here. But, the snow appears to have stopped falling for the moment.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 so just like one of your posts?🤣

enderland

12:18 AM

@Shog9 :-)

you betcha!

Shog9

uf

enderland

12:59 AM

@Shog9 da?

Shog9

ya, sure

enderland

:-)

Shog9

it's a good place to be

enderland

Indeed

Shog9

so many other places, you just can't get good lefse

Journeyman Geek

1:24 AM

......

@Shog9 I have a recipie for it on my fridge

my mom's been promising to try to make it for over a year

;p

Shog9

big flat fry pan that you can heat evenly is key

Journeyman Geek

Ah

We have our pancake griddles.

Shog9

also, mix the hot riced potatoes w/ the flour really well before adding wet

Journeyman Geek

A lefke is basically a potato chappati

Shog9

me, I really don't care to bite into a chunk of potato

Journeyman Geek

1:27 AM

@Shog9 my mom typically takes a lot of convincing before trying anything new if it wasn't her idea ;p

Shog9

growing up, lefse was the aunts' job. My sisters took over later. I guess my mom picked it up at some point, but not while I was home

bjb568

5:03 AM

I have been summoned!

Indeed my name starts with a lowercase letter.

user310756

5:34 AM

@WebHead - I suppose one could submit a query, in the same way that the assisted living facility did. I'm not sure how quickly they would respond. If I were a moderator, I'd be forming an independent moderator organization, and try to reach consensus to file a complaint with the state of NY. Also, I'd be looking for some consensus list of goals for a mediated settlement agreement, that would lay out a different structure, so that volunteer moderators have more job security, and more collective control over policies and procedures. I haven't figured out what to do about the payment aspect. — aparente001 13 mins ago

user310756

Anyone interested in pursuing this?

user310756

10

A: Is StackExchange in violation of New York labor law, in using volunteer moderators?

The answer would appear to be yes, it's in violation, according to the logic the state has published. I found a five-page 2009 guidance letter about volunteers and interns, which shows how individual situations should be analyzed, in some detail. The specific situation that the guidance lette...

Journeyman Geek

5:52 AM

sigh

Goes a little far does it not?

Rob

Suddenly everyone's a lawyer :)

Rob

And an accomplice, because by posting they agreed to the ToS.

Journeyman Geek

So here's a critical question here.

What are we actually trying to do

Rob

I'm about to make a coffee.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek how so?

Journeyman Geek

5:57 AM

Now, I'm all for getting Monica an apology

user310756

there's a gofundme being supported on the site to raise money for litigation against the company

Journeyman Geek

But this looks pretty much like "Lets just burn all the bridges

user310756

well it's not

Journeyman Geek

That's different. Hurt was done to an individual. Hopefully that hurt is fixed, and we can work on preventing things like this happening

Rob

More like build first, then burn.

Journeyman Geek

5:58 AM

If SE is in violation of New York labour law...

no. more. mods

user310756

@Rob ?

Rob

There was no defamation; so if the litigation does move forward... that's a good waste of $10,000 and time

user310756

@Rob a waste of raised money you mean?

Journeyman Geek

Probably some lawyer getting a few mods or ex mods together in a class action suit and making a mint

then... what?

Rob

How do?

user310756

5:59 AM

it doesn't necessarily require a lawyer to begin with

Rob

@Nobody Yes, and I'm assuming she's contributing. Plus SE's money

Rob

So

user310756

@Rob you think there wasn't defamation? I haven't read the news articles to be honest

user310756

@Rob I don't understand how build first then burn

Rob

@Nobody The only thing I've seen SE say was that she broke the CoC. That's not defamation, as it's not specific

user310756

6:00 AM

@JourneymanGeek for one momentm forget that it is me who has posted the question - pretend it's someone you highly respect

Rob

People can disagree that there was a violation, but that's a separate issue

user310756

@Rob yeh, I did wonder about that.

Rob

Build first = things were built. JG said no build just burn existing ones, rather than go the extra mile.

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody I would tell them they are being silly and burning bridges

Rob

As I mentioned elsewhere; mods do this all the time with suspensions. "For rule violations". That's not defamation either, even if they disagree that they broke any rules

user310756

6:01 AM

my advice to M was to apply for reinstatement, as they offered. Then if they refuse - seek legal advice. But I'm not a lawyer

Rob

Brb

user310756

@JourneymanGeek not necessarily. If the company should be paying people

user310756

@Rob true. Defamation is hard, as you have to prove loss of income.

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody None of the mods signed up for pay, or even any promise of future employment

user310756

@JourneymanGeek that's not the point, if what they are doing is actually illegal

Journeyman Geek

6:03 AM

@Nobody uhm. So... no more mods.

Rob

Moderators aren't doing anything that an employee would otherwise need to do

Journeyman Geek

Or SE moves its legal office to UK or Germany i guess

user310756

it's like the ToS - waiving the right to class action bla bla. None of that means anything. You can force people to sign contracts that are not legally binding

Rob

And as I commented, every user of the site is a volunteer.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek paid moderation

Rob

6:03 AM

Surely we can't expect every site to pay contributors? What about comments on a blog?

user310756

@JourneymanGeek that doesn't change anything

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody they claim they can't afford more CMs.

user310756

moving forward perhaps

user310756

@JourneymanGeek that's their problem

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody And ours

So here's a difficult thing

there's a certain amount of useful pressure

user310756

6:04 AM

@Rob this is different - it's a huge company - making money and actively trying to profit off the site

Journeyman Geek

It needs to be directed

user310756

@JourneymanGeek the site is currently being destroyed. :\

Journeyman Geek

And? How does it help build stuff back up again?

user310756

Anyway - I'm going to investigate this myself

user310756

@JourneymanGeek it makes the site fair and equitable in all ways

Journeyman Geek

6:06 AM

@Nobody I'm not doing this for the money

Rob

@Nobody The size of the company doesn't matter, though. Also, if I put ads on my blog, do I then need to pay everyone who comments?

Journeyman Geek

And this could mean no site.

Is this ok?

user310756

@Rob that's tangential to this - I cannot answer every use case

user310756

@JourneymanGeek currently - the site as it is, is not ok.

user310756

if the site is breaking the law, it should be addressed.

Catija

6:08 AM

@JourneymanGeek I'd certainly be disappointed if the entire network ceased to exist.

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody sigh

user310756

@JourneymanGeek don't act like that sigh

user310756

It's a legitimate argument and sighing acts like "here we go again" and is dismissive

user310756

it's not an intelligent response

Journeyman Geek

I appreciate the entusiasm, and when SE goes bankrupt from class action lawsuits from ex mods (some of who, are not nice people), I'm sure we shall all be happy when justice is done.

I can't think of any way this would do anything more than hurt the community

Catija

6:12 AM

@Nobody I mean... it'd put us out of business. There's 556 mods. That's... almost twice as many people as are currently on staff.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek "some of who, are not nice people" hm, not sure if that is necessary.

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody It is true

I am literally thinking of folks who would be happy to do so.

Catija

Well, one of them is literally in jail for child porn or something so... not a nice person at all.

user310756

@Catija are you sure it would put you out of business? Have you seen the financials for the business

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody That's basically 2x as many as total staff.

user310756

6:13 AM

@Catija yes, it was more it was an odd comment - like if 95% of mods are good people..

Catija

Um... you think we like having only 7 CMs?

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody I'd rather they spend money on getting more CMs than paying mods.

user310756

@Catija I think the company is out to make money and it is minimising wherever possible and is top heavy in many places. I think the CMs are treated like the mods (except you're paid)

user310756

I honestly think the company is misguided - I put it on youtube before all this blew up

Catija

I'm explicitly not allowed to talk about financial stuff but ... if we had to pay mods, we'd just shut down everything except SO.

user310756

6:16 AM

They are burning through money is some unnecessary places and not putting enough investment into where it counts i.e. the Q&A

user310756

@Catija if they

user310756

oops enter

Catija

I don't want to be snarky but you literally just asked me

3 mins ago, by Nobody

@Catija are you sure it would put you out of business? Have you seen the financials for the business

Journeyman Geek

Also

Catija

So... I'm gonna shoot it back at you...

user310756

6:17 AM

@Catija shoot it back at me how?

Journeyman Geek

A lot of mods can't and don't want to be employees, and we'd essentially be a remote content moderation sweatshop

user310756

we already are a remote content something

Catija

@Nobody I work here. I'm making educated guesses based on the information I do actually have... you are basing your guesses on what?

user310756

@Catija observations on what the CEO was asking in terms of getting another round of funding - watching the history of the site - the changes in employment - laying off employees - a flourish of new employment - "not having" $ to invest in improving the platform (feature requests) - then having money to make changes. IMHO they

user310756

oops enter

user310756

6:20 AM

they've employed too many superfluous people and not focused enough on what brings traffic - the Q&A site.

Catija

Traffic is an expense, not revenue.

Journeyman Geek

@Nobody We don't actually know how stuff is spread out

user310756

they will end up having more lay offs. Probably have a sacrificial lamb to account for all this drama

user310756

@Catija I'm aware of that and watching them try to capitalise on it has been painful and embarrasing at times.

user310756

they are desperately trying to milk it. It's obvious to anyone with eye balls

John Dvorak

6:21 AM

I wouldn't trust a message from a CEO to a business paper. Anything that isn't all sparkly in there means the actual state is so bad you can't even pretend it doesn't exist when talking about your financial future.

user310756

and in doing so have trodden on pretty much everyone who interfaces with the site publicly - CMs included.

user310756

@JohnDvorak I do not trust the CEO

user310756

I have a scathing lack of respect for SOInc the business

user310756

it's the CMs and the community I have cherished

Catija

... maybe I'm missing things but... wouldn't looking for more funding be an indicator that we ... aren't sustainable?

user310756

6:23 AM

@Catija oh yes indeed. It means the writing's on the wall. They have gotten so much money and are running through it.

Catija

?

That... doesn't make sense.

John Dvorak

Either SE isn't sustainable, or they introduced unacceptable advertising because of ... greed?

user310756

meaning - what is the future for the place

John Dvorak

I'm sure there's a fancy business word for focusing purely on your purse

user310756

@Catija it means - if they're going to destroy it - with mismanagement - maybe the people who helped get it there should be given something on the way out. I'm sure there'd be someone willing to buy out the site when the current owners go broke - the site will continue. The company maybe not

user310756

6:25 AM

@JohnDvorak the changes in the home page - the push on teams - employment - the teams and the new landing page of SO - looks like a standard ASP.NET layout.

John Dvorak

And the chronic brain drain

user310756

I've never spoken up before like this - I've tried to be supportive - but the company itself is incompetent. It's typical of the thousands of businesses that gets money and it pours through their hands as they haphazardly attempt to make money and employe the wrong people - do not have the right structure and have a glut of employment, without focusing on developing the thing that gets them the funding in the first place.

user310756

@JohnDvorak it's been exhausting.

user310756

I'm tired of trying to stand behind this business. What for?

user310756

The CMs - yes I stand behind them - they are not the business

user310756

6:28 AM

Watching this dumpster fire - as people put it- and how badly it's been handled - I am shaking my head.

user310756

There's no true leadership being shown from the higher echelons of the business

John Dvorak

Rob

We have tiny sites, like Community Building and new sites with few users/traffic - so if money was super tight new projects wouldn't be started, I doubt that the business is doomed to failure. If plans (proposals ,/ changes / ideas) put forth went through a private internal process similar to the public process for new site creation (at Area 51) they'd be better off.

John Dvorak

do they not have an internal process to vet any change through several people?

I don't think they're that bad

user310756

The more important question to ask here is whether a moderator actually qualifies as a "volunteer" under any laws. I doubt it does, even though we tend to attach the word volunteer to what they do. If it did, way larger companies than us would have run into problems by now, e.g. Steam which has the same concept of "volunteer moderators" on their forums. — animuson ♦ 56 mins ago

user310756

6:33 AM

@Rob the small sites would need to be governed by a separate entity

user310756

@JohnDvorak too many people - it's become a bureaucratic nightmare

Rob

They are not at the moment, why change it?

user310756

if it's illegal, they shouldn't be allowed to get away it

user310756

in all seriousness - if they are breaching employment laws - they shouldn't be doing that. It's actually irrelevant whether people think it's ok or not

Rob

Now this is a dumpster fire:

user310756

6:37 AM

that's really good artwork

Rob

Banksy

John Dvorak

Pro-tip: snow has negative nutritional value in every respect, including hydration.

Rob

The child thinks the falling ashes are snow, and catches them on the tongue, meanwhile a mile away huge factories smokestacks pollute the neighborhood (for many decades) to provide employment for the townsfolk.

John Dvorak

and that's excluding the effects of having your mouth wide open for extended periods in that kind of weather in the first place

Maybe the ash contains some fancy hallucinogens?