Tavern on the Meta

Gwideon

11:00 PM

No don’t nuke it

PM 2Ring

@Gwideon Rightio. And have a hug for having the courage to post that question in the first place.

Gwideon

Thanks

PM 2Ring

@DavidA See @JourneymanGeek's new question:

15

Q: Could we get some troll fencing up around meta?

While I'm a fan of "Presume good intent" it seems unusual to see folks whose entire interest here is in how the CoC is enforced - one rep users with no accounts elsewhere. I'm noticing some patterns already We're going to have to deal with a lot of folks thinking they're really clever. There's ...

David A

@PM2Ring Yep. Upvoted it pretty quickly.

Gwideon

Yeah I feel we need it

PM 2Ring

11:10 PM

I'm kind of amazed that people can even make accounts on MSE without having rep on at least one other site. On the per site metas you need 5 rep points on the main site to post to its meta.

Gwideon

Yeah

user102937

If someone has 5 rep from anywhere else, that would work.

Shadow

@PM2Ring well they should be able to report bugs, e.g. bug with log in

user102937

That just means people will use the bug tag to circumvent.

user102937

The only other thing that might work is a one-hour hold on new accounts. I dislike the idea of requiring earned rep on Meta first.

David A

11:13 PM

18

Q: Did Anyone Consider the Impact on Autistics of Recent Code of Conduct Changes?

Simple question: Did anyone consider the impact on autistics of recent code of conduct changes? From the answers I see on Official FAQ on gender pronouns and Code of Conduct changes it seems like a lot of people are unhappy because they can't follow the grammar rules they learned back in English...

discussion accessibility code-of-conduct

PM 2Ring

@Shadow They could do that via the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of every page. I assume that's visible if you're not logged in; at least, if you use the full site view, not the mobile view.

David A

Totally valid question and I've noticed the exact same things myself..

Shadow

@PM2Ring also some good answers here:

9

Q: Reputation requirements for posting on Meta Stack Exchange and per-site metas

To post on a per-site meta you need to have at least 5 reputation on the parent site. To post on Meta.SE you need to register, but you don't need to have any reputation on an SE site. Now, Meta.SO is both the meta for Stackoverflow and the meta for the whole network. But wouldn't the reasons to ...

discussion meta privileges per-site-meta

user102937

@DavidA This paragraph is pure gold:

user102937

> From where I sit, tech has gotten increasingly autistic-unfriendly over time. An awful lot of spokespeople for disadvantaged groups seem to think that autistic-friendly norms are keeping them out, and if only we'd all do small talk, wear fashionable clothes, and work in wide open spaces, we'd somehow reverse white male dominance in tech.

David A

11:15 PM

@RobertHarvey I actually agree with that 100%.

PM 2Ring

@Shadow Thanks, I'll give it a read.

David A

I was actually at a recruiting event for people on the autism spectrum representing my employer.

Zach Lipton

I was just looking at this comment from the same thread:
>I'm on the spectrum. I can't speak for anybody but myself. I'm leaving because of the CoC and other related things before it. It's not the pronouns. Its that the FAQ invites more personal info, even right into questions, making the site yet more social, vs just a technical crowdsourced repository. It's super distracting and uncomfortable.

Gwideon

I’m sorry

Zach Lipton

There's always been kind of a dichotomy between people who see the site as a "repository" and those who see it as a collection of human interactions to help solve problems

Shadow

11:17 PM

@ZachLipton you can onebox a comment, its timestamp is a permalink.

(faster than copy and paste whole comment :))

Zach Lipton

:)

@Gwideon from where I sit, you did absolutely nothing wrong. I'm sorry it went on so long before I started flagging

PM 2Ring

@Gwideon Please don't beat yourself up over this! You didn't do anything bad. Things just got out of hand. And we're more than happy to intervene when that happens.

4

David A

@Gwideon Don't worry. You're cool.

Lightness Races in Orbit

I'M BACK

Journeyman Geek

@LightnessRacesinOrbit darn it. I had it on good authority they were reputable ninja mine assassins

Lightness Races in Orbit

11:23 PM

@JourneymanGeek They were, but they were still no match for my prowess with a Bat'leth. Sorry.

@JourneymanGeek I hope you had a "no win, no fee" arrangement :(

PM 2Ring

@ZachLipton True, but IMHO it's a false dichotomy. Personally, I love the knowledge repository concept, and Jeff's original concept, expressed in posts like the Sand vs Pearls article. But at the same time, I've always believed in giving new OPs some friendly constructive criticism before close-voting or down-voting.

I'd much rather assist them with pulling their question into shape than just rejecting them & their question. Of course, I do expect them to show good intent and a genuine desire to learn, and to make some effort to follow site rules.

Lightness Races in Orbit

and too often they don't, and you point it out, and even when you're nice about it, you're villainous/elitist/whatever. twas ever thus

I've largely given up; it's immovable

if there was support from above it might be different but too many people just don't grok how that exact thing creates long-term rot

same thing put another way, too many literally just don't understand the fundamental reason the site was created

so, it's over :)

Journeyman Geek

@LightnessRacesinOrbit cash on delivery of course

Lightness Races in Orbit

can't believe how normalised it has become to demand free time and help from other people to solve your own personal problem and then to get stroppy when you aren't spoonfed everything you need, and then to be supported in your stroppiness because you're new and you deserve the world. ugh.

Zach Lipton

absolutely. I think it's a false dichotomy too, but I think there's always been a bit of a tension, one the welcome wagon efforts have really brought out, between people who see the site as a repository, where the people (askers and answers both, it's a two way street) putting the stuff into the repository is largely irrelevant and the focus is just on the quality of the content,

and those who see the site as a bit more of a communications medium where people speak to one another to help solve a problem

Lightness Races in Orbit

11:31 PM

I don't just mean here either. It's common throughout the entire industry

PM 2Ring

It does take more time & effort on my part, but I think it pays off. Eg, it's not unusual for OPs to actually thank me when I dupe-hammer their Python question. I try to find good dupe targets, and I normally add a short comment so it doesn't feel like I'm just some robot closing their question. And if necessary, I explain how to apply the info in the dupe target to their situation.

Lightness Races in Orbit

you volunteer your time, therefore you work for me and I do not have to in any way show due effort in advance out of respect for the time you're giving me. and I will be supported in this notion by the system and by the people who run it. and through that support I shall deem you: unwelcoming. even though you just fixed my problem for free, at time cost to yourself.

I mean, really :(

Zach Lipton

it's like, did you come here to "answer a programming question" or did you come here to "help someone program?" And conversely, did an asker come here to "ask how to solve a programing problem" or "get someone to teach me how to program?"

Lightness Races in Orbit

yarp

used to be easy enough to sum it up with the "teach a ~~man~~ person to fish" quote but I think we're past that now

I'm just going to get a beer and wait 40 years for the cycle to come back around

if an asteroid hasn't wiped us all out by then, ofc :)

David A

Now if some guy tells me to do his homework for him, I'm going to tell him to come back when he's had an attitude adjustment.

Lightness Races in Orbit

11:35 PM

I'm going to ignore ~~him~~ them

agh

Zach Lipton

it's easy to come here and get into "answer a programming question" mode and disregard the actual people at the other end of the screen. it's also easy to come here in "get someone to teach me how to program" mode and entirely wear out the people volunteering their time.

PM 2Ring

I think a big part of the problem, especially with the younger OPs learning programming in high school is that they really don't have the aptitude to be a coder, they don't really want to learn how to think like a programmer, they just want to know how to get good marks on their coding assignments, and how to pass the exam.

David A

@PM2Ring Ugh high school. Some of us were doing assembly coding in middle school.

Lightness Races in Orbit

Meanwhile. I had what I think is a healthy realisation today, which helps me when people around me are stressing me out, and I'm curious what you think of it. It's: "society is only one aspect of your life".

David A

You don't have to take in all of society's faults all the time.

If you do, you'll absolutely be overwhelmed.

PM 2Ring

11:42 PM

@DavidA Quite. I was onto my 3rd language by age 14 (IBM 360 mainframe assembler). In Australia, we don't really have the "middle school" terminology. We have 6 years of primary school (7 if you count kindergarten), then 6 years of secondary school, with the last 2 years optional. Most people who leave after the 4th year of high school then go into a technical college, traditionally intended for trades people.

Lightness Races in Orbit

exactly

I decided that might be a good mental aid to avoid that

might be easy to forget sometimes

Sklivvz

Why is this question's author shown as this:

HDE 226868

Post dissociation, I think.

PM 2Ring

@Sklivvz I suspect that the author requested to be disassociated from that question.

Sklivvz

Ah, wierdly the disassociation changed the question part but not the comments

until I refreshed

now the comments are also "anon"

PM 2Ring

11:51 PM

@Sklivvz Oh, good. Their name is still in that @mentions but I guess that's not so bad.

@LightnessRacesinOrbit That works for me. I can easily operate in "hermit mode" for several days in a row, although I tend to cheat these days by socialising online. ;) But humans are social animals, and plenty of people virtually define themselves through their social interactions.

Gwideon

Um is it Um my post

PM 2Ring

@Gwideon Um yes. :D It's now as anonymous as the SE system software can make it.

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